Patriot

[darkened day 92]

I am egyptian and although egypt is soooo screwed up my friends are still patriotic. Patriotism is something that is greatly golorified between both right wingers and leftists. What can your unexplainable relation with some dirt and bricks make you give up? What defines a country is it: the citizens, the land, the land owners, the land workers, the history, the government. what is a country? why do people put great emphisis on something so irrational? i mean Che Guevara forexample fought for a cause and a belif he loved the cubans as much as he loved the africans as much as he loved all the people he tried to revolutionize? Is it simply primitive propaganda to protect the land of birth? or is it something that has been engraved in our souls by god. Take forexample the idiology of the Germans in the third Riech they were friends with the jews they lived side by side with them but their irrational sense of patriotism and belonging forced them to accept that the people they have been communicating with for so long are getting gassed. Stalin made all the people in Russia esp. feel great pride of their land eventhough he killed millions.
What's your view on this?

[Dimentio]

I am egyptian and although egypt is soooo screwed up my friends are still patriotic. Patriotism is something that is greatly golorified between both right wingers and leftists. What can your unexplainable relation with some dirt and bricks make you give up? What defines a country is it: the citizens, the land, the land owners, the land workers, the history, the government. what is a country? why do people put great emphisis on something so irrational? i mean Che Guevara forexample fought for a cause and a belif he loved the cubans as much as he loved the africans as much as he loved all the people he tried to revolutionize? Is it simply primitive propaganda to protect the land of birth? or is it something that has been engraved in our souls by god. Take forexample the idiology of the Germans in the third Riech they were friends with the jews they lived side by side with them but their irrational sense of patriotism and belonging forced them to accept that the people they have been communicating with for so long are getting gassed. Stalin made all the people in Russia esp. feel great pride of their land eventhough he killed millions.
What's your view on this?

Pharaonic Egypt was quite impressive. Modern day Egypt... nah...

[Sentinel]

Patriotism is something that is greatly golorified between both right wingers and leftists.Some socialist movements, as well as real-socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism) states and leaders, have indeed attempted to appeal to people's patriotic feelings in their rhetoric ('great patriotic war', patria o muerte, etc). But despite this I'd say that most on the revolutionary left in fact oppose and work against notions of patriotism and nationalism, in favor of internationalism.

Especially left communists and anarchists are very much against the concepts of patriotism and nationalism, even though most others are -- to varying degrees -- as well. After all, the communist goal includes the unity of workers from all countries, and nationalism is counterproductive to that.

However, some communists do support nationalist movements in the third world in the name of anti-imperialism -- an appoach that creates a lot of tension and controversy within the left, as you will notice by reading forums like this.


or is it something that has been engraved in our souls by god.Whatever it is, it's certainly not that.. ;)

[RNK]

More often than not, communists who denounce national liberation movements in the third world misunderstand the nature of "national resistence". It all has to do with sovereignty and self-determination; a national liberation movement is the fight for just that.

Even bourgeois democracy is a progressive step up from imperialist repression of even political "freedom". Just as it was workers' right to fight against fuedalism -- even side-by-side with the infant bourgeoisie -- it is workers' right to fight foreign domination in their lands, fields, factories, villages, towns and cities.

[Red_or_Dead]

I think that pretty much all of us feel the same way about nationalism, and about most patriots.

If patriotism means that one wants the best for his/her country (which is what I used to think), then its fine by me, because being a communist, I think that a revoultion and a communist society is the best for any given country.

But usualy patriots only glorify their own country, and patriotsim as such is one of the fundamental elements of nationalism. I dont know why people feel that way. Nationalistic education, different languages... Whatever. Its dumb. Thats all there is.

[Apollodorus]

Yes, nations. Perhaps the greatest obstacle mankind faces today, greater than economic exploitation and class divisions (although few here would agree with me). The bourgeoisie kill, yes, they make people poor, homeless; but national divisions: men kill men willingly, knowingly. It surely must be the greater of the two evils.

Why do they exist? Simply because Man is inherently selfish. There is nothing right or wrong about it, and those who pretend they are not are lying to themselves. Nations begin because people want to dominate others, to influence them, so when they die their influence will live on. It operates on the same principle for wanting to be a teacher, say. But give these trifling divisions time and they develop into pride. Just like, over time, the pride of a man for himself, or his football team, or anything else develops. Like all pride, it inevitably leads to indifference to the opposition's welfare. It leads then to wilful violence and death. Engraved in our souls by God? There are two things there which disturb me. Firstly, if God devised a concept such as the nation, then he is no wise, good God, but rather the Devil. Secondly, the use of the word, 'engraved'. If nationalism is engraved upon our souls, then God help us.

[last_angry_man]

Here in the USA, blind nationalism / "patriotism' has been taken to new levels of absurdity. We are taught from the 1st year of school to believe that the USA is the greatest country in the history of mankind and that we were chosen to lead the people of all nations toward a world based on christian / capitalist fundamentals. We are purposely kept from learning our nation's crimes against men and nations while we are told that all important advances / discoveries are the result of the American work ethic (and faith!)

The scary part is that 95% of the populace seems to buy in without any questions.

[KurtFF8]

Some socialist movements, as well as real-socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism) states and leaders, have indeed attempted to appeal to people's patriotic feelings in their rhetoric ('great patriotic war', patria o muerte, etc). But despite this I'd say that most on the revolutionary left in fact oppose and work against notions of patriotism and nationalism, in favor of internationalism.

Especially left communists and anarchists are very much against the concepts of patriotism and nationalism, even though most others are -- to varying degrees -- as well. After all, the communist goal includes the unity of workers from all countries, and nationalism is counterproductive to that.

However, some communists do support nationalist movements in the third world in the name of anti-imperialism -- an appoach that creates a lot of tension and controversy within the left, as you will notice by reading forums like this.

Whatever it is, it's certainly not that.. ;)

Although the USSR used it so much that they attempted to make "protecting revolution" equal to the security and strength of the USSR as a nation. Nationalism became a key part of Stalinism which is why Stalinism isn't my favorite ideology.

[Dros]

The Patriots are a good football team (in the US sense of football I'm afraid) but other than that patriots aren't good for much.:D:D:D

The only way for people to really understand what's wrong with nationalism is to develop revolutionary class conciousness. With that, you understand that a proletarian in Egypt has more in common with a proletarian in Peru than with a member of the Bourgeoisie in Egypt. Then it's pretty hard to get all patriotic.

[Dyslexia! Well I Never!]

Nations are the leftovers of kingdoms and empires that were bounded by the strength (economic or military) of those who ruled where contact with outsiders was generally limited to them being invaders or them being invaded.

Of course you could go by the concept that a patriot is somebody who feels a connection for those around him and by extention those of his country and will attempt to do what is best for them.

While this can be dangerous (Nazi indoctrination of children springs to mind) it can also cause the abolishion of unjust aspect of a society (like Martin Luther King's non-violent racial equality movement, or a worker's strike) for class consciousness is but one way forward, once there is an example (a country that has acheived a 'perfect' state) other states (nations or their people) will follow this example and true internationalism can be acheived.

[Bandito]

Patriotism is a term that can't be related to communism.
In any way.