Hypocrisy, Dissent, and the Bill of Rights

[Coffee Mug]

Has anyone recognized some of the wrong things done in this forum alone?
Does anyone take notice of the need for dissent and commentary by opposition in this forum?

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The single thing I have always admired about the USA is The Bill of Rights;
It is the most respectable thing inscribed within the rules and limitations of the United States.

I believe that The Bill of Rights should be a worldwide agreement.
We, also need to give these assumed rights to all else in the world and allow these freedoms.


-The stability of Capitalism and the United States can be attributed to it's way of dealing with dissent and opposing ideas.
They have formulated, perhaps by mistake, a way to actually absorb the impact of dissent; and [I]benefit from it.

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I loathe the idea of restrictions in a forum.
This idea has no integrity.
To leave out those with different ideas is unthinkable in my view and is ironically, ignorant oftheir views.

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Hypocrisy is also very prevailent.
The use of a hierarchy, select groups, and restrictions support the 'Do as I say, not as I do' stereotype of leftists...

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We need to expose failures and patch flaws in our system and way of doing things.

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I take great influence from Noam Chomsky


Do As I Say (Not As I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy
by Noam Chomsky

' If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.'
Noam Chomsky

[Ele'ill]

Has anyone recognized some of the wrong things done in this forum alone?
Does anyone take notice of the need for dissent and commentary by opposition in this forum?

They recognize their wrongs. They feel as though they're too good to admit that some of our ideas are good. And by 'our' I mean everyone that's restricted or banned.



I loathe the idea of restrictions in a forum.
This idea has no integrity.
To leave out those with different ideas is unthinkable in my view and is ironically, ignorant oftheir views.

Start a Free Mari3L thread in the main sections.



Hypocrisy is also very prevailent.
The use of a hierarchy, select groups, and restrictions support the 'Do as I say, not as I do' stereotype of leftists...

You have it wrong. Its 'Do as that guy said in a book 150 years ago'.


We need to expose failures and patch flaws in our system and way of doing things.

I'm glad I'm not the only reformist on the boards. Also, get ready to be restricted.


I think the main issue is that an internet forum is already a system which people can abuse easily. The only way to control spamming and trolling is by restricting certain members. The problem with this is that the kOmMiE kLuB's votes in the past have been to restrict regular posters that see flaws in how the left operates.

[Demogorgon]

The restriction system here certainly has its flaws, but you must realise that the only alternative would have to be to ban users with opposing political views. This is a website for leftist discussion, not general pan-political discussion, hence the main sites have to include only leftists. The alternative, that has been tried before, is to let everyone post everywhere and the upshot of that is that it no longer becomes possible to have a leftist website at all because every thread turns into a debate about the merits of Communism rather than an opportunity for people of different leftist positions to debate issues relevant to ourselves.

On the other hand this site is pretty unique in that it does not ban people with opposing views. It simply restricts them to this section. That way more wide ranging debate can still go on while we get to discuss amongst ourselves on the rest of the board.

That being said, I think this board restricts people far too often for very spurious reasons. But in principle the system does work, and in practice offers a better system than many other boards manage.

[Ele'ill]

On the other hand this site is pretty unique in that it does not ban people with opposing views. It simply restricts them to this section. That way more wide ranging debate can still go on while we get to discuss amongst ourselves on the rest of the board.

So when I want to know which beer my commie friends are toasting with I have to create a thread in OI and within minutes watch it get moved to another area where I cannot respond.

Leftists such as anarchists and communists are a minority in the real world. The real opposition that they will face will not be from other leftists but from everyone else. I am a lower class worker. Shouldn't they want to hear my concerns?

They can pat each other on the back as much as they want but from my experience on this board the internal debates are lacking.

[Demogorgon]

So when I want to know which beer my commie friends are toasting with I have to create a thread in OI and within minutes watch it get moved to another area where I cannot respond.

Leftists such as anarchists and communists are a minority in the real world. The real opposition that they will face will not be from other leftists but from everyone else. I am a lower class worker. Shouldn't they want to hear my concerns?

They can pat each other on the back as much as they want but from my experience on this board the internal debates are lacking.
What do you suggest? That we essentially give up the board here that many people enjoy and replace in solely with an expanded OI?

The fact of the matter very clearly is that we do not censor opposing views, as they can be aired freely in this section.

At the end of the day though the rest of this board is for Communists, anarchists and other assorted leftists. When we let them post across the whole board, the whole board doesn't work. Similarly simply kicking them off the board and not letting them post at all is censorship and an attempt to insulate ourselves from criticism, which is just as bad.

OI is the compromise position. If you have something better on offer, I am all ears, I am always the first to support improvements tot his site, but for the life of me, I can not think how to make the restriction system better other than restricting fewer people.

[pusher robot]

OI is the compromise position. If you have something better on offer, I am all ears, I am always the first to support improvements tot his site, but for the life of me, I can not think how to make the restriction system better other than restricting fewer people.

I have something better to suggest:
Restricted users should not be banned from posting in other forums, they should be moderated. This would allow them to contribute constructive comments while still shielding the forums from unwanted arguments and preventing trolling. Perhaps also a restricted user who achieves a certain reputation level should be allowed to reply to topics without moderation but not create new ones.

[careyprice31]

I have something better to suggest:
Restricted users should not be banned from posting in other forums, they should be moderated. This would allow them to contribute constructive comments while still shielding the forums from unwanted arguments and preventing trolling. Perhaps also a restricted user who achieves a certain reputation level should be allowed to reply to topics without moderation but not create new ones.

The forum would perhaps have to expand and hire new moderators for that as that would involve more work. (I know this, I am a moderator at another forum i know what it involves)

also, how could the mods make sure the comments arent those that turn threads into communism vs capitalism threads?

If a person with an OI did post it would have to be pretty neutral, they arent left wing, and they couldnt post right wing views, because that would make it a left vs right thread instead of us leftists discussing amongst ourselves.

So what else u do suggest Pusher robot, to solve this?

[pusher robot]

The forum would perhaps have to expand and hire new moderators for that as that would involve more work. (I know this, I am a moderator at another forum i know what it involves)

also, how could the mods make sure the comments arent those that turn threads into communism vs capitalism threads?

If a person with an OI did post it would have to be pretty neutral, they arent left wing, and they couldnt post right wing views, because that would make it a left vs right thread instead of us leftists discussing amongst ourselves.

So what else u do suggest Pusher robot, to solve this?

I think it would be humorously ironic if a communist website was unable to field a few volunteers to do some easy work that would benefit the entire community.

I wouldn't see any problem if moderated posts were rejected for being off-topic, or for being argumentative. But I think it's an extreme position that a restricted person (keeping in mind that people are frequently restricted for having a single disagreeing opinion) can never have something interesting or insightful to say. The mods, being (I assume) members of the commie club, ought to be able to filter out contributions that do not promote the tone of the discussion they want.

[careyprice31]

I think it would be humorously ironic if a communist website was unable to field a few volunteers to do some easy work that would benefit the entire community.

. But I think it's an extreme position that a restricted person (keeping in mind that people are frequently restricted for having a single disagreeing opinion) can never have something interesting or insightful to say. The mods, being (I assume) members of the commie club, ought to be able to filter out contributions that do not promote the tone of the discussion they want.

I'd have to agree. I said in another thread responding to ur post that I do believe OI's can be very valuable members and contribute even if they are oi's.

It isnt my forum though, its Malte's.

If the members of the cc and the admins and mods agree to it, I'd volunteer to do some of the volunteer work of filtering out the off topic/argumentative posts. Id be happy to volunteer to help.

I'd work with another mod (or five or so or however many there are who have control of one) to mod one of the subforums, keeping in mind that subforums are too big and too many people make posts for just one or two mods to do the work.

[pusher robot]

I'd work with another mod (or five or so or however many there are who have control of one) to mod one of the subforums, keeping in mind that subforums are too big and too many people make posts for just one or two mods to do the work.

It would only be restricted users whose posts would be moderated though. That's only a fraction of all the posts that are made.

[Demogorgon]

I have something better to suggest:
Restricted users should not be banned from posting in other forums, they should be moderated. This would allow them to contribute constructive comments while still shielding the forums from unwanted arguments and preventing trolling. Perhaps also a restricted user who achieves a certain reputation level should be allowed to reply to topics without moderation but not create new ones.

That may well be a good idea. There are proposals from time to time to extend where restricted members can post. Allowing you to post in other sections on the basis of moderator approval could potentially work.

[Ele'ill]

I mentioned a similar idea about a year ago and it was a no go.



I would be willing to moderate a 'fermented beverage' section of the site even though I'm a restricted member.

[Coffee Mug]

That may well be a good idea. There are proposals from time to time to extend where restricted members can post. Allowing you to post in other sections on the basis of moderator approval could potentially work.

In my opinion, the best change happens from the bottom up the chain of hierarchy.

Maybe hold an appeal and consult with some Commie Club members and others about a Restricted Members reform in other threads?
(terrible choice of wording; but I can't think of anything else at the moment.)

[Joby]

There's a lot of stuff, particuliarly International issues, that seem to get passed over in OI in favor of the Communism vs Capitalism debate (in which I often play devil's advocate for idea's I don't, personally, subscribe to).

An idea might be to have Restricted Users have button on their post which any member can press to report it to a mod. That would alleviate the pressure on the mod, and allow informants to take shoot up any red flags :D

But, of course, it's your all's forum, just thought it'd be a good idea.

[Ele'ill]

There's a lot of stuff, particuliarly International issues, that seem to get passed over in OI in favor of the Communism vs Capitalism debate (in which I often play devil's advocate for idea's I don't, personally, subscribe to).

An idea might be to have Restricted Users have button on their post which any member can press to report it to a mod. That would alleviate the pressure on the mod, and allow informants to take shoot up any red flags :D

But, of course, it's your all's forum, just thought it'd be a good idea.

I agree with this.

Although the button idea would be abused by some of the immature children on the board such as Jazzrat.

[Bud Struggle]

Personally, I wouldn't want to disrupt any internal arguments or discussions about the nature and theory of Communism between Communists. Those discussions should take place in secure environs. But, I wouldn't mind posting in the Music and the Plastic and Graphic Arts section--maybe in all the Cultural area. I think I might have some interesting things to contribute on those subjects.

Tom

[Coffee Mug]

Half of the forums aren't even political...