North Korea Fascinates me

[Ele'ill]

I watched a show on National Geographic channel yesterday on North Korea. A medical team went into North Korea and National Geographic brought cameras. It amazes me how brainwashed the population is.

Anyone else seen this documentary?

[Demogorgon]

There is a lack of accurate information on North Korea (always a bad sign incidentally). The few Documentary teams that do get it in always seem to report different things. A lot of visitors indicate that the population are not in fact really brainwashed and in fact know exactly what is going on, but are simply too afraid to say so. No one can really tell.

[spartan]

It really depends on what sort of stuff you watch/read on the DPRK.

There are two types of sources on the DPRK (Both of which are biased to their own side) which are the obviously extreme pro-DPRK propaganda that portrays the country and its leadership as some sort of paradise ruled by a God, and the western sources which always tell you of brainwashing, military parades and starvation.

The truth is obviously somewhere between the two, though make no mistake the DPRK isnt Socialist or anywhere near Socialism.

[Ele'ill]

They showed this medical team that was allowed inside north Korea doing eye treatments for cataracts. When the people would see they would walk up and yell and cry and thank their leader for allowing them to see. (If you've seen this show you'll know what i'm talking about). It was amazing how alien this world was to me.

The footage from the DMZ where there is a sand pit probably 15ft long and 6 feet wide and both Us and north Korean soldiers stand guard right there next to each other. All the customs and such and how from the one conference room when they pass a message through a doorway they have to hold hands to avoid being pulled through to the other side.

[Demogorgon]

They showed this medical team that was allowed inside north Korea doing eye treatments for cataracts. When the people would see they would walk up and yell and cry and thank their leader for allowing them to see. (If you've seen this show you'll know what i'm talking about). It was amazing how alien this world was to me.

You have to remember that they don't necessarilly believe their "leader" allowed it, they are probably just afraid of what will happen if they are caught on camera not doing that.

It is hard to know which way it is of course. Scary wither way though

[Dr Mindbender]

I watched a show on National Geographic channel yesterday on North Korea. A medical team went into North Korea and National Geographic brought cameras. It amazes me how brainwashed the population is.

Anyone else seen this documentary?
the documentary featuring Joseph Dresnok portrayed quite a different picture to the one documented by the show you watched

http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/events/nick-bonner-seminar.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZtkHUkZ8Rg&feature=related

[Demogorgon]

the documentary featuring Joseph Dresnok portrayed quite a different picture to the one documented by the show you watched

http://www.ames.cam.ac.uk/events/nick-bonner-seminar.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZtkHUkZ8Rg&feature=related

Doesn't look that good. Not able to move around easily. Radios that can't be turned off pumping out propoganda, people starving etc.

[Dr Mindbender]

Doesn't look that good. Not able to move around easily. Radios that can't be turned off pumping out propoganda, people starving etc.
if 4 americans were willing to go there and fared better than they did in the states then it gives mixed messages about how bad it actually is though.

Thats not to say I'm defending the DPRK in any way, I still think its a long way from socialism. I agree with that point at least.

[RGacky3]

North Korea is an extreme extreme example of power gone completely out of control, and the horrors that come with it, although I do take some of what those documentaries say with a grain of salt.

[TC]

Thats just silly and stupid.

North Korea, like most places has a population where the majority genuinely support its government and just like most places has some people willing to express that support in stupid ways. If you go into hickville Texas and interview locals you'll hear people say George Bush was appointed by God and consults with God on issues of national policy. Also that Jesus created the world in 6 days and fossils are evidence for the biblical flood. Strangely no one makes these dumbass threads about America despite this.

[Jazzratt]

Thats just silly and stupid.

North Korea, like most places has a population where the majority genuinely support its government and just like most places has some people willing to express that support in stupid ways. If you go into hickville Texas and interview locals you'll hear people say George Bush was appointed by God and consults with God on issues of national policy. Also that Jesus created the world in 6 days and fossils are evidence for the biblical flood. Strangely no one makes these dumbass threads about America despite this.

That's because we have a lot of information about Bumblefuck, AR or whatever. Whereas the amount of information from All-Glory-To-Kim-Jong-Ville (horrible pun, but I had to shoehorn it in) is scarce to say the least. What little information there is will, obviously, be examined and remarked upon.

[Tupac-Amaru]

Thats just silly and stupid.

North Korea, like most places has a population where the majority genuinely support its government...

:scared:
You make me sick to my belly...

If i could, i'd kill you...but i acctually have morals.

...douchebag!

[Bandito]

You didn't get his point.
Think twice before calling someone names,that just proves your stupidity.
Don't be stupid.

[Jazzratt]

:scared:
You make me sick to my belly...

If i could, i'd kill you...but i acctually have morals.

...douchebag!

What exactly has she said that's so damn offensive to you? She's simply stated the obvious - a lot of people genuinely like the shitty governments they have. To take an historical example Henry VIII was a complete dick and the system over which he presided was utter crap but if you asked Bob the Peasant what he thought of the King he'd have answered (genuinely mind) that the sun shone out of his fucking arse.

[Dimentio]

if 4 americans were willing to go there and fared better than they did in the states then it gives mixed messages about how bad it actually is though.

Thats not to say I'm defending the DPRK in any way, I still think its a long way from socialism. I agree with that point at least.

There is a reason that most Cuban Exiles in Miami are quite well-off. The DPRK are using these Americans as a "proof" of how good the life in the DPRK is.

[Dr Mindbender]

There is a reason that most Cuban Exiles in Miami are quite well-off. The DPRK are using these Americans as a "proof" of how good the life in the DPRK is.

It wasnt just financially or nutritionally they were better off. After their alienation in the US the defectors found wives in the DPRK (no doubt due to the cultural differences) and their children enjoyed the benefits of a state-funded education. Joseph Dresnok said himself there was no way he could have sent his son to university had he been living in the US. I dont think therein implies any 'special treatment'.

[R_P_A_S]

I watched a show on National Geographic channel yesterday on North Korea. A medical team went into North Korea and National Geographic brought cameras. It amazes me how brainwashed the population is.

Anyone else seen this documentary?

People in America are just as brainwashed. consumerism, celebrity hysteria and the wrath of god.. only difference is that those people are 'brainwashed' on shit that you and I aren't.

get over it.

[R_P_A_S]

Doesn't look that good. Not able to move around easily. Radios that can't be turned off pumping out propoganda, people starving etc.

i can't turn off the propaganda here in America either. Im trying to watch a football game and I get pumped propaganda to buy this and buy that on commercials and the sidelines are covered by sponsors, I drive down the street and there are more propaganda, billboards on products they want me to buy, oh and new houses for sale! while the same 3 homeless men on the corner holding a sign begging for money.. I can't even pump gas now because there's a TV screen on the pumps spitting more propaganda about celebrity gossip and products they want me to buy.

same bullshit, different place.
get over it.

[Lector Malibu]

:scared:
You make me sick to my belly...

If i could, i'd kill you...but i acctually have morals.

...douchebag!

Shut your mouth, seriously.

[Bud Struggle]

same bullshit, different place.
get over it.

No, North Koreans have it pretty bad. But it's time that we really start separating a country's political ideology from it's economic ideology. NK is a brutal dictatorship that has no real economic basis in anything that Marx even said. "Communism" is just and excuse for the dictatorship--nothing more.

There are plenty of countries in the world that are "Capitalist" brutal dictatorships too, that have no similarity to true Capitalistic societies.

[Bandito]

There are plenty of countries in the world that are "Capitalist" brutal dictatorships too, that have no similarity to true Capitalistic societies.
What do you mean?

[Bud Struggle]

What do you mean?

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and Teodoro Obiang Nguema of Equatorial Guinea. Both "side" with Capitalism instead of Communism, but they are both ruthless dictators.

[R_P_A_S]

No, North Koreans have it pretty bad. But it's time that we really start separating a country's political ideology from it's economic ideology. NK is a brutal dictatorship that has no real economic basis in anything that Marx even said. "Communism" is just and excuse for the dictatorship--nothing more.

There are plenty of countries in the world that are "Capitalist" brutal dictatorships too, that have no similarity to true Capitalistic societies.

i just don't like the western comparison and critiques of DPRK.. specially when all we know is very little.

and how am i supposed to respect you when you have ronald reagan in your quote? lol :laugh:

[Bud Struggle]

i just don't like the western comparison and critiques of DPRK.. specially when all we know is very little.

and how am i supposed to respect you when you have ronald reagan in your quote? lol :laugh:

RR was brilliant. His Communist equivalent couldn't say something of the same and tear down Capitalism--could he?

I'm no theoritician, I'm a fan of what works. What WORKS! (Thus my problem with Communism in all it's guises.) I can make wheels turn and people smile as they toil. The rest is incidental children's talk.

Yet, I want to make the world better and people lives happier.

[R_P_A_S]

RR was brilliant. His Communist equivalent couldn't say something of the same and tear down Capitalism--could he?

I'm no theoritician, I'm a fan of what works. What WORKS! (Thus my problem with Communism in all it's guises.) I can make wheels turn and people smile as they toil. The rest is incidental children's talk.

Yet, I want to make the world better and people lives happier.

what works? tell me what works?
capitalism? ok. sure.

[RGacky3]

I can make wheels turn and people smile as they toil.

You talking about Capitalism???

[R_P_A_S]

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and Teodoro Obiang Nguema of Equatorial Guinea. Both "side" with Capitalism instead of Communism, but they are both ruthless dictators.

and they both are friends of Washington.

[RedStarOverChina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQwQQjDGbak

A documentary about Dresnok in Korea.

[Sankofa]

and they both are friends of Washington.

Exactly. If Kim Jong-Il was a capitalist, we wouldn't even hear criticism about him.

Washington has no problem with dictators as long as they are the ones pulling the strings.

[Bud Struggle]

Exactly. If Kim Jong-Il was a capitalist, we wouldn't even hear criticism about him.

Washington has no problem with dictators as long as they are the ones pulling the strings.

So separate the economics from the politics.

[Sky]

Democratic Korea is a free, independent, peaceful country that has enjoyed prosperity throughout its existence. The people of Democratic Korea have consistently stood up against U.S. imperialism and have rendered vital aid to national liberation movements worldwide, such as in the struggle of the Vietnamese people against imperialism. The Great Leader took an impoverished, backwards wasteland and transformed it into a major economic and military power. The DPRK provided some $25 million in aid to developing countries. By 1990, the DPRK provided military training to some 60 developing countries seeking to throw off neo-colonial intrigues.

While People's Korea has experienced hardships in recent years, this is exclusively due to bad weather, drought, and other natural disasters which have served to harm the country's agriculture. There was a simulataneous collapse of the country's foreign trade with the restoration of bourgeois rule in the member states of COMECON. The conditions of People's Korea in the 1990s should not be exaggerated. The facts show that daily per capita consumption in calories totalled about 2350 in 1995, down from about 2900 in 1990. However, in Russia, daily intake in calories declined from 3400 in 1985 to a 2100 by 1999. It is obvious that if there was a bourgeois take over in People's Korea, there would have been catastrophic consequences for the population just like the kind seen in Russia. The only solution to the Korean question is for the entire Korean nation to be brought under the unification of the DPRK, with the use of force if necessary. Those traitor quislings that serve the puppet regime maintained by the United States should be subject to serious consequences.

[Dean]

Democratic Korea is a free, independent, peaceful country that has enjoyed prosperity throughout its existence. The people of Democratic Korea have consistently stood up against U.S. imperialism and have rendered vital aid to national liberation movements worldwide, such as in the struggle of the Vietnamese people against imperialism. The Great Leader took an impoverished, backwards wasteland and transformed it into a major economic and military power. The DPRK provided some $25 million in aid to developing countries. By 1990, the DPRK provided military training to some 60 developing countries seeking to throw off neo-colonial intrigues.

While People's Korea has experienced hardships in recent years, this is exclusively due to bad weather, drought, and other natural disasters which have served to harm the country's agriculture. There was a simulataneous collapse of the country's foreign trade with the restoration of bourgeois rule in the member states of COMECON. The conditions of People's Korea in the 1990s should not be exaggerated. The facts show that daily per capita consumption in calories totalled about 2350 in 1995, down from about 2900 in 1990. However, in Russia, daily intake in calories declined from 3400 in 1985 to a 2100 by 1999. It is obvious that if there was a bourgeois take over in People's Korea, there would have been catastrophic consequences for the population just like the kind seen in Russia.
I think you're a troll.

[spartan]

Democratic Korea is a free, independent, peaceful country that has enjoyed prosperity throughout its existence. The people of Democratic Korea have consistently stood up against U.S. imperialism and have rendered vital aid to national liberation movements worldwide, such as in the struggle of the Vietnamese people against imperialism. The Great Leader took an impoverished, backwards wasteland and transformed it into a major economic and military power. The DPRK provided some $25 million in aid to developing countries. By 1990, the DPRK provided military training to some 60 developing countries seeking to throw off neo-colonial intrigues.

While People's Korea has experienced hardships in recent years, this is exclusively due to bad weather, drought, and other natural disasters which have served to harm the country's agriculture. There was a simulataneous collapse of the country's foreign trade with the restoration of bourgeois rule in the member states of COMECON. The conditions of People's Korea in the 1990s should not be exaggerated. The facts show that daily per capita consumption in calories totalled about 2350 in 1995, down from about 2900 in 1990. However, in Russia, daily intake in calories declined from 3400 in 1985 to a 2100 by 1999. It is obvious that if there was a bourgeois take over in People's Korea, there would have been catastrophic consequences for the population just like the kind seen in Russia.

Did you copy and paste this from the Korean Friendship Association (KFA) by any chance?:D

How can you say stuff like "The Great Leader took an impoverished, backwards wasteland and transformed it into a major economic and military power"?

First off no leader is "great" and secondly no leader can single handedly take an entire nation and transform it into a major power (Only an idol worshipper would say such a thing).

Sure Kim Il Sung may have been a huge influence in important decisions, but to credit him for every good thing (When it was actually Soviet and Chinese economic and military aid that allowed the DPRK to take a huge leap foward to transform itself into a economic and military power) is just absurd and is what makes people turn away from the DPRK.

To further my point about the importance of the USSR to the Korean economy, when the USSR and its Eastern Bloc dissolved in the early 90's, the DPRK went into a huge economic crises, not helped by huge natural disasters, which nearly destroyed the country (Economically it has never truely recovered since) and is said to have killed anywhere between a few hundred thousand to a few million people!

[Os Cangaceiros]

Democratic Korea is a free, independent, peaceful country that has enjoyed prosperity throughout its existence. The people of Democratic Korea have consistently stood up against U.S. imperialism and have rendered vital aid to national liberation movements worldwide, such as in the struggle of the Vietnamese people against imperialism. The Great Leader took an impoverished, backwards wasteland and transformed it into a major economic and military power. The DPRK provided some $25 million in aid to developing countries. By 1990, the DPRK provided military training to some 60 developing countries seeking to throw off neo-colonial intrigues.

While People's Korea has experienced hardships in recent years, this is exclusively due to bad weather, drought, and other natural disasters which have served to harm the country's agriculture. There was a simulataneous collapse of the country's foreign trade with the restoration of bourgeois rule in the member states of COMECON. The conditions of People's Korea in the 1990s should not be exaggerated. The facts show that daily per capita consumption in calories totalled about 2350 in 1995, down from about 2900 in 1990. However, in Russia, daily intake in calories declined from 3400 in 1985 to a 2100 by 1999. It is obvious that if there was a bourgeois take over in People's Korea, there would have been catastrophic consequences for the population just like the kind seen in Russia. The only solution to the Korean question is for the entire Korean nation to be brought under the unification of the DPRK, with the use of force if necessary. Those traitor quislings that serve the puppet regime maintained by the United States should be subject to serious consequences.


I'll believe that bullshit when I believe that Stalin was merely a victim of eevvvviilllll bourgeois capitalist propaganda, and never hurt a fly in his entire life.

In other words, never.

[Xiao Banfa]

RR was brilliant. His Communist equivalent couldn't say something of the same and tear down Capitalism--could he?

I'm no theoritician, I'm a fan of what works. What WORKS! (Thus my problem with Communism in all it's guises.) I can make wheels turn and people smile as they toil. The rest is incidental children's talk.

Yet, I want to make the world better and people lives happier.


So essentially what you are saying is 'might is right'. 'Communism' did work BTW the USSR didn't collapse quite as they say, it was dissolved.
That's another matter anyway. (The USSR isn't a model BTW)

Reagan was an absolute lunatic monster who should have been on trial for war crimes.

Looking the other way while his proxy armies committed Nanking-style war crimes in central america. Except on a larger scale.

Bypassing democratic consultation on foreign policy in order to allow cocaine trafficking by the contras.

The unholy alliance of the CIA, druglords, moonies, former nazis and professional torturers were a feature of the Reagan era.

For the US the Reagan era has seen the muzzling of journalists, the dismantling of the already threadbare welfare state and anti-democratic gangsterism in foreign countries.

He basically made selfishness cool again as well.

Reagan was probably one of the worst US presidents ever, and that's quite a title.

Just to take care of a few aspects of his reign you should check out a book by a veteran washington journalist called Robert Parry- Lost History.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1893517004/ref=sib_fs_top/002-5449952-9039245?ie=UTF8&p=S00B&checkSum=lCZWniD8WstflMF51hD4dkl5WYQDA48bnOtBlUaYM po%3D#reader-link

[chimx]

I've seen the documentary you are talking about. The nationalism displayed is disturbing. It depicts a cult of personality that has gone beyond that of cult and has entered a new religious level.

[RGacky3]

Although its right as many of you said, the only reason the US speaks out so much against North Korea is because its a Dictatorship that stands up to the US or is'nt obedient, that does'nt make it any better or worse than Dictatorships that do, I doubt the people in the prisons care.

[careyprice31]

I'll believe that bullshit when I believe that Stalin was merely a victim of eevvvviilllll bourgeois capitalist propaganda, and never hurt a fly in his entire life.

In other words, never.

Ditto .

Cannot agree more.

If NK was obiedient to the usa or was an ally, the usa wouldnt care a shit about if its a dictator.

Interesting to note that women in saudi arabia, US ally, are among the most oprressed in the world, yet the us has never actually spoken out publicly about the restricions placed on women in that country.

They only brought it up after the 9/11 attacks about abuse of women in afghanistan and how it was necessary to set them free.

Bfore 9/11 they never talked about it. I think they only used women's rights as an excuse, a reason, to invade that country to get revenge for the attack on them.

I only brought that up as evidence that the us really doesnt care about if a person is a dictator. If the dictator suits them, they jump on the bandwagon.

[RNK]

It depicts a cult of personality that has gone beyond that of cult and has entered a new religious level.

Juche? Songun? hehehe.

[palotin]

I don't think there can be much debate over whether the North Koreans are brainwashed. Only that, coupled with the constant threat and practice of brutal repression against dissenters and poor unfortunates could explain the survival of such a tyranny. That and China, other non-socialist state.

[pusher robot]

Interesting to note that women in saudi arabia, US ally, are among the most oprressed in the world, yet the us has never actually spoken out publicly about the restricions placed on women in that country.

That's completely untrue. The U.S. has repeatedly condemned Saudi Arabia's repeated human rights violations in its official publications. See, e.g. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8296.htm.

Now, you might claim that the U.S. has done very little to actually try to compel Saudi Arabia to change, and that would be a fair criticism; though totally hypocritical, if you oppose U.S. interventionism in the abstract.

[Dean]

That's completely untrue. The U.S. has repeatedly condemned Saudi Arabia's repeated human rights violations in its official publications. See, e.g. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8296.htm.

Now, you might claim that the U.S. has done very little to actually try to compel Saudi Arabia to change, and that would be a fair criticism; though totally hypocritical, if you oppose U.S. interventionism in the abstract.

Rescinding military aid is not interventionist, it is humanist. And there are various reasons to condemn those who gives nations like Sauid Arabia arms, not the least of which is their record on womens' rights. If the U.S. gave a damn, it would do the same thing it does to every other nation it gives aid to - give them ultimatums (in this case to respect basic human rights) or they don't get 300Bn in military aid. The people wont starve, but the government will respond.

[Lenin II]

I have seen this documentary you watched, and it was the most pitiful counterrevolutionary piece of brainwashed garbage I have ever seen. They repeat ad nauseum every single bourgeoisie lie ever told about North Korea and offer NO evidence WHATSOEVER for its claims.

Kim Jong-Il created global warming and AIDS according to these people. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who swallows these lies unquestioningly does not make up one millimeter of the left.

[Ele'ill]

I have seen this documentary you watched, and it was the most pitiful counterrevolutionary piece of brainwashed garbage I have ever seen. They repeat ad nauseum every single bourgeoisie lie ever told about North Korea and offer NO evidence WHATSOEVER for its claims.

Kim Jong-Il created global warming and AIDS according to these people. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who swallows these lies unquestioningly does make up one millimeter of the left.

I assume you're talking about the documentary that I mentioned and not one that someone has mentioned a page or two back in the thread. The evidence is that it was a documentary and that the Koreans were acting bizarre.

[pusher robot]

Rescinding military aid is not interventionist, it is humanist. And there are various reasons to condemn those who gives nations like Sauid Arabia arms, not the least of which is their record on womens' rights. If the U.S. gave a damn, it would do the same thing it does to every other nation it gives aid to - give them ultimatums (in this case to respect basic human rights) or they don't get 300Bn in military aid. The people wont starve, but the government will respond.

First of all, U.S. military aid to Saudi Arabia is not very significant - I'm going to go ahead and guess that you pulled that $300bn figure out of your ass. In fact, the Saudis are quite wealthy can readily finance their own military.

But even assuming that it were significant, would what you say really be logical? Suppose the U.S. rescinds aid to Saudi Arabia, a repressive but relatively moderate theocracy, and the result is a takeover by Iran, an even more repressive, more hard-line theocracy. Can you objectively say that this was a "humanist" result? Is it always "humanist" to permit a greater evil to prevail over a lesser evil?

[Demogorgon]

First of all, U.S. military aid to Saudi Arabia is not very significant - I'm going to go ahead and guess that you pulled that $300bn figure out of your ass. In fact, the Saudis are quite wealthy can readily finance their own military.

But even assuming that it were significant, would what you say really be logical? Suppose the U.S. rescinds aid to Saudi Arabia, a repressive but relatively moderate theocracy, and the result is a takeover by Iran, an even more repressive, more hard-line theocracy. Can you objectively say that this was a "humanist" result? Is it always "humanist" to permit a greater evil to prevail over a lesser evil?

Hang on, how can you seriously say Iran is a more hardline theocracy than Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia makes Iran look pretty mild.

[RHIZOMES]

Hang on, how can you seriously say Iran is a more hardline theocracy than Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia makes Iran look pretty mild.

it's because Iran is the enemy. Saudi Arabia is the friend.