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View Full Version : How can democracy and Socialism exist at the same time?



TITOMAn
19th April 2002, 21:25
First of all, the idea that Marxism and democracy are opposites is false. The fact is that under capitalism (which is usually referred to as "democracy") there is no real democracy. Yes, you can vote every few years in the presidential and congressional elections. But look at who stands in those elections. Only those who have enough money to do so. Who finances their campaigns? The big corporations. So you do not have a REAL choice. In practice, there is democracy only for the rich and powerful - bourgeois democracy.

More important than that, the government which is elected does not really have much choice of what policies to follow. When the 3 richest people in the US have a combined wealth equal to more than 115 million ordinary Americans, they are the ones who really run the country. With their economic decisions they determine the lives of millions of ordinary people, their job prospects, their access to health care, education, etc. When the interests of these big corporations are threatened they use the government to save them. For example when the democratically elected government of Allende in Chile in 1973 decided to nationalize the copper mines and the telecomms (owned by US companies), these corporations gave millions and the CIA organized a military coup in Chile which replaced the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government of Allende with the military DICTATORSHIP of Pinochet.

A more recent example is the ongoing trade war between Europe and the US over bananas. Leaving aside the issue of who's right and who's wrong, the point is that the interests of banana companies in Central America are threatened. All these companies are US corporations (Chiquita, Del Monte, Fruit Co.) who have decided and chosen the governments in the region for the last 100 years. As they feel their economic interests are threatened, they use the US government to fight against decisions of the European Union. How are they able to do that? Because they have millions of dollars invested in BOTH the Democratic and the Republican parties. Government and political parties are in the last instance a tool of big business and they are the ones who determine the policies which are implemented. These parties do not exist in a vacuum but are directly funded and influenced by the billionnaires and corporations. Therefore they do not really act in the name of "law", "truth", or "justice", but in the interests of the hand that feeds them.

Under socialism on the other hand, the economic resources of the country and world would not be in private hands, but in the hands of the majority of the population who would run and control them democratically. This would be a REAL democracy where the people would have real control over their lives. They would be able to democratically elect their representatives in government, and at the same time these representatives would have real power over the economy, to really change things. These officials would be subject to immediate recall if they did not satisfactorily do the jobs they were elected for. The people would then elect someone else who they thought would do things better. Also, these elected officials would not earn any more than a skilled worker. Unlike today where the "perks" often outweigh the salary of our "elected" officials. This will get rid of careerists and make sure that the people doing the jobs are there because they want to be there, not so they can get extra benefits from the job. These elected officials would also come from all members of society - as Lenin said, "any cook should be able to be prime minister" - it would be a truly people's democracy.

A further complication to this issue is that people generally identify Marxism with the regime which existed in the Soviet Union. As you can see there was no democracy of any kind there. We say that that was NOT socialism. It was Stalinism, that is, a regime where the economy was in the hands of the state, but the citizens had no way of participating in running it. The bureaucratic caste took control over the state apparatus, and used it in their own interests. This had nothing to do with socialism and in fact, in order to come to power Stalin had first to kill hundreds of thousands of socialist and communist militants, including most of the members of the central committee of the Bolshevik Party who organized the Russian Revolution in 1917. But the bottom line is that genuine socialism and genuine Marxism are based on the ultimate democracy - workers' democracy - democracy by and for the vast majority of people. As Leon Trotsky said, "socialism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen."

BatistaNationalista
20th April 2002, 00:55
This is all well and good, Titoman, but it just doesnt work.

Cuba attempted this when they overthrew Batista, and Castro rose as a tyrant above everybody.

sabre
20th April 2002, 04:55
Cuba is better off now than they were under Batista, and by the way th e poepl of cuba could throw castro out if they wanted to but they dont. I wonder why? Maybe because they like him?

Communist Dominion
20th April 2002, 05:39
i really (and any other normel person) dont understand what you are talking about, democracy has never existed only republicanism (close to democracy) but is not, right?
well USSR, Union of soviet socialist "republics". so really in communism it is as democratic as any capitalist country. Many socialists beleive thant only workers or citizens should vote bcause they have earned it, but anyway capitalism (true capitalism) would be a totalitarien tyranny/sub dictatorships. the rich fat-cats wouldf have controel over everything your rights and liberties would be in their controel, you can not honestly say (with your head out of your arse) that real communism is not democratic and the true capiktalism is? can you?

PunkRawker677
20th April 2002, 06:00
Batista,

Because Castro is a dictator does not mean that socialism and democracy are oppostites. There have been capitalist dictators as well, and very bad ones at that.

Democracy is the opposite of Totalitarianism
Communism is the opposity of Capitalism

They are parellel lines - they cannot be automatically labelled to either system. MANY marxists believe in "dictatorship of the proletariat", but at the same time many socialists, and communists believe in complete democracy (such as the DSA).. I think most people (in their right mind) support democracy, no matter wether they are communists, or capitalists, or anything else..

Lardlad95
20th April 2002, 17:24
I was thinking The US isn't really a democracy its a republic....actualy its a two party Dictorial Republic. Not every group is represented in elections because the two Parties get federal funding. You can't choose not to be capitalist in america. There are no socialist candidates, no communist candidates just cappie assholes.

Ernest Everhard
20th April 2002, 18:51
there are socialist and communist and fascist candidates in america. They don't matter because for the most part the American people, for all their faults, don't succumb to lunacy.

Furthermore let me recount a story to you. In 1988 the democrats and republicans found themselves in a very heated presidential contest. Like just about always their party platforms were very similar, where the republicans said that "children were the future", democrats said "the future depends on children"
In this whole election mess there was one man who actually stood for change. His name was jesse jackson. Among jackson's drastic stances where his desire to freeze military spending over a four year period and direct those funds towards social programs. Unlike either official party stance jesse stood for raising taxes, in most cases by a large margin and on the rich.
Now in many other country a man like jesse, who stood so drastically oppossed to the powers that be would have been:
a)executed
b)exiled
c)been the victim of an organized smear campaign

In the good ol usa jesse was not a victim of any of the above. On the contrary his platform was in large part adopted by the democrats. So one of the powers that be usurped his radical ideals. A similar situation happened in 96 with buchannan and the republicans.

I just told you this story so you realize one thing, american democracy is grand because it necessitates compromise. It is not about storming barricades, etc. It's not romantic, its pragmatic, and WE are all better off for it.

pastradamus
20th April 2002, 19:11
america is fuckin corrupt so shut it cappi$!

reagan lives
20th April 2002, 22:14
Touche.

IzmSchism
20th April 2002, 22:51
so why dont responsible people vote for a responsible government? how is it that one of the largest corporations in america, Enron, who backed Bush, claims the largest bankruptcy in the history of the world? The influence must come from giant corporations, or else people like Ralph Nader would be elected, case in point, Bush who rallied with exon and other energy companies recently had Dr. Robert Watson, head of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, removed from his role as leader of this group, why, he and his members had founded that the Global Warming issue is something very real, that it is happening right now, case in point, a few months ago, a huge piece of land (ice) half the size of rhode island) or the size of William Randolph Hearst's property (see Citizen Kane) broke off in the Arctic. Why did they lobby to get him booted, a extremly vocal leader in the world of scientists, because it was in the best interest of business, and for Bush himself.

On the other hand, Bush himself is turning into a quasi-dictator, his recent ploy to begin Norcom, which would see a North American defense unit positioned all around the border from Northern Canada down to Panama? As well the Pentagon is seeing to pass new legislation that would give them even more power. The ability to re-write foreign policy and foreign trade. No wonder Bill Clinton made it thru for two terms, he did everything right in the eyes of big business, and shit is so fucked up that he can send a few scuds into Afghanistan and get a blow job and look like a hero. WTF??

I find it extremely hard to advocate any system, as both have shown in terms of history that they fail humanity. But how can people who support capitalism be so blind to the injustice. Our policies and power inadvertently kill more people and destroy more lives than any other country. Our 'democracy' is a plague.

El Che
20th April 2002, 22:53
" Now in many other country a man like jesse, who stood so drastically oppossed to the powers that be would have been:
a)executed
b)exiled
c)been the victim of an organized smear campaign"

Yes, a good example are those contries where the US enforces corrupt dictatorships to "protect its national interests". Which is to say protect the Capitalist new world order and its personal imperialist interests in exploiting the rest of the world`s resourses and populations.

And augostos you know as well as I do that europian democracy is far more advanced than the US democracy in more ways than one. Despite this we continue to hear yankee rants about their own mediocre democratic process. This evidenciates insecurity if you ask me, someone who knows he is good looking doesnt go around telling everybody how good he looks.

reagan lives
20th April 2002, 23:07
He does if there's an internet board full of disgruntled assholes who won't shut up about how ugly he is.

peaccenicked
21st April 2002, 22:08
In some ways American democracy is superior to western Euroopean democracy. Britain does nt even have a written constitution or a freedom of information act.
Democracy at its lowest level is the universal franchise,
not that great a level if you are black and come from Florida.
Socialism is vast step forward in democracy, the majority class become the majority power. The main problem in the advanced democratic countries is that the majority who bother to vote, vote for a minority class
interests. This shows that the majority are duped by the minority.
Stalinism as helped, most people are frightened of
the Big Brother State.
Once we defeat the idea that socialism is about the totalitarian state, the left will become stronger than ever.
We must also point to both the weaknesses of democracy in Imperialist countries and the over exploitative nature of imperialism and that charity is not good enough.
The answer is a concious effort to have real equality between nations.
We can make a start by calling for the end to the Five or six nation veto in the UN. How can that be democratic.?

uth1984
17th August 2002, 14:37
"Democracy is indispensible to socialism"
lenin
I'll say no more

Anonymous
21st August 2002, 18:51
Democracy is needed, but not capitalism, neither republic, a total comunism state will fall to totalitarism, has cuba fell, has USSR fell has China did etc... but do not even try a capitalism democracy!