Vietnam is the war that communism won against capitalism

[Ho]

Tha first battle of the cold war was the Korean war.
In that war Cappies were able to mantain a (corrupt)government in the South still working nowadays.
The last armed battle in the cold war was Vietnam.
Because of the vientnamese determination, war was impossible to be won by the U$A.
Determination is the only way.

[Hayduke]

" Charlie " won man........America didnt claim they lost but they did......

This is what you get when you think you can take on the whole world........

[BOZG]

I've always been wondering this and no one I ask ever knows. Why did the Americans call the Vietcong 'Charlie'?

[deimos]

becasue in pilot language VC(vietcong) means Victor charlie

[RedRevolutionary87]

vietnam is one of the most horrible wars ever, the usa should be taken to war crimes for using agent orange, and should also pay to replant the lost forest from both agent orange and napalm

[sabre]

what is agent orange?

well communism might have emerged victorious, but look at vietnam now, its terrible

[Kunkelz]

Agent orange is a pesticede, the americans used to get rid off all the threeleaves that the vietcong used for cover (you can't bomb a soldier if you can't see him.)

But anyway i think that Vietnam is an sad example of how communism can fail if it's goal is a stalin look-a-like police state. Where harmless civillians 'disappere' when they only want to speak out theire vision of a good socialist country.

Freedom of speech is a neccesary thing, although it wouldn't feed my children.

[RedRevolutionary87]

i disagree, freedom of speech is a fake freedom anyway and its not important, it can only be abused by the capitalists sending people ito your country and spreading their own propaganda

[Guest1]

I'm gonna have to step back and act surprised by that comment. Freedom of speech is ESSENTIAL in a communist state. If the production is owned by the country, the government are the bosses, so if you can't speak out against them, it is state capitalism. Just as bad, just as profit-driven. Stalinism=Fascism in a hash brownie. Don't get high off of the illusion it gives of being communism, it's still shitty.

[Fires of History]

If anything, the Vietnam 'conflict' shows amerikkka's outrageous fear of Communism, and the pathetic failure known as the 'domino theory' that was widely believed mid-century.

The ruling elite's fear of Communism led them to send countless thousands to their death in their misguided support of the corrupt government of South Vietnam. Communism must be stopped at any cost, right?

Communism is very scary to the wealthy elite in the U$.

BOO!

[RedRevolutionary87]

so true, fear drives them, and in the proccess they kill millions, notice paralell between that and what stalin did?

[Communist Dominion]

i thought the Afgan/soviet war was the last cold war conflict, and stalin did the best thing that could be done for the nation at that time, and nationalism.........do you mean nationalism as in being nationalistic(loving your country) or nationalism as in ...................?

[Anarcho]

CD is correct, the Afghan war was the last Cold War conflict. The Soviet Union, in an attempt to gain more influence in the Middle East, tried to absorb/annex/whatever Afghanistan. The US, hoping to keep the Sov Union from gaining that foothold in the Middle East, fed the Mujihadin arms and intelligence.

In, I think, 1988, the Soviets pulled out, citing that the cost of keeping soldiers in the country was too expensive.


As for Vietnam, well, I think it depends on how you count a victory. There were tens, if not hundreds of thousands of casualties on the side of North Vietnam. The infrastructure of the country was obliterated, and only within the last 10 years or so has the economy and industry of Vietnam started to really show progress.

The US lost 52,000 soldiers, and gained a sense of shame and a dose of defeatism.

[Solzhenitsyn]

Agent Orange was not one herbicide but a 50/50 AI blend of two herbicides: 2,4,5-T (Agent Purple) and 2,4-D (Agent White). The problem is that 2,4,5-T is usually contaminated with a dioxin. There is a lot of debate as to how many medical problems are actually the result of Agent Orange or are the result of other things like PTSD or (possibly) nerve agents. There is not an identifiable cluster of symptoms common to all or even a majority of reported cases of AO exposure. Also the symptoms commonly alleged to be caused by AO do not have a significantly increased incidence rate in people with even higher verified exposure to 2,4,5-T (farmers and chemical plant workers). 2,4,5-T has since been banned but 2,4-D is probably the most widely used herbicide world-wide today.

Now on to Vietnam. The whole American strategy was ill-conceived and the execution was horribly botched. The U.S. was largely tied to a reactive strategy of responding to VC/NVA offensives. I cannot even begin to describe the blunder in it. America fought a war in which the strategy had no possiblility of success. It was a waste of American resources. What they should have done is built up several Armored Divisions with engineer support and just drove to Hanoi. The NVA had absolutely no anti-tank capabilities whatsoever beyond RPGs. They could have launched a massive amphibious assault on NV. Again, the NV had no navy to stop that either. Alternatively, they could have put an end to it by nuking Hanoi. Ah well, hindsight is always 20/20.

[deimos]

i agree with solz.I think they send no armored divissions because they feared that the ussr and china would fight for nv then.

[BOZG]

i thought the Afgan/soviet war was the last cold war conflict

Maybe Ho meant that it was the last direct war of the Cold War. The AmeriKKKans only funded the Afghans while they fought in Vietnam.

[Michael De Panama]

Ho, you seem to have a strong and focused interest in the Maoist distortion of communism. While it is true that Vietnam won the war, this was not a victory that us communists have won. We are fighting for a proletarian democratic revolution and a classless society, not some oppressive totalitarian communal system. I'm not just bluntly in favor of any form of command economy. Command economy, when run by a totalitarian state, is an example of the evils of the capitalist class antagonisms at their worst. The communists are in favor of democracy. Those who disagree are either ignorant capitalists, or have read too much Pravda.

[Kunkelz]

Red Revolutionairy, Why is freedom of speech not important in a real communist state?
If you don't want a dictatorship of the rich elite members of the communist party, you will need the people telling you freely what they desire, and they will have to make their own disissions on local niveau. Otherwise the rich and elite will seize control of the power and you will bee where you started your revolution.

Freedom of speech is essential for reaching these things!

[guerrillaradio]

Red - justify yourself in dismissing free speech. Without free speech we would not be able to post here, you silly fuck. If you do not believe in free speech then I want NOTHING more to do with you.

[Ho]

You are wrong once again michale since in some countries sucha as argentina, a dictatorial communism is needed in a first stage since, dominant sectors are completly against communism.
Moreover, the rates of ignorance in argentina are so high that most people do not know what a system is.
So, before equality and education a dictatrial style government is needed.
With time, when the nation evolves, that dicatatorial style can be ended.

[Ernest Everhard]

I like the way Ho thinks:

Dictatorships are needed because people don't like communism.

They don't like communism because they're stupid or are victim to what he calls "high rates of ignorance."

Perhaps Ho, people don't want communism for other reasons? Think you can come up with any?

[deimos]

i think we should inform the people before a revolution.We should inform, them about the advantages of communism.Then a dictatorship isn't needed.

[Ernest Everhard]

what if they categorically reject communism, as they've tended to throughout history. What then?

[Tkinter1]

In war, No matter what convention or what "rules" the civilians and nations beleive they should follow, there is no rules in war. As someone said, Its KILL or be KILLED. and we didnt lose in vietnam we won more battles then we lost. We pulled out because we were loosing to many lives, and it wasnt going anywhere. Also the american people werent behind it. Its not like they said surrender or die and we pussied out. It was more like we dont care enough to fight anymore.

on another topic....
Posted on 1:47 pm on April 25, 2002
Red - justify yourself in dismissing free speech. Without free speech we would not be able to post here, you silly fuck. If you do not believe in free speech then I want NOTHING more to do with you.

I have to say red, i whole heartly agree with him

[Capitalist Imperial]

In vietnam, american's fought with 1 hand tied behind their back, most of our battles were victories, anyway. We were just winning battles and occupying territory that did not matter. If we had proceeded north, we would have decimated the NV, we just decided to stop wasting our time as the return on our efforts was not materializing. That was lucky for the NVA, who already lost at least 10 X the men the US lost Our weapons and tactics were effective, the management of our progress in the war was poor, though. Keep in mind, though, that the soviets and chinese were advising the vietnamese, just as we were advising mujahadeen in afghanistan. The US was fighting a well populated, well trained army with soviet weapons, the soviets were fighting a few loosly organized rebels. The soviets loss in afghanistan, though, was much more devastating the the USSR than the vietnam conflict was to the USA. The US lost about 55k young men (tragic), but did not suffer a real economic, political, industrial, or even military hardware loss. The soviet defeat in afghanistan was an early and major factor in the collapse of the soviet empire. The last battle of the cold war was afghanistan, where US backed mujahadeen rebels defeated a super-power, sending it home to a crumbling empire!!! The USA took a little hit in pride in vietnam, but that is about it. We reddemed ourselves in the gulf, and are going much better in afghanistan than the soviets did. We have already replaced the afghanistan government, something the USSR could not do!!

[Xvall]

Yup Capitalist..
I guess those good ol' American boys missed out on killing all those twelve year old girls in the Vietcong. Oh well, maybe you can shoot some children in Iraq when the U.S invades it!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Give me a break, drake, that is propoganda. Most of the innocents killed in vietnam were due to VC and NVA using them as shields.

[Tkinter1]

I guess you forgot drake. No rules in war. its either kill or be killed. which would you choose? you think those soldiers wanted to kill children? FUCK YOU if you say yes. I have an uncle who went through post dramatic stress because he killed someone who looked real young! don't pretend like you know what your talking about, or asm if you were actaully there.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 11:25 pm on June 4, 2002)

[Xvall]

I'm not yelling at the soldiers, I know most of them Didn't want to kill children. But I'm saying, there are so many people who think the war should have continued, which I disagree with. As far as CI is concerned, every word of truth spoken from a non-right winger is 'propoganda'. It doesn't matter how or why, but American forces did kill Children, and not nececarrily the ones in the military. My dad's best friend was in Vietnam. Unfortunately, his vietnam 'ally' got him hooked on heroin, and now he's dead.

[Tkinter1]

Your dad got himself hooked on heroin because he had succumb to peer pressure. i doubt his ally slipt a little in his drink. but thats a good communist statement, blamming the worngs in the world on something else.

Not saying that your fathers death isnt sad or trajic though.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 11:41 pm on June 4, 2002)

[Xvall]

My Dad's friend.. Not my dad...
However, if so.. Then a LOT of people in Vietnam were subject to 'peer pressure'. I'm just upset because his life got wasted. Weather or not he CHOSE to take the heroin, the guy was drafted to fight a war for a diffirent country, and now, because of his little field trip, he's dead..

[Capitalist Imperial]

The on behalf of people of the United States I appreciate his sacrifice and honor his memory.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Collateral damage occurs in all wars. How many innocent afghanis did the soviets kill?
The person credited with directly and intentionally killing the most innocent civilians ever was joseph stalin!!!