THE VALERA PROJECT

[Capitalist]

THE VALERA PROJECT = PETITION FOR FREEDOM

Such a procedure is foreseen in the Cuban Constitution: If at least 10,000 voters sign such a demand, the National Assembly must consider it. Here in Cuba there is only one party, the Communist Party. The media express only the Communist Party’s views. The Communist Party directs the only trade union. The Varela Project referendum would contain five proposals whose eventual approval would change the laws to guarantee some constitutional rights:

For the first time in 42 years we, the citizens of Cuba, are demanding to take our fate in our own hands. All over the island, people are signing a demand for a referendum called the Varela Project.

The VARELA PROJECT would convert into law, the following rights:

1. Freedom of speech
2. Freedom of communication media
3. Freedom of enterprise/CAPITALISM - a citizen’s right to own enterprises, something that at present is a prerogative only for foreigners.
4. Free Elections and an immediate new election (since elections have been unconstitutional and unfair since 1959 when Fidel took power) It proposes for consideration an amendment to the Electoral Law No. 72 - to allow for free elections (currently only the communist party is allowed to run in elections),
5. It requests political amnesty for political prisoners and new elections.

The project proposes that the laws change and give us the freedom of expression and association, a multiparty system, free press, free trade unions and other freedoms that are obvious in a democratic system but that we do not enjoy in Cuba.

The project asks that political prisoners--many of them serving heavy sentences for having tried to exercise freedom of opinion—be freed.

Here in Cuba, private enterprise is a privilege reserved FOR FORIEGNORS ONLY (Which is why the United States wants nothing to do with free trade in Cuba). The project proposes to change the laws so that Cubans could own and run private businesses.

Current election law provides for one candidate per seat in parliament, proposed by organizations controlled by the Communist Party. A new electoral law that the project demands would guarantee to Cubans the right to freely elect their parliament.

The project also asks for free elections to be held a year after the approval of the referendum.

Imagine the logistics difficulties of gathering signatures in a country without public-access photocopy machines; where you cannot buy a train ticket without a national ID, or a piece of bread without a ration booklet; where a “neighborhood watch group” called Committee of the Defense of the Revolution (CDR = Cuban Gestapo), will denounce any Cuban who offers hospitality to a foreigner.

Fortunately, the Varela Project has got the support of Todos Unidos (All United) a grouping of more than 100 independent organizations—which the government, of course, considers illegal—such as the Christian Movement Liberation.

In the past month, thanks to the activists of Todos Unidos, thousands of petition forms with the Varela Project demands were circulating throughout the island. For security reasons, the forms are passed among only family, friends, neighbors and some religious communities.

It is to be expected that the Cuban authorities will do all they can to avoid the referendum. But even if our movement is not wholly successful, it is worth the effort because it is uniting and galvanizing the population.

LONG LIVE FREEDOM & DEMOCRACY

[guerrillaradio]

Too right...every country should have a free press, freedom of speech and free elections. I also commend the release of all political prisoners, although I wasn't previously aware of any. In fact, the only political prisoners I know of on Cuba are those in Guatamano Bay, who are most likely secretly being tried while our backs are turned...

[Guest]

Guerillio Radio, are you supporting this Nazi?
First let him proof that he isn't talking shit!

[guerrillaradio]

I'm not supporting anyone or anything, and I am yet to see any evidence of Capitalist being a Nazi, although I don't doubt that it is a possibility. I just feel that one of the basic rights of a human being is the right to talk as s/he pleases without restrictions being placed upon him/her by authorities.

[Capitalist]

If anyone is close to being NAZI it would have to be the Communists.

Both believe in restricting Freedoms that may harm their ideology

Both believe in banning all opponent political parties

Both believe in censoring media to reflect their views and their views only.

Both utilize tactics of using intimidation to pressure and fear the people into their belief system (example - CDRs in Cuba = The Gestapo in Nazi Germany)

Communism = Class Warfare (One Class Only)
Facism = Foreign or Race Warfare (One Race Only)

I am not a communist nor a facist.

Both represent Government that controls the people.

People should control their government - not the other way around.

That is why I believe in Democracy vand Republic forms of government where the power is balanced amongst the elected officials.

I believe in Free Enterprise/Capitalism

I believe in the right to free assembly (Trade Unions)

I believe in Free Media (Not one-sided news coverage)

I believe in Privatized Education and medical care (Voucher systems gives parents and students the choice, not schools and government)

I believe in mass transportation

EFFICIENCY, DEMOCRACY, & FREEDOM

this is what people deserve and should expect from their government.

Communist Cuba, The former Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Facist Italy, - all are examples of oppresive/evil empires. Inefficient Regimes!

[Nateddi]

Oh really fellow cappie?

The nazis were close to communists than capitalists? The nazis are the biggest capitalists ever. They rule capitalism with force. Every fascist and nazi government upon seizing power crushed labor union, took off safety and minimum wage laws, and their campaign was funded by wealthy industrialists. Go back in the 30's, the American press was glorifying Mussolini and 'resepcting' Hitler.

The idea that nazis are close® to communists is completely absurd, and you know that.

Nice belief about privatized education. I am not going to even get into any of that shit. You I can tell just WANT to widen the class barrier. Good Luck. Even in capitalist America, education will NEVER be privatized, and healthcare will eventually be taken over by the people instead of money-seeking HMOs which only provide themselves to rich companies, which leaves 45,000,000 without any health coverage. These people who toil labor for little cash will also need to waste hundreds for a fucking doctors appointment. I am not going to even argue against privatizing education. I am just hoping that IP or someone a bit smarter isn't that right-wing.

I support free media, just not the kind which is in the U$. Here my capitalist friend, media is owned by the worlds richest corporations or individuals. The employees in the media have a history of working for other corporation and/or the US government. Shows how free and independant we are. I didn't see the sea of red in Italy on CNN (not to mention FauxNews). I haven't seen any leftist discussions made on CNN or others (besides the occasional, non-economic discussion about abortion). Nobody covered the issues of the protesters at the World Economic Forum in February. Nobody will cover the April 20th stop the war march on Washington. And you know this man.

But hey, we all have dreams. We all want fairness, cappie. The free market does not bring fairness to anyone. If you are rich, you became so unfairly, if you are poor, same thing.

(Edited by Nateddi at 3:12 pm on April 3, 2002)

[Guest]

But hey, we all have dreams. We all want fairness, cappie. The free market does not bring fairness to anyone. If you are rich, you became so unfairly, if you are poor, same thing. -nateddi


aint that the tooth!


Actually it's not, listen don't mix the personal with the historical. And don't discount personal responsibility, too many people here think of poverty in the abstract like a genetic characteristic that afflicts whole nations or populations. Its not, it is a problem that affects individuals. You guys go at lenght paying lip service to helping the poor, but never make any feasible proposals for how this should be done. The most repeated sentiment seems to easily be characterized by the phrase "throw more money at it".

The capitalists at least seem to have a plan for solving these problems.

[poncho]

"Both utilize tactics of using intimidation to pressure and fear the people into their belief system (example - CDRs in Cuba = The Gestapo in Nazi Germany)"

You can hardly compare the CDR to the Gestapo, like the rest of your posting all shock lie's and hope they stick.

My friends Mom is a CDR, she helps her neighbors to become good citizens, nothing more nothing less.

[Moskitto]

Leopold is the ultimate capitalist, not the Nazis. If you combine a free market with someone who believes that they've been given the right to rule by god, then that's what you get.

[ID2002]

DO NOT FORCE YOUR CULTURAL VALUES ON OTHERS "Capitalist", YOU CAN"T FORCE CUBA TO ADOPT YOUR POLICIES AFTER YOUR DAMN COUNTRY HAS LABELLED THEM ENEMIES! THATS FUCKED UP!
The USA, again wishes to dominate, and dictate foreign policy. I don't see Canada doing that to Cuba........!? Do you? My country LOVES CUBA! And CUBA LOVES my country...for I AM CANADIAN!!!

[oconner]

Captialist, I am sorry to be so blunt, but you speak complete rubbish.
Before the Cuban Reveloution, Cuba was ruled by a murderer. And before that, it was under US rule.
Cuba has inproved under a socialist/communist government.

[Nateddi]

Quote: from ID2002 on 9:35 am on April 5, 2002
DO NOT FORCE YOUR CULTURAL VALUES ON OTHERS "Capitalist", YOU CAN"T FORCE CUBA TO ADOPT YOUR POLICIES AFTER YOUR DAMN COUNTRY HAS LABELLED THEM ENEMIES! THATS FUCKED UP!
The USA, again wishes to dominate, and dictate foreign policy. I don't see Canada doing that to Cuba........!? Do you? My country LOVES CUBA! And CUBA LOVES my country...for I AM CANADIAN!!!


Canada is a great country compared to the US. They don't spend 300 billion on the military to dictate corporate imperialism world wide, and than to protect themselves from someone like Osama who decides to take action against American imperialism. Instead, Canada has a great healthcare system, and the crime and poverty rate is much lover.

[Capitalist]

Fidel's Government.

CDR = Gestapo (Spy on your neighbor, report all suspicious activity, do not allow a closed assembly over 4 people to congregate without government approval or supervision - meaning you have to obtain government permission to have a birthday party)

FREE EDUCATION (We call it brainwashing. Teach only Fidel Castro's ideology and serve the revolution that has lasted 42 years - (somebody tell me what type of revolution lasts 42 years? That is almost half a century of tyranny) Take children away from parents and place in education camps where they perform hard labor and study communist ideology - WORK WORK WORK.

FREE MEDICAL CARE - if you are a government official or a foreigner with American Dollars you will receive quality healthcare. If you are a regular citizen you might as well forget it - there will be no medicine for you and you must even bring your own bed sheets.

CASTRO T.V. & GRANDMA NEWSPAPER - receive up to date one-sided media that portrays only one view point - Castro's Viewpoint.

NO CAPITALISM or FREE ENTERPRISE - unless you are a foreigner who needs slave labor to make your product in a factory stolen from somebody else. Product that will be sold to Fat Capitalistic Canadians and Europeans. Products that the regular Cuban people will never enjoy using.

LONG LINES & FOOD RATIONS - wait in hour long lines for a bottle of milk. Or how about a small roll of bread for you and your 6 year-old child. Sorry that is all the food you get today to provide for you - a grown adult, and your growing child.

RESTRICTION ON RELIGION - All Catholic Schools were outlawed soon after the revolution - because Castro thinks he knows better than a parent where to educate their child. Castro believes he has the right to take your child and flood their brains with his ideology - SERVE THE REVOLUTION!

BIG MILITARY - The Cuban military is the largest military force in Latin America except for Brazil. Only government officials have the right to bear arms. Regular Cuban Citizens can not bear arms - Fearful of a counter-revolution.

POLITICAL PRISONERS - The Cuban Government has placed people in prison for 20+ years for crimes as simple as expressing their point of view - for simply speaking their minds. I do not agree with communism - but I will be damned if to place someone in jail for 20+ years simply because they do not like my opinion. Why the world outcry for Taliban prisoners - the same people who are responsible for religious persecution, forcing women to live like dogs, foreign terrorist attacks like 9-11, - Yet nobody cares for the Cubans who crashed a bus into the Mexican Embassy a month ago. Whatever happened to these Cubans seeking refuge from Castro's tyranny. Why hasn't the world press inquired about these prisoners taken by Fidel?

Governmental Discrimination - In a country who's population is 20% black and 40% mulatto - whites making up only 35% - Yet a government that is controlled by all WHITE PEOPLE - 90% of the military and governmental appointed leaders are white. WHITE has vanilla white. And don't give the bullshit that Castro ended racism. The Batista was racist (Batista was a Mulatto rejected from American White Neighborhoods in Cuba). The plain fact is that segregation as a whole ended in the early 1960s. Fidel was not responsible for ending segregation. The blacks in the USA have come much further than the blacks in Cuba.

The list goes on and on.

You do not understand Fidel's Government until you begin talking to Cuban exiles. And I'm not talking about exiles that came over in early 1960 - I am talking about more recent exiles that came over in 1981, in the late 80s, and 1994.

Quit living a fantasy - and face reality.

Blind Bricks in the Wall.

Just Another Brick in the Wall.

Well I'm the Machine.

& the machine will tear down your wall of rage.

[poncho]

CDR = Ensures the government is working for the neighborhood. You can not be arrested without the CDR meeting and telling the police its o.k. All members of the community appoint the CDR's not the government.


FREE EDUCATION: I know lots of people within this age bracket of High School none has ever worked in a field by force. Child labor laws are more strict than the United States, basic education is held higher. If a student wants a job permission of the principal must be granted. If the principal feels it will have negatives on the students education they will not work...

FREE MEDICAL CARE - Every citizen receives the same level of health care. My Canadian girlfriends dad had cancer, so did my Cubans friends mom. The Cubans received better and faster treatment. No they are not members of the communist party!!!!Far from it....

CASTRO T.V. & GRANDMA NEWSPAPER - I've watched CNN on direct tv in cafes and at restraunts with Cuban citizens. The average Cuban is aware of the outside world. I've read grandma and often agree with its point of view.

NO CAPITALISM or FREE ENTERPRISE - Another Cuban along with his Cuban cousin own a cab 1978 Mercedes 300D, $11,000 including license as a official taxi, car paid off in three months.

LONG LINES & FOOD RATIONS - Yes they have rations but extra food can be purchased at very low subsidized prices. Every child and parent can eat in Cuba. Long lines at peak times, just like an American store.

RESTRICTION ON RELIGION - We should restrict religion here. Try having a prayer meeting in class in the U.S.

BIG MILITARY - a country has the right to defense against aggression. Un-armed citizens is only half true, yes military type assault rifles and certain weapons are illegal, but hunting weapons are not....

POLITICAL PRISONERS - The only people that fear prison are criminals that support terrorist efforts backed by Miami nuts like you.

Governmental Discrimination - Blacks are not seperate from the "whites" they live and work as equals inclueding the government.


The list goes on and on.

You do not understand Fidel's Government until you begin talking to Cuban exiles. And I'm not talking about exiles that came over in early 1960 - I am talking about more recent exiles that came over in 1981, in the late 80s, and 1994. = Most recent exiles have expressed the sentiment of its the same old shit just a differant country, most end up admitting life in cuba is alot easier. But they are beaten and often killed by Miami mafia when they speak out.......

Quit living a fantasy - and face reality.= GOOD ADVICE MAYBE YOU SHOULD FOLLOW IT

[Moskitto]

"The Batista was racist (Batista was a Mulatto rejected from American White Neighborhoods in Cuba)." - Hitler had a Jewish Grandmother, I don't know where the nonexistant 25 million holocaust victims went (That's Courtois' figure and he wrote the "Black Book of Communism" who's statistics you quote so often)

"do not allow a closed assembly over 4 people to congregate without government approval or supervision" - You cite that Ghandi could protest in India, In India you could have meetings of 3 or more People, where is worse?

"Regular Cuban Citizens can not bear arms - Fearful of a counter-revolution." - Annother Brit hidey hole like India was (The UK) does not allow it's citizens to bear arms.

Castro thinks he knows better than a parent where to educate their child. - In Britain there's things called "Catchment Areas" where if you live within a certain area you have to go to a certain school.

unless you are a foreigner who needs slave labor to make your product in a factory stolen from somebody else. - I've told you before, Fair trade regulations do not allow slave labour for making Fair Trade products, therefore if you want to dispute the validity of the claims Here-->http://www.trading-standards.gov.uk is the website where you can voice your concerns.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Capitalist on 6:18 pm on April 5, 2002
Regular Cuban Citizens can not bear arms - Fearful of a counter-revolution.

This has already been debated with IP and RL and they failed to give me a good reason why man has a divine right to own a gun.

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=22&topic=102 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=102)


Governmental Discrimination - In a country who's population is 20% black and 40% mulatto - whites making up only 35% - Yet a government that is controlled by all WHITE PEOPLE - 90% of the military and governmental appointed leaders are white.

We've also discussed this, and you started the thread:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=22&topic=168 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=168)

Maybe you should sort your facts out. Isn't the idea for free speech, press and elections in Cuba?? If so, I see the reasoning...

[Capitalist]

Poncho = member of the government.

Poncho why are you too shameful to give us a full history of your background. Why are you one of the few Cubans allowed to travel abroad? Why are you one of the few Cubans to have Canadian and European girlfriends? I'd like to know the answer.

Poncho why don't you explain a few more things since I am soooooooo ignorant about Cuba.

Why do so many Cubans come across the Alantic Ocean in little rafts and risk death to escape Cuba? Why does Castro's government attack these Cubans that try to escape by boat? Why do they drop heavy weights from planes onto their rafts to prevent others from doing the same?

What has the Castro Government done to the political prisoners that rammed a bus into the Mexican Embassy a month ago seeking asylum from the government? What is their punishment? Where is the Trial?

Why does Cuba put a tap on media and free press? Why can't people watch and read conflicting ideology. Why is it illegal to simply protest and voice an opinion against the government? Why was a man sentenced to 4 years in prison for hanging the Cuban flag upside down?

Why is Raul Castro (Fidel Castro's Brother) the successor to Fidel's Government? Shouldn't leaders be elected and not appointed?

How come everytime I see a picture of Cuba - Every house and building (except tourist hotels) looks like they are about to fall down? When in 1950s the streets of Cuba looked more glamorous than the streets in the USA.

Why are everyday Cubans prevented by the police from walking on tourist only beaches?

How come the USA embargo keeps Cuba in poverty although Cuba has open trade with everyone else (Europe, Canada, Mexico, Latin America ect.). Why should the USA embargo matter one bit? USA is not the only country to conduct trade with.

Why does Castro want to end the Embargo when he and Che Guevara encouraged the Cuban people to stop buying American goods in the first place?

Poncho do you share a two-bedroom apartment with your Canadian Girlfriend and your parents like most Cubans do? Or are you given the government luxury of a stolen mansion from one of Batista's old supporters.

Do you have skinny arms and legs like most Cubans? Must you wait in long hour lines for sugar water and bread? Do you have a 6 year old child that must be raised on sugar water instead of milk?

PONCHO why don't you give me some detail as to why you have internet access when every other Cuban does not?

Why do you think the Catholic Church has no right to exist in Cuba? Is it your right to decide what religion the Cuban people can or can not practice? Is it your right or the government's right to decide what schools to send Cuban Children? Is it your government's right to outlaw Catholic Schools - Schools that provided excellent education.

I've heard numerous stories from exiled Cubans about the child labor at education camps. Why do you seem to be the only Cuban with a different story? Are you Cuban?

Why are Cubans not allowed to assemble their own trade unions and demand higher wages?

What about free enterprise? You are sure to mention the cab - but this is but an exemption. Only recently has the Cuban government finally unleashed capitalism. Only recently has the American Dollar (1993) been made legal. After the Soviet Union fell, only then did Castro start removing heavy restrictions on any form of Free Enterprise. Yet we all know that the real Enterprise Freedom belongs to foreigners.

Cheap - Quality Healthcare - Foreigners Only

Cuban Beaches - Foreigners Only

Cuban Hotels - Foreigners Only

CNN News Coverage - Foreigners Only in Hotels

IS PONCHO CUBAN?

Is Poncho a full blooded Cuban? Or is he a communist invader of Cuba like Che Guevara.

Che Guevara was NOT Cuban

And I believe that PONCHO is also NOT Cuban.

ARE YOU CUBAN, PONCHO ???

[poncho]

Everything you have posted against Castro and Cuba is a lie designed to bring hatred and further punishment to the sovereign people of cuba!

No I'm not a Cuban or a communist , you do not need to be part of race to see the reality versus the lie's, the biggest reason why the anti-Castro crowd hate it when people have the ability to travel freely to Cuba.

The biggest is these so called slave camps that do not exist anywhere on the island. Think people like myself who travel more frequently to the island and have many,many Cuban friends would have heard at least a rumor of such a camp. Same goes to political prisoners and torture,murder etc etc etc.

[PunkRawker677]

Fidel's Government. U.S. Goverment.

"CDR = Gestapo (Spy on your neighbor, report all suspicious activity, do not allow a closed assembly over 4 people to congregate without government approval or supervision - meaning you have to obtain government permission to have a birthday party)"
ever been hit in the face with a US police baton? or been maced for walking in the hallway at school where there was a fight that you didnt know about? or how bout getting tear gas shot at you as you turn the corner not knowing a small size protest was going on?

"FREE EDUCATION (We call it brainwashing. Teach only Fidel Castro's ideology and serve the revolution that has lasted 42 years - (somebody tell me what type of revolution lasts 42 years? That is almost half a century of tyranny) Take children away from parents and place in education camps where they perform hard labor and study communist ideology - WORK WORK WORK."
Its funny how 10,000 people a year travel to cuba to study (especially medicine).. its also how all my family under 20 has never been sent to 'education camps' and hell, look at the kids in the U.S... shooting up schools, doing drugs.. and most of them failing at least one grade.. in the U.S. when it comes to educations its MONEY MONEY MONEY.

"FREE MEDICAL CARE - if you are a government official or a foreigner with American Dollars you will receive quality healthcare. If you are a regular citizen you might as well forget it - there will be no medicine for you and you must even bring your own bed sheets."
thats just plain ignorant.. all the hospital beds in cuban hospitals have bed sheets, and better than that EVERYONE recieves quality healthcare FAST.. in the U.S. you will die at the door if you dont have insurance, and if you do, prepare to wait 10 hours to have the doctor come tell you that his shift is over and it'll be a little while later..

"CASTRO T.V. & GRANDMA NEWSPAPER - receive up to date one-sided media that portrays only one view point - Castro's Viewpoint." and the US media is betteR? they show ONLY the bad parts of cuba, ONLY the bad things.. obviously where you get all your information.

"NO CAPITALISM or FREE ENTERPRISE - unless you are a foreigner who needs slave labor to make your product in a factory stolen from somebody else. Product that will be sold to Fat Capitalistic Canadians and Europeans. Products that the regular Cuban people will never enjoy using. " actually, they dont have capitalism.. well that MIGHT BE DO to the the fact that they are socialist.. and there is NO slave labor.. unlike some other countries.. oh shit.. the U.S. comes to mind first!!

"LONG LINES & FOOD RATIONS - wait in hour long lines for a bottle of milk. Or how about a small roll of bread for you and your 6 year-old child. Sorry that is all the food you get today to provide for you - a grown adult, and your growing child." no one waits in lines unless, like poncho said, you go at peak time.. and people dot get a roll of bread.. or just a bottle of milk.. you get rice, beans, and the rest free.. and then, a bottle of milk (3 years ago when i last went) costs 20 cuban cents, a gallon of ice cream costs 5 cuban cents.. etc etc.

"RESTRICTION ON RELIGION - All Catholic Schools were outlawed soon after the revolution - because Castro thinks he knows better than a parent where to educate their child. Castro believes he has the right to take your child and flood their brains with his ideology - SERVE THE REVOLUTION! " religion should NOT be intertwined with schools.. thats where religous fanatics come from.

"BIG MILITARY - The Cuban military is the largest military force in Latin America except for Brazil. Only government officials have the right to bear arms. Regular Cuban Citizens can not bear arms - Fearful of a counter-revolution." last i checked the U.S. has the absolute biggest army in the world.. almost everywhere.. including cuba.. and you want people to have guns?? 64 percent of all kids (under 19) attempt to commit suicide, 16 percent do it with guns. (source: One in Thirteen)

"POLITICAL PRISONERS - The Cuban Government has placed people in prison for 20+ years for crimes as simple as expressing their point of view - for simply speaking their minds. I do not agree with communism - but I will be damned if to place someone in jail for 20+ years simply because they do not like my opinion. Why the world outcry for Taliban prisoners - the same people who are responsible for religious persecution, forcing women to live like dogs, foreign terrorist attacks like 9-11, - Yet nobody cares for the Cubans who crashed a bus into the Mexican Embassy a month ago. Whatever happened to these Cubans seeking refuge from Castro's tyranny. Why hasn't the world press inquired about these prisoners taken by Fidel?" yes, and peltier being in jail for 24 years for something he did NOT commit (all the evidence in there) is okay.. right?

"Governmental Discrimination - In a country who's population is 20% black and 40% mulatto - whites making up only 35% - Yet a government that is controlled by all WHITE PEOPLE - 90% of the military and governmental appointed leaders are white. WHITE has vanilla white. And don't give the bullshit that Castro ended racism. The Batista was racist (Batista was a Mulatto rejected from American White Neighborhoods in Cuba). The plain fact is that segregation as a whole ended in the early 1960s. Fidel was not responsible for ending segregation. The blacks in the USA have come much further than the blacks in Cuba." this has already been argued and i will not waste my time again.. if u want to read what we said, go to the link..

"The list goes on and on. "
the list is infinitly long when your concerning the U.S. and so it the death toll..

"You do not understand Fidel's Government until you begin talking to Cuban exiles. And I'm not talking about exiles that came over in early 1960 - I am talking about more recent exiles that came over in 1981, in the late 80s, and 1994. " my grandmother came to visit 5 years ago, and left right away because of how miserable people where here.. she had said, and i will never forget this "I would rather live with half your food, and a family and society, than with all the food in the world and no time to eat or share it"

[queen of diamonds]

okay, i agree, perhaps the cuban system isn't the greatest in the world, but i hardly think we can say the US is much better, and it's stupid to pretend it is
if anything, cuba's come a lot further than the US - at any rate, it's got less people who want to murder everyone in it
if you want to talk about a government who is oppressive, it might not be a bad idea to look at home first. here in australia, the communist party, and any others with communist ideals were actually outlawed. CNN is little more than a load of US propaganda - even US TV shows, ostensibly created for entertainment spend so much of their time depicting the chinese communists or the muslims as reincarnations of satan. the way hitler's propaganda so thoroughly overwhelmed the germans in Nazi Germany, so many armericans are being taken in by this now, and don't realise it.
a word of advice - if you want any semblance of the truth, look at the US media in conjunction with other, more reliable media

[oconner]

Capitalist, you said you spoke to Cuban exiles. But they are going to have a one-sided view anyway, because they left Cuba, so obviusly they arn't going to like it much.
If you spoke to actual Cubans living in Cuba then you would get a very different view

[Moskitto]

the way hitler's propaganda so thoroughly overwhelmed the germans in Nazi Germany,

My grandma had a German friend to stay in 1937 and she discovered that Britain was nothing like the Nazis said it was, for example she thought that the British liked to eat raw bacon and you could buy it in shops to eat there and then.

[poncho]

Quote: from oconner on 11:40 am on April 6, 2002
Capitalist, you said you spoke to Cuban exiles. But they are going to have a one-sided view anyway, because they left Cuba, so obviusly they arn't going to like it much.
If you spoke to actual Cubans living in Cuba then you would get a very different view


A couple of months ago Dateline did a story on the Embargo. More than one newly arrived Cuban stated that life was no better in the United States. One of them came by raft in 1993 and even said "America is a lie"

My Canadian friends Cuban born and raised wife was bored sitting around the house, so she went out and got a job in a large grocery store chain. First paycheck she was angered at how much the government took out in taxes. "this government does nothing and takes so much" she said. Often tells people Canada needs Fidel!!!!! Her husband likes his job and being Canadian or they would move back....

The Miami exiles that like and miss Cuba are often beaten for voicing that opinion.

Capitalist what was that comment you made about Che shirts?

[PunkRawker677]

"do you share a two-bedroom apartment with your Canadian Girlfriend and your parents like most Cubans do? Or are you given the government luxury of a stolen mansion from one of Batista's old supporters. " i live in a one bedroom apartment with my parents and my sister.. in the US..

"Do you have skinny arms and legs like most Cubans? Must you wait in long hour lines for sugar water and bread? Do you have a 6 year old child that must be raised on sugar water instead of milk? " when my parents got laid off, i couldnt wait in line for sugar water, or bread.. we couldnt afford either... we didnt eat.. as do most people..

"why don't you give me some detail as to why you have internet access when every other Cuban does not? "

as i said before, all universty students in cuba have internet access, they dont have anyway of contacting americans Via internet because they dont use AOL, MSN Messenger, or anything like that.. many use Yahoo!, and ICQ.. the computer programming students (almost all universities carry these classes now starting last year) actually use ICQ, and i have talked to several of them (my cousin is currently studying programming)

[poncho]

"do you share a two-bedroom apartment with your Canadian Girlfriend and your parents like most Cubans do?

I live in Canada with my 3 dogs in a house. Rottweilers named: Castro,Che, and Cuba.

My next planned trip I will be staying in a condo somewhere in Havana, $20 U.S a day than I'll move down to Cienfuegos where I'll rent another condo $15U.S. a day. Sorry no gifts from Fidel, YET!!!


"Do you have skinny arms and legs like most Cubans? Must you wait in long hour lines for sugar water and bread? Do you have a 6 year old child that must be raised on sugar water instead of milk? "

What about the millions of Americans who have jobs but have to go to a food bank so they can eat? Or have to skip meals to pay for a gas bill or it will be turned off in the dead of winter?

Myself I'm in decent shape walking 3 dogs 5 miles a day helps. Most of my Cuban friends are in pretty good shape. I'll open a free picture hosting account and post some pics-- A picture says a thousand words!!!!


"why don't you give me some detail as to why you have internet access when every other Cuban does not? "

I'm in Canada, but my Cuban friends at school have access. One of my friends that I met on a Rottweiler forum has home net in Cuba, privlage of being a doctor maybe....

[Moskitto]

No disrespect to anyone but, you can't really prove anything about people across the internet. For example, I could really be Japanese and speak use a spellchecker to post. There is also the posibility that I am actually English. That's why it's best to use personal stories as metaphors over the internet and not to attack someone by claiming they're lying when they tell you their background because if they are correct you're resorting to personal insults.

It's also why it's a good idea not to date people across the internet (40 year old raping a 13 year old is not good.)

Edit: I just remembered, my cousin met her fience in a chat room and she now lives with him in Scotland.

(Edited by Moskitto at 8:40 pm on April 6, 2002)

[guerrillaradio]

Why isn't there unrestricted internet access in Cuba?? Is there free speech and press??

[poncho]

edited because one of my friends thinks its bad to put pictures of people without there knowledge and I agree.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Restricted internet access is a must in Cuba to many Capitalist types to fill innocent Cubans with false ideas!!!!


(Edited by poncho at 12:48 am on April 10, 2002)

[Guest]

To ID2002: Yes you are right Trudeau was the only north americain who had close ties to Fidel Castro. Canada is a good country but not perfect, we have many things to work on. We are the medium between capitalism and communism. Whish is a good way to be for this day in age but not the best.

[Capitalist]

Fact #1 = Cubans do not have free internet access

Fact #2 = Poncho is Canadian, not Cuban.

Being a Canadian tourist/student in Cuba does not make you Cuban.

Totalarian Governement = Cheap/Slave Labor = Cheap Vacation = Cheap Tourists like Poncho

Do you get a nice tan on those "Tourist Only" beaches?

The beautiful beaches of Cuba is just another example of what the Cuban Governement has stolen from the Cuban people and given to tourists only - cheap tourists like you?

[Communist Dominion]

1# the reason there is not domestic internet access is because it is part of the embargo placed upon them by the US,

2#Poncho, the clothing or the person?

true a tourist doesnt make you a citizen but he may be a resident, defulting him into that status,

Totalitarian govt, PLAH!! *nearly chokes on shirt*

[Anarcho]

CD- Sorry buddy, you're wrong on that one. In fact, there are dozens of other countries that interact with Cuba on a daily basis. The "embargo" against Cuba is a hollow shell of what it once was.

And, although it may seem like it at times, the US is not the only country to supply ISP's with Backbone lines.

Although I do not support the embargo at all (I think it's a waste of time now) I would like to see a totally non-partisan report on Cuba. 60 Minutes used to do expose pieces every now and again.

And Motorweek magazine had an article last year of some guys going to see cars, and just being in awe of the scarcity of parts... an old man cried when he was given a set of spark plugs. It was weird.

[Capitalist]

I agree with Anarcho

The USA Embargo is not to blame for Cuba's Economic problems. Especially considering that Cuba has free trade with everyone else.

How can the USA Embargo matter one bit? When Cuba has free trade with Canada, Europe, Africa, Mexico, Latin America, China, Blah, Blah.

The problem with Cuba's Economy started a looonnnng time ago when Che Guevara was appointed President of the National Bank in Cuba.

Besides it was Che Guevara and Fidel Castro that encouraged Cubans to stop purchasing American Products.

Why start now? Not buying American was one of the main ideals of the Communist Revolution.

[poncho]

"Do you get a nice tan on those "Tourist Only" beaches?"

Did you look at my pictures before I took them down? If you did note the Cuban family's enjoying the beach.

I'm a tourist but that does not mean I cannot see the world around me, nor meet and speak with the people to get the real scoop.

[Communist Dominion]

the entire point of the embargo was to create an impoverished CUBA so the people would rebal, but Cubans have food, shelter,helthcare and education they have dealt with the worst you have tried (even the bay of pigs) and you failed, leave cuba alone you stupid fat cats, and you have controel over what you sell to cuba, you mis-advertise and exploit. Stop if its doing harm.

[Guest]

>poncho
>My friends Mom is a CDR, she helps her neighbors to >become good citizens, nothing more nothing less.

hahahahaha, a good citizen, whahahaha.
What happens if you are not a good citizen eh??
They will probably re-educate you? in other words force that propoganda up the ass.

Look cappies/commies, both masters in propoganda.
The nasty sting is that they are believing all this shit for them selves, and somehow people think there are easy solutions....Well! there aren't communisme isn't the answer for everyone and capatalisme isn't either.
Live with it and try find a good mix and not purge everyone from your neighboorhood who doesn't agree with you.

[Communist Dominion]

in between capitalism and communism is socialism, and half the people here are socialists , so whats your point? and the reason we are pushing our points so hard is because it is urgent, the world is getting pretty stuffed up morally, economically and environmentally , so a political solution needs to be found soon. We cant let mismanagement like this to continue.

[Guest]

>poncho
>My friends Mom is a CDR, she helps her neighbors to
>become good citizens, nothing more nothing less.

I still very much like to have an answer that the question:
What happens if you turn out not to be a good citizen??

[poncho]

The CDR's are laisons between the people in the community and the government. They help ensure that government policy is what the community needs and the community receives them evenly. They also help people better understand how to work the government to better there lives. CDR's keep the government for the people and ensure that its balanced to reflect the majority of the peoples wishes in how they want to be governed.

[Guest]

>oconner
>Captialist, I am sorry to be so blunt, but you speak
>complete rubbish.
>Before the Cuban Reveloution, Cuba was ruled by a
>murderer. And before that, it was under US rule.

What, and you say Castro is a saint?

>poncho
>Restricted internet access is a must in Cuba to many
>Capitalist types to fill innocent Cubans with false
i>deas!!!!

Are you saying that the people of Cuba are stupid and cannot think for themselves? They need to goverment to think for them?

Poncho for the third time I ask you!!!!:
What happens if you are not good citizen according to the CDR????

What happens if you wave a banner saying:
I rather have election Fidel, just like you promised so many years ago!!

[Guest]

With regard to point 4, what system of government was (really) in place before the revolution?

ie. was it truly democratic?

[Capitalist]

No

Batista was not democratic. I have never supported Batista - Do not put words in my mouth.

Nevertheless, Fidel Castro and Che Guevara are definitely the bigger evil than Batista.

Batista was a thug.

Che Guevara was full of rage and hatred.

Fidel Castro is a bloody tyrant.

Castro and Che Guevara stole the Democratic Revolution from the Cuban people.