What's the greatest enemy of communism?

[BIG BROTHER]

I've been thinking about this, and I'm begining to belive that the greatest enemy or obstacle to communism are the middle class, and the workers who just because they are employed at white collar jobs, associate with the middle class enstead of the proleriat.

What do you guys think?

[Bright Banana Beard]

Fascism and the bourgeois.

[Psy]

Fascism and the bourgeois.
Fascists are hyper reactionary bourgeois, that are so reactionary they deform the capitalist system, destroying the bourgeois democracy and in final stages eventually becoming nothing more then a military junta, where the rules of capitalism is replaced by simply the will of power of the state itself.

Fascists are our greatest enemy, as the sane bourgeois understand they need us, while the fascists are totally insane and as shown in Germany willing to destroy everything (including themselves) to not lose.

[BIG BROTHER]

yes, but at least as I see it, facism now is weak, meanwhile the unwillingnes of the white collar workers to join the revolution is weak, since they consider themselves middle class.

[Davie zepeda]

The media and the family's names who are seen over and over in politics .
King's and Queen's are the same as president and senator's only difference is they changed name's .

[Psy]

yes, but at least as I see it, facism now is weak, meanwhile the unwillingnes of the white collar workers to join the revolution is weak, since they consider themselves middle class.
The CIA was built by ex-Nazi's, the American bourgeoisie got the brilliant idea of putting leaches on fascists to be their attack dogs (Of course the German bourgeoisie though they had Hitler on a tight leash too till they found themselves in WWII). The threat is not the racists skin heads rapped up in dead Nazi propaganda but the fascists used by the bourgeoisie to do their dirty work, getting lose.

Take the Cuban missile crisis, when the bourgeoisie came to the logical conclusion that locking horns with the USSR was not worth Cuba, the CIA (run by ex-Nazi's) refused to give up their anti-Cuban paramilitary, the FBI and CIA had a bloody turf war and Hoover ran away with his tail between his legs when threatened in Hoovers own office by Bush Sr (when Bush Sr was a spook for the CIA, remeber the whole Hoover Memo getting out and Bush Sr claiming Hoover must have been talking about another Bush in the CIA that was involved in operation Zapata), in the end the CIA got to keep their paramilitary to terrorize Cuba even though the American bourgeoisie doesn't really gain anything by it and today doesn't gain much by it.

If Hoover that totally brutally busted the balls of the left, couldn't yank the CIA's leash to bring them back in line with interests of the ruling class, then there is the real threat that the fascists the bourgeoisie use as attack dogs could poise a real threat. Looking at PNAC the real power base of the Bush admin might be from the fascist attack dogs raised by the bourgeoisie.

[Sankofa]

yes, but at least as I see it, facism now is weak, meanwhile the unwillingnes of the white collar workers to join the revolution is weak, since they consider themselves middle class.

Exactly. I think it's important to remember that workers can sometimes conflict with their own class interests.

The problem is, what can we do about it?

[RNK]

Complacency, apathy, and pacifism are by far the most lethal enemies of socialism.

[jake williams]

In virtually all of the West fascists are ultra-marginal fuckups. They're not really the enemies of anyone.

[Dros]

IMPERIALISM!!!

Of course all of these are great threats to our movement. However, socialism absolutely can not be built while the world is dominated by imperialism. Socialism can (and will) be built while pacifists, liberals, relativists, and petty-bourgeoisie forces exist.

[supernaltempest]

Our greatest enemies are ourselves.

[RHIZOMES]

the state. So many revolutions have been cut short by the state.

[Psy]

the state. So many revolutions have been cut short by the state.
Mostly by powerful foreign states, so that would be imperialism.

[BIG BROTHER]

Imperialism, a powerful enemy indeed!

[F9]

I have to agree with 2 comrades.Imperialism and fascists the main opponents of communism!

Fuserg9:star:

[BIG BROTHER]

The thing is though I think fascism isn't coming back anytime soon, or at least as strong as it was during the WWII era. And imperialism would be easier to defeat if those who are part of the working class, but don't identify themselves with it, would join the cause.

[Winter]

I've been thinking about this, and I'm begining to belive that the greatest enemy or obstacle to communism are the middle class, and the workers who just because they are employed at white collar jobs, associate with the middle class enstead of the proleriat.

What do you guys think?

I know where you're getting at, but it is not the middle class in themselves that are "evil". It is there apaethetic nature and there drive for "the american dream", to be successful.

I think they lack alternative options, thus are forced into participating within the system just like we are. They have no idea of what Marxism has to offer, and struggle on a daily basis to make ends meet.

Although the middle class may not be living paycheck to paycheck, they too for the most part are working class people, thus I would have to disagree with you and say that the vast majority of middle class people are in fact proles. Ask them if they support a progressive tax and they will agree. Ask them if corporate America holds too much power over politicians and they will agree. The whole concept of middle class people being part of the bourgeois class is silly. The bourgeois class is trying to destroy the middle class. The bourgeois fear competition. Thus, the middle class are taxed the most, keeping them from never achieving there goals. They do have a revolutionary spirit and it's our job to tap into it.

So I must conclude that the greatest enemy of Communism today is...lack of organizing.

The fact that there are countless organizations that are so dogmatic and sectarian makes us look as bad as christians. If we ever want to make a difference within our own countries we must organize and have a mass spread of Marxists ideas while informing the masses about the self destructive nature of capitalism. We must do our part, and we have numbers, but not cooperation. For the sake of a new world free of poverty, this is something we must do.

[BIG BROTHER]

Yea! I Agree with you completly, the only thing though is that I wasn' saying that middle class weren't proles, I was saying that most of them don't consider themselves proles even if they are underpaid and stuff like that.

[Winter]

Yea! I Agree with you completly, the only thing though is that I wasn' saying that middle class weren't proles, I was saying that most of them don't consider themselves proles even if they are underpaid and stuff like that.

Right. And it is because of this concept of "the american dream" that makes them strive for an unachievable goal. That's where we come in and remind them of who they are. :hammersickle:

[Psy]

The thing is though I think fascism isn't coming back anytime soon, or at least as strong as it was during the WWII era. And imperialism would be easier to defeat if those who are part of the working class, but don't identify themselves with it, would join the cause.
Look at the Pinochet and the Contras, they were fascists used for the imperialists goals of the bourgeoisie. Look at the 2002 coup of Chavez, it was again led by fascist puppets of the USA.

Like I said early the American ruling bourgeoisie after WWII got the idea to put leashes on fascists and use them as their attack dogs. These are people that truly believe in fascism but the bourgeoisie yanks their leash to keep them in line with the interests of the American ruling bourgeoisie.

The question is what would happen if bourgeoisie can't control of their fascist attack dogs, and the fascist attack dogs decide to pursue their own interests? This is why I think the real fascist threat is not the racists wrapped in dead Nazi propaganda but those used as pawns by the bourgeoisie.

[BIG BROTHER]

Look at the Pinochet and the Contras, they were fascists used for the imperialists goals of the bourgeoisie. Look at the 2002 coup of Chavez, it was again led by fascist puppets of the USA.

Like I said early the American ruling bourgeoisie after WWII got the idea to put leashes on fascists and use them as their attack dogs. These are people that truly believe in fascism but the bourgeoisie yanks their leash to keep them in line with the interests of the American ruling bourgeoisie.

The question is what would happen if bourgeoisie can't control of their fascist attack dogs, and the fascist attack dogs decide to pursue their own interests? This is why I think the real fascist threat is not the racists wrapped in dead Nazi propaganda but those used as pawns by the bourgeoisie.

I guess we can't let our guard go down...

[bezdomni]

Imperialism.

[AGITprop]

ultra-Nationalism.

[dksu]

As of NOW, in the industrially advanced nations, I would say the effectiveness of the bourgeois ideological state apparatuses in reproducing the relations of production =|. Ideology is a frightening thing - it grips the working class and turns it against itself, freely. This isn't to say that the working class is 'stupid' or 'ignorant' - it's to say that, so long as bourgeois ideology remains prevalent, the workers will only be able to advocate struggle within its narrow confines. This is not easily done - just look at the amount of money directed at propaganda (this includes advertising of all kinds, PR campaigns, etc.).

[BIG BROTHER]

Would you guys consider selfishness an enemy of communism?

[Vahanian]

i agree with winters demise are enmey is the american dream- because you have to be asleep to belive it

[Howard]

I have been thinking about this for awhile, and I think the biggest threat to Communism is that so many are murdered or put in prison. We can never get traction.

[Dimentio]

I've been thinking about this, and I'm begining to belive that the greatest enemy or obstacle to communism are the middle class, and the workers who just because they are employed at white collar jobs, associate with the middle class enstead of the proleriat.

What do you guys think?

The greatest enemies of communism are the vices of communists.

[Howard]

The greatest enemies of communism are the vices of communists.

Exactly. It's these vices that end up crushing too many of our skulls.

[ComradeOm]

Alcohol! (http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/downloads/pdfs/wasted_indeed.pdf)

(Warning: PDF)

[R_P_A_S]

ignorance

[bgirlskttlez]

the media and imperialism

[BIG BROTHER]

the media was one that until comrade bgirlskttlez mention didn't come to my mind. But is true, one example would be how in Venezuela they supported and took part in the coup against Chavez.

[crimsonzephyr]

I think the apathetic middle class. They are the ones that are killing us because they aren't joining our cause or at least thinking for themselves. They don't do anything but believe the media and do meaningless work for harmful corporations They are the fools Euripides explains- "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish".

[Redmau5]

I would have thought it was capitalism.

It's a seriously obvious answer.

[BIG BROTHER]

I would have thought it was capitalism.

It's a seriously obvious answer.

Well yeah you got a point.

But to destroy capitalism we have many enemies who will protect it. I gues that's more what I meant.

[Magdalen]

I think the apathetic middle class. They are the ones that are killing us because they aren't joining our cause or at least thinking for themselves. They don't do anything but believe the media and do meaningless work for harmful corporations They are the fools Euripides explains- "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish".

I couldn't agree more.

I was down at the University today selling FRFI, and I could not believe the ignorance of the so-called "educated classes" towards the newspaper, and to socialism in general. Even in poor working class areas, where people are often poorly educated, I have found that people stop and ask questions, rather than stride past, convinced of their own superiority.

[BIG BROTHER]

I couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by hardee http://img.revleft.com/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1106073#post1106073)
I think the apathetic middle class. They are the ones that are killing us because they aren't joining our cause or at least thinking for themselves. They don't do anything but believe the media and do meaningless work for harmful corporations They are the fools Euripides explains- "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish".

I was down at the University today selling FRFI, and I could not believe the ignorance of the so-called "educated classes" towards the newspaper, and to socialism in general. Even in poor working class areas, where people are often poorly educated, I have found that people stop and ask questions, rather than stride past, convinced of their own superiority.

I agree too, the "middle class" doesn't wake up, its asleep thinking and asociating themselves more with the burgoise rather than the poor proleriats.

I've always though, that the reason might be that most of them do white collar jobs, so they feel they have more in common with the ruling class even if they're also selling their (mental) labor, just like a contruction worker does.

[Faux Real]

Lack of communication along class lines.

[Red Lobster]

Petit-Bourgeoisie parading as communists ( the anarchists). Revisionists. Libertarians ( especially 'Austrian school')

[BIG BROTHER]

Would you guys considered corrupt leaders who prefer power over the demands of the people as another strong enemy of comunism.