Whats with this?

[Sir Galahad]

FoR everyone, I was wondering, if socailism is the best econimic philosophy, howcome democracy survived?

[Lardlad95]

what the hell is wrong with you. What gave you the impression that Socialist can't be democratic? I'm a democratic Socialist, as in I want to bring about socialism through democracy. A socialist mayor was elected in Milwaukee Democraticly, Socialist leaders were elected in France Democraticly.
Get your facts straight man.

Also there is no true socialist country now or ever. Soviet UNion and CUba are communist and sweden isn't in my opinion truly socialist.

[Sir Galahad]

Expalin the difference between socailism and Communism.

[Sasafrás]

Please, go read a book.

Thanks!

[Sir Galahad]

LR: Please recomend a book, thanks

[Sasafrás]

Hell, to see the difference between soc. & comm., you could look at any high school Marketing textbook, but that would be biased information, seeing that it is "marketing."

Let's see...

I'd say that encyclopedias would be a good source for information like that. Or maybe someone else here feels like making an explanation, but I truly doubt that.

You're welcome.. :)

[Sir Galahad]

Thank You LR.
I shall Look it up.

[Sasafrás]

Sir_Galahad, got some inquiries..

1) Where are you from?
2) How old are you?
3) What exactly is your political stance?

Gracias..

[Forever capitalism]

That is immaterial. The topic question remains and it has not been answered. I figured communists wouldn't answer this question directly or merely avoid this topic altogether.

[Sir Galahad]

I am From America (duh)
I am a High School student (need I say more)
My political stance is still forming but, I am discontent with the fact that although my country does protect peoples around the world, we only do that when it is profitable to us, so I guess you could say I am a moldable person.
But I am an American Patriot and I love my country

But, could someone explain to me why communism fell and capitalism didnt?

(Edited by Sir Galahad at 2:36 am on Mar. 20, 2002)

[Sasafrás]

You know what? You can swallow a knife...

Lardlad95 gave a proper response. It corresponded with the question that was asked by Sir_Galahad.

That's for Forever Capitalism..

(Edited by La Rainbeaux at 8:37 pm on Mar. 19, 2002)

[Forever capitalism]

Why tell me to swallow a knife. Gee your debating skills have really manifested themselves with insults and abuse. Malte i think you shoudl consider banning these people from ALL forums. People who do not debate but merely abuse. This harms debate the most.

[Sasafrás]

It's not my objective to debate, sweetie, thank you very much. I was trying to get some information from Sir_Galahad and he seems to be a pretty nice guy.
And, you are nothing to Malte, I'm sure. Believe me, you are incapable of influencing his decisions.

[Forever capitalism]

So does that mean that because i am one man my opinion has the right to be suppressed? Hmm similar to communism. I am making a suggestion without abuse or insults. I am entitled to that mate.

[Sir Galahad]

How about we do this people?
We all get along, i know this is niave, but we are all adults here, (with the exception of myself) and we can post opinions and answer questions in an orderly fashion and lets be mature, and not get offended at an off-hand remark, Ok? Good
Now, why did communism fail? as a whole that is.

[Sasafrás]

Now, to more important things,

I'm in the same age range as you, Sir_Galahad (I'm not an adult) and I know what you're going through with your political thoughts & ideas.

To be perfectly honest with you, I can't really explain why communism failed and capitalism did not. But, communism (or at least something close to it :) ) does still exist in Cuba. There are people who are more well-versed in that sort of thing than I am, I'm new to the game. Sorry! :(

Well, that's precious, Forever capitalism. Because you are one man? You know that in our society (that of the United States of America), opinions are supressed on a daily basis, whether they are the opinions of the leftist, the ethnic minority, the poor, or anyone else who may feel that the system is not just. Supression of differing/opposing opinions is a characteristic of the American system.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 2:34 am on Mar. 20, 2002
That is immaterial. The topic question remains and it has not been answered. I figured communists wouldn't answer this question directly or merely avoid this topic altogether.


the reason the question was not answered was because its an invalid question on three grounds.

1. he said why did socialism fail and democrAcy survive.

Democracy is a type of system that decides how laws get passed, officials get elected, and how laws are changed. There fore democracy can exist in several types of governments/economic systems including Socialism, Communism, or Capitalism

2. There is no such thing as a true democracy in the world. Must "Democratic Countries" are republics

3. He was confused as to the difference between communism and socialism, therefore making him oblivious to the fact that socialism has never failed. Communism has failed(not to insult an communist)

People seem to forget that there are differnt types of Socialism and COmmunism, not all are the same

Also people must take into account that Communism is not Socialism but an extreme branch from it. Communist are socialist but a socialist isn't a communist.

[Nateddi]

Sir Galahad:

The temptation of global capital and free market is incredibly hard to resist.

I suggest you read chapters entitled "The Free Market Paradise Goes East" in the book "Blackshirts and Reds" by Michael Parenti.

Capitalism only survives because of unregulated economy, which allows the corporations to control every aspect of life. Capitalism isn't just an economic ideology, it is a way of life. Our schools are funded by capitalist soda corporations, our media are owned by the worlds biggest corporations, even the debate commision before elections is a private corporation. Capitalism is very sly, it can subdue children to make it fashinable to wear a sweater with nothing but an ad on our chest (GAP), capitalism makes it un-cool for children to go to summer camp with store-brand toothpaste instead of Crest or Colgate.
I very highly doubt that true communism can be formed in one country when a larger one, or a group of countries in a free-trade pact are breathing down your necks making you adobt a market economy. Look what happened when Gorbochev announced Glasnost; capitalist newspapers sprung up, endorced by america, showing the good way of life of capitalism. Unfortunately, it only applied to an elite few. Look where russia and the republics are now, during free-market reforms. Back in the third world where they came from. I was born in Ukraine, a satilite of the USSR, originally it was their "breadbasket", now it is using sweatshop labor similar to southeast asia for capitalist corporations. I am no USSR sympathizer, I am just pointing out the damages that capitalist ideology does to the vast majority of nations.

(Edited by Nateddi at 3:32 am on Mar. 20, 2002)

[Sasafrás]

Bless you, Nate & Aaron! Thank you muchly!

[Sir Galahad]

Well thank you, But where do you get your ideas? About such things?

[Sir Galahad]

Pervious post was before i read Nate and lard, I suppose i understand, but where might i pick up such a book?

[Nateddi]

Reading.

Go read a book. Or read a newspaper critically. Just because corporate media does not portray or glorify anti-corporate movements does not mean that they don't exist.

Look into borders under "Political Science", or go to amazon.com. You will find a vast array of books by leftist authors.

(Edited by Nateddi at 3:36 am on Mar. 20, 2002)

[Sasafrás]

Sir_Galahad, I sincerely apologize if I offended you or if you thought I was trying to get a negative attitude with you. I respect you much more than many others who post in here, if you know who I mean..

:) Peace & Love

[Nateddi]

Yea, La_Rainbeaux is actually pretty nice if you lurk forums and read posts.

[Sasafrás]

Aww! Thanks Nate! What exactly makes you say that though? I look at myself as a member here who really doesn't give the other members any sort of impression of herself.

(Edited by La Rainbeaux at 9:50 pm on Mar. 19, 2002)

[Nateddi]

I dont know, most on this board (including you) don't seem arrogant or rude most of the time.

[TITOMAn]

Also there is no true socialist country now or ever. Soviet UNion and CUba are communist and sweden isn't in my opinion truly socialist.


USSR and Cuba are communist countries? Are you kidding? You must be.

If we say that socilalism is step to communism and there were no socialism, we can also say that there is no communism (was or is).

Communism can be only achieved throught democracy and socialism.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

In capitalism every children knows what count. Money and nothing else. Who has money can do anything he wants. Big capitalists control your life....

Have you watched matrix? There are machines, which control humans and their thoughts. Capitalism can be also called "The machine".

We must destroy this machine before it destroys us.

[munkey soup]

sir galahad: Read "When Corporations Rule the World" by David C. Korten.

[Forever capitalism]

Straying off the topic a bit i like your signature monkey soup.

[MJM]

The USR and China were building communism rather than having achived it.
So communism didn't fail, they failed to realise it.

[Fires of History]

Quote: from MJM on 7:59 am on Mar. 20, 2002
The USR and China were building communism rather than having achived it.
So communism didn't fail, they failed to realise it.



MJM,

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep...

Yep,
Trance

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from TITOMAn on 4:52 am on Mar. 20, 2002

Also there is no true socialist country now or ever. Soviet UNion and CUba are communist and sweden isn't in my opinion truly socialist.


USSR and Cuba are communist countries? Are you kidding? You must be.

If we say that socilalism is step to communism and there were no socialism, we can also say that there is no communism (was or is).

Communism can be only achieved throught democracy and socialism.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

In capitalism every children knows what count. Money and nothing else. Who has money can do anything he wants. Big capitalists control your life....

Have you watched matrix? There are machines, which control humans and their thoughts. Capitalism can be also called "The machine".

We must destroy this machine before it destroys us.




I'm not a communist, i'm a socialist, I don't consider communism socialism. I consider communist a seperate sect. Thats my belief, I don't believe communism can work, i believe socialsim can work though. You see socialism and communism may have been the same originally but modern socialsim and communism are different

[Lardlad95]

Titoman, I agree, we must destroy capitalsim

hehehehe. I just remembered that simpsons episode where Russia reveals that the Soviet Union never really broke up, the represntatives pushes a button and soviet tanks start rolling out and
Lenin bursts out of his glass coffin and walks around like a zombie saying,"Grrr Grr must crush capitalism"

[Sasafrás]

Well, communism is also called scientific socialism, right? Isn't that what Marx originally referred to it as?

[Nateddi]

To say communism cant work, while marxist socialism can is wrong. For communism to work, Marx said there needs to be a period of capitalism and socialism. If socialism can work, than it can go onto communism.

[Lardlad95]

Communism will ultimatley fail in my opinion. For the government to own ever means of production isn't w rokable solution. The government only needs to own industries. People should be allowed to own small buisness. The problem is that as governments get to far to the right or left they become totalitarian and facist. Capitalism is to far to the right and Commnism is to far to the left. Socialism is right in between.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 2:45 am on Mar. 20, 2002
So does that mean that because i am one man my opinion has the right to be suppressed? Hmm similar to communism.


Wrong way round sonny. Capitalism is the system that devalues the power of the invidual. It gives all the power to the majority, and renders the minority useless and oppressed. Really fucking fair...

Galahad - who's to say capitalism succeeded?? I, for one, believe it failed just as much as communism, the only difference being, the middle-class majority do not realise its faults, the upper-class minority win through it, and the lower class minority usually fall...

[Lardlad95]

Nice analysis of Capitalism. People only think its suceeding. It is really hurting people but poloticians trick the down trodden. I mean only a capitalist could make the trickle down economy seem like a good thing. What it means is that what ever falls on the floor from the huge truckloads that the rich get the poor can pick up

[Sir Galahad]

I think, so far, that the fairest form of government is actually communism, but, man is far too corrupt to run such a system fairly. Look at the USSR, although they were communist, it was a poor nation, and the people were poor, but the corrupt government lived a life of ease and luxury. In China, poverty is everywhere but the leaders are awfully comfortable.
Its a scientificaly proven fact that communism, TRUE communism, cannot run in a population of aver 100,000 people. After that, corruption is impossible to curb and someone will get around and have an awfully big pocket.
True communism is FAR better than capitalism, but only God could run Communism.
So, prove me wrong, (that isnt calling for a fight), but capitalism is the best system of government for large population of people.

LR, I was never angry or anything like that.

[Lardlad95]

saying it is fairest is an unjust statement, fairness is a matter of opinion. However it is a system in which everyone is equal. If communism could work I would happily be equal with everyone, but it can't work so I'm a socialist, a system that can work, in my opinion.

[RedRevolutionary87]

communism can work if it can be broken down into very small semiindepentand sections aka communes. and the government owns everything but all government people are elected and none are apointed and can be removed through election at any time also there can not be a standing army, only a citizen militia that way the people and only the people have power.

[Forever capitalism]

communism can't work and never has as history attests to its failures!!!!! Surely you can see that.

[RedRevolutionary87]

surly you can see that according to my definition communism never has existed. next time you post try and back your statement up with other things.

[Forever capitalism]

You wonder why it hasn't existed, because in practice it doesn't work and it failed. Lenin, Castro, Mao, all these revolutionaries attempted to set up a communist regime yet in EVERY SINGLE CASE it failed. You cannot deny that Lenin, Castro and Mao are communists or they didn't try to set up a communist regime. The fact that communism doesn't exist in these countries and never existed demonstrates it doesn't work. Prove me wrong with evidence

[RedRevolutionary87]

first of communist regime is an oximoron, regime would require a dictator. secondly the "communist" leaders you mentioned were only after one thing and that is power, with the exeption of fidel and maybe mao. ive spoken to many chinese people who have or curently do reside in the country and they say that the current system they have at the momment is one of the best governments the chinese people have ever had. and in cubas case, communism failed in cuba because of constand blows and poundings by the u ass a through embargos and propaganda, the cuban economy was crippled beond repair. answer me this- has there ever been a communist country whos development was not interfered with by western and or bourgoisie nations?

communism was never given a chance to succed and you know it!

[Forever capitalism]

Mao was one of the greatest despots ever who was responsible for the deaths of up to 60 million chinese. Notice how he only relinquished power after he died. Fidel on the other hand has been in power 42 years, regardless of what the people think or say about him they adhere to his oppressive system that is one party and doesn't allow freedom of speech.
Sorry i meant socialist regime and in that there does require a dictator hence "dictatorship of the proletarian" however the only dictator in each historical example was the revolutionairy who was corrupted by power and served as a tyrant of the nation.
The blockcade in Cuba is hardly the reason for their failure to achieve progress in 42 years. It only stops them from trading with America. That is one country out of approximately 256 world wide that they are permitted and do trade with. Examples are Canada and Mexico.
Western nations intervene in order to preserve liberty and freedom before it is terminated by socialist regimes by dictators such as Castro and Lenin. Wanting to preserve such democracy is a noble thing done by America and in many cases have saved the people from poverty and oppression.

[RedRevolutionary87]

i dont think they were corrupted by power, instead they were corrupt to begin with. and about your statement on preserving freedom, tell me how you can justify the slaughter of the paris commune, tell me how you could"predict" that communism would fail in russia even tho it has never been tryed, yet every western nation allied together and invaded russia after the october revolution.

[Moskitto]

What about non stalinist forms of communism which have never been tried or came close to being tried in the real world such as Council Communism.

[sabre]

okay here FC this is what you can do

read Capital by marx

then analyze the systems of said "communist" countries

and realize how they have hardly any similarities

[Forever capitalism]

You are blatantly contradicting yourselves. Why do you think that communism never existed? Because it doesn't work. It was undeniably tried and failed in all cases. Every single one. People have gone so far to refute this fact by claiming Lenin, Castro and even Mao were not communists to start off with. HA that is laughable

[MJM]

FC you don't seriously believe Cuba has made no progress do you?
Health and education are much better since the revolution.

[Forever capitalism]

Yes health and education is a success in Castro's cuba however the economy has been stagnant for 42 years. People ration food not to make it equal for everybody but because they don't have enough to go around. People line up for hours to buy break it is ridiculous. If a child's bicycle tyre pops then because they can't attain another one they have to put stickytape to cover the hole. That is how poor they are.

[sabre]

"Yes health and education is a success in Castro's cuba however the economy has been stagnant for 42 years. People ration food not to make it equal for everybody but because they don't have enough to go around. People line up for hours to buy break it is ridiculous. If a child's bicycle tyre pops then because they can't attain another one they have to put stickytape to cover the hole. That is how poor they are. "

why are they so poor? becuase of the U.S. and other prosperous nation's embargo. A country can't survive without international trade!!!

[MJM]

Well I imagine people would rather have a flat bike tyre than a serious disease and no ability to read and write, but hey thats just me.
You did say they had made no progress before, now you admit they have which is it?

Or is there a good progress;
ie. individual wealth.

And a bad progress;
ie. the lower class getting ahead for a change?

(Edited by MJM at 5:19 pm on Mar. 23, 2002)

[Forever capitalism]

Sabre the blockade on Cuba only stops them from trading with the U.S. That isn't denying them "international trade" unless you as many Americans think the U.S. is the world!
How successful is Cuba's economy and that of the richest present day communist regime to that of the richest capitalist nation. Think about it. Cuba is extremely poor as their economy relies 40% upon tourism. They have not industrialied in 42 years depsite the best and most ridiculous attempts by Castro. They suffer from high absunteeism amongst their works, prostitution amongst their women and they indoctrinate children with their Communist Youth that is symbolic of the Hitler Youth.

[kingbee]

sir galahad- capitalism has only worked because it has struggled to keep itself on the planet- banning of communist parties throughout the world, chile, guatemala, vietnam, korea, africa, U$ intervention anywhere between 1917 and 1991.

" they indoctrinate children with their Communist Youth that is symbolic of the Hitler Youth"- enlighten me- how?

compare cuba to other 3rd world capitalist countries- better health, education,production, more independence- whats wrong with that? however much you slag off cuba, you must realise that other 3rd world countries have much wrong, and guess what? they are all offsprings of capitalism!

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 5:56 am on Mar. 23, 2002
Sabre the blockade on Cuba only stops them from trading with the U.S. That isn't denying them "international trade" unless you as many Americans think the U.S. is the world!
How successful is Cuba's economy and that of the richest present day communist regime to that of the richest capitalist nation. Think about it. Cuba is extremely poor as their economy relies 40% upon tourism. They have not industrialied in 42 years depsite the best and most ridiculous attempts by Castro. They suffer from high absunteeism amongst their works, prostitution amongst their women and they indoctrinate children with their Communist Youth that is symbolic of the Hitler Youth.



do you think that the US isn't preventing other countries from trading with CUba? PLease the US is as manipulative as they come. You just know they are trying to get other countries to blockade them as well just because your perfect ass US can't even kill a seventy year old man

[Rommel]

Why that capatilism worked and communism not, here's why: there will be always people that work hard for their money and those people get rich and there are lazybones that don't do a shit and they are poor and then they expect the rich will make sure they are all right, thats what a communism policy wants. But that will be never right so long their are still rich smart people with power that will make sure that that policy never will work ...

[sabre]

the people need to realize that in a communist state the amount that everyone puts into society is the amount they get back, there fore if you work hard you get more

[poncho]

"Sabre the blockade on Cuba only stops them from trading with the U.S."

The U.S will not allow a ship/plane etc to enter if it has been in Cuba or is proven to be headed into the island.So this creates a increased cost and travel time for almost any country to ship goods to Cuba, hence why often shortages.In effect they've slowed the amount of goods that are going to the island. If a poor country needs aid the U.S.A. has threatned to with hold aid unless they adopt a negative stance or at least reduce trade with Cuba.

Many large Canadian company's are scarred to invest in Cuba due to Helms Burton. The Four Season's had a letter of intent to build a large resort, lawyers decided against it because it would open the company up to lawsuits and possible barring of executives/investors from doing business in the United States.

Most kids are more worried about there Playstations having chips to play burnt games over bike tires!

To be serious bike tires are fairly easy to get and they are not that expensive....Most gas stations have tubes hanging on the wall. I've been asked to bring things to Cuba, but never bike parts!!!! I did however send a kids BMX bike down for my friends daughter for Christmas last year, so far no tire requests....

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Rommel on 8:02 pm on Mar. 25, 2002
Why that capatilism worked and communism not, here's why: there will be always people that work hard for their money and those people get rich and there are lazybones that don't do a shit and they are poor and then they expect the rich will make sure they are all right, thats what a communism policy wants. But that will be never right so long their are still rich smart people with power that will make sure that that policy never will work ...


do you actualy believe your own bullshit? Face the fucking facts. Few people who are rich worked hard. The only work they do is to manipulate others. Do yo think Bill Gates sat at home figuring out ways to compete with his competators? No he figured out how to monopolize the market

[Sir Galahad]

Hello

Its been awhile since my last visit and i have read nearly all of the posts since my last post. I am not going to bother quoting but I will bring out points that people have raised, so to those people, you may not get credit but I'll try:
1, Someone stated that capitalism has only worked because it has struggled, SO? isnt that what a revolution is? A struggle against a greater power, or the power in place? For COmmunism to work it has to struggle. Capitalism and most capitalists would love to have TRUE communism with fair rewards and such. I a say fair rewards because a hard worker should get more than a lazy worker etc.
2. Forever Capitalism, No offense and its great your here defending capitalism but, when asked for info, give it, you only look like a jackass repeating what you said, back it up.
3. Communist Youth: Every country should train there youth in the nation and make them strong patriots and believe in their system of government, I wish America had one. American Youth would be great, Maybe, things like 9/11 and other activities would be harder of we were more united. We could handle things a lot better and we wouldn't have weenies complaining about political correctness, hey I doubt Cuba or China worry abour Political Correctness, that is because they train their youth to take it and realize that there comrade is like them equal to them and will die like them for the "Revolution". So, I dont think there is anything wrong with a Communist Youth, although I dont quite agree with commmunism, it sounds like responsible thing for a government to do.
4. US enbargo on Cuba: the only country that has an embargo on Cuba is the US and the US is thinking about dropping it. Us Citizens technically are not allowed to go to Cuba but NOBODY CARES, Go to the Dominican Republic and take a plane to Cuba, The US government wont care, and niether will your average joe on the street. And all Cuba needs is 90 billion in International aid and it'll do fine, Comminism does need a chance. I may be wrong, but I know people who have gone to Cuba and there aint no feds following them. If i am wrong give me info, I am here to learn.
5. Finally.. Human corruption will not allow for a true communist state. Only a computer or God can run it. Man is to corrupto for that power, Although communism did work on some hippie communes in the US, they were all potheads, so they never thought of stealing.

IF I SAID ANYTHING THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE OR IS JUST PLAIN DUMB, BRING IT TO MY ATTENTION SO I CAN EXPLAIN MYSELF, I AM NOT THE MOST ARTICULATE MAN IN THE WORLD, DONT USE MY BAD WORDING AGAINST ME UNLESS I MEANT IT, I AM HERE TO LEARN SO DONT ATTACK ME ANYWAY, THANK YOU.

[Xvall]

I will give you that. Unlike most of the other capitalists on this board who will simply say we are living in a 'fairyland' You seem to be quite itnerested in acrrying on a reasonable debate. I thank you for that. Therefore, I will ask the others on this board to kindly refrain from attacking you personally. You seem to be one of the only pro-capitalist person on this board that I will be willing to discuss things with. Thanks..

- Drake Dracoli

[Guest]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 11:16 pm on Mar. 26, 2002

do you actualy believe your own bullshit? Face the fucking facts. Few people who are rich worked hard. The only work they do is to manipulate others. Do yo think Bill Gates sat at home figuring out ways to compete with his competators? No he figured out how to monopolize the market


Actually, to start with that's exactly what he did... created a product and sold it aggressivly. And his creation of a monopoly was (IMHO) mostly accidental. Where his flaw lay is with trying to stop competition. Only in a competitive environment can something grow and change.

[Anarcho]

Sorry, the above post is me.

[Fabi]

this thread is pretty old, i know..

anarcho, there have been studies comparing cooperation with competition and the results showed that cooperation didnt only happen to cause less conflict, but even to be more effective...

i do not remember my source and of course you may question the results....
wouldn't you think that cooperation between software developers would create much better products than dog-eat-dog competition? as a matter of fact, linux, in my eyes, would be a great example of that.

linux is a great operation system and would prove, i think, to be better than winDoze, but not the best product wins, but the company with the money for marketing and the people who already control the market.

[Sir Galahad]

I'm back, as I may have said earlier, I am a student just trying to learn. The reason I havent been responding is because I got a job, and, I have to admit, it feels good to have money in your pocket. I was wondering, and don't get angry and think i am trying to be difficult, but what rewards does communism have for hard work?

[Child of Revolution]

Okay mr G.
Une of the reasons Communism 'fell' [which it didn't because why the hell am i sitting here supporting leftism?] is this:
The Soviet Union was pressured by the US, who had most countries support. Because the 'States had the nuclear first, they were able to produce more and better weapons.
many people will tell you that stalin employed spies. This is true, but is not the whole truth. The president of that time [truman/roosevelt/kennedy?] ALSO sent spies to the Soviet Union.
thank you for your time,

Child of the Revolution
"Ours is the only country..."
Iosef Stalin