Question for the capitalists

[guerrillaradio]

Most of the people on this board advocate socialism or communism, but they claim that "true" socialism/communism has yet to be achieved in any country and that Russia, Cuba, China etc cannot be used as examples. Do you hold the same opinion of American and European etc capitalism?? Do you think that the American system is not true capitalism of the type you endorse or do you think the system is as it should be??

[Guest]

very brief response from augusto sandino:

american style capitalism is truer to form than any out there, but it too needs to evolve to a more efficient level. Treaties like nafta help do this. ALong with more effective internal regulation that will fault people and financial/economic entities for the extranalities they produce. Moreover the US needs more effective affirmative action to make sure that equality of opportunity is maintained. I would be infavor of academic affirmative action based on income and not race.

[Anarcho]

I feel that there is far too much governmental influence on business today.

America is close, and it's capitalist system was once almost there, but the growth of political influence in business today has corrupted the pure business.

The problem arises that any large business is going to attract political clout, based on money available to politicians, and regional influence.

Sadly, the only way to clear this out would be the elimination of government in general, but I still adhere to the thought that most people are not ready for that much freedom.

[reagan lives]

I think that capitalism is about progress and evolution, so by definition there is no "ideal system" that we can specifically describe as an objective hypothetical. Capitalism is about the constant improvement of efficiency. It's about adaptation. There will always be something that can be improved...Agusto's examples are good and relevant ones today. Today's American capitalism is stronger than it was before the civil rights movement, and the capitalism then was in turn better than the system before the New Deal. Capitalism is about progress, and therefore we will always and should always be able to talk about how it can be improved.

[pce]

"I would be infavor of academic affirmative action based on income and not race. "

hmm...that's interesting

[Moskitto]

What's New Deal in the US? Is it like over here where businesses join a programme to give young unemployed people jobs by created 1 extra job at each company.

[Anarcho]

I'm a tad shaky on it, but the US gov't created what were essentially make-work programs to creat jobs, paid for by the state and federal governments.

Usually it was public works, such as the Tennessee Valley Authority, and such.

It worked, until the economy could get back on its feet with private industry taking over the majority of the work... mostly due to a quickly growing war industry.

[James]

Capitalism, don't you all agree that its just like eating your self? Like starting at your feet...and you work your way up your body, it is progress, because you are getting full, but then you just die when theres nothing left (ie no more land to move into in real life). In fact thats a very shitty example. I'll think of a better way to get what i'm thinking across...later

[Moskitto]

That's a bit like new deal over here except it's private businesses over here instead of public organizations.

[ID2002]

Capitalism is a non sustainable economic system....people can never satisfy there desires, always wanting more, and more. The truth is that people can never have it all, its just not possiable. I say that we revisit the past to correct the future. Step away from Capitalism and take a look at Socialist countries and how much better off they are socially, economically, and politically.
For example:Canada: produces 45.2% of the worlds top recording/movie stars!! But it has a very small population in comparison to the US, and has far less money at its desposal. **Quality vs Quantity

[Guest]

not to mention canada's shitty socialized healthcare... privatize, privatize, privatize. america's system isn't perfect but it certainly is better than others... i'm telling you folks that self government is the way to go... http://www.cato.org

[Moskitto]

America's health system sucks.

The cost of insurance in the US is horrendous compared to Europe because the providers don't have to compete with a totally free service. Instead in the US, Ambulances check insurance details before picking people up. You need a free service to bring down the cost of insurance.

[rediska]

to "guest"
if I were you I wouldn't mention "Canada’s shitty healthcare", because it's the result of the government leaning more to the right and spending money to achieve zero-level inflation and reduce deficit, instead of putting the money into social programs. Twenty years ago when Canada was a much more socialized state then now, health care was much better.
besides, Canada still beats U.S. if you compare the social programs(even after 1995 cuts). Low income Americans are much worse off than low-income Canadians because the US social welfare system is so glaringly inadequate.
Off topic, I know, but I can't stand when people with right wing views say smth about "Canadian shitty health care" as an argument against socialism when the current crisis in the system is a result of the government leaning more towards the right.



“american style capitalism is truer to form than any out there, but it too needs to evolve to a more efficient level. Treaties like nafta help do this.” When I hear stuff like that I feel that I’m about to abandon all my views that our society should move to Socialism through evolution and go and fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha, James’ metaphor for Capitalism is relevant though a bit naive))

[Capitalist]

The USA is a great example of successful capitalism.

Unfortunately the far left create too many taxes.

Too many taxes create restrictions on the freedom of enterprise and capitalism.

This country was founded to free people from high taxes and unrepresentative government.

High Taxes

Unrepresentative Government

[Communist Dominion]

Well true capitalism or the first major type was liazze faire capitalism that had to be dumped because it was disastorious to the people, it made a few people very rich but at the expense of peoples lives and welfare.

[Anarcho]

The bit about the ambulance is wrong.... as a former health care worker, I can assure you that almost all hospitals have a policy to treat any that come in, and there is a plethora of government programs to help pay those bills, if the person is not well-off enough to own the incredibly overpriced health insurance these days.

[Kez]

I think its funny seeing you fat americans (lol, havnt sed that in a while) running around in stress mode all your lives, just so u can spend ur money on shit tv's so u can compare with your neighbour.
You people suck.
Over here in Europe, there are more relaxed people, as a result there are less dickheads over here

comrade kamo

[Guest]

redisko: i would say it's because of government intrustion in medical care, what the fuck is government doing there anyways?
TavareeshKamo: you seem pretty arrogant. who's comparing? you dont sound so "relaxed" to me... fact is, i'm pretty happy. i've got everything i want or need. life is good... wouldn't change things here... respects, nameless guest

[Communist Dominion]

No its true capitalists are very stressed, and it ends up for nothing because they suck anyway. But apart from that your health and schooling systems are appaling!

[IzmSchism]

Canada's health care system means well, compare it to a long line to collect food stamps, eventually you will get your fix, but say some dude at the very back is starving and another brother is at the front with a full belly, that is the way she goes, then you have Canadians flocking down to the states who will no doubtedly pay for an operation that could save their lives, yet cost them their livelihood. bad analogy, but whatever. And at the same time, all of the people who venture into the medical field end up going down to the states to cash in and get some pay back for a thankless job.

Capitalist society has created the conditions of liberation, however it has intensified the conditions of enslavement. The very form that the ownership of the means of production takes place in capitalism sharpens the class struggle to its peak. For as capitallism solidifies, it moves, becasuse of the profit motive, to the concentration of economic control into fewer and fewer hands. The mass of mankind is cut off from control over the conditions of its own work as it is cut off from any control over the means of production. The contradiction that capitalsit society creates is that it has produced the possibility of overcoming scarcity -- that is, the conditions for overcoming class dominance and inequality have arrived; yet at the same time it has chained the mass of men to uncreative labour, work for which they have no responsibility. It has taken to the extreme the division between the owners of the economic apparatus and servants of that apparatus. In sucha a situation where liberation is possible and where alienation is actual, there can only be one result. The mass of men will not allow themselves to be excluded from the liberation that technology has now opened for them. They will take the means of production out of private control and place them under social control. They will destroy capitalism and create socialism. In this new society, men will no longer be be for each other objests of economic exploitation. (Grant,)

Capitalism is the breeding ground for Socialism, it just will take some time

[Communist Dominion]

Capitalism doesnt deal with scarcity, it deals to the highest bidder and sweeps the poor under the carpet, another misconception is that in the USSR to get food you qued for hours and got little, well actually this did happen in WW2 soviet times, (becasue the US saw alot of the allied soviet communication but in the prime days of communism they saw little) but after they instituted the equivilent to modern day supermarkets, food was not a scarce thing that people fought over, since many foods were mass mass MASS MASS produced they were quite abundent, like bread, a russian family would receive between 6-7 loaves of bread a week, now this isnt bcause all they had is bread, look at the rusian diet, pork potatoes, roots and bread, and they like it, they were well supplied.

[Anarcho]

How about cars? What was the process to get a Zil?

Or a computer?

Or VCR and tapes?

These things may not be necessities, but they are nice to have. And I can't think of a reason they would be dis-allowed at all.

so what's the story there?

[Solzhenitsyn]

GuerillaRadio:

Some people feel that the US isn't capitalist enough. Usually called Libertarians in the US, they think that all government agencies and programs should be abolished except for minimal defense. Government should be strictly regulated to the task of apprehending criminals and enforcing contracts. There are also anarcho-capitalists who want to abolish all goverments and replace them with multiple insurance companies that would fight crime and provide job loss assistance. If they don't, they're losing profit when they make a payout to a victimized subcriber. They both take capitalism to the extreme. I personally don't feel that capitalism is quite that dogmatic.