Question

[NWO]

How is it that Anarchists and Socialists can get along when each ideology opposes each other. Anarchy is completely unstatist where Socialism is completely statist. I do not understand.

[mikelepore]

In which of your two categories would you consider Marx and Engels?

Are you familar with the following written works?

***


"In reality, however, the state is nothing but a machine for the oppression of one class by another, and indeed in the democratic republic no less than in the monarchy; and at best an evil inherited by the proletariat after its victorious struggle for class supremacy, whose worst sides the victorious proletariat, just like the Commune, cannot avoid having to lop off at once as much as possible until such time as a generation reared in new, free social conditions is able to throw the entire lumber of the state on the scrap heap."

-- Marx, in _The Civil War in France_


"The working class, in the course of its development, will substitute for the old civil society an association which will exclude classes and their antagonism, and there will be no more political power, properly so called, since political power is precisely the official expression of antagonism in class society."

-- Marx in _The Poverty of Philosophy_


"All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society."

-- Engels in _On Authority_


"Revolution in general - the overthrow of the existing power and dissolution of the old relationships - is a political act. But socialism cannot be realised without revolution. It needs this political act insofar as it needs distruction and dissolution. But where its organising activity begins, where its proper object, its soul, comes to the fore -- there socialism throws off the political cloak."

-- Marx in _Critical Margin Notes on 'The King of Prussia and Social Reform'_


"The existence of the state is inseparable from the existence of slavery."

-- Marx, Ibid.


"When, at last, it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection; as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon our present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from these, are removed, nothing more remains to be repressed, and a special repressive force, a State, is no longer necessary. The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society -- the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society -- this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not 'abolished'. It dies out. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase 'a free State', both as to its justifiable use at times by agitators, and as to its ultimate scientific inefficiency; and also of the demands of the so-called anarchists for the abolition of the State out of hand."

-- Engels, In _Socialism: Utopian and Scientific_

[Feslin]

How is it that Anarchists and Socialists can get along when each ideology opposes each other. Anarchy is completely unstatist where Socialism is completely statist. I do not understand.

There are two different forms of socialists, in general. The less down to earth "governmentless classless paradise on earth" types, and the more down to earth if equally wrong "state power over private enterprise" types.

That's how I see it, anyways.

[Sentinel]

How is it that Anarchists and Socialists can get along when each ideology opposes each other. Anarchy is completely unstatist where Socialism is completely statist. I do not understand.

Well, we don't really get a long. But the smartest of us realise that a common enemy and end goal are reasons enough to cooperate in the struggle on individual occasions, such as organising actions etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't -- while both sides frequently accuse the other for sectarian knives in the back, and there sure is an abundance of historical documentation to back many of these claims, then again there are some examples of the contrary as well.

Why is this topic in Opposing Ideologies btw? Learning would have been more appropriate -- unless you are specifically interested in the right wing view of the issue, or hold an opposing ideology yourself and expect to be restricted.


The less down to earth "governmentless classless paradise on earth" typesA society without a central government doesn't equal a society without any form of government. While there are some individualist anarchists who wish for society to have minimal impact on their lives, class war anarchists -- the type you are likely to meet on here -- aim for a society organised along the lines of federalism and direct democracy. Such a people's government is actually far more advanced than a central one, far from the utopia you just made it sound like..

[Tupac-Amaru]

unless you are specifically interested in the right wing view of the issue.

Here's the right wing view on the issue:

Marx use to fuck goats at the edge of cliffs!!!
and socialists/communists are all douchebags.


anarchists i have more respect for...i always believe in reducing the size of the state...

[Dystisis]

Here's the right wing view on the issue:

Marx use to fuck goats at the edge of cliffs!!!
and socialists/communists are all douchebags.


anarchists i have more respect for...i always believe in reducing the size of the state...

Lovely of you to sum up the right wings thoughts and theories. :)

[apathy maybe]

Hey Tupac-Amaru, that's a good way to get banned you know.

And then I bet you will whine about censor-ship or something. Well fuck off and go back to school and learn some more about how to treat other people.


Personally, I think that Sentinel summed it up. State socialists and anti-state socialists cooperate against a common enemy, capitalism. But when push comes to shove, anti-statists will keep on trying to reduce or eliminate the state.

[Tupac-Amaru]

And then I bet you will whine about censor-ship or something. Well fuck off and go back to school and learn some more about how to treat other people.

I probably will whine because, unlike you commie bastards who love to oppress dissent, i believe in free speech :-P

I am at school, I'm at Stanford. And I do know how to treat other people...but commies aren't people...are they?

[Bandito]

Of course we can get along.
We have our opposite views in a philosophical matter,and real enemies in the "real world".
And of course we will continue to fight for our specific ideals,but it is a good thing that socialists and anarchists work together,and fight capitalism and fascism with joined powers.

[RGacky3]

Leninists for the most part are willing to work with Anarchists as long as Anarchists are willing to take orders from them.

[Dr Mindbender]

I probably will whine because, unlike you commie bastards who love to oppress dissent, i believe in free speech :-P

I am at school, I'm at Stanford. And I do know how to treat other people...but commies aren't people...are they?

ignorant privileged asshole.


I think your mommy is calling, your dinners ready!

[Whitten]

Socialism is a broad category which includes most forms of anarchism as well as communism (marxism) and reformist varieties (usually under the name democratic-socialism)

[RedStarOverChina]

I probably will whine because, unlike you commie bastards who love to oppress dissent, i believe in free speech :-P

I am at school, I'm at Stanford. And I do know how to treat other people...but commies aren't people...are they?
A fine specimen of brainless spoiled brat you are. :rolleyes: Use that empty scull of yours and see if you can comprehend this: no one will take the time to read your post if all you say is crap.

So do try to say something intelligent for a change.



I agree with Sentinel...I personally don't get along with many anarchists, but they are far from being my enemies.

[Bandito]

And I do know how to treat other people...but commies aren't people...are they?
Good one.
Fuck you,you moronic piece of shit.
Go chase the american dream at Stanford.

[Tupac-Amaru]

no one will take the time to read your post if all you say is crap.

So do try to say something intelligent for a change.


Man believe me I tried! I really tried to have intellectual, serious discussions with you people! But you are so closed-minded and so are so in love with a sick twisted dream of romantic socialist paradise you refuse to see reality and see your own absurdity. You believe your philosophy to be so unequivocally wrong that I’ve given up and am resorting be a real asshole and make immature comments to you guys…I find it be a lot more constructive…

Because trust me: all the pointless discussions you guys keep having, THEY AINT CONSTRUCTIVE! You are just wasting your time chasing your pipe dream called communism.

This whole website is a waste of internet space!

[RedStarOverChina]

This whole website is a waste of internet space!

Surely it is worth something!

All of the changes that we ever had were results of political discourses followed by political actions.

I believe the entire American empire started with a handful of people meeting in secret discussions in Philadelphia.

Oh, and the next time you come up with another one of your no-brainers such as "communism isn't possible", be sure to provide some evidence.


Canada's "Defense" Minister before and during WWI once famously proclaimed "all that can be invented have been invented."

Imagine how utterly embarrassed he was when he heard about the first tanks!

[apathy maybe]

Man believe me I tried! I really tried to have intellectual, serious discussions with you people! But you are so closed-minded and so are so in love with a sick twisted dream of romantic socialist paradise you refuse to see reality and see your own absurdity. You believe your philosophy to be so unequivocally wrong that I’ve given up and am resorting be a real asshole and make immature comments to you guys…I find it be a lot more constructive…

Because trust me: all the pointless discussions you guys keep having, THEY AINT CONSTRUCTIVE! You are just wasting your time chasing your pipe dream called communism.

This whole website is a waste of internet space!

Funny, many people around here have tried to have serious intellectual discussions with capitalists, but they are so in love with a sick twisted dream of a capitalist paradise, that they refuse to see reality and their own absurdity. They believe their philosophy to be so unequivocally correct...

If it is more constructive to be an arsehole then actually engage in discussion, then I suggest that you are wasting your time at Uni, and if you really do find this website a waste of Internet space then you should leave it rather then encourage it.

Anyway, here is a hint, if you are going to be an arsehole, no one will bother trying to have a constructive debate with you, and thus you will never know what you are missing. My suggestion, kill yourself, you obviously are just a waste of oxygen and space. Stanford (if you really are going to that uni, rather then just lying to make yourself look good) is wasting their time with someone who should really learn some basic grammar. (In the sentence, "anarchists i have more respect for...i always believe in reducing the size of the state...", anarchists should have a capital 'A', and it should be I, not i ...).

Meanwhile those capitalists who actually bother to have a constructive debate rather then act like ignorant children (as you appear to prefer), actually learn things have their ideas challenged and potentially find the whole thing slightly fun.

[NWO]

What will you do once you defeat the common enemy? Will you turn on each other?