Class Division

[Forward Union]

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5254/classor8.jpg

Discuss.

[Demogorgon]

What city is that from?

[spartan]

That picture says it all really doesnt it, absolutely disgusting:mad:

Capitalism is such an unjustifiable system.

[Sankofa]

If there's one picture that defines what Capitalism is; this is it.

[Vahanian]

I think that from mexico somewere. that picture is horrible

[Os Cangaceiros]

That's definitely a powerful image.

[Holden Caulfield]

is it not Sao Paulo i saw a video that had such shocking divisions such as this about Sao Paulo,

i say we bomb the fuckers, that or at least go Robin Hood on their asses

[Red_or_Dead]

...what happens when a tennis ball accidentaly flies to the slum? You think that the bastards try and get it back?

[Forward Union]

...what happens when a tennis ball accidentaly flies to the slum? You think that the bastards try and get it back?

I think they can afford a new one.

[RebelDog]

Its not just pictures that are shocking:

"A record 1,125 individuals with a combined net worth of $4.4 trillion made it into Forbes' 2008 list of billionaires."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7280569.stm

A rotten clique of only 1,125 people have $4.4 trillion in combined wealth. Its very expensive this 'class society' isn't it?

[Green Dragon]

Those poor bastards. Imagine paying all that money for a view of a slum.

[careyprice31]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

In this case, 9000 words about how bad capitalism is.

[F9]

thats far more than sick.In that town there maybe be people without a place to live and where 1000 homes could build they fu*king build one hottel.

Fuserg9:star:

[Bright Banana Beard]

Homeless, police, sweat-working people, poverty, famine, etc.. This is a glorious example of how successful capitalism is.

[Dejavu]

Evil Rich People :cursing:

I was gonna ask Mr. 'Defender of the Poor' ( the poster) where this is exactly.
It looks like there is no actual road dividing the resort from the slum. Look at the main tennis court and how it looks very curious on the bottom part of it. Is there an actual wall separating the two areas?

If the picture is authentic (I want a location with a story) the right hand side doesn't even appear to be an actual residence and most people in the world wouldn't be able to afford to live there. Rather, it appears to be some kind of vacation resort.

If that is the case then the slum was a slum before the resort was there. ( Pic still looks fishy though.) Actually, I could be wrong in a particular case about that. But in that case obviously the slum or government management of that country couldn't finance a resort like that and thus I can be certain that the funding for such a resort came from foreign capital investment.

My question is why would foreigners want to invest a resort that blends right in with a slum? Doesn't seem wise. And this might make me retract my previous statement that the slum was already there. IF the picture is authentic, it could've happened that the capital invested into this country caused the locals to actually have work available to them instead of starving in some other hole of a poorly managed country( especially economy), and they moved near the resort. In this case its likely they have some kind of job function for the resort which is great for them, it gives them an industry to grow in. It doesn't happen over night.

I was in Indonesia twice. Both times I stayed ( 2002 and 2004). I stayed at the Hard Rock hotel which was pretty new the first time I went. It seemed a little odd that the hotel grounds were distinctly nicer than some of the inner streets where the Indonesians live. But the entire staff of the hotel were Indonesians and its a pretty sweet job when you think about it considering some of the benefits they told me they get.
So I returned in 2004 and guess what happened to the more run down streets? The physical streets are still there but the shoddy look is gone. Same old Indonesians living there but the residences and businesses of Indonesians in the area are something akin to the 'first world.' The capital inflow from tourism improved conditions. Two years and a noteworthy change for the positive.

I can imagine what that beautiful area from which mostly Indonesians benefit now, would look like without the capital investment. Typical slum and prostitution, murder, drugs, would be the norm just to make ends meat. Thank god for those evil capitalists ! I know thats what Bali Indonesians think. :laugh:

[Ele'ill]

Evil Rich People :cursing:

I was gonna ask Mr. 'Defender of the Poor' ( the poster) where this is exactly.
It looks like there is no actual road dividing the resort from the slum. Look at the main tennis court and how it looks very curious on the bottom part of it. Is there an actual wall separating the two areas?

If the picture is authentic (I want a location with a story) the right hand side doesn't even appear to be an actual residence and most people in the world wouldn't be able to afford to live there. Rather, it appears to be some kind of vacation resort.

If that is the case then the slum was a slum before the resort was there. ( Pic still looks fishy though.) Actually, I could be wrong in a particular case about that. But in that case obviously the slum or government management of that country couldn't finance a resort like that and thus I can be certain that the funding for such a resort came from foreign capital investment.

My question is why would foreigners want to invest a resort that blends right in with a slum? Doesn't seem wise. And this might make me retract my previous statement that the slum was already there. IF the picture is authentic, it could've happened that the capital invested into this country caused the locals to actually have work available to them instead of starving in some other hole of a poorly managed country( especially economy), and they moved near the resort. In this case its likely they have some kind of job function for the resort which is great for them, it gives them an industry to grow in. It doesn't happen over night.

I was in Indonesia twice. Both times I stayed ( 2002 and 2004). I stayed at the Hard Rock hotel which was pretty new the first time I went. It seemed a little odd that the hotel grounds were distinctly nicer than some of the inner streets where the Indonesians live. But the entire staff of the hotel were Indonesians and its a pretty sweet job when you think about it considering some of the benefits they told me they get.
So I returned in 2004 and guess what happened to the more run down streets? The physical streets are still there but the shoddy look is gone. Same old Indonesians living there but the residences and businesses of Indonesians in the area are something akin to the 'first world.' The capital inflow from tourism improved conditions. Two years and a noteworthy change for the positive.

;)

The only other thing that I'd argue is that it isn't a slum at all, and only appears to be because of the roof colors, and close proximity of the houses to each other. Give us the story behind the photograph, the photographer, website where photo was found etc...



So I returned in 2004 and guess what happened to the more run down streets? The physical streets are still there but the shoddy look is gone. Same old Indonesians living there but the residences and businesses of Indonesians in the area are something akin to the 'first world.' The capital inflow from tourism improved conditions. Two years and a noteworthy change for the positive.

The problem is that the roads were fixed to appease the tourist industry. The indonesians will only benefit from changes that are made to 'better' the tourist areas.

[Forward Union]

This'll have to be short as im off out now but...


If the picture is authentic (I want a location with a story) the right hand side doesn't even appear to be an actual residence and most people in the world wouldn't be able to afford to live there. Rather, it appears to be some kind of vacation resort.

I am not sure where the picture is from, but I didn't want a discussion about it so much as the issue it raises. The picture is authentic, I've seen it before on a news article (I'll look for it) but If I don't find it it doesn't we don't need to agree it's authenticity it doesn't matter, these two places do both exist, distance is immaterial.


It doesn't happen over night.

Or a decade, or ever, because as soon as wages get too high (which happens after companies move into impoverished areas) they move out, to the next impoverished area. Thats how globalization works :)


But the entire staff of the hotel were Indonesians

This raises a million issues. The workers are impoverished Indonesians as you point out, the business owners are rich foreigners. The wealth of the foreign investors is made from the labour of the Indonesians whose initial poverty is a result of capitalism. It's not their own fault they are poor, it's the global economies.

Furthermore Indonesia is a unique example as it's actually an imperialist nation. It is occupying west Papua and (essentially) stealing is resources, primarily from it's oil supplies. It kills people for flying the West papuan, tortures and imprisons them. http://www.freewestpapua.org/ (http://www.freewestpapua.org/) (not that I fully endorse that link, although I have met Benny Wenda)




So I returned in 2004 and guess what happened to the more run down streets? The physical streets are still there but the shoddy look is gone. Same old Indonesians living there but the residences and businesses of Indonesians in the area are something akin to the 'first world.' The capital inflow from tourism improved conditions. Two years and a noteworthy change for the positive.

The problem is that the roads were fixed to appease the tourist industry. The indonesians will only benefit from changes that are made to 'better' the tourist areas.


Furthermore, as the area get's richer, the poorer people are forced out by rising house prices, so the rich move into the newly getrified areas, demanding better services, better policing etc, pushing poorer people further away. It happens in England aswell. It's happening in my town now.

[careyprice31]

I have a friend from Indonesia.

It should be noted that Indonesia once belonged to the Dutch, who in the 16th and 17th centuries were an imperialistic nation.

Imperialists invest in the third world to make use of the labor of thosse people and the countries.

Of course the roads and so on got better looking and so on. It is to the benefit of the capitalists to NOT have the place looking like a slum. If nobody visited, the capitalists wouldnt make profit.

It should also be noted that imperialistic colonial countries, it is to their benefit to keep the third world dependent on them. I'd be willing to bet that a big part of why the third world lags so far behind the first world is due to colonialism, imperialism and the capitalism of those countries. It should be U give a person a fish, but then u teach them how to fish so they can take care of themselves. In the colonial case though, it is to their benefit to not teach them how to care for themselves, and is the reason why they are so far behind in the 21st century.

It is to their benefit to keep the third world dependent on them. Charity goes over and thorws out billions of dollars, but that does not solve the direct roots which created the problems in the first place.

In order to do that the system needs to be changed and charities reform, they do not advocate real change.

[Jazzratt]

Evil Rich People :cursing:

I was gonna ask Mr. 'Defender of the Poor' ( the poster) where this is exactly. [blah, de fucking blah]

:laugh: I love cappies. "Holy shit, poor people don't exist - you made them up in photo shop!!!!!!"

[Bud Struggle]

True picture. It most likely has been photoshopped, but only in terms of mileage. It is very much how life is lived in the United States--and most certainly the rest of the world, "Comminist" countries like China included.

I don't think there is--OR CAN BE--any real equality in this world. The dream of which is a chimera. It's a lovely dream, but not a real one.

It's not a economic issue, it's an intellectual and psychological issue. Some people are smart and want more stuff. That to me is human nature.

[RNK]

There is a similar photo from Israel's apartheid wall showing a bustling, brand-new highway filled with commuters and freight trucks and such, and just on the other side of the wall is a filthy, barren ghetto.

Perfect equality may be a dream. But what we've got now is a nightmare.

(booyah, that was a nice pun)

[Dejavu]

I love cappies. "Holy shit, poor people don't exist - you made them up in photo shop!!!!!!"Almost as bad a commies " You bastard, how dare you insist PEOPLE HAVE TO WORK!!!"

"Whadya mean people have to pay for stuff?"

[Sentinel]

It's not a economic issue, it's an intellectual and psychological issue. Some people are smart and want more stuff. That to me is human nature. There would be at least an ounce of truth in the above statement, if capitalism allowed for equal starting positions. Ie, provided all children with the same high quality education, growing up environment, healthcare. Or, if it even provide all children with the same amount of daily nutrition.

That of course goes against the nature of capitalism. Not even social-democratic, capitalist welfare states such as Sweden can provide all this. Because, in this brave new globalised world, if a reformist leftist government imposes too high taxes on the industry, it will outsource it's production abroad or even migrate entirely. Hence they can't do that.

Capitalism allows only for very limited democratic rights, the Price system and total democracy are mutually exclusive.

And this is only one of the reasons why capitalism is unable to provide an equal or fair society, by it's very nature. State-capitalist countries such as Cuba manage better in providing welfare, as the industry is managed by the state in a planned fashion, but then other -- mostly scarcity-related -- problems emerge instead.

Nope, equality will not be a reality anywhere, before capitalism and currency are entirely abolished worldwide, and replaced with more advanced forms of production, distribution and exchange.

[careyprice31]

True picture. It most likely has been photoshopped, but only in terms of mileage. It is very much how life is lived in the United States--and most certainly the rest of the world, "Comminist" countries like China included.

I don't think there is--OR CAN BE--any real equality in this world. The dream of which is a chimera. It's a lovely dream, but not a real one.

It's not a economic issue, it's an intellectual and psychological issue. Some people are smart and want more stuff. That to me is human nature.

Everything we have ever had was considered unrealistic dream at one point. Your post proves nothing, really. Sorry if i am rude but its true.

.The greatest dreams are always unrealistic.

[Hiero]

Almost as bad a commies " You bastard, how dare you insist PEOPLE HAVE TO WORK!!!"

"Whadya mean people have to pay for stuff?"

What?