Explosion Rocks Time's Sq. Military Recruitment Center

[bayano]

New York, New York, U.S. - An early morning explosion blew out windows in the Time's Square Armed Forces Recruitment Center and shook buildings blocks away. No one was injured, but New York City police officers and firefighters now redirecting foot and vehicular traffic away from the area. The Time's Square subway station, a major hub that nearly a dozen train lines pass through was also shut down.



Witnesses reported seeing a large plume of smoke after the explosion and a man wearing a hooded sweatshirt on a bicycle leaving the scene. The Time's Square center located directly across the street from a police station is a frequent target of anti-war protests. There are likely to be demonstrations at recruitment center as we near the fifth anniversary of the March 20th 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq.

i completely support this.

[Faux Real]

A much more efficient way of telling recruiters to GTFO. Berkeley should learn from this.

[Fedorov]

Well seeing as recruiters don't force anyone and if your dumb enough to join the army its your own fault if you end up in Iraq. If you tell a recruiter to go away they generally will, don't blame the player but the game. An itch for a political message? Politicians deserve the bombs more that the military which is just a pawn. There would only be any real legitimacy to this if there was a draft. Its just hooliganism, why not set off some bombs at neo-nazis instead, wouldn't that be a little more practical? If

[Faux Real]

In many cases these kids join because of the money, glamor, and mythology these recruiters sell them.

[Fedorov]

I completely agree with you on that but I don't think bombing is a way to stop that or even bring attention and sympathy to the anti war/military movement in the US. Take the Barbie doll, it teaches young girls to be submissive, pretty, and dumb but thats a result of capitalism as is the war and the recruiting. So I agree with the motive but not the execution. I say go to the root of the problem, the government.
I know its a la mode to be Pro anything anti US here but common...

[Bright Banana Beard]

I would I codone on one thing, it alarmed people that even if we fight on Iraq and Afghanistan , terrorist is still here.

[Raisa]

Well seeing as recruiters don't force anyone and if your dumb enough to join the army its your own fault if you end up in Iraq. If you tell a recruiter to go away they generally will, don't blame the player but the game. An itch for a political message? Politicians deserve the bombs more that the military which is just a pawn. There would only be any real legitimacy to this if there was a draft. Its just hooliganism, why not set off some bombs at neo-nazis instead, wouldn't that be a little more practical? If ev

Im not clicking that poll........I see what yore up to!

As far as the thing I quoted, dont play yourself...the army recruiters go promising poor kids from the hood all kind of SHIT. When they tell you you can go to college and that the army has benifits who do the fuck you think its speaking to?
Middle class white teenage boys and girls? The only thing the army can say to really entice them is " serve your country and protect our tradition of freedom and justice" because their doing fine in school, and their probably already on their way to college.
But for the less fortunate It is like forcing htem, cause none of us ever thought wed get to go to college and get CAREERS or be good providing fathers or have actual fucking HOUSES of our own untill some fuck in a hat came to our school and told us that all we had
to do was go kill people like us in other countries, wording it more eloquently and not telling us we might be exposed to nuclear cancer causing particles or strange diseases, or that we would participate in killing children and innocent people and have to live with what we saw in our eyes forever, and that no prick back home would ever understand us cause thats all they think this is politics. Not Barak, not Hillary, not nobody. We would be stuck in our own heads forever.
Then we can be alotted the basic rights of white men.
Thats fucking hooliganism.....

[Dr Mindbender]

Bombs are not class concious.

Nor is terrorism

Condemn.

:glare:

take this from someone who lived through the Irish troubles.

[Zurdito]

[QUOTE]Well seeing as recruiters don't force anyone and if your dumb enough to join the army its your own fault if you end up in Iraq. If you tell a recruiter to go away they generally will, don't blame the player but the game.

recruiters lie to people to get them in the military, and they exploit people who due to the capitalist system can't afford to pay college fees for example.


An itch for a political message? Politicians deserve the bombs more that the military which is just a pawn.

politicians deserve the bombs instead of the military?

right...

if you were bombing politicians, who would be called in to crush you?


There would only be any real legitimacy to this if there was a draft.

the military is still commiting genocide in Afghanista and Iraq and propagandising/exploiting people into taking part in this, draft or no draft.

[Fedorov]

Alright, seeing as I still don't know how to do the fancy box quote thing here comes my rebuff.
"recruiters lie to people to get them in the military, and they exploit people who due to the capitalist system can't afford to pay college fees for example."
-Recruiters do lie and so does advertising, if frosted flakes really was the greatest why would anyone eat special K? I guess its my lame way of saying that we are fed plenty of disinformation and if you don't look at the army critically before signing your life away you probably aren't the brightest no matter how cool their posters are.

"politicians deserve the bombs instead of the military?

right...

if you were bombing politicians, who would be called in to crush you? "

-And who is making the call to crush?...the politicians. The October Revolution shows that even the army, given it has enough dissidents, can work with the people.

"Genocide in Afghanistan and Iraq"
-Well of course the whole thing is horrible but capitalists are in to make money not just kill for the hell of it. There is no determined effort to wipe out a group of people so lets stop the genocide bullshit. Agreed its all wrong, but you shouldn't blow stuff out of proportion.

Once again, bombs at recruiting stations won't attract sympathy from the public or further the cause of Socialism/Communism. It seems people just have no idea what to do.

" Im not clicking that poll........I see what yore up to!"
-Really...what am I up to?

"Bombs are not class concious.

Nor is terrorism

Condemn.


take this from someone who lived through the Irish troubles."

-Thank god someone agrees

*Also I'm well aware of how messed up things are, I'm a socialist I have a healthy hate for the American political system. (lets not forget blitz rounds)

[Sankofa]

I don't know what United States you're from, but recruiters will do just about anything (including lying) to get you to sign that sheet of paper.

From what I've seen, these guys are absolute vultures. Seems like every other day, they perched themselves right outside the doors to the lunch room, were placing brochures under the wind shield wipers in the parking lot, the guidance counselors office, the commercials on our school TV system; sometimes they even cruised the mall hassling people about joining up.

I've been out of high school for two years and I still get letters in the mail from the marines, messages on my university e-mail and calls to my home. This is after telling anyone that tried to contact me that I'm 100% not interested in any type of military service.

Combine this type of relentless recruitment efforts with constant propaganda bombardment of all the benefits, etc. it's easy to see how some people fall into this trap.

[Jude]

Ummmm... you're protesting a WAR by DROPPING BOMBS???????????? Does anyone else see the irony? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you stooping to their level?

[Fedorov]

Recruitment does indeed get dirty but to me its no different than any other type of advertisement or add campaigns I see. Yes, as I've stated before they do lie and resort to dirty tactics, I'm aware there are a lot of ignorant people, but frankly theres nothing you can do. I know several that joined up and it was just hardwired in their brain that everyone should be a part of the military and that marching in unison is the most badass thing, even more so than getting "mad hoes". In any case does any of this justify bombing? I get phone calls myself, I get irritated, but not to the extent those wackos are. As I've sad the past two times this act will not contribute in any way to the anti war movement or harness any sentiment.

[Guerrilla22]

They blew up an empty building, which is one of 500,000 some recruiting offices and will no doubt be repaired or replaced within a short time. I'm not condemning the use of violence, just question the tactic and the usefullness.

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

Nor is terrorism - Condemn."Fedorov


I disagree with your position, specifically because what happened does not fit into the definition of terrorism. Read below.


Many putative definitions of terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism) define as "terrorism" only those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal and by a member or members of a group (as opposed to being carried out in a lone attack), and which deliberately target, or else disregard the safety of, non-combatants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-combatants) (civilians). Many definitions also include only acts of unlawful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) violence as opposed to "lawful acts of war".Wikipedia - Terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism)

There seems to be no reason that there was any intent to target a civilian population in the area. Even video of the bombing show this to be true. So its kind of hard then to establish what happened as an act of terrorism. I don't recall reading about an anti-war suicide bomber walking to the recruiting center at 5 PM killing 147 people. That would fit the definition of terrorism.

This was a response, an act of resistance. We should be able to tell the difference between military and civilian and how they're role plays as the defending force of the American hierarchy and capitalist class. It's not a hard concept.


Ummmm... you're protesting a WAR by DROPPING BOMBS???????????? Does anyone else see the irony? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you stooping to their level? Jude

How does a small bomb stoop to the level of the US atrocity's in Iraq. More than 5 years of protesting the war, even before the war started and we are still at war. The majority of the people are against the war, this shows just how unpopular this war has become and we must acknowledge this as dialog.


"For us, they are not terrorists but insurgent forces, guerrilla forces. First you have to recognize that and then look for a path to peace."
Hugo Chavez in reference to las FARC.

Nobody has yet to claim responsibility, but it would be interesting to see who eventually does.

And well, yet the war continues another day.

[Fedorov]

RebelDePorLaPaz, I said earlier in the post I don't know how to properly quote so that statement is actually from Ulster Socialist. I agree it is not terrorism but a sort of hooliganism or vandalism, someone could have been injured. The war is unpopular but it won't have any real steam until theres a draft, most America, no matter how outspoken against the war doesn't give a rats ass.

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

Fedorov, a draft isn't necessary to lay down any justification. We already know the course of the war and how it has negatively affected the prospect of peace in Iraq, the region and around the world. Now Americans are feeling the affects of overspending in Iraq, loosing Afghanistan, through the deepening of a recession, weakened job reports, high gas prices and so on. With all this going on how does the war play a role in improving the economy at home? If anything, just about every aspects of American life has already been affected by the war, and it starts at the gas pump. There is a lot of real steam out there right now.

Here's a link from the NYC Indymedia on the blast for anybody interested.

Pictures - Times Square Armed Forces Recruiting Station Bombed
Bringing the war home, a hooded bicyclist bombed the Times Square Armed Forces recruiting station
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/95284.html

[YSR]

The fact that people actually voted "condemn" is a sign of how fucked up and confused the left is.

While I would never condemn an action like this, in other cases I would urge caution, since the connection between, let's say, Citibank and the war is less clear. Activists who attack the state head on should be careful to make sure that their actions can be clearly explained as part of a larger campaign.

However, in this case, it's pretty obvious what's going on. Military recruiters are directly related to the poverty draft in this country. There's a massive, entirely ineffective pacifist anti-war movement in this country, that exists to support actions like this.

Not class conscious, Ulster? Fuck that. As Raisa clearly indicates, destruction of military recruitment centers is about as class conscious as it gets.

I'm not calling for guerrilla warfare against the state, that's silly Weathermanesque adventurism. But seriously, I'm used to trying to convince the fucking liberals that a "diversity of tactics" is a good thing. The fact that other revolutionaries don't already accept it is depressing.

[Marsella]

Yes this is justified.

Attacks on American military institutions are completely justified. This would extend to military recruiters and soldiers. One more dead American soldier may potentially save several innocent people.

[F9]

Condone!Violence is our only way out of capitalism!I condone every action against capitalism and facism!

Fuserg9:star:

[Fedorov]

And yet the majority of these American soldiers really are just plain ignorant to what is happening. If its their way out of the ghetto blame the system, bombing the damn military won't do a thing to further anyone's cause. Lets not go off into oversimplifications that a dead Americans saves lives. Its a little odd, you wouldn't start a revolution or act belligerent against workers that work for capitalist industry? Soldiers are in the same situation just performing a different task. If people vote condemn it just shows that not everyone on the left is obsessed with violent acts to get their message across. Please tell me what will be the result of this bombing? More people will wake up and say "Oh shit Iraq is wrong and so is capitalism". I doubt that. People are people no matter what ideology they subscribe to or live in.

[RNK]

Unless, of course, handfuls, and then dozens, and then hundreds of recruitment centers, army barracks and other military and government institutions and buildings are bombed, and insurrectionary activity becomes commonplace in American society, and with it social acceptance and eventually support. :)

The FLQ (Front du Liberation du Quebec) initially gained quite a bit of support through similar actions in the 70s -- to the point that support rallies numbering in the thousands were held in downtown Montreal. But there is a fine line; as soon as the FLQ went from symbolic bombings to kidnapping and assassinations, that support essentially disintigrated.

So don't be so quick to judge an act of symbollic violence.

[Marsella]

And yet the majority of these American soldiers really are just plain ignorant to what is happening.

They ignorantly invaded a country?

They ignorantly occupy a country?

Those kind of 'defences' aren't worth the paper on which they are written.


If its their way out of the ghetto blame the system, bombing the damn military won't do a thing to further anyone's cause.

Of course we could condemn the system. But no one is forced to join the military. They, like the rest of us here, have a choice in what job to pursue. The military seems like a more attractive option so, naturally, they take it.

But please do not try and ignore the fact that this was an individual choice, and it ultimately is their individual choice to kill poor innocent foreigners.

Being poor in America is not an excuse to kill poor foreigners.


Lets not go off into oversimplifications that a dead Americans saves lives.

No, that is a logical step. One dead American soldier, means one less soldier in the military. Generally, smaller armies have the capability of killing less people.


Its a little odd, you wouldn't start a revolution or act belligerent against workers that work for capitalist industry? Soldiers are in the same situation just performing a different task.

Soldiers, like police officers, are not working class.

They eradicate the working class, their jobs are completely different.


If people vote condemn it just shows that not everyone on the left is obsessed with violent acts to get their message across.

True. But I am not concerned about symbolic messages, but actual material changes.

A protest against the war does not change the fact that there are several hundred thousand troops in Iraq.

Acts of violence against recruiters and their buildings sends quite a strong message that the population does not condone this war.

[bezdomni]

I think it is ridiculous that so-called revolutionaries are opposing a symbolic bombing of a US MILITARY RECRUITMENT CENTER

The problem with things like this is that the media puts its cloud of smoke over the whole thing, and turns it into some sort of isolated, non-political action. For example, the newspapers and media outlets all say that the motive of the bombing is unclear and that it was lucky nobody got hurt.

Clearly, the motive was against the U.S. military and not to injure anybody...since the bomb went off at like three in the morning.

I fully support this.

[The Douche]

If somebody had blown up the recruiting station I went to, then I wouldn't be in Iraq right now.

Thats all I'm going to say, and you can interpret it however you want.

[YSR]

If somebody had blown up the recruiting station I went to, then I wouldn't be in Iraq right now.

Amen. And here's hoping you come home soon.


This would extend to military recruiters and soldiers. One more dead American soldier may potentially save several innocent people.

Get out of here with that kinda talk. Soldiers are almost exclusively working class folks. If they wanna frag their officers, well that's great. But that's not the same as indiscriminate violence against the military.

I don't think folks should be declaring death sentences, which is basically what you're saying. That's not what the Left is about.

[Comrade Rage]

CONDONED x 100!


I think it is ridiculous that so-called revolutionaries are opposing a symbolic bombing of a US MILITARY RECRUITMENT CENTER
QFT

[AGITprop]

Yes this is justified.

Attacks on American military institutions are completely justified. This would extend to military recruiters and soldiers. One more dead American soldier may potentially save several innocent people.

This is a horrible approach. Killing a US soldier if he is not trying to kill you is harming the proletariat. Soldiers are workers as well. Most of the time,these people join the army due to their economic conditions. It is an incorrect view to assume soldiers are the enemy. The bourgeois-state is the enemy and the army s just their tool consisting non class conscious workers looking for means to survive.

As for bombing a vacated recruitment center. Shocking but unproductive.

[Fedorov]

My point exactly, soldiers are indeed workers and as I've said before lets not forget the October Revolution in which the army participated in on the workers side (a good chunk of it at least). It won't be surprising if symbolic bombing start to become a little more. Anyone remember the weathermen?
In any case I guess I forgot the revolutionary in RevLeft. I myself don't particularly support violence unless the conditions are right.

[Zurdito]

And who is making the call to crush?...the politicians. The October Revolution shows that even the army, given it has enough dissidents, can work with the people.

soldiers, not "the army".

[Fedorov]

Apologies Zurdito, but you understand my point.

[Raisa]

And yet the majority of these American soldiers really are just plain ignorant to what is happening. If its their way out of the ghetto blame the system, bombing the damn military won't do a thing to further anyone's cause. Lets not go off into oversimplifications that a dead Americans saves lives. Its a little odd, you wouldn't start a revolution or act belligerent against workers that work for capitalist industry? Soldiers are in the same situation just performing a different task. If people vote condemn it just shows that not everyone on the left is obsessed with violent acts to get their message across. Please tell me what will be the result of this bombing? More people will wake up and say "Oh shit Iraq is wrong and so is capitalism". I doubt that. People are people no matter what ideology they subscribe to or live in.

Fedorov, who do you think are the ones that enforce the system?
The system isnt a space ship in the sky we place blame on...its enforced by brutality and militarization. The means of production and the power of the people who run the system is enforced by the military, and the poleeeece.
So when the military baits poor kids into makig their armies larger, so they can die, it is dispicable. People on the left are not obsessed with violence to get their message across. its just that the "system" is obsessed with violence to keep itself in power.

[Fedorov]

Well in this case it the "system" is not using violence to stay in power but further its economic and geo-political interests. Now no one will argue there is ludicrous amount of propoganda but I don't see the American system as enforced by the military, there is no martial law. The reason is that there is no real discontent in the US, yeah there are a lot of problems but not enough for rebellion and real dissent let alone the need for the government to use force to quell it. The army gets an assignment, it does it. Can't be simpler. If poor kids are more likely to join (it is true) well that will be the target. The same as Ford marketing a focus to college kids and lower income people as apposed to say a Navigator (im aware its lincoln). None of this is purely American or new, it has always been this way and will stay so for some time. True, it didn't harm anyone and was more symbolic but it achieved nothing. The problem is the political and economic system we are in. In any case I say focus more on the government not its lapdogs.

[YSR]

I don't see the American system as enforced by the military, there is no martial law.

This is bullshit. The state is "the monopoly of violence over a given population in a given area." That's Weber, bourgeois sociologist.

Why does ideology mean anything? Why do we do anything that the government and capital impel us to? Because at the end of the day, we would be in jail or killed if we didn't.

[Fedorov]

Your right YSR about the end of the day, but its not the end of the day and America is not it shabby enough state to have any "wacko lefties" be a real threat. There is no current enforcement of the system by the police or military but if it were threatened the government would not hesitate to use them.

[raspute]

Ummmm... you're protesting a WAR by DROPPING BOMBS???????????? Does anyone else see the irony? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you stooping to their level?
I think you're misinterpreting the overall reason we're anti-war. We don't oppose the use of violence, we oppose the use of it on innocents and its use as a means of coprorate gain.

[Ferryman 5]

Good to see that the spirit of revolutionary resistance to the US slaughter machine is getting under way in the belly of the beast. This will be welcomed by millions who here about it and increase their resolve to step up the struggle against the imperialist mayhem terrorising the world. This should serve as a warning to the so-called "workers in uniform" to get back on the side of the international workers movement stop killing the enemies of imperialism or accept the consequences.

As for the reluctant lefts bleating like frightened sheep about "protesting" etc, why don't you draw the obvious conclusion from your pacifism and organise a public protest to condemn the "terrorists" attack on the military office.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Well seeing as recruiters don't force anyone and if your dumb enough to join the army its your own fault if you end up in Iraq. If you tell a recruiter to go away they generally will, don't blame the player but the game. An itch for a political message? Politicians deserve the bombs more that the military which is just a pawn. There would only be any real legitimacy to this if there was a draft. Its just hooliganism, why not set off some bombs at neo-nazis instead, wouldn't that be a little more practical? If

that's not true, recruiters well tell you all kinds of lies to get you to join. They say you can join with friends, you''ll be garunteed a job, you won't be deployed to Iraq etc all kinds of nonsense to make it seem sensible. Most people join because its supposedly a great way to get a career and education, yet a larger percentage of veterans are unemployed then percentage of the general public

[bezdomni]

I think Iraqis have every right to shoot at american invaders and defend their homes. While it's unfortunate that so many people from the U.S. got suckered into joining the military, I shed no tears for the empire's soldiers.

Regardless of all the lies the recruiters tell you, you still know that you're joining the military. Even if it was true that the military would pay for all of your college when you left, or that they'd find you a good job or whatever...the person who signs that contract is implicitly saying that their college education or career is more important than the lives of Iraqis. That's fucked up, true or not.

[Lenin II]

Ummmm... you're protesting a WAR by DROPPING BOMBS???????????? Does anyone else see the irony? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you stooping to their level?

How DARE you compare the violence of the oppressed to the violence of the oppressor! So in your mind, leftist freedom fighters are no different than soldiers for imperialism?

You should be fucking restricted for saying that.

I completely support this in every way.

[Invader Zim]

It depends on who bombed it and why. If, for example, it was some crazy righwing nutter bombing it in protest to homosexuals being permitted to join the armed forces, or something like that, then obviously that changes things.

[RNK]

The only right-wingers extremist enough to bomb anything are the deranged ultra-right libertarian kinds that hate governments. And they tend to only care about how they're being "oppressed" and so generally go after federal targets which, to them, are more symbollic of their "oppression". They wouldn't go after the Army.

No, my friends, I smell Weathermen 2.0... or a pyromaniac anarchist with too much time on his hands.

[RaiseYourVoice]

I am not sure what to do of these tactics. I do not agree with bombings that happen to spread fear among large parts of the working class (bomb threats on public places etc.) or with bombings that injure / kill people. As this is neither i guess i can agree with it. Just hope this is one of many things these people do, fulltime militants usually go nowhere good.

YSR is right about one important thing though, we cannot let the choice of tactic split our movement. The state will always try to keep us busy by spliting us into nationalities, sex, tactics etc. But dont forget who is in charge of all the killings, the death, the exploitation around the world and who is fighting it.

[bolshevik butcher]

As someone actually involved in on the ground organising against military recruitment of youth, partiuclarly those at high schools I think that such actions are counter productive and ridiculous.

It's not a question of justification it's a question of effectiveness. I would of course support the rights of Iraqis to defend their homeland from American Imperialism, this however is not the same. It is not effective agitation amongst those who are considering joining the army to blow things up all it does is isolate the most advanced elements. In my expirience things like pickets of recruitment centres and the active disruption of recruitment in proccess is more effective, doesn't isolate people and allows you to engaged with those considering signing up. It also doesn't provoke a national chauvinist back lash.

At the current stage of sturggle in America such actions are entirely premature.

[bayano]

It depends on who bombed it and why. If, for example, it was some crazy righwing nutter bombing it in protest to homosexuals being permitted to join the armed forces, or something like that, then obviously that changes things.


hahaha, not much chance of that. lgbt folks are still banned from the US military.



As someone actually involved in on the ground organising against military recruitment of youth, partiuclarly those at high schools I think that such actions are counter productive and ridiculous.


I used to be very very active in counter recruitment and still do work on it. and i support this action.

and i agree, most militant struggle in the US would be wretchedly out of place at the present time (unfortunately), but i dont know that this is. and even if it is out of place, i still support it and actions like it for trying to radicalize the present times. better than campaigning for obama

[Lenin II]

I could give a good GODDAMN if its effective or not!
These imperialist butchers need to SPAT UPON by any and all means possible, from organized action to the "senseless" actions of the enraged masses against their taskmasters!

Most of us cannot even begin to imagine the significance of this act - the manifestation of years and years of quiet desperation suddenly exploding into a crescendo of anti-imperialist rage - and we want to "condemn" them by wagging our intellectual fingers at them like the proverbial Brainy Smurf of the village?

While these "lovers of freedom" are walking up to these stations and actually voluntering to kill and rape overseas for capitalist profits, and we want to sit back in our warm apartments and "debate" over whether or not this will CAUSE A REVOLUTION?

Wake up! This IS a revolution! One of perception, one of the mind!

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who does not wholly endorse vandalizing, opposing, terrorizing or exposing these pawns of the oppressor by any means necessary is a traitor to the cause.

[AGITprop]

Wake up! This IS a revolution! One of perception, one of the mind!

Really, because I haven't seen any mass labour movement. Let alone a revolutionary part leading the masses.

[AGITprop]

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who does not wholly endorse vandalizing, opposing, terrorizing or exposing these pawns of the oppressor by any means necessary is a traitor to the cause.

I guess that makes me a traitor as far as your concerned. By the way how far ARE you concerned?

[bolshevik butcher]

I used to be very very active in counter recruitment and still do work on it. and i support this action.

and i agree, most militant struggle in the US would be wretchedly out of place at the present time (unfortunately), but i dont know that this is. and even if it is out of place, i still support it and actions like it for trying to radicalize the present times. better than campaigning for obama
Why do you support it?

Campaigning for Obama, a representitive of the capitalist class and clearly a supporter of US impeiralism would be a complete waste of time I agree. On the otherhand a tiny group of people planting a bomb like this isn't getting the left anywhere either. It's not like they addressed the cause of military recruitment, or appealed to the mass of working class youth who are recruited.

Your argument is a false dilema. I can oppose both these incorrect methods and argue for the building of a movement of working class youth tied to the wider working class movement. Agitating against impieralism and military recruitment can be effective methods to do this and an effective way of trying to throw a spanner in the works of impeiralism.

People by and large aren't recruited to the rank and file of the military because they are evil imperialists as Lenin II imagines, they are economic conscripts. Fighting against military recruitment is actually a gate way into wider socialist ideas in that it allows us to pose the questions of why there aren't better jobs why there aren't higher wages and better training oppertunities, educaiton for all etc. Working class people are in the military because material coniditons have pushed them into it.

[Ferryman 5]

Why do you support it?

Campaigning for Obama, a representitive of the capitalist class and clearly a supporter of US impeiralism would be a complete waste of time I agree. On the otherhand a tiny group of people planting a bomb like this isn't getting the left anywhere either. It's not like they addressed the cause of military recruitment, or appealed to the mass of working class youth who are recruited.

Your argument is a false dilema. I can oppose both these incorrect methods and argue for the building of a movement of working class youth tied to the wider working class movement. Agitating against impieralism and military recruitment can be effective methods to do this and an effective way of trying to throw a spanner in the works of impeiralism.

People by and large aren't recruited to the rank and file of the military because they are evil imperialists as Lenin II imagines, they are economic conscripts. Fighting against military recruitment is actually a gate way into wider socialist ideas in that it allows us to pose the questions of why there aren't better jobs why there aren't higher wages and better training oppertunities, educaiton for all etc. Working class people are in the military because material coniditons have pushed them into it.


OK, but none of this is really the point. The point is that when the enemy (imperialism in any of its guises) loses control of anything it is supposed to be in control of we should not only rejoice but run in and kick the bastards in the head. We do not have to "support" the original attack but we must be able to find ways of exploiting the weakness that has been exposed ! Condemning other kinds of revolutionary opposition doesn't do that. Start explaining why smug arrogant capitalism can't run a peaceful world even when it was supposed to have won the "cold war" with communism. Why do people fly plains into the World Trade Centre if capitalism is so great? Begin explaining that!

[bolshevik butcher]

What? This is one of the most ignorant replies I have ever seen. You've not responded to my points at all. You appear to accuse me of justifying the continuation of capitalism and impeiralism for some reason as well which clearly isn't born out in my posts on revleft.

If you want to seriously disucss the contradictions of capitalist society and impeiralism then fair enough do so or start a thread and I will try and contribute to the disucssion. This attack didn't really expose weakness as far as I can see. What do you suggest we do? Instead of patient work, agitation, "patiently explainin" is the old Lenin cliche, we are to just try and bomb the US military out of existance with a few plotters? No, this attack has done nothing for us and at worst it could potentially strengthen the state and the ruling class' position and be used to justify repression.

[Ferryman 5]

What? This is one of the most ignorant replies I have ever seen. You've not responded to my points at all. You appear to accuse me of justifying the continuation of capitalism and impeiralism for some reason as well which clearly isn't born out in my posts on revleft.

If you want to seriously discuss the contradictions of capitalist society and imperialism then fair enough do so or start a thread and I will try and contribute to the discussion. This attack didn't really expose weakness as far as I can see. What do you suggest we do? Instead of patient work, agitation, "patiently explaining" is the old Lenin cliche, we are to just try and bomb the US military out of existence with a few plotters? No, this attack has done nothing for us and at worst it could potentially strengthen the state and the ruling class' position and be used to justify repression.

Exactly, as I said ,"OK, but none of this is really the point."
In the two paragraphs above you say nothing of any consequence. Try dealing with the world as it is now in its changing state. Not as your dogma dictates.

[bolshevik butcher]

What the fuck does that mean? If organising against an increasingly large and desperate campaign of military recruitment campaign in a manner that allows me to actually reach working class youth is dogmatic then im happy to continue being dogmatic.

What's dogmatic is your macho and romantic idea of going around blowing stuff up being the answer all the time that we can just look to some form of individual terrorism to get us out. It's never worked, even when there has been a mood of mass radicalisation in socety. We can only rely on the mass of the workers and youth, not an individual terrorist campaign to fight for a socailist revolution.

[Lector Malibu]

I was really impressed with what happened. I'm also someone who was once in the military and no longer have any political allegiances to them whatsoever.

[lombas]

New York, New York, U.S. - An early morning explosion blew out windows in the Time's Square Armed Forces Recruitment Center and shook buildings blocks away. No one was injured, but New York City police officers and firefighters now redirecting foot and vehicular traffic away from the area. The Time's Square subway station, a major hub that nearly a dozen train lines pass through was also shut down.



HURRAH!

[Lenin II]

Really, because I haven't seen any mass labour movement. Let alone a revolutionary part leading the masses.
I said it was a revolution of the MIND. It's one where people realize that they don't have to "Support the Troops," that they are not invincable and neither is the government.

It is also a lesson for the soldiers themselves - they can be killed as any other man.

[KurtFF8]

This tactic didn't work for the Weathermen and it won't work (especially in today's climate) for whomever is involved in this incident.

[Ferryman 5]

I said it was a revolution of the MIND. It's one where people realize that they don't have to "Support the Troops," that they are not invincable and neither is the government.

It is also a lesson for the soldiers themselves - they can be killed as any other man.

This is correct.

The working class in the dominant capitalist states will very quickly and very soon grow to understand that their job is to organise and defeat the armies of 'their own' states.

That is what revolution is.

[AGITprop]

I said it was a revolution of the MIND. It's one where people realize that they don't have to "Support the Troops," that they are not invincable and neither is the government.

It is also a lesson for the soldiers themselves - they can be killed as any other man.

This is called, class consciousness, and it is not attained by alienating the working class by blowing anything up. Do you really think that in a post-9/11 world, people will actually relate to terror tactics such as setting bombs off in downtown New York. Wake up! This is not a productive approach and condoning such behaviour only strengthens the working class alienation from the left.

[Lenin II]

This is called, class consciousness, and it is not attained by alienating the working class by blowing anything up. Do you really think that in a post-9/11 world, people will actually relate to terror tactics such as setting bombs off in downtown New York. Wake up! This is not a productive approach and condoning such behaviour only strengthens the working class alienation from the left.
This action merely SHOWS how the masses have NOT been alienated from the left! You will doubtlessly "condemn" it as "spontaniaty" until 100% of the population support and carry out moves such as this. As Ferryman said, this is what revolution is. Some people's class consciousness was raised enough to where they recognized the real enemies of their class and struck out against them.

[AGITprop]

This action merely SHOWS how the masses have NOT been alienated from the left! You will doubtlessly "condemn" it as "spontaniaty" until 100% of the population support and carry out moves such as this. As Ferryman said, this is what revolution is. Some people's class consciousness was raised enough to where they recognized the real enemies of their class and struck out against them.

You misunderstood me entirely. I was saying that if we condone such behaviour it will alienate the masses from us. We cannot show support for such actions at the present time because they are simply un-pro-duct-ive. You are right about one thing. Until the masses are on the streets and taking over the means of production, these actions serve as nothing more than fuel in the fire burning against the left, propagated by the ruling class, and for THIS reason, we cannot act in such a manner or support this behaviour.

[bcbm]

You misunderstood me entirely. I was saying that if we condone such behaviour it will alienate the masses from us. We cannot show support for such actions at the present time because they are simply un-pro-duct-ive. You are right about one thing. Until the masses are on the streets and taking over the means of production, these actions serve as nothing more than fuel in the fire burning against the left, propagated by the ruling class, and for THIS reason, we cannot act in such a manner or support this behaviour.

The state will always denigrate revolutionaries, its no reason to refrain from attack. We shouldn't try to hide the fact that we support violence in the form of class and anti-imperialist struggle. If anything, we should be vocal proponents of it so it can actually enter the mainstream of discussion about the war. People will come to support revolutionary ideas when supporters of those ideas help make their lives better and organize with them, not by revolutionaries pretending to be nice.

[AGITprop]

1) People will come to support revolutionary ideas when supporters of those ideas help make their lives better and organize with them,


2) not by revolutionaries pretending to be nice.


1) Of course, you are correct, we need to organize with them but,

2) ...never said be nice, but terrorist action is not the way to start.

[Ferryman 5]

People will come to support revolutionary ideas when supporters of those ideas help make their lives better and organize with them, not by revolutionaries pretending to be nice.

"People" are quite capable of organising themselves for all kinds of class action to "make their lives better" without supporting revolutionary ideas. Workers do not need left leaflets, pamphlets or newspapers telling them how to organise a picket for intimidating scabs. The job of revolutionaries is not to "help make their lives better" which is only really a vain reformist dream while capitalism holds the state power. the job of revolutionaries is to develop revolutionary understanding of the need to smash our own state. Not every idea or action in that fight will will be well thought through but that is no reason to condemn them.

For example, some on this thread are busy working against youths joining the military, but would it not be equally useful for revolutionaries to join-up "with them" and agitate for revolutionary understanding?

[bcbm]

I'm interested in dismantling capitalism and the state because I believe it will improve my life, and the lives of most on the planet and I don't see the first two happening without more individuals coming to the same realization. That isn't reformist.


never said be nice, but terrorist action is not the way to start.

How is this a start? The anti-war movement has been opposing the war for five years now and a variety of tactics have already been used.

[Ferryman 5]

I'm interested in dismantling capitalism and the state because I believe it will improve my life, and the lives of most on the planet and I don't see the first two happening without more individuals coming to the same realization. That isn't reformist.



How is this a start? The anti-war movement has been opposing the war for five years now and a variety of tactics have already been used.


Anti-war movements has never even come remotely close to achieving their stated objectives. Anti-capitalist movements have begun (French Rev, Russian Rev, Chinese Rev ,Cuban Rev etc) the process of dismantling capitalism even if we could not see before-hand what would happen.

We do not have to have all the answers to all questions before we attempt a change from the crap that is going on now. Demand that the existing bosses answer.

[AGITprop]

I'm interested in dismantling capitalism and the state because I believe it will improve my life, and the lives of most on the planet and I don't see the first two happening without more individuals coming to the same realization. That isn't reformist.



How is this a start? The anti-war movement has been opposing the war for five years now and a variety of tactics have already been used.

And its been hugely successful in stopping the government. It is an ideological flaw to believe that tactics that alienate the workers from the movement is going to change anything.

[Ferryman 5]

And its been hugely successful in stopping the government. It is an ideological flaw to believe that tactics that alienate the workers from the movement is going to change anything.

What an astonishingly absurder claim. The existing 'stop the war coalition' has quite obviously not stopped "the war." No such movement has ever had any success e.g. the CND(Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.) If you know differently, please tell me. I say it's a pacifist delusion and or a Stalinist peaceful coexistence policy. So exactly what has it ever stopped the government doing?

Can you not see it is exactly the tactics of the left that have been alienating workers, because they are peaceful coexistence tactics. Workers think the left is irrelevant because the left has no muscle and it has no muscle because its pacifist (in practice) reformist policies dictate that it should not have any muscle. Please wake up and smell the crisis.

[Black Cross]

Condone. No one died and it makes me laugh. Who cares if it doesn't spark class consciousness; not everything we do, or should do, is going to forward class consciousness. And as far as making "us" look bad goes, who said the far left took credit for this? And who's gonna assume it was us? And who gives a shit. We already look bad enough from the media and the textbooks. People are just plain brainwashed.


How does a small bomb stoop to the level of the US atrocity's in Iraq. More than 5 years of protesting the war, even before the war started and we are still at war. The majority of the people are against the war, this shows just how unpopular this war has become and we must acknowledge this as dialog.

Agreed. It's ridiculous that the majority of the country is appalled by this war, yet still it goes on... Democracy my ass.

[rouchambeau]

This certainly isn't a bad thing. No one was hurt, the anti-war movement got some publicity, and the military took a bit of a hit.

Also, I'd like to see someone qualify the claim that this action "alienated" workers from any sort of revolutionary activity.

[Ferryman 5]

This certainly isn't a bad thing. No one was hurt, the anti-war movement got some publicity, and the military took a bit of a hit.

Also, I'd like to see someone qualify the claim that this action "alienated" workers from any sort of revolutionary activity.

Same here.

If this action was so "alienating" of workers the state would surly be delighted and would want bombs going off in more recruiting offices just to discredit the 'left' and the anty war movement.

Either way this is a win win situation for the anti-imperialist revolution.