Revolutions of 1989

[Bud Struggle]

There has never been a revolution in an indistrialized nation.

I beg to differ a bit. In 1991 there was a revolution in Russia. There was also revolutions in Poland and in Hungary and in East Germany and in Yugoslavia and Rumania and Albania and Belarus and the Ukraine and Armenia, and Georgia and Lithuania and Estonia and Latvia and Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia and a bunch of other countries that were part of the USSR.

They just had revolutions in the "other" direction. :)

[Bilan]

You could also count France
(but it was agricultural and industrial) in 1871.
(That might also be a bit early though).

Even so, in all countries, there has been, at some point (and more than once, no doubt) large revolutionary movements.

Australia's general strike in 1917?

And seeing as you're all from America (surprisingly), you should know that America has had a long, violent, and revolutionary labor history (with obvious exceptions)

[Die Neue Zeit]

TomK doesn't know what the term "revolution" means (please, check out some actual Russian discussions of the period 1990-1993). :lol:

The only "revolution" in Eastern Europe that I can really think of that was for real was the one in Romania.

[Bud Struggle]

TomK doesn't know what the term "revolution" means (please, check out some actual Russian discussions of the period 1990-1993). :lol:

The only "revolution" in Eastern Europe that I can really think of that was for real was the one in Romania.

Oh, I know what "revolution" means. It means people taking action into their own hands to over throw tyranny.

Please see my list of revolutions above. :) The Communist countries of eeastern Europe allied with the Soviet Union were dictatorships--the people over threw those dictatorships. It's wasn't economic--it was political. I don't need to check out "discussions." I was in Russia a week after the Russian Parlement was stormed. I was in Poland before Solidarity took over (I'm Polish American) I watched it all take place. They were revolutions.

They all didn't get the freedom they were looking for. Poland got it, the Czech Republic, Slovokia, the Blatic states, in a way. Russia--no.

[Demogorgon]

They all didn't get the freedom they were looking for. Poland got it, the Czech Republic, Slovokia, the Blatic states, in a way. Russia--no.

Hang on here. The Czech Republic, Slovakia etc got standard western European polyarchy. Take what you will from that. Poland however got a long stream of ultra-right wing authoritarian governments and religious domination, there is a reason why people are leaving Poland in large numbers whereas the other Eastern European countries are seen as attractive places to live. How on Earth can you say Poland somehow got the most freedom?

[Zurdito]

also, Roma in Slovakia are hardly "free".

[Demogorgon]

also, Roma in Slovakia are hardly "free".

Well quite. But Poland is a particularly nasty example of what followed Eastern Block Communism. I am quite shocked to hear it referred to as the shining example of achieving "freedom". Normally the defenders of capitalism like to sweep Poland under the rug because it is embarrassing and talk about the other countries that, at first sight at least, are doing well.

I suspect it is simple mistake of fact that has caused TomK to claim that Poland has done well rather than any particularly nasty (beyond the usual capitalist stuff) political inclinations, but all the same it is slightly odd to see Poland described as a positive example of anything rather than the fact you can get a considerably better life simply by leaving it.

[Bud Struggle]

Hang on here. The Czech Republic, Slovakia etc got standard western European polyarchy. Take what you will from that. Poland however got a long stream of ultra-right wing authoritarian governments and religious domination, there is a reason why people are leaving Poland in large numbers whereas the other Eastern European countries are seen as attractive places to live. How on Earth can you say Poland somehow got the most freedom?

Fair question.

ASnd true a bit subjective on my part. I'm a Polish Catholic--but it seems the Polish people seem to have gotten what they (I) like. They (and I) are happy with the country Poland turned into. On the other hand the Polish NEVER liked Communism. Poland is a CATHOLIC country.

As for people leaving Poland--they left to go to England mainly to get jobs and earn money--now that the economy of Poland is starting to boom (after 60 years,) the Poles are returning home. See the article below.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3378877.ece

[вор в законе]

I know exactly how you feel.

[Bud Struggle]

I know exactly how you feel.

You know how I "feel" or are you smothering your enemies with terror?

[Demogorgon]

Fair question.

ASnd true a bit subjective on my part. I'm a Polish Catholic--but it seems the Polish people seem to have gotten what they (I) like. They (and I) are happy with the country Poland turned into. On the other hand the Polish NEVER liked Communism. Poland is a CATHOLIC country.

As for people leaving Poland--they left to go to England mainly to get jobs and earn money--now that the economy of Poland is starting to boom (after 60 years,) the Poles are returning home. See the article below.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3378877.eceIt is a bit suspect to say that the Poles get what they want. Completely different Governments keep getting elected. And at any rate rapidly they won't get to choose at all. The previous government tried to ban the opposition and the current one is trying to change the electoral system to remove as much choice as possible. And as for freedom, well tell that to gay people suffering extreme prejudice and legal oppression or people of Russian origin faced with racism or indeed people who simply want to attend a concert on one of the days the government suddenly decides to ban them for a set period and so forth. None of that is happening in the other Eastern European countries (regardless of what other faults there may be), so as I say calling Poland the most free stretches credibility.

As for people leaving Poland to expand the economy, sure. Lots of people are coming over here looking for work (you can finally get a plumber here for a decent price, before the Poles came, they were paid more than Brain surgeons, no joke) but look at it in comparison to the other Eastern European countries. Poland is the only country with really significant numbers of people leaving (and in many cases, not going back). There are fuck all opportunites there, so it isn't surprising. On the other hand lots of people here in Western Europe are moving to Eastern Europe, just not Poland. Ask someone if they want to like in Hungary or the Czech Republic and they may well say yes, ask them if they want to live in Poland and they will look at you as if you are mad.

[вор в законе]

You know how I "feel" or are you smothering your enemies with terror?

I was not talking to you son.

[Bud Struggle]

It is a bit suspect to say that the Poles get what they want. Completely different Governments keep getting elected. And at any rate rapidly they won't get to choose at all. The previous government tried to ban the opposition and the current one is trying to change the electoral system to remove as much choice as possible. And as for freedom, well tell that to gay people suffering extreme prejudice and legal oppression or people of Russian origin faced with racism or indeed people who simply want to attend a concert on one of the days the government suddenly decides to ban them for a set period and so forth. None of that is happening in the other Eastern European countries (regardless of what other faults there may be), so as I say calling Poland the most free stretches credibility.

As for people leaving Poland to expand the economy, sure. Lots of people are coming over here looking for work (you can finally get a plumber here for a decent price, before the Poles came, they were paid more than Brain surgeons, no joke) but look at it in comparison to the other Eastern European countries. Poland is the only country with really significant numbers of people leaving (and in many cases, not going back). There are fuck all opportunites there, so it isn't surprising. On the other hand lots of people here in Western Europe are moving to Eastern Europe, just not Poland. Ask someone if they want to like in Hungary or the Czech Republic and they may well say yes, ask them if they want to live in Poland and they will look at you as if you are mad.

I think both our takes on Poland are a bit subjective. There is pleanty of western capital ready to roll into Poland as soon as they get a constant political consortium to rule the place for a while. It is a bit of an issue.

On the other hand I see the Polish diasporia as a temporary issue--it works for them, not for the other post Communist countries. We can see how all this plays out, but for what it's worth--they hated Communism.

[Bud Struggle]

I was not talking to you son.

I'm 49-how old are you old man? :lol:

[Demogorgon]

but for what it's worth--they hated Communism.
Sure, they certainly hated what passed for Communism there, but let me be clear, I am not making any argument regarding whether Poland is better now than then (there is nothing to be gained from that as we will only disagree). My argument is that Poland in 2008 sucks compared to Hungary or the Czech Republic in 2008

[Bud Struggle]

Sure, they certainly hated what passed for Communism there, but let me be clear, I am not making any argument regarding whether Poland is better now than then (there is nothing to be gained from that as we will only disagree). My argument is that Poland in 2008 sucks compared to Hungary or the Czech Republic in 2008

I don't see it. I've been to all those countries in the last year or so--Poland it seems is going back a bit bucolic compared to the others--but the people are happy and satisfied. I see a lot of "westernization" in Hungary and the Czech Republic, Poland seens to be happy do do without it. It comes down to a matter of tase. All in all nothing compaired to the horror of Belarus and now what's become of Russia.

[careyprice31]

"I beg to differ a bit. In 1991 there was a revolution in Russia. There was also revolutions in Poland and in Hungary and in East Germany and in Yugoslavia and Rumania and Albania and Belarus and the Ukraine and Armenia, and Georgia and Lithuania and Estonia and Latvia and Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia and a bunch of other countries that were part of the USSR. "

Wasn't a revolution, sorry to tell you. Gorbachev merely wanted to reform the system, not completely change it. He still wanted the USSR still to exist.

You have a narrow view point of revolution if you think its about only rising up and overthrowing tyranny. I wrote a good definition of it in the introduction thread to a rookie forum member but idk if i could find it now.

[manic expression]

I don't see it. I've been to all those countries in the last year or so--Poland it seems is going back a bit bucolic compared to the others--but the people are happy and satisfied. I see a lot of "westernization" in Hungary and the Czech Republic, Poland seens to be happy do do without it. It comes down to a matter of tase. All in all nothing compaired to the horror of Belarus and now what's become of Russia.

Please, stop trying to fool yourself. The former Soviet bloc countries are very fine examples of the tragedy of capitalism. Even the Baltic states, sometimes seen as the best of the bunch, are seeing living standards drop. In every catagory of life, from life expectancy to homelessness to education to rampant racism to unemployment, these countries have gotten much worse after the fall of socialism. Belarus, on the other hand, has not seen such drastic declines in life and community.

And if you want to talk about freedom, let's talk about how the Czech Republic outlawed the communist youth organization while allowing neo-Nazis to march through Plzen.

If vapid talk of people being "happy" is the best evidence you have, you know you're in trouble. Face it: your arguments don't hold up to facts.

[Joby]

Sorry Tom, I meant Revolution in the bloody sense. Or as the sense certain people like to romanticize about.

But yes, I would certainly call the uprisings a revolution.

[Bilan]

Thats because, Joby, you're a complete fucking idiot.
You're the type who would call the labor party getting elected "a revolution".
Thus, your opinion is worthless.

[Joby]

Thats because, Joby, you're a complete fucking idiot.
You're the type who would call the labor party getting elected "a revolution".
Thus, your opinion is worthless.

hmmm......

In every one of those countries, the ruling political systems were overthrown.

In every one of those countries, the economic system was overthrown.

Not just reformed, completely overthrown. Whether or not this was the original intent, it's what happened. Completely done away with. Erased. Bye-bye. Adios. Sionora. Peace out.

That's a revolution.

You're a fucking moron. Why don't you actually debate my points?

[Joby]

You could also count France
(but it was agricultural and industrial) in 1871.
(That might also be a bit early though).

In 1871, you were hot shit if you could get 3 shots off a minute.

In the industrialized world today, hot shit is a few thousand rounds a second.



Even so, in all countries, there has been, at some point (and more than once, no doubt) large revolutionary movements.

Australia's general strike in 1917?

And seeing as you're all from America (surprisingly), you should know that America has had a long, violent, and revolutionary labor history (with obvious exceptions)


Since when does a "revolutionary movement" equal revolution?

Both of these movements may have ben revolutionary but, obviously, the workers decided reformed Capitalism was better. Don't take my word for it, take their inaction.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Thats because, Joby, you're a complete fucking idiot.
Win.

[Joby]

Win.

Once again, the failure of the Left to step up to the plate.

Seriously, actually debate what I wrote.

Your theories suck, and I'd be happy to point out some reasons why if you want to debate. Whether tha's Trotskyism specifically, armed revolution,. or Communism itself. If not, leave me the fuck alone and kiss his ass in the CC.