Reactionaries Unite!

[LSD]

So now that I'm an evil capitalist, I guees I should get together with my reactionary buddies and talk. I really don't know if I'm going to keep posting on this board, but the sadist in me really can't resist. There's just something too deliciously ironic in deconstructing what you helped to build.

But don't get me wrong, it's not like capitalism doesn't have many serious problems. I haven't transmogrophied into Milton Friedman. I've just opened my eyes to the world around me.

So come on! Let's have some soft-left discusssion!

I realy don't know, though, what the general political position of this forum is, however, so I don't know how constructive it could be but I'm game for it ! :)

[RNK]

TAT is much more efficient at getting attention than you. Sorry.

But I understand you're feeling very defensive right now. Nothing more invigorating than being awash in a sea of hostility to make you feel all righteous.

[RebelDog]

But don't get me wrong, it's not like capitalism doesn't have many serious problems. I haven't transmogrophied into Milton Friedman. I've just opened my eyes to the world around me.

But you and Friedman basically want the same things now, whether you like it or not: more capitalism to solve its own massive shortcomings whilst the bourgeoisie win, win, win. I'm guessing your not one of the people who will have to endure the harsh end of this policy?

[Dean]

So now that I'm an evil capitalist, I guees I should get together with my reactionary buddies and talk. I really don't know if I'm going to keep posting on this board, but the sadist in me really can't resist. There's just something too deliciously ironic in deconstructing what you helped to build.

But don't get me wrong, it's not like capitalism doesn't have many serious problems. I haven't transmogrophied into Milton Friedman. I've just opened my eyes to the world around me.

So come on! Let's have some soft-left discusssion!

I realy don't know, though, what the general political position of this forum is, however, so I don't know how constructive it could be but I'm game for it ! :)
While I doubt that you are really as reactionary as you lead on (the taboo has probably encouraged you to say some of what you've said) I am still annoyed, and surprised to see you restricted. I don't see your ideas as fundamentally changed all that much, but now you're unwanted, that's sad.

As for the general political position here... it's schizophrenic :rolleyes:

[RNK]

Why are you restricted, Dean? Of all OIers you seem to be one of the most benign. Unless I just haven't seen you act out whatever it is you're restricted for -- maybe you're militantly anti-abortion.

[RedAnarchist]

I bet this is just an April Fools prank and in a months time we'll all be laughing about it:p

[RNK]

No, I dont think he's joking... afterall, he was an anarchist for how long? And then he goes and hangs out with some Trots?! It's no surprise his morale and confidence has been shattered! hanging around clown-faced idiots prancing around protests and slack-jawed Marxist-Leninists asking you to vote NDP would give anyone revolutionary chills. :D

[Dean]

Why are you restricted, Dean? Of all OIers you seem to be one of the most benign. Unless I just haven't seen you act out whatever it is you're restricted for -- maybe you're militantly anti-abortion.

No, I love abortion. I have said some things that don't follow the official party line here, but nothing genuinely worthy of restriction.

[RNK]

I remember seeing some posts in the CC about unrestricting you, but tbh I never paid any attention to them, and I'm not in the CC anymore, so I guess this will remain a mystery.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Here's a question for you, LSD:

How do you deal with the fact that social democracy and the "soft left" has been in decline for the past quarter century? You seem to talk as if the revolutionary left is ineffective while reformism is booming, which is far from the truth. Reformism is dying. In some places it's already dead. The revolutionary left isn't exactly sweeping the world, but at least it is stable. We haven't had any major triumphs or defeats in quite some time.

You seem to have just discovered that we live in reactionary times. No shit... OF COURSE we live in reactionary times. But they won't last forever. 69 years passed between the publication of the Communist Manifesto and the Bolshevik Revolution.

If, on the other hand, you have somehow managed to convince yourself that the current political situation of the world will persist for all eternity - perhaps by reading too much Fukuyama - then you might as well shoot yourself, because the current political situation is even more destructive of reformism than of revolutionary leftism.

Your sudden change of heart conjures up in my mind the image of a 19th century bourgeois revolutionary who, following the defeat of Napoleon, would say "all is lost; feudalism has triumphed; liberalism is a lost cause."

[Bud Struggle]

So now that I'm an evil capitalist, I guees I should get together with my reactionary buddies and talk. I really don't know if I'm going to keep posting on this board, but the sadist in me really can't resist. There's just something too deliciously ironic in deconstructing what you helped to build.

But don't get me wrong, it's not like capitalism doesn't have many serious problems. I haven't transmogrophied into Milton Friedman. I've just opened my eyes to the world around me.

So come on! Let's have some soft-left discusssion!

I realy don't know, though, what the general political position of this forum is, however, so I don't know how constructive it could be but I'm game for it ! :)

Remember what the Capitalist's Glorious Leader Satan once said: Better to reign in hell, than serve in heav'n.

Welcome to the dark side. The yachts, the babes and the Bentleys will be deliviered shortly. :thumbup: :lol:

[Demogorgon]

Yes, it is a good point that Social Democracy is not in the best of shapes itself lately. In 1960 I can see why someone might have come to the conclusion that Social Democracy was actually on to something. We had good public services and a decent welfare state, standards of living were definitely rising, for the only time in the history of capitalism, inequality was falling, the West German Social Market was speeding ahead of anything we had seen laisse-faire capitalism offer u, the British welfare state was in great shape. Harold MacMillan might just have been onto something when he said "you have never had it so good", (though not all of us had "it").

However how come all this happened because Capitalism had a serious challenge on its hands. The Soviet Union was booming, and at the time there was serious concern amongst western capitalists that they would lose the cold war. They needed to offer serious concessions to the Working Classes of their own countries to keep them sweet. Hence a lot of countries got really quite nice welfare states and all that.

As soon as the Soviet Union started to stagnate however, the bourgeoisie pulled the plug. Bretton-Woods collapsed and Social Democracy unravelled. One of the (many) outrages of capitalism is it gives those with serious financial muscle the ability to control what a Government does, even if that government is determined it will not go along with them. Read Tony Benn's diaries to see how the capitalists started dismantling British Social Demcoracy by out and out blackmailing the (Social Democratic) Government in power in the seventies.

I won't deny that Social Democracy sounds quite appealing, and God knows, it is better than what we have now, but it can only exist when the capitalists are scared enough of Communism to grant it. Social Democracy hurts the bourgeoisie so they don't like it one little bit, but it does not destroy them either and they still have the financial power required to force it to collapse when they feel they no longer need put up with it.

[black magick hustla]

i never read lsd's post anyway too goddamn long

[careyprice31]

at least he wrote in paragraphs.

and I found his post very enjoyable to read.:)

Oh and I believe my friend said it was him who defended me when some people wanted to restrict me for my environmentalist views (which they see as detrimental to society for whatever reason)

so I will defend him for this.

[spartan]

I suppose people have enough of leftist politics and become more mainstream (Reformist and Social Democratic etc) because they feel that Anarchism/Communism doesnt attract enough people or has the support of the masses (At least in the country that they live in).

So former Communists turning to more mainstream politics such as Social Democracy, which attracts lots of support from the masses come election time, isnt that much of a surprise really when you think about it (Though it is sad when it happens:().

[RNK]

It's very common. A common anti-communist just is the older you get the less of a communist you are, that has some merit. A lot of communists start out as radicals in their youth, and by the time they've progressed for 5 or 10 or 15 or more years, they become extremely depressed, demoralized and disillusioned with their own lack of progress, and the overburdening stress of a society that's raised from birth to hate you and a system that's constantly trying to drill into your brain that change is possible through progressive politics.

I've had my days where I've felt like throwing in the towel, I've had my days where I felt the urge to just return to "normal life" where I didn't have to have the constant reminder that things are absolute shit and that all enjoyment I feel has the burden of coming at the expense of millions of people who're suffering. I've had my days where I've questioned the legitimacy of the "communist dream" and the wonderful utopian society of the enlightened future.

It's one thing to think these things (its inevitable). It's entirely another to embrace them.

[RedAnarchist]

It's very common. A common anti-communist just is the older you get the less of a communist you are, that has some merit. A lot of communists start out as radicals in their youth, and by the time they've progressed for 5 or 10 or 15 or more years, they become extremely depressed, demoralized and disillusioned with their own lack of progress, and the overburdening stress of a society that's raised from birth to hate you and a system that's constantly trying to drill into your brain that change is possible through progressive politics.

I've had my days where I've felt like throwing in the towel, I've had my days where I felt the urge to just return to "normal life" where I didn't have to have the constant reminder that things are absolute shit and that all enjoyment I feel has the burden of coming at the expense of millions of people who're suffering. I've had my days where I've questioned the legitimacy of the "communist dream" and the wonderful utopian society of the enlightened future.

It's one thing to think these things (its inevitable). It's entirely another to embrace them.

I couldn't agree more. Its perfectly human and we shouldn't see revolutionary leftism as some sort of religion which we have to believe in every minute of every day. In fact, I think its good for us to sometimes get depressed about things or to feel like giving up, because it keeps you in reality.

[Bud Struggle]

It's very common. A common anti-communist just is the older you get the less of a communist you are, that has some merit. A lot of communists start out as radicals in their youth, and by the time they've progressed for 5 or 10 or 15 or more years, they become extremely depressed, demoralized and disillusioned with their own lack of progress, and the overburdening stress of a society that's raised from birth to hate you and a system that's constantly trying to drill into your brain that change is possible through progressive politics.

I've had my days where I've felt like throwing in the towel, I've had my days where I felt the urge to just return to "normal life" where I didn't have to have the constant reminder that things are absolute shit and that all enjoyment I feel has the burden of coming at the expense of millions of people who're suffering. I've had my days where I've questioned the legitimacy of the "communist dream" and the wonderful utopian society of the enlightened future.

It's one thing to think these things (its inevitable). It's entirely another to embrace them.

"When a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something."--Dimitri Shostakovich :hammersickle:

[The Feral Underclass]

This thread should be closed.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

It's very common. A common anti-communist just is the older you get the less of a communist you are, that has some merit. A lot of communists start out as radicals in their youth, and by the time they've progressed for 5 or 10 or 15 or more years, they become extremely depressed, demoralized and disillusioned with their own lack of progress, and the overburdening stress of a society that's raised from birth to hate you and a system that's constantly trying to drill into your brain that change is possible through progressive politics.

I've had my days where I've felt like throwing in the towel, I've had my days where I felt the urge to just return to "normal life" where I didn't have to have the constant reminder that things are absolute shit and that all enjoyment I feel has the burden of coming at the expense of millions of people who're suffering. I've had my days where I've questioned the legitimacy of the "communist dream" and the wonderful utopian society of the enlightened future.

It's one thing to think these things (its inevitable). It's entirely another to embrace them.
I completely agree. I also think it helps to keep a long term perspective on things. The revolution won't happen tomorrow, it won't happen in 10 years, and it probably won't happen in 20 or 30 years either unless some dramatic event occurs.

If you expect the revolution any time soon, you are just setting yourself up for disappointment. We are in this for the long haul. As I noted before, 69 years passed between the publication of the Manifesto and the Bolshevik Revolution.

[Lector Malibu]

So now that I'm an evil capitalist

Are you on drugs? Is this some sorta manic induced delusion?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

This thread should be closed.

Why?

[Joby]

But you and Friedman basically want the same things now, whether you like it or not: more capitalism to solve its own massive shortcomings whilst the bourgeoisie win, win, win. I'm guessing your not one of the people who will have to endure the harsh end of this policy?

Just because he doesn't think Capitalism will be overthrown in an instant and we'll all jump off into the unknown, doesn't make him a Chicago-School type.

Nobody has to endure the harsh end of Capitalism.

[Zurdito]

Just because he doesn't think Capitalism will be overthrown in an instant

who thinks that?

do you ever make a worthwhile contribution?

[Joby]

who thinks that?

do you ever make a worthwhile contribution?

When I read about vanguard parties that have done nothing.

[MT5678]

If this is the start of a new trend, then I think that history is repeating itself.

The First International was all about revolution.

And then the second one was headed by reformist fools such as Vandervelde.

[last_angry_man]

I also think it helps to keep a long term perspective on things. The revolution won't happen tomorrow, it won't happen in 10 years, and it probably won't happen in 20 or 30 years either unless some dramatic event occurs.

While I agree with the 1st sentence, I'm not so sure about the rest. I believe that any major shifts will be the result of some dramatic event, not a long slow march toward progress. And no one can predict the arrival of these sorts of dramatic events. Hell, the coming recession could very well turn into a world-wide depression, and then we'll all be looking at a very different situation ripe with opportunity.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

So now that I'm an evil capitalist, I guees I should get together with my reactionary buddies and talk. I really don't know if I'm going to keep posting on this board, but the sadist in me really can't resist. There's just something too deliciously ironic in deconstructing what you helped to build.

But don't get me wrong, it's not like capitalism doesn't have many serious problems. I haven't transmogrophied into Milton Friedman. I've just opened my eyes to the world around me.

So come on! Let's have some soft-left discusssion!

I realy don't know, though, what the general political position of this forum is, however, so I don't know how constructive it could be but I'm game for it ! :)
What do you mean deconstruct what you helped to build? Are you going to deconstruct the board?

[RHIZOMES]

LSD, even if I don't agree with you, you certainly have balls to speak out even when it means going from admin to restricted. :P

[Knight of Cydonia]

This thread should be closed.
no...this thread should be thrashed!

[Xiao Banfa]

When I read about vanguard parties that have done nothing.


You just made me spit up my wine.

What are you talking about?

[NWO]

All the Communists/Socialists that I used to know ended up joining the RNE or other nationalist organizations. I do not even know anyone left from the old days that holds the same ideology.

[RedAnarchist]

All the Communists/Socialists that I used to know ended up joining the RNE or other nationalist organizations. I do not even know anyone left from the old days that holds the same ideology.

Thats because they probably didn't know too much about Communism and probably never really "believed" in it in the first place.

[pusher robot]

Of all the taboos that you have freed yourself of, LSD, the one you should avail yourself of the opportunity to reject is the one of profound pessimism and negativism about the world we live in.

How it must crush the spirit, to live every day fervently believing that everything is getting worse, that everyone is in chains, that humanity, as it apparently rejects your ideological salvation, is doomed to the damnation of wretched subjugation and slavery.

I say free yourself of these conceits. Reject them! Breathe the air, cleaner now than it has been, and view the scenery, greener now than it has been! Talk to people, more generous than they have been, and embrace technology, more amazing now than it has ever been! Exercise your freedoms, greater now than they have been, and live well, without remorse and without guilt.

[RedStarOverChina]

Of all the taboos that you have freed yourself of, LSD, the one you should avail yourself of the opportunity to reject is the one of profound pessimism and negativism about the world we live in.

How it must crush the spirit, to live every day fervently believing that everything is getting worse, that everyone is in chains, that humanity, as it apparently rejects your ideological salvation, is doomed to the damnation of wretched subjugation and slavery.

I say free yourself of these conceits. Reject them! Breathe the air, cleaner now than it has been, and view the scenery, greener now than it has been! Talk to people, more generous than they have been, and embrace technology, more amazing now than it has ever been! Exercise your freedoms, greater now than they have been, and live well, without remorse and without guilt.
What kind of a creep says things like that?

Like you, he has already rejected the idea that humans can free themselves from servitude under the rule of capital, so enough with the melodrama.

Now one can only hope that he succeeds under capitalism---Though that doesn't seem likely.

[Lector Malibu]

Of all the taboos that you have freed yourself of, LSD, the one you should avail yourself of the opportunity to reject is the one of profound pessimism and negativism about the world we live in.

Have you ever ventured out of the safety on your element? Have you ever been on your own in the real world?


How it must crush the spirit, to live every day fervently believing that everything is getting worse, that everyone is in chains, that humanity, as it apparently rejects your ideological salvation, is doomed to the damnation of wretched subjugation and slavery.

I take it by this statement you have been spoon fed your entire life.


I say free yourself of these conceits. Reject them! Breathe the air, cleaner now than it has been, and view the scenery, greener now than it has been! Talk to people, more generous than they have been, and embrace technology, more amazing now than it has ever been! Exercise your freedoms, greater now than they have been, and live well, without remorse and without guilt.

And know that as we speak the system that you love and hold dear is oppressing and killing many world wide , domestically and abroad so you can sit on your ass and play PSP

[pusher robot]

Have you ever ventured out of the safety on your element? Have you ever been on your own in the real world?



I take it by this statement you have been spoon fed your entire life.



And know that as we speak the system that you love and hold dear is oppressing and killing many world wide , domestically and abroad so you can sit on your ass and play PSP

Oh yes, how could I forget: stop assuming the worst about other people. It's quite remarkable how that simple thing can improve one's quality of life!

[Dimentio]

Well, I cannot see in what way LSD;s opinions about the emancipating effects of technology and the positions held by movements such like N.E.T (http://www.technocracynet.eu) would differ so much?

[Bud Struggle]

Of all the taboos that you have freed yourself of, LSD, the one you should avail yourself of the opportunity to reject is the one of profound pessimism and negativism about the world we live in.

How it must crush the spirit, to live every day fervently believing that everything is getting worse, that everyone is in chains, that humanity, as it apparently rejects your ideological salvation, is doomed to the damnation of wretched subjugation and slavery.

I think PR that you made a wonderful statement here. It's not in movements and ideologies and economic systems that the world is changed. It is through each and every human heart that say, NO to oppression, and greed and despair.

Without hope men become bio-machines waiting to die.

[luxemburg89]

While I doubt that you are really as reactionary as you lead on (the taboo has probably encouraged you to say some of what you've said) I am still annoyed, and surprised to see you restricted. I don't see your ideas as fundamentally changed all that much, but now you're unwanted, that's sad.

As for the general political position here... it's schizophrenic :rolleyes:

Lol, true.

LSD - I've been away for a long time and I wouldn't have restricted you, as Dean says you don't seem to have changed you stance that much. Most people on the main forum could get restricted in one way or another for some petty thing and I reckon that simply because you didn't blindly accept your ideology people who do blindly accept it have gone a bit trigger happy. It is always good to doubt and question beliefs - hopefully then you can justify them to yourself. Leftist ideologies need to be kept under relative scrutiny and to be criticised so that they do not end up like Stalinism, Maoism or any other murderous ideology that causes the death of millions of people.

[RGacky3]

Lol, true.

LSD - I've been away for a long time and I wouldn't have restricted you, as Dean says you don't seem to have changed you stance that much. Most people on the main forum could get restricted in one way or another for some petty thing and I reckon that simply because you didn't blindly accept your ideology people who do blindly accept it have gone a bit trigger happy. It is always good to doubt and question beliefs - hopefully then you can justify them to yourself. Leftist ideologies need to be kept under relative scrutiny and to be criticised so that they do not end up like Stalinism, Maoism or any other murderous ideology that causes the death of millions of people.

I'll second that, its people like that, people who can't take criticism, can't take other ideas, that end up alienating the left.

[Bud Struggle]

Leftist ideologies need to be kept under relative scrutiny and to be criticised so that they do not end up like Stalinism, Maoism or any other murderous ideology that causes the death of millions of people.

That's certainly the truth.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Leftist ideologies need to be kept under relative scrutiny and to be criticised so that they do not end up like Stalinism, Maoism or any other murderous ideology that causes the death of millions of people.


Absolutely. Any ideology that seeks to fundamentally alter society needs to be scrutinised to the end of the world and back, because it's bloody dangerous.

But LSD is not just scrutinising; he is now directly opposed to a leftist revolution, and expresses his relief that we're an irrelevant minority, which is a bit silly since there are several entire nations that are actively pushing toward socialism, and have nominally socialist government, but hey ho.

-Alex

[RNK]

Criticism, and self-criticism, is essential. We must always analyze every aspect of any society, to find its faults and to rectify them. It just so happens that capitalism has quite a lot of faulty aspects which to the vast majority of people are quite detrimental. And it just so happens that the only realistic course of action to rectify these problems -- which is not merely our "theory" but a reality based in the historical fact that over the past 150 years since its inception, capitalism has proven time and time again that it is incapable of moving beyond these basic faults -- is a revolutionary replacement of that system.

[Lenin II]

It really does not surprise me in the least that LSD went over to the side of the cappies. He was an anarchist, which is a petite-bourgeoisie ideology, and then he cavorted with Trots and revisionists.
This just goes to show that revisionism and counter-revolutionary sentiments inevitably lead back to capitalism. I could hear his hatred of the revolution every time he talked about socialism "not working."

At the same time, I am very sorry to see another good comrade lost, even if he did not agree with my hardline stance. Hopefully, once he travels to the lands raped by capitalism he will rediscover his former passion.

[Redmau5]

It really does not surprise me in the least that LSD went over to the side of the cappies. He was an anarchist, which is a petite-bourgeoisie ideology, and then he cavorted with Trots and revisionists.
This just goes to show that revisionism and counter-revolutionary sentiments inevitably lead back to capitalism. I could hear his hatred of the revolution every time he talked about socialism "not working."

At the same time, I am very sorry to see another good comrade lost, even if he did not agree with my hardline stance. Hopefully, once he travels to the lands raped by capitalism he will rediscover his former passion.

Wow calm down there cowboy. A bit of a contradiction are we? First LSD is a petite-bourgeois anarchist, and then he is a good comrade?

There are plenty of anarchists on this board, the majority of whom have not and probably will not 'go over to the side of the cappies'. I wish I could have the same confidence for all the kiddies in the Hoaxist Union. ;)

[anti-authoritarian]

LSD I'm going to really miss you :(

I don't know what's happened but you shouldn't get disheartened. Remember complying with the system doesn't change the system. Come back... we miss you :crying:

[careyprice31]

RNK:


"Criticism, and self-criticism, is essential. We must always analyze every aspect of any society, to find its faults and to rectify them. It just so happens that capitalism has quite a lot of faulty aspects which to the vast majority of people are quite detrimental. And it just so happens that the only realistic course of action to rectify these problems -- which is not merely our "theory" but a reality based in the historical fact that over the past 150 years since its inception, capitalism has proven time and time again that it is incapable of moving beyond these basic faults -- is a revolutionary replacement of that system."

Ditto. Exactly. A very good post. Couldnt agree more.

[Black Dagger]

It really does not surprise me in the least that LSD went over to the side of the cappies. He was an anarchist, which is a petite-bourgeoisie ideology, and then he cavorted with Trots and revisionists.
This just goes to show that revisionism and counter-revolutionary sentiments inevitably lead back to capitalism. I could hear his hatred of the revolution every time he talked about socialism "not working."

How is anarchism, an anti-capitalist, pro-working class revolutionary perspective, 'petit-bourgeois'?

P.S. It's 'petit', not 'petite' you sectarian asshat.

[Dejavu]

"Criticism, and self-criticism, is essential. We must always analyze every aspect of any society, to find its faults and to rectify them. It just so happens that capitalism has quite a lot of faulty aspects which to the vast majority of people are quite detrimental. And it just so happens that the only realistic course of action to rectify these problems -- which is not merely our "theory" but a reality based in the historical fact that over the past 150 years since its inception, capitalism has proven time and time again that it is incapable of moving beyond these basic faults -- is a revolutionary replacement of that system."I'm sure your computer, internet access , the software and networking developed to sustain the RevLeft site is pretty detrimental to you. :laugh:
I'm sure the fact that there is modern vaccine and medicine to prolong life and the fact that the population of the world has grown tremendously is pretty detrimental to you.

[RNK]

I think your post rebukes itself enough that I don't need to. :)

[AGITprop]

It really does not surprise me in the least that LSD went over to the side of the cappies. He was an anarchist, which is a petite-bourgeoisie ideology, and then he cavorted with Trots and revisionists.
This just goes to show that revisionism and counter-revolutionary sentiments inevitably lead back to capitalism. I could hear his hatred of the revolution every time he talked about socialism "not working."

At the same time, I am very sorry to see another good comrade lost, even if he did not agree with my hardline stance. Hopefully, once he travels to the lands raped by capitalism he will rediscover his former passion.

lol cavorted with trots.
my friend dont speak because you have no knowledge of the situation. maybe if he had 'cavorted' with those trots a bit longer he wouldnt have left the left.
the fact is that LSD has no activist experience. he has not been involved in the left more than this website provides. dont blame this on 'counter revolutionary' trotskyists who you have never met.

[RHIZOMES]

lol cavorted with trots.
my friend dont speak because you have no knowledge of the situation. maybe if he had 'cavorted' with those trots a bit longer he wouldnt have left the left.
the fact is that LSD has no activist experience. he has not been involved in the left more than this website provides. dont blame this on 'counter revolutionary' trotskyists who you have never met.

Well I've seen Trots shift to the right more than any other Marxist tendency combined... ;)

[Black Dagger]

Blah blah blah - if you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion beyond sectarian jibes or otherwise irrelevant anti-'trot' crap, then please stay out of this thread.

[RHIZOMES]

Blah blah blah - if you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion beyond sectarian jibes or otherwise irrelevant anti-'trot' crap, then please stay out of this thread.

The funny thing is the reason I actually dislike most Trotskyists is for how sectarian they are. The particular party I am in welcomes people of all tendencies, and it has quite a number of Trotskyists. However, These non-sectarian Trotskyists are very rare. There are 4 Marxist political parties in my country, 3 are Trotskyist.

Anyway I'll refrain from anti-Trot "sectarianism" in this thread from now on, don't wanna derail the thread too much. Just thought I'd address that particular "sectarian" accusation.

[RNK]

That's nice Red Ghost. I've faced plenty of bitter malice from Trotskyists, and I've repeatedly lashed out in kind, but it doesn't make it right. By mimicking idiocy you are, infact, an idiot too.

And by far the most common left-wing "tendency" towards shifting right is reformists, not Trots, I don't know where you get that from.

[RHIZOMES]

That's nice Red Ghost. I've faced plenty of bitter malice from Trotskyists, and I've repeatedly lashed out in kind, but it doesn't make it right. By mimicking idiocy you are, infact, an idiot too.

Very good point - I'll refrain in the future. I'm sort of fighting fire with fire.


And by far the most common left-wing "tendency" towards shifting right is reformists, not Trots,

I don't even consider reformists to be Marxists to begin with :P


I don't know where you get that from.

Christopher Hitchens and Max Shactman sprang to mind when I stated that.

[MarxSchmarx]

How do you deal with the fact that social democracy and the "soft left" has been in decline for the past quarter century? You seem to talk as if the revolutionary left is ineffective while reformism is booming, which is far from the truth. Reformism is dying. In some places it's already dead. The revolutionary left isn't exactly sweeping the world, but at least it is stable. We haven't had any major triumphs or defeats in quite some time.I disagree.

Social democracy has, significantly, come back swinging in Latin America in large part thanks to rambunctious reformists like Hugo Chavez. This trend is here to stay.

Don't get me wrong, I think "capitalism with a human face" is ultimately an unworkable sham and hardly a desirable goal. And yes, right now it is an open question whether this "soft leftist" wave can make a material difference in peoples lives, much less spread to the global North or other third world countries.

But the sorry fact of the matter is our comrades in the "hard left" in Latin America had a strong opening in places like Argentina and Bolivia, and utterly failed to seize the moment. I have to give credit where credit is due, and the social democrats in Latin America put us to shame.

[Led Zeppelin]

Christopher Hitchens and Max Shactman sprang to mind when I stated that.

Holy shit, a whopping two examples! :rolleyes:

Irony is a sectarian accusing others of being sectarian.

[Lenin II]

Wow calm down there cowboy. A bit of a contradiction are we? First LSD is a petite-bourgeois anarchist, and then he is a good comrade?
That’s dialectics for you. :)


There are plenty of anarchists on this board, the majority of whom have not and probably will not 'go over to the side of the cappies'.
Time will tell.

I wish I could have the same confidence for all the kiddies in the Hoaxist Union.
I fail to see how supporting the dictatorship of the proletariat and opposing revisionism will lead back to capitalism.

How is anarchism, an anti-capitalist, pro-working class revolutionary perspective, 'petit-bourgeois'?Since anarchists want to dismantle proletarian power/the dictatorship of the proletariat they are against the seizing of power by the working class and thus have the same goal as the bourgeoisie. As Engels said: The anarchists put the thing upside down. They declare that the proletarian revolution must begin by doing away with the political organization of the state....But to destroy it at such a moment would be to destroy the only organism by means of which the victorious proletariat can assert its newly-conquered power, hold down its capitalist adversaries, and carry out that economic revolution of society without which the whole victory must end in a new defeat and a mass slaughter of the workers similar to those after the Paris commune.
Never forget Lenin’s words on freedom. When they speak of freedom, as "for whom?", "to do what?"
P.S. It's 'petit', not 'petite' you sectarian asshat.
Who cares about typos? You know what I mean.

lol cavorted with trots. my friend dont speak because you have no knowledge of the situation. maybe if he had 'cavorted' with those trots a bit longer he wouldnt have left the left.
Marxist-Leninists, not Trotskyites, supported and defended the former socialist Soviet Union. Leon Trotsky and the Trotskyites went to the lengths of asserting that the practice of building socialism in the former Soviet Union would serve the interests of the international bourgeoisie and not the working class. Marxist-Leninists, unlike Trotskyites, do not swim in the sewer of crude bourgeoisie anti-Sovietism and absolute condemnation of the former socialist Soviet Union. The history of Trotskyism has been the history of the petty-bourgeois Trotskyite slandering Stalin in every way, shape and form possible. As an ideology Trotskyism is revisionism; it is the perversion of Marxism-Leninism to suit the needs of the exploiters as well as Leon Trotsky.
"What a swine this Trotsky is -- Left phrases and a bloc with the Right . . ! He ought to be exposed".
(V.I. Lenin: Letter to Alexandra Kollontai, February 17th., 1917, in: "Collected Works", Volume 35; Moscow; 1966; p. 285).
the fact is that LSD has no activist experience. he has not been involved in the left more than this website provides. dont blame this on 'counter revolutionary' trotskyists who you have never met.
The fact that he went to a few meetings and then gave it up shows that he was a utopian adventurist anyway. He expected an organized and armed body of the working class with mass support already, probably influenced by TV. What he got was the reality of underground movements—even the Bolsheviks had their first meetings in a barn or somebody’s mother’s basement.

The funny thing is the reason I actually dislike most Trotskyists is for how sectarian they are.
Spartacist League, anyone?

[hajduk]

So now that I'm an evil capitalist, I guees I should get together with my reactionary buddies and talk. I really don't know if I'm going to keep posting on this board, but the sadist in me really can't resist. There's just something too deliciously ironic in deconstructing what you helped to build.

But don't get me wrong, it's not like capitalism doesn't have many serious problems. I haven't transmogrophied into Milton Friedman. I've just opened my eyes to the world around me.

So come on! Let's have some soft-left discusssion!

I realy don't know, though, what the general political position of this forum is, however, so I don't know how constructive it could be but I'm game for it ! :)that is not good LSD i feel sorry becouse i am restricted becouse i cant speak with other comraders about many good issues on this forum and becouse i cant feel the world culture and oppinions of people from all over the world,for me is so interesting when some comraders make joke about some other comrader oppinion or when i hear some oppinion about some issue from the first hand for example when some comrader say that Obama was in his school or something about economic,when i was unrestricted and when i exchange the oppinions of other comraders i feel so proud becouse i discuse with someone from U.S. or Asia or Europe or hey with someone from Middle East about something important for revolution,there is no price for that LSD,i know that you angry know but trust me that is not solution,SOLUTION IS REVOLUTION

[RHIZOMES]

Holy shit, a whopping two examples! :rolleyes:

You got me there. I made a generalization.


Irony is a sectarian accusing others of being sectarian.

Nope. I have no problem working with Trotskyists, the problem is most of them have a problem working with me. As I said, there are Trotskyists in my particular party. I have never seen a tendency that is as devoted to saying other tendencies are wrong and they are right. I met with a WSWS/SEP guy a while back (When I was more sympathetic towards Trotskyism and less sympathetic towards Maoism),and he said he'd send me some literature. All of the literature he sent me was about how every other tendency was Stalinist, how (x socialist leader) is wrong, etc. I have no problem with Leon Trotsky himself, he had quite a few good ideas. It's just most of his followers are annoying as hell.

[RNK]

Most e-trots, anyway.

[Redmau5]

That’s dialectics for you. :)

No, that's not knowing your ass from your elbow.


I fail to see how supporting the dictatorship of the proletariat and opposing revisionism will lead back to capitalism.

But you don't support the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. You support dictators. This time, instead of picking the all too obvious Stalin, you've went for a more obscure Albanian dictator.

And why is everyone who disagrees with you a revisionist, exactly? It's just another one of these tankie buzzwords to throw at people who don't believe that the USSR was a shining beacon to all humanity.


Marxist-Leninists, not Trotskyites, supported and defended the former socialist Soviet Union

You clearly haven't read The Revolution Betrayed.


"What a swine this Trotsky is -- Left phrases and a bloc with the Right . . ! He ought to be exposed".
(V.I. Lenin: Letter to Alexandra Kollontai, February 17th., 1917, in: "Collected Works", Volume 35; Moscow; 1966; p. 285).

I love how you quote Lenin saying this, and then soon after Trotsky joined the Bolsheviks. Not only did he join the Bolsheviks, but he, along with Lenin, successfully oversaw the October Revolution. :crying:


Spartacist League, anyone?

If you think Trots are sectarian, you clearly haven't seen the amount of British tankie communist parties.


Most e-trots, anyway.

I'd love to see your source for this assertion, a source which I am of no doubt you can provide with great ease.

[careyprice31]

Most e-trots, anyway.

I like e -trots. :(

I have never met an E - Trot who was like the sort just described. I found them nice.

[RNK]

You've only been on the board a month. Give it time. :)

Lots of E-Trots are the archetype "HOLY SHIT TROTSKY WAS FUCKING AMAZING, HE PRACTICALLY ALMOST SINGLE-HANDEDLY CARRIED OUT THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION ALONE, LENIN JUST HELPED HIM A LITTLE BIT, AND OH YEAH EVERYTHING LENIN BELIEVED WAS TROTSKY'S IDEA FIRST, AND YEAH TROTSKY IS LIKE THE REINCARNATION OF LENIN".

A bit of an exhaggeration, but you'll get the point.

[careyprice31]

You've only been on the board a month. Give it time. :)

Lots of E-Trots are the archetype "HOLY SHIT TROTSKY WAS FUCKING AMAZING, HE PRACTICALLY ALMOST SINGLE-HANDEDLY CARRIED OUT THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION ALONE, LENIN JUST HELPED HIM A LITTLE BIT, AND OH YEAH EVERYTHING LENIN BELIEVED WAS TROTSKY'S IDEA FIRST, AND YEAH TROTSKY IS LIKE THE REINCARNATION OF LENIN".

A bit of an exhaggeration, but you'll get the point.

I wasnt just talking about this board. Ive met them from other boards too. But i havent met any who acted the way described previously.

[RHIZOMES]

yeah I'm basing my assumptions on Trotskyists I've met in real life, not the internet. ;)

[RNK]

The bad ones must congregate here, then. :D

I'm half-joking. I have encountered quite a few Trotskyists who acted vilely towards me simply on the basis of me adhering to Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. Names that come to mind are Rosa Leichtenstein, Gunther Glick, and a few others.

Most of the Trotskyists I've met in real life, though, have been great guys. A friend of mine, who "introduced" me to communist theory, was a Trotskyist of the British SP variety. I've hung out with CyM and his Trot IMT variety gang. I met a Trotskyists in Toronto who was interested in working with the RCP-PCR.

The only "foul" experience I've had was at an anti-war rally where a couple of Trotskyists representing something or someone or another decided to bother us with their anal retentiveness. But then other Trots who knew them said they were losers. :D

Overall, I feel more commonality with Trotskyists than any other "strand" (besides MLM, of course) and I enjoy a lot of Trotsky's theories. But the maliciousness of some of them gets to me, sometimes.

[Die Neue Zeit]

You've only been on the board a month. Give it time. :)

Lots of E-Trots are the archetype "HOLY SHIT TROTSKY WAS FUCKING AMAZING, HE PRACTICALLY ALMOST SINGLE-HANDEDLY CARRIED OUT THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION ALONE, LENIN JUST HELPED HIM A LITTLE BIT, AND OH YEAH EVERYTHING LENIN BELIEVED WAS TROTSKY'S IDEA FIRST, AND YEAH TROTSKY IS LIKE THE REINCARNATION OF LENIN".

A bit of an exhaggeration, but you'll get the point.

Ironically, this is similar to the BS propagated in the ghostwritten History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks): Short Course. :p

[Die Neue Zeit]

You've only been on the board a month. Give it time. :)

Lots of E-Trots are the archetype "HOLY SHIT TROTSKY WAS FUCKING AMAZING, HE PRACTICALLY ALMOST SINGLE-HANDEDLY CARRIED OUT THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION ALONE, LENIN JUST HELPED HIM A LITTLE BIT, AND OH YEAH EVERYTHING LENIN BELIEVED WAS TROTSKY'S IDEA FIRST, AND YEAH TROTSKY IS LIKE THE REINCARNATION OF LENIN".

A bit of an exhaggeration, but you'll get the point.

Ironically, this is similar to the BS propagated in the ghostwritten History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks): Short Course. :p

BTW, why no commonalities with the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist)? :confused:

[Lenin II]

No, that's not knowing your ass from your elbow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectics

But you don't support the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. You support dictators. This time, instead of picking the all too obvious Stalin, you've went for a more obscure Albanian dictator.
Yes, it is nice to know that Trots cry crocodile tears over every single bourgeoisie and kulak exterminated in Stalin’s camps. It's nice to know we can always count on Trots to stand up for the "rights" of the bourgeoisie. I think we all know whose side you are on now.

And why is everyone who disagrees with you a revisionist, exactly? It's just another one of these tankie buzzwords to throw at people who don't believe that the USSR was a shining beacon to all humanity.
No, it’s a legitimate term used to describe anyone who is anti-Marxist and does everything in their power to sabotage the socialist movement, such as yourself.

You clearly haven't read The Revolution Betrayed.
You clearly haven’t read Great Expectations! Oh, I’m sorry. I thought we were arbitrarily pointing out fiction books the other hadn’t read for fun.

I love how you quote Lenin saying this, and then soon after Trotsky joined the Bolsheviks. Not only did he join the Bolsheviks, but he, along with Lenin, successfully oversaw the October Revolution.
What the fuck was the point in any of what you just said? That has nothing to do with the Lenin quote. He just called his holiness Trotsky a “swine!” And in response you give me a history lesson? Side-stepping the argument, are we? I suppose next you'll bring up Lenin's "will."

[Black Dagger]

This thread is shit (from the topic post onwards) and going down hill fast (to where who knows? What's below shit? I dunno, but it ain't good).

If yall wanna whinge about this or that marxist sects etc. feel free to do so somewhere else (preferably on another site).

Closed.