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Guest
10th March 2002, 21:59
Communism was a good idea..... but it will never work until a perfect being is created.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely!

Communism gives the greatest power to an individual or a group of individuals. It can never work until a perfect being is formed.

libereco
10th March 2002, 22:10
yes i agree with the statement that power corrupts.

but you don't seriously think that that is an argument for capitalism do you? What do YOU believe in?

Rosa
11th March 2002, 00:21
pERFECT BEING can be raised. Till that, let's try to be better, so that perfect being rise under light of the Sun one day.

peaccenicked
11th March 2002, 00:32
If you have everything what can you be corrupted
by. We demand the earth to share and to hell
with your corruption.

reagan lives
11th March 2002, 03:29
A perfect being would understand economics, so even when he shows up, we'll still be capitalist.

Rosa
11th March 2002, 12:12
you obviously don'tknow the definition of "economy",IT'S NOT "MAKING MORE GOODS", BUT IS "PROVIDING NECESSARY GOODS FOR MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY". +if we agree about definition after all: Capitalists and socialists obviously don't have thae same definition of "society", and "members of society"

Moskitto
11th March 2002, 18:40
Useless Trivia:

Did you know that the only democracies have been mixed economies apart from WW2 Britain which was a planned economy, There has never been a democratic market economy.

honest intellectual
11th March 2002, 19:04
Quote: from Guest on 10:59 pm on Mar. 10, 2002
Communism was a good idea..... but it will never work until a perfect being is created.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely!

Communism gives the greatest power to an individual or a group of individuals. It can never work until a perfect being is formed.


Communism is based on the dictatorship of the proletariat. A lot of cappies (lik our guest) see the conflict as COMMUNISM vs DEMOCRACY. Communism is the only democratic system ever thought up. Capitalism is what puts power in the hands of the few

READ UP CAPPIES

(Edited by honest intellectual at 8:06 pm on Mar. 11, 2002)

reagan lives
11th March 2002, 19:17
Moskitto:

Do you think that's an argument for socialism?

libereco
11th March 2002, 19:27
Quote: from reagan lives on 8:17 pm on Mar. 11, 2002
Moskitto:

Do you think that's an argument for socialism?

reagan lives:

Do you think the very first argument in this topic was an argument for capitalism?

He made an anti-authorian argument, hooray.
Once again showing off his ignorance by setting capitalism equal to freedom and socialism equal to slavery.

if his argument is valid, then moskittos is as well.

STALINSOLDIERS
11th March 2002, 21:10
dam capitalist you make me sick all the time.......all you cappis do is waste and waste you make this world worse and the people worse .how well lets just say once you make a car 2001 car you want to make it better so some one would buy it so when you do that you trow away the old car and get the new one and how to you get the products by abusing the earth for your pleasure.....and for the people you give them greasy food with tons of sygar...what does that do well lets say it misses up your teeth causes cancer and sickness......what you do its exploit the poor for your produciotn how its you make them work for 2 cents then you but the products for cheap and sell them high in the usa....dam bastards capitalist well die soon as said in the communist monifesto your digging your own grave.....

Moskitto
11th March 2002, 21:26
Quote: from reagan lives on 8:17 pm on Mar. 11, 2002
Moskitto:

Do you think that's an argument for socialism?


No, it shows the misconception that more deregulated economy=more democracy.

Of course, socialism does not give all power to an individual as that is not equality. It is a gross inequality. Socialism is about sharing power, maybe it won't work but to make statements as to what socialism is when it isn't shows a great lack of understanding of socialism.

reagan lives
11th March 2002, 22:50
Hey, I'm not agreeing with the opening post here...I certainly didn't write it.

Moskitto
11th March 2002, 23:21
I would have to say that that doesn't look like the sort of thing you would write.

Marxman
12th March 2002, 00:03
If we would hve had the UTOPIAN COMMUNISM, we would have already built colonies on MARS, All for the people, all for the humanity.
In communism, people are raised much differently than in capitalism. CAPPIES don't understand the qualities OF THE RED

FtWfTn
13th March 2002, 14:12
I'd easily have to side w/ marxman on this one. . .when people think communist country they think people will all live on the streets and nobody will wanna work and just collect money. . .never would any one leader let that happen. .oh wait America did. . .but anyways. . .Children (this is my oppion) would be raised alot differently. . they would be taught the proper way to work. . .be well educated. . .know what labor is . . .but still have the time to spend w/ their friends and family. . .theres gotta be more to life then work and money. . theres gotta be

anarchoveganLAM
13th March 2002, 20:56
OK first off, response to Honest Intellectual, his definition of communism was: "Communism is based on the dictatorship of the proletariat". Do not get your fucked up Leninist ideas mixed with communism. Communism is a theory of community based on people's needs, not how big of a profit you can make off of them, where there is no private property-and goods are shared.
In a bolshivek system, there is still exploitation. In a communist society, there is no classes. Bolshevism calls for the domination of one class over another. We have that here with capitalism!
The reason communism hasn't worked is because there has been appointed leaders. I aggree that power equals corruption, but you can not put down a whole political theory for people's mistakes. Even if there is no classes and still an appointed leader (ie. Stalin, Castro, etc.) it was still capitalism. The civilians work went towards the buerocrats, and there was seperation between the two (dictator and civilians). No matter what- capitalism or bullshitism (bolshevism), there is power, exploitation, and corruption. Lenin wanted revenge.
The truest communists I have ever met were anarchists. We believe in equal distribution, equal rights, mutual aid, and a production based on people's needs-not SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
Only the anarcho-capitalists will tell you different.

PunkRawker677
13th March 2002, 21:35
Quote: from FtWfTn on 3:12 pm on Mar. 13, 2002
Children (this is my oppion) would be raised alot differently. . they would be taught the proper way to work. . .be well educated. . .


you should definitly get your hands on someone of Albert Enstiens essays, in regards to how much better education would be in a socialist economy..

come on cappies.. you cant say Albery Enstien was a moron, can you? he WAS the smartest man ever, supposedly.

Moskitto
13th March 2002, 21:43
Here's Einstein's FBI File http://foia.fbi.gov/einstein.htm

And here's his essay published in Monthly Review, New York, May 1949

Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.

Let us first consider the question from the point of view of scientific knowledge. It might appear that there are no essential methodological differences between astronomy and economics: scientists in both fields attempt to discover laws of general acceptability for a circumscribed group of phenomena in order to make the interconnection of these phenomena as clearly understandable as possible. But in reality such methodological differences do exist. The discovery of general laws in the field of economics is made difficult by the circumstance that observed economic phenomena are often affected by many factors which are very hard to evaluate separately. In addition, the experience which has accumulated since the beginning of the so-called civilized period of human history has -- as is well known -- been largely influenced and limited by causes which are by no means exclusively economic in nature. For example, most of the major states of history owed their existence to conquest. The conquering peoples established themselves, legally and economically, as the privileged class of the conquered country. They seized for themselves a monopoly of the land ownership and appointed a priesthood from among their own ranks. The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior.

But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called "the predatory phase" of human development. The observable economic facts belong to that phase and even such laws as we can derive from them are not applicable to other phases. Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future.

Second, socialism is directed toward a social-ethical end. Science, however, cannot create ends and, even less, instill them in human beings; science, at most, can supply the means by which to attain certain ends. But the ends themselves are conceived by personalities with lofty ethical ideals and -- if these ends are not stillborn, but vital and vigorous -- are adopted and carried forward by those many human beings who, half-unconsciously, determine the slow evolution of society.

For these reasons, we should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society. Innumerable voices have been asserting for some time now that human society is passing through a crisis, that its stability has been gravely shattered. It is characteristic of such a situation that individuals feel indifferent or even hostile toward the group, small or large, to which they belong. In order to illustrate my meaning, let me record here a personal experience. I recently discussed with an intelligent and well-disposed man the threat of another war, which in my opinion would seriously endanger the existence of mankind, and I remarked that only a supranational organization would offer protection from that danger. Thereupon my visitor, very calmly and coolly, said to me: "Why are you so deeply opposed to the disappearance of the human race?"

I am sure that as little as a century ago no one would have so lightly made a statement of this kind. It is the statement of a man who has striven in vain to attain an equilibrium within himself and has more or less lost hope of succeeding. It is the expression of a painful solitude and isolation from which so many people are suffering in these days. What is the cause? Is there a way out?

It is easy to raise such questions, but difficult to answer them with any degree of assurance. I must try, however, as best I can, although I am very conscious of the fact that our feelings and strivings are often contradictory and obscure and that they cannot be expressed in easy and simple formulas.

Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept "society" means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society--in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence--that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is "society" which provides man with food, home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of many millions past and present who are all hidden behind small word "society."

It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished -- just as in the case of ants and bees. However, while the whole life process of ants and bees is fixed down to the smallest detail by rigid, hereditary instincts, the social pattern and interrelationships of human beings are very variable susceptible to change. Memory, the capacity to make combinations, the gift of oral communication have made possible developments among human beings which are dictated by biological necessities. Such developments manifest themselves in traditions, institutions, and organizations; in literature; in scientific and engineering accomplishments; in works of art. This explains how it happens that, in a certain sense, man can influence his life and that in this process conscious thinking and wanting can play a part.

Man acquires at birth, through heredity, a biological constitution which we must consider fixed and unalterable, including the natural urges which are characteristic of the human species. In addition, during his lifetime, he acquires a cultural constitution which he adopts from society through communication and through many other types of influences. It is this cultural constitution which, with the passage of time, is subject to change and which determines to a very large extent the relationship between the individual and society Modern anthropology has taught us, through comparative investigation of so-called primitive cultures, that the social behavior of human beings may differ greatly, depending upon prevailing cultural patterns and the types of organization which predominate in society. It is on this that those who are striving to improve the lot of man may ground their hopes: human beings are not condemned, because of their biological constitution, to annihilate each other or to be at the mercy of a cruel, self-inflicted fate.

If we ask ourselves how the structure of society and the cultural attitude of man should be changed in order to make human life as satisfying as possible, we should constantly be conscious of the fact that there are certain conditions which we are unable to modify. As mentioned before, the biological nature of man is, for all practical purposes, not subject to change. Furthermore, technological and demographic developments of the last few centuries have created conditions which are here to stay. In relatively densely settled populations with the goods which are indispensable to their continued existence, an extreme division of labor and a highly productive apparatus are absolutely necessary. The time -- which, looking back, seems so idyllic -- is gone forever when individuals or relatively small groups could be completely self-sufficient. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that mankind constitutes even now a planetary community of production and consumption.

I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor -- not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production -- that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods -- may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.

For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call "workers" all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production -- although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. In so far as the labor contract is "free," what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists' requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.

Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of the smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.

The situation prevailing in an economy based on the private ownership of capital is thus characterized main principles: first, means of production (capital) are privately owned and the owners dispose of them as they see fit; second, the labor contract is free. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure capitalist society in this sense. In particular, it should be noted that the workers, through long and bitter political struggles, have succeeded in securing a somewhat improved form of the "free labor contract" for certain categories of workers. But taken as a whole, the present-day economy does not differ much from "pure" capitalism. Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an "army of unemployed" almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers' goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that a planned economy is not yet socialism. A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?