Who Che was

[Falange]

No Robin Hood

Thursday, October 16, 1997; Page A18
The Washington Post

IN LIFE, Ernesto "Che" Guevara was, after his success in helping Fidel Castro make the Cuban revolution, a failure. The other would-be revolutions embraced by this Argentine-born ideologue crumbled. But in death he blossomed as a symbol of youthful daring and utopian aspiration in a global movement -- communism -- that came to be completely discredited yet survives in Cuba and a few other countries and in the minds of a diaspora of incurable romantics and unrepentant commissars.
Some of his remains, found in a secret Bolivian grave and returned to Cuba last July, are at the center of Havana's current commemoration of the "30th Anniversary of the Death in Combat of the Heroic Guerrilla and His Comrades."
A country chooses its own heroes. Yet it was not "Cuba," in the sense of an entity representing an inarguably valid popular will, that installed Che Guevara in his adopted country's pantheon. It was a self- appointed Marxist elite, which first found a use for him as a guerrilla leader making and exporting revolution and then found further use for him as a fixture of
state propaganda.
For that latter role, he had just the right attributes, being glamorous, audacious, given to spouting idealistic slogans, self-sacrificing, young (39 when he died in 1967) and -- perhaps best of all -- dead and hence no threat to the ruling circles.
He was also something else: a killer who executed "traitors" in his own ranks and boasted of winning peasant support by "planned terror," a believer "in the revolution" who gave a gloss of intellectuality and social justice to the pursuit of single-party power, and a man who hated his political enemies and thereby felt empowered to destroy them. It seems a
just irony that this man who claimed to be "with the people" finally was turned in to the Bolivian army by the very peasants in whose name he was attempting a revolution.
All this might be no more than a historical footnote but for the fact that the Cuban regime Che Guevara served is still in power and still using him for its own anti-democratic ends. Indeed, his simultaneous success as a contemporary pop icon seems to be bestowing on him a good deal more than the fabled 15 minutes in the public eye.
A pity, then, that he is not seem more widely and clearly for what he was: not the Marxist Robin Hood of myth but someone who did his country, and not only his country, much harm.

[RedRevolutionary87]

that is fuckin idiotic! all true marxists should believe that it is ok to kill the traitors of the revolution. and he brought no harm to cuba, actualy made it better, i said it in other posts and so did everyone else, you all kno the positive changes in cuba since batista. typical american journalism; ignorant, arogant and go on for hours talking about things they dont really understand

[BatistaNationalista]

Che ruined cuba.

[Hayduke]

Quote: from BatistaNationalista on 7:57 pm on April 21, 2002
Che ruined cuba.

Well good arguments Batista.....

Bout the article in a revolution there can be no room for traitors at all, so death would be the only solution cause they know your strategy and everything. Just another stupid thing to get che down.......come up with something good if ya wanna try that....

[PaulDavidHewson]

Why is it alright to kill everyone you think is a traitor to the revolution?

Those people don't get a fair trial, they just get shot on suspicion.

And how did Che make Cuba better?
He became director of the national bank while he knew Nothing about banking.

He spoke out against the USA(which is ok, because Cuba was fed up with the USA), but he also spoke out against the USSR which Castro didn't like.
Castro's henchmen were also appaled to see a argentinian speak out in the name of Cuba.

He thought that the USSR were traitors for giving in to the USA's demands by removing those missile bases.

Yes, I will admit that Che was probably a good soldier and leader during the revolution and he was a man with a vision, but you cannot deny that most things he tried to do was a total failure.

He fled from Africa under a false identity and after that he died in Bolivia.

Castro was the man with the masterplan, Che was not.

[Hayduke]

Your starting a revolution and it comes up that one of your men is a traitor.....whatya gonna do let him live one more day and risk your entire plan or shoot and move on. Its not bout fair or not its bout tactics....

And almost everything he did was a failure ?
A made communism come into Cuba, became direcotr of the national bank wich went extremely well, was a wonderfull docotr who helped alot of natives in America and only in Bolivia it went wrong. Sounds like a pretty succesfull life to me.

[PaulDavidHewson]

There is no doubt that Che has good advisors.

He knew jack-shit about banking, he became bank director because the needed someone to talk to foreign representatives and since Che was an able spokesman he was choses as the new bank director.

[Hayduke]

You know how sick that sounds Reminds me of neo nazi talk.

Hitler wasnt a bad person he just had a bad advisors........

Admitting something is difficult aint it Hewson ?

[PaulDavidHewson]

what???

I made that comment because I was replying to your comment:
"And almost everything he did was a failure ?
A made communism come into Cuba, became direcotr of the national bank wich went extremely well, was a wonderfull docotr who helped alot of natives in America and only in Bolivia it went wrong. Sounds like a pretty succesfull life to me. "

As I was saying, he knew nothing about banking and probably had good advisors telling him what to do.

How in what way and when is this neo-nazi talk and how can you compare this to the comment P. Fortuyn made??

[Hayduke]

I was talking bout the exact same thing you have no proof the advisors did all the work for che. But even without proof
you are coming with that example..........sounded as sick as Fortuyn's statement..........

I cannot stand someone who says almost everything che did was a failure and the only big thing was bolivia........

[Fires of History]

Why do people keep saying that Che "died" in Bolivia?

He didn't die, he was murdered through systematic CIA intervention.

The article says it well, "....dead and hence no threat to the ruling circles." Yes, Che was a threat. A voice for the people, and an overall success when it came to organizing the people against the elite. Sure, he had his faults, his humanity is the best part about him. At least, more than most leaders, he had a true compassion and vision for the people, not just the wealthy elite using the system for their self-centered ends.

This article is laughable at best, and part of the continual smear campaign against a man who loved the world, and the people, so much that he died trying to free them from capitali$tic oppression.

One really has to stop and wonder why so much energy would be put into discrediting such a man decades after his death. Perhaps his message continues to bother the elite? Perhaps his spirit is still so alive that continual measures are necessary to discredit a man who wanted nothing more than to free the majority of people from capitali$t tyranny of the wealthy elite.

Capitali$ts continue to fear the message of Communism. They use words like 'freedom,' 'democracy,' and 'liberty' as ways of justifying their assault on a philosophical system that seeks to place the people over the state, people over profits as the saying goes, and the people over the elite that use them for their own ends. From the Cold War, and especially Vietnam, we can see very clearly how the ruling, wealthy elite are willing to sacrifice innocent lives in fighting a philosophy that threatens the comfort they enjoy on the backs of the people.

“Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.” –Bertrand Russell

[PaulDavidHewson]

Fortyun's statement:
"Hitler was a genius, he only had the wrong advisors."


My statement:
"There is no doubt that Che has good advisors. "

Please explain to me again how this sounds sick and how you compare this to neo nazi talk from my part?

"You know how sick that sounds Reminds me of neo nazi talk.

Hitler wasnt a bad person he just had a bad advisors........

Admitting something is difficult aint it Hewson ? "

I don't think your comment is justified and i'm saddened by the fact that a fellow dutch man would insinuate this to me.
I thought we were debatting an issue instead of resorting blatently to unjust comparisations?

[Hayduke]

I was just saying it reminds me off that nazi talk from Fortuyn.
Just saying the succes he made in Cuba was not done by him but
his advisors is a stupid argument you dont know for sure.......
You came witht he statment "Yes, I will admit that Che was probably a good soldier and leader during the revolution and he was a man with a vision, but you cannot deny that most things he tried to do was a total failure. "
And I give your examples of succes he made but then you say to me its done by his advisors...........

It reminded me off someone who keeps saying Hitler is bad and then the other person comes witht he statement " hitler is not bad he just had wrong advisors "

I gave you examples of the succes by che and dont come with stupid arguments without proof bout his advisors.

And dont come wining bout being a fellow dutch man and everything " I don't think your comment is justified and i'm saddened by the fact that a fellow dutch man would insinuate this to me. "

Cause that has nothing to do with it......

[PaulDavidHewson]

You are so full of shit,

I gave examples of Che that put him in a more negative spotlight and then you came with examples that put Che in a positive spotlight.

"I gave you examples of the succes by che and dont come with stupid arguments without proof bout his advisors. "

Where's your proof? Where are your articles with figures and numbers? Don't attack me about not providing proog while in fact you don't supply any yourself.

[Moskitto]

Hitler sucked, The Nazis problem during WW2 was that they had Hitler on their side who they were so scared of that his doctors prescribed him things he didn't need till he became a drug addict, His generals were so scared of him they weren't telling him that the units he was ordering around no longer existed. He went for Stalingrad after the war on the Russian front became personal between him and Stalin. Even though he could have taken Moscow.

If Hitler had just left his generals to get on with it instead of forcing the best general to commit suicide just because he realised how much of a problem Hitler was to the war effort then Germany could have won the war.

(Edited by Moskitto at 6:23 pm on April 21, 2002)

[Hayduke]

Full of shit he :) ?



[Castro] Che was appointed to the Ministry of Industry. He was a very
methodical worker. He also held several other posts. Every time we needed
a serious man to hold an important office, Che would offer to do it. He
was appointed National Bank director during the days when those
technicians, who were specialized in banking but not politically
consistent, abandoned the country. It was then that he was appointed
president of the National Bank. Jokes and anecdotes followed this
appointment. People would say that we had asked for an economist and Che
had volunteered and when I asked him if he was an economist he said: No, I
am a communist.

We were just starting our struggle inside the country and the rightist
sectors accused Che of being a communist and other things. However, Che
always bad great authority; he brilliantly carried out every assignment he
received. He worked hard and got his first experience with the
nationalization of the industry. He worked hard at organizing production,
implementing production control measures, and he was one of the pioneers in
the area of voluntary work. He participated in almost every activity, and
he was very good in all he did. He was an example in all that he did.

Found at http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/castro/...o/1987/19871008 (http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/castro/1987/19871008)

In late November 1959, Che became the head of the National Bank of Cuba. When he took on the job, he left the job at the INRA to Orlando Borrego. But Che still oversaw the work at the INRA and returned to the work within the next year. Che immediately set to reforming the banking system, despite the lack of skilled economists within the bank. Che mentioned that foreign money interests had a hand in virtually every aspect of the Cuban economy, and this would cause great problems as the Revolution depended. Che implemented several controls over the amount of foreign currency held in reserve by Cuba. One of Guevara's main problems in the running of the Cuban National bank was trying to control capital flight from Cuba after the Revolution. With no capital, Cuba was not able to industrialize. Much of the capital flight early on in Che's administration was offset by a discount in the loans Cuba received for foreign nations. Nonetheless, Che did have success in the area of the agrarian reform while with the bank, and was proud to sign the first deeds of the peasants for the lands they had been given.


Good advisors ? :)

Later, in 1960, as the Soviet Union was offering to help Cuba financially, Che began to understand the real problem of Cuban industrial development to be that Cuba is producing only raw materials while manufactured goods had to be imported. This added up to a trade deficit from which Cuba could never recover, as long as it only manufactured raw materials. Che, along with others in the Government set about on a plan to eradicate Cuba's imports, by buying factories and machinery from Eastern European nations. He organized the bookkeeping apparatus in Cuba's economy to offset the monetary losses of some "unprofitable" industries with the gain of others, thus allowing the Cuban economy to continue without laying off more workers. Che rejected the appeals for raising wages, saying that if there were no increase in manufacture, raises would amount to simply printing more money, and then the money would be worth less, and people would become poorer. This explanation is an indication of Che's simple, yet poignant view of the economic principles upon which a socialist nation could lay. Cuba would have to produce more for there to be raises, and yet the Cuban economy continued in its course of rapid industrialization. Throughout this time, Che continued to work with voluntary labor brigades every weekend, setting the example for the entire countryside.

Guevara, Ernesto: Reminiscences of the Cuban Revolutionary War; Translated by Victoria Ortiz, 1968 Monthly Review Press, New York, New York

Rodriguez, Carlos Rafael: Che's Contribution to the Cuban Economy; from New International 8, 1991 Pathfinder Press, New York, New York

Taibo II, Paco Ignacio: Guevara, Also Known as Che; Translated by Martin Roberts. 1997, St. Martin's Griffin, New York, New York

and to make the whole why che was succesfull straight here ya go:

Che became a doctor. And helped many natives around south america...........

After a doctor a guerillia docter assistent
Somoebody who helped dying people when needed.

A succesfull bank director: proof is above.

A fine soldier.

And a good father and husband.

Now have the guts to tell me Che guevara wasnt succesfull.....

Pretty much arguments for a guy full of shit eh ? :)

[Xvall]

I wouldn't kill the traitors..
Just put them on some sort of trial.
If they are guilty, detain them until the revolution is over.

- Drake Dracoli

[Hayduke]

Mostly you have to keep the revolution as silent as possible.
And prisoners can't be taken will only cause trouble.......

But Im not here to discuss war tactics.......

Im here to debate with bono bout che's succesfull life

[PaulDavidHewson]

This still doesn't prove anything.

Of course they don't say:"
Che's advisor called Smith advised to Che that it wouldn't be wise to invest in United-fruit, so it was then that Che decided to bla bla bla"


And you are actually providing proof from a quote from Castro himself as I understand it?

I think anyone with half a brain and dedication could come up with the idea to buy factories btw.

If he didn't die a marter and they didn't have that picture of him I'm absolutely sure that he would have faded in the annals of history.

"Che mentioned that foreign money interests had a hand in virtually every aspect of the Cuban economy, and this would cause great problems as the Revolution depended"

Pretty self-evident wouldn't you say so?

Yes, Che did have succes on various matters.
No, he wasn't as succesful as people try to make him out.
No, he did not accomplish in his primary task to free supressed countries from evil capitalist dicatorships.

[RedRevolutionary87]

first of all che didnt want to be minister of the bank, he believed money was something created by the bourgoisie and ought to be abolished with communism

[Hayduke]

I could have guessed you would point this proof as propaganda by Castro but he...at least I came with something can't say that of you......

Still your saing he's not as succesfull as people think.....

Start reading the what's it about che in the article section on che lives......but I guess you see it as propaganda too....

People make him out as freedom fighter
Didnt he archived that.......
He made Cuba a better place by driving Batista out.
People were happy as well.... sounds like a freedom fighter to me.

[angry]

I am on your side D DAY, and I HATE people who say Ernesto "Che" Guevara was a failiure...he did NOT "die"
in bolivia he was MURDERED, also he was mudered in a coward way, bolivian army made it look like he was killed in action so that people would not be so angry about his death, for he was a soldier. The article is total bullshit, and an example of american "brainwashing"
I´ve said it before and I say it again FUCK the USA!

[Hayduke]

Quote: from angry on 9:57 pm on April 22, 2002
...he did NOT "die"
in bolivia he was MURDERED, also he was mudered in a coward way, bolivian army made it look like he was killed in action so that people would not be so angry about his death, for he was a soldier.


Yep saw this documentary bout che.....
The cia agent old bout how he said " shoot him in the chest not in the head " " It must look like he was killed in battle "

Cia criminals in Action.

Cheers

D-Day

[PaulDavidHewson]

I do think Che had a vision and that he is an admirable man. He took hsi faith into his own hands for starters, not many people can claim they did that.
the way he met his demise is sad and could probably have been avoided.

But I still don't think Che was as succesful as he would have wanted to be and as people claim him to be.

[oconner]

yeah, maybe you can criticise when you've done something worthwhile.

[Hayduke]

Quote: from PaulDavidHewson on 11:49 pm on April 22, 2002
I do think Che had a vision and that he is an admirable man. He took hsi faith into his own hands for starters, not many people can claim they did that.
the way he met his demise is sad and could probably have been avoided.

But I still don't think Che was as succesful as he would have wanted to be and as people claim him to be.


And what do people claim che is ?

[Guest]

D Day, i certainly agree that Che was not an utter failure, but after his death, he was not portrayed as a success in the strictest sense of the word. It is true that he was not an economist, but he understood Cuba's economy and he realized that becoming a satellite of the USSR, Cuba could be potentially ruined. Castro felt that the soviets were absolutely necessary for Cuba's survival, and in many ways this was true, but because of this Russian dependency, Cuba could never be totally free in its actions as an independant nation. This is one of the main reasons Che left the country that had become his home. Now as a father, he definitely was not a success. His children hardly knew him, partly because he died when they were so young, but also because he was never around. I don't think that's relevant, though.
While trying to spread world revolution in Africa, Che was forced to flee once again. The Africans could not have a successful revolution in the Cuban tradition. They had different needs and needed different leadership. "Failure" in Africa was not a product of Che's ineptness and it really should not be regarded as a failure. Bolivia, again was not entirely Che's fault, but Che, in so many ways, vainly tried to spread revolution in the wrong places. Che felt that wherever there were oppressed poor, revolution was soon to follow. Unfortunately, this just wasn't the case. Che was slightly misguided in his thinking, but was he a failure? fuck no. Since he has become a romantic icon, a martyr if you will, he symbolizes the angry defiance of the oppressed and unheard. Che is the voice for countless people seeking freedom across the world; and even though his dream of world revolution was not carried out in his lifetime, the very fact that he died fighting means that his spirit will always live on in the hearts of the people he sought so desperately to liberate. Che will never remembered as a mere upstart or a politician, but he will forever be pictured starving in the mountains, restless because more tyrants have yet to be defeated. His mission will always be a success!
CHE LIVES!

[Hayduke]

Really nice guest, really nice guest.......

Well Hewson your turn.....