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View Full Version : Spasiba's Coming of (leftist) Age continues!



Spasiba
5th March 2008, 21:39
Yeah, me again, more questions!


A few things brought up in a class of mine that beg me to ask questions:
(Mind you, this was a Western Civilization course, so perhaps it was just meant historically)

1. Businesses always will make more money when the government doesn't intervene.
Understandable, but probably because the profit is born out of exploitation. But the thought occured to me, then, is how is the economy to grow? Then, maybe I just don't understand and a leftist economy is different, and if so, tell me, but the fact that right now, a growing economy is good, and that what we believe in seems like it would harm the economy (a point that I see frequently brought up by the right) and thus would be bad for the community as a whole. Is this at all true?

2. Businesses tend to run things more effeciently and with better profits than the government can.
Pretty much the same as the above statement.



other thoughts:
3. Machines are supposed to take over difficult labor after the revolution, but how do we make sure this happens smoothly enough that people aren't left unemployed? It is awkward, though, that we want machines (well most of us anyway) to do labor, but at the same time, in today's world, this is a serious problem because it does leave people unemployed but without compensation.

4. I see this point brought up all the time: "What if, for example, someone starts growing food in their own backyard and starts selling it, would that not create inequality?"
Well, I see 2 things wrong with this: 1. Food shouldn't be a problem, why would you need more? problem here being, people like food, so that's not necessarily the case 2. Someone making more money than another isn't a problem.. Right? But this is just one example of a certain problem: People creating the possibily to exploit others: what if this becomes some kind of farm where people may be paid more; gaining more money than otherwise is possible. Now don't limit this to just this garden example, but the general thought of it is what I'm troubled with.

5. Music, art, all that, as I understand it, would be more abundant as more people would have time to do it, and because it isn't about money, wouldn't be pressured when making it. Correct?

6. Limited supplies. How do we distribute that? Say there is an epidemic and only so much of a cure. What do we do? What if people want a certain type of car but enough don't exist? Now of course more can be produced, but the thing that keeps bugging me is the thought of the USSR's experience with this, with over and under production for things people didn't or did want, respectively. Who do we make sure that doesn't happen? I hear stories of malls being made, but nothing put in to them (this is a specific example I've gotten from an Eastern European), not enough shoes (IDK if its true) etc. Capitalism creates tons of cars, and thus there is no waiting period, unlike in the USSR. What do we do to not run into these problems? I guess what I'm saying is, how do we measure demand? And how do we deal with limited supply?


By the way, I know some times I may sound capitalist and such, but please understand I'm playing devil's advocate sometimes or asking honest questions I just really need the answer to. If I'm going to be a Lefty I must understand it, right?



Oh, and a rant: How can anyone seriously view North Korea and Cambodia as communist countries? Pol Pot was a huge fucker that decided to kill smart people and those wearing glasses, needless to say, thats idiotic beyond words. Kim Jung-il and his father? Everytime I see their pretty little faces (such as peoples avatars on Soviet Empire) I want to punch this screen. God dammit! Who wants to blindy follow a leader who cares only for his own looks?! Oh, and Jim Jones. Why is there a group that dares call itself communist and likes him at the same time? Dammit all....

More to come, I'm sure.:cool:

Schrödinger's Cat
5th March 2008, 22:28
1. Businesses always will make more money when the government doesn't intervene.
Understandable, but probably because the profit is born out of exploitation. But the thought occured to me, then, is how is the economy to grow? Then, maybe I just don't understand and a leftist economy is different, and if so, tell me, but the fact that right now, a growing economy is good, and that what we believe in seems like it would harm the economy (a point that I see frequently brought up by the right) and thus would be bad for the community as a whole. Is this at all true?Not always. Sometimes laws that supposedly account for social ramifications are backed by corporations and other forms of big enterprise to prevent competition. This actually accounts for a larger return on the existing firms.

Growth is another irrelevant buzzword. The US stock market has experienced magnificent growth in the past 30 years, but wages have actually stagnated, and are now in the process of falling. The only exception came during the height of dot-com book, but that quickly evaporated in 2000-2001. Leftists are interested in purely material conclusions. Are people's livelihoods improving? Sure, we have better gadgets, but when it's harder to afford health care, housing, gasoline, and your prospect of private and state pensions is diminishing - can you really call that progress?

Socialism is aimed at meeting the needs of people.


2. Businesses tend to run things more effeciently and with better profits than the government can.
Pretty much the same as the above statement.
A few points. The government doesn't (supposedly) run on profits. This is the largest distinguishable difference between state-operations and corporations. In effect, corporations run almost exactly like government entities - top-down. Socialism would have enterprises run (largely) bottom-up. Most people don't complain about the efficiency of their mailman, or their firefighters, or their police. Furthermore, the notion of competition being completely snubbed out is a myth. People would still compete to produce the best products and services; however firms would not.


3. Machines are supposed to take over difficult labor after the revolution, but how do we make sure this happens smoothly enough that people aren't left unemployed? It is awkward, though, that we want machines (well most of us anyway) to do labor, but at the same time, in today's world, this is a serious problem because it does leave people unemployed but without compensation.Unlike capitalism where machines would inevitably lead to mass unemployment (unless compensated with new tasks), under socialism automation means reduction in work hours. Those who were previously employed in a now defunct field of labor could be retrained. Two (or three, our for) take over the job of one. This progression is thought to lead us into communism.


4. I see this point brought up all the time: "What if, for example, someone starts growing food in their own backyard and starts selling it, would that not create inequality?"
Well, I see 2 things wrong with this: 1. Food shouldn't be a problem, why would you need more? problem here being, people like food, so that's not necessarily the case 2. Someone making more money than another isn't a problem.. Right? But this is just one example of a certain problem: People creating the possibily to exploit others: what if this becomes some kind of farm where people may be paid more; gaining more money than otherwise is possible. Now don't limit this to just this garden example, but the general thought of it is what I'm troubled with.
The market won't disappear within a day anymore than feudalism suddenly got replaced with capitalism. While the French Revolution effectively led to the destruction of forced class systems, there was already a long history of the merchant class rising up and competing against the landed aristocrats. If someone wants to sell their own food from their own garden, so be it. They'll have to compete against the prices established by workers' councils anyway. The lower stage of communism is still accompanied by class differences, but the workers are in control - meaning that participatory economics is the dominant mode of production. In the later stages when money has been effectively abolished, all distinguishable classes are gone. One couldn't "buy and sell" when there doesn't exist capital in the first place.

I have to leave now. Sorry that I couldn't respond to everything.

Spasiba
16th March 2008, 07:23
Thank you for what you were able to add!


....bump...