How to describe Socialism to middle school kids

[Lefty]

My history project (CHE) cals for an explanation of socialism. How do i describe socialism without the kids that dont know any better thinking socialism=communism=bad and che= castro=communist=bad? how do i describe this to my peers that dont know any better?

[reagan lives]

Glad you asked.

Socialism is an economic system based on the writings of a Hegelian philosopher (Marx) who didn't know the first thing about economics. Despite his lack of training in economics, he imagined an economic solution to the social problems that he observed around him. Socialism is founded on the basis that everyone should be happy and nobody should be sad...so a lot of sad people (who also had no idea about economics) thought it sounded like a good idea. Foremost among those who thought that happiness sounded like a swell idea were Russian peasants, who then added their names to the list of people who have beaten the mortal shit out the Russian army. For most of the rest of the 20th century, the Soviet Union demonstrated what was wrong with socialism, while capitalism fixed the problems that Marx saw within the framework of actual economics (minimum wage laws, labor unions, politically empowered middle class, etc). However, the idea that people should be happy instead of sad still sounds good to some people (who still haven't studied economics), so they spend their time excusing the debacle that was the Soviet Union, throwing bricks through Starbucks windows in Seattle, and *****ing about America on Internet message boards. The End.

[Imperial Power]

Amen!

[Placebo]

its stupid...but i can't help laughing, maybe its just cos someone has george bush as their picture, anyway i could do with a decent explanation of socialism, so anybody but them two wanna make an imput?

[Xvall]

Maybe they'll be like me,
And pick up a revolutionary goal when they're young WITHOUT help!

- Drake Dracoli

[guerrillaradio]

I'm sorry, call me close-minded, but I just can't take someone who has George W Bush as their avatar and calls themself Imperial Power seriously.

[Supermodel]

You guys crack me up!!

The question is...do you admire Che because he was a communist or for other reasons?

[Xvall]

I admire Che not merely because he was a communist or socialist, but because he realized there was a problem with society, and decided not to be a simple conformist and allow himself to be abused and exploited. I admire him as much as I do Martain Luther King, and Rosa Parks.

- Drake Dracoli

[sabre]

WEll maybe start out talking about how this country is based on the fact that all men are equal, but this really isnt true in our society, but that is what a socialist one is baseed around both politically and economically. it concentrates on the individual

also be prepared to answer the stupid questions such as "but communism failed in the past" and "it goes against human nature"

[Lefty]

thank you sabre, will do. And reaganlives, i asked for a non biased description, not a capatalist one. ANd get a better avatar. Please. And reagen does live, but he is now so stricken with senility and alzheimers he has trouble remembering his name.

[guerrillaradio]

Thank you Lefty, I've been trying to make the Reagan point for ages now. I did a talk on Che to my history class, but I avoided describing his politics in detail because it would have gone over their heads. Merely mention he was a Marxist-Leninist (presumably they've done 20th century Russia).

Supermodel - the principle reason I admire Che was because he fought 100% for what he believed in, something which is so rare in politics. Also, he was among the first to truly recognise what it is wrong with modern America.

[reagan lives]

I think you kids should be careful not to treat your classmates with too much contempt. One of the problems that the leftist movements have is that they start from the assumption that they are much smarter than everyone else. Needless to say, this impairs their ability to get popular support (since they treat the populous like morons). I have some bad news for you kids: you're not that much smarter than your classmates. You might not believe me now, but you will someday. Giving the other kids some respect is the first step to convincing them of your point, and it happens to be the step that most leftists skip.

Of course, once you start from the assumption that all people are capable of making good informed decisions, you inevitably end up at capitalist democracy. Ah well.

[Michael De Panama]

Capitalism isn't democracy you twit. That's like saying that anarchy is democracy. The majority never rules in a capitalist system, just the few people with the most money. They make the decisions. They impose their will on the public. They are the ones who own the media. They are the ones who run the so-called "free elections". They are the ones in charge of our lives.

Democracy is a system of equality, and would only work in a socialist economy, not a capitalist system of inequality.

Though I do agree that you should not treat your classmates like they are inferior. No one is inferior. They are simply ignorant. And ignorance is not something to be ashamed of if you are aware of your ignorance. Of course, the capitalist was the first person to think about treating others like they are inferior. So let's just let him argue with himself.

[reagan lives]

"They are the ones in charge of our lives."
And yet, here we are.

"Democracy is a system of equality, and would only work in a socialist economy, not a capitalist system of inequality."
History would seem to suggest otherwise, my friend.

"No one is inferior. They are simply ignorant."
This is what I'm talking about.

"Of course, the capitalist was the first person to think about treating others like they are inferior."
Capitalism is based on the idea that everyone knows what's good for themselves and can make good decisions. It is a system based on the idea that all people are equal as people. Socialism is based on the idea that all people are equal as economic production-consumption units.

[Michael De Panama]

An Indonesian mother works in a Nike sweatshop for 12 hours a day at $.17 an hour and is starving. Her only other option is to work in another sweatshop that gives less money and has worse working conditions. What would be the "good decision" this woman should do?

Might I make a point to add that this woman is not employed by a communist, but by a capitalist corporation.

Capitalism is based on the idea that some people are economic production units, while others are economic consumption units.

This is the concept of inferiority that I'm talking about

EDIT: I just wanted to point out how odd I find it that everything a capitalist hates about communism is everything I hate about capitalism. This is usually bases on the ignorance that the capitalist has towards communism.

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 7:44 pm on Mar. 12, 2002)

[Thine Stalin]

To me? Socialism is a wimpy form of communism for idealists who are almost as delusional as utopian anarchists, but thats just me, I am pro-stalinist, and noone likes Stalin except for the realists who notice that a communist/socialist system does not succeed without a stalinist Leader

[Moskitto]

Stalin sucked. But that's just my opinion, If you like Stalin that's fine and at least you've explained why you like him.

[libereco]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 9:02 pm on Mar. 12, 2002
To me? Socialism is a wimpy form of communism for idealists who are almost as delusional as utopian anarchists, but thats just me, I am pro-stalinist, and noone likes Stalin except for the realists who notice that a communist/socialist system does not succeed without a stalinist Leader


Go follow your führer. Don't expect me to.

[sabre]

yuck - stalin

[Michael De Panama]

I'll go back on my "no one's inferior" statement for just this once: Thine Stalin, get the fuck out of this board you jackass. No communist/socialist society can EXIST in a system where there is an authority (Stalin), or a class division (In this case, it is a class division between the government and the people, rather than the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, although it's all just the same thing).

Stalin killed millions of his own people, lied to his own people, and destroyed the theory of communism for many common people out there. I hate Stalin more than I hate any man who has ever lived in the whole history of existance. And do you know what? Stalin probably would have killed you if he had the chance to.

NOTE TO CAPITALISTS: Any Stalinist fuckhead on this board does not have any representation for the rest of the socialists/communists. Please ignore what this person says, and take into account that we probably both agree that they are idiots. Thanks.


(Edited by Michael De Panama at 7:48 am on Mar. 13, 2002)

[Fidelista]

Castro -
"Capitalist elections are an auction for the highest bidder in order to buy propagand and votes"

[I Will Deny You]

Stalin didn't lead the USSR on a path to success. He killed millions of people (I guess we'll never know how many of them were communists). He sent my grandfather's family fleeing for their lives, even though they were communists.

And Reagan, I'm not sure that a healthy dose of The O'Reily Factor leads to good, informed decisions. But I would like to take the time to commend you on being incredibly on-contemptuous by assuming that Lefty was going to insult his classmates when he simply tried to explain a commonly misunderstood point of view.

Ah, you've got to love those capitalists for having faith in the people.

[guerrillaradio]

Erm...Regan's Deathbed (haha...cheap I know, but sorry I couldn't resist) - what the fuck do you know about skool?? Judging by your opinions and your neverending condesceding nature, I'd say your at least 10 yrs outta skool, so I'd stick to what you know about (counting your money I guess). Believe it or not, the majority of adolescents have sacrified their lives to the pursuit of this thing called fashion, and this status called 'cool'. Now, at present, debating politics falls into neither of those categories, in fact, if you wanna be either of those, you have to claim that politics is "bullshit" and "boring" and all politicians are "gay" (yes, homophobia is a compulsory trait if you wanna be popular). Therefore, those in a history class will not wanna be taught left-wing politics, as they don't and don't wanna understand.

Thine Stalin - fuck off. I'm sick of pseudo-fascists trying to attatch themselves to leftism. You're no more to the left than Regan's Last Rites and Imperial Moneycounter here.

[Moskitto]

Middle school kids fucking piss me off with their constant harrasment of me and my [capitalist] friend. Yeah like it's funny my friend potentially loosing 60% of his GCSE grade. That's why I punched him, His friend whacked me with his boot back because he's too weak to stand up for himself and has to get people to fight his battles.

I wish I had some totector boots, then I go "You want a kicking" and they go "Yeah like you could kick hard" then I put my foot infront of a car and they watch how it causes no pain and realise I have steel toecaps (not good on contact with kneecaps eg. LIMP FOR REST OF LIFE.)

[reagan lives]

"Judging by your opinions and your neverending condesceding nature, I'd say your at least 10 yrs outta skool, so I'd stick to what you know about (counting your money I guess)."
That's pretty funny. Let's just suffice it to say that you're wrong. But it's amusing.

"But I would like to take the time to commend you on being incredibly on-contemptuous by assuming that Lefty was going to insult his classmates when he simply tried to explain a commonly misunderstood point of view."
Ahem.
"I did a talk on Che to my history class, but I avoided describing his politics in detail because it would have gone over their heads."
"also be prepared to answer the stupid questions"
"how do i describe this to my peers that dont know any better?"

I guess it was just a general observation and warning.

And Moskitto...chill.

[Moskitto]

Yep, I'm angry.

But coming and seeing all you friendly people on Che-lives makes me see that there are some "non-ARGH KILL KILL KILL" People.

[Thine Stalin]

Call me stupid or whatever? I don't give a shit really.. to be honest I don't expect any intelligent answers from dellusional socialists. But who are you to call me a facist? I am certainly not facist, I just realise we would need a stalinist regieme to succeed in a communist/socialist revolution. Mao and Castro based most of their policies on Stalin's, As did Ho Chi Minh and Kim Jong, And stalin followed many of lenin's teachings, so are all these great communist leaders all leninists? No, because lenin never put his practices to work efficently. Stalin did, Stalin had more sucess, Stalinism is the future of communist nations. Maybe perhaps you would refrain from insults that do little more than show you are a outcast dellusional middle school kid, next time.

[Moskitto]

That's not good. I look a bit like that picture of Stalin. That means that when those stupid middle school kids ask me if i've got a moustace because I want to look like Hitler I could talk about Stalin who they undoubtedly have never heard of.

Middle school kids, Where's my stress ball, stress ball, help where, where, where.

The Solution, Walk the other way home round to the Train Station, I won't go near them if I go that way.

[Moskitto]

Not annother one, Only I would triple post wouldn't I. Yes laugh at me.

(Edited by Moskitto at 9:06 pm on Mar. 13, 2002)

[Moskitto]

Triple Post, Only by me isn't it.

(Edited by Moskitto at 9:08 pm on Mar. 13, 2002)

[Thine Stalin]

Heh, getting fired from jobs for looking much like Hitler, and then growing it out more and looking like Stalin, those were the days...

[Moskitto]

The differences are Stalin doesn't have a monobrow, I don't have a high forehead and have slightly bigger ears. But that is so blatantly my "I'm in a photo" expression and that's what my beard looks like.

[guerrillaradio]

Regan - you would make a very good capitalist politcian. You have an incredible talent of dodging valid points that you have no answer to. Well done, all you need now is a lying spin doctor, but I guess you do that for yourself.

And quoting the opposite side in a debate is no way of making an argument for yourself.

[Rosa]

socialism grows as an idea in times of rising autonoman-ethics rised , which was supported by many other philosophers, and was established in philosophy : "the man is not a means, but is a goal"(Immanuel Kant). The opposite solution has showed/exposed itself as a greatest crime in all human history: as a Holocaust. using people as "bags of energy to use in industry work".No food for them.Every week 80 kg weight jew loses 2-3 kg during working process. When no more energy for working: "nach birkenau!"("in gas chamber!" ). That was total denial of humanity of some humans.
Capitalism is not such extrem, but is "softer" way to treat people as industrial means.
Socialism as ideology is on the path of Kant's ethics: HUMAN BEING AS A GOAL.
hope that you'll find my tribute usefull.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 10:05 pm on Mar. 13, 2002
Regan - you would make a very good capitalist politcian. You have an incredible talent of dodging valid points that you have no answer to. Well done, all you need now is a lying spin doctor, but I guess you do that for yourself.


How true.

[peaccenicked]

socialism is quite easy to explain. We dont want to
redistribute the cake. We want the whole damned bakery.

[Michael De Panama]

Also very true, comrade.

[Lardlad95]

An easy way to epxplain it to middle school kids is to use a middle school kid to explain it to them. I am a middle school kid and every chance I get I denounce capitalism especially during US History. Some of the kids actualy listen when I trash capitalism and praise socialism. It is especially effective when you have a teacher who doesn't care if you denounce the United States

[reagan lives]

Indeed...once we have the middle schoolers, there'll be no stopping us! The 13-year-olds of suburban America will lead the fight to throw off the shackles of oppressive capitalism! HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE COMRADES!!

[PunkRawker677]

reagen - do u know how old the people were when they fought in the united states for independence.. many, if not most of them were 12 - 15..

[Thine Stalin]

Whats with all this pent up aggression?

[reagan lives]

"reagen - do u know how old the people were when they fought in the united states for independence.. many, if not most of them were 12 - 15.. "

You have a source on this, Punk Rocker? Because I have an inkling that it's not true. Sure, there were teenagers in the Revolutionary Army, but I don't think they amounted to "many" much less "most" of the military. But this is beside the point.

[Moskitto]

Annother thing is that at that time 12-15 wasn't quite as young as it is today. It's like in the film "Air Force One" where the girl says that in cavemen times she'd be having children of her own and the president goes "that's called progress." The same thing applies.

Remember Nelson was an Admiral by 27.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from reagan lives on 4:36 pm on Mar. 18, 2002
Indeed...once we have the middle schoolers, there'll be no stopping us! The 13-year-olds of suburban America will lead the fight to throw off the shackles of oppressive capitalism! HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE COMRADES!!


fuck suburban america. That is were the tools of capitalism are formed. We need to reach those in the public/urban schools, people that actualy can feel a class struggle unlike the rich capitalist drones of suburbia

And yes I know what subruban kids are like, I skateboard with a few, hopefully I can change their views which is what I'm trying to do so don't point out any hypocracy

[Michael De Panama]

Well, America is just basically one giant bourgeoisie. So, for the most part, it looks quite hopeless. However, I can brag that I have actually been able to convince a bourgeois American capitalist conservative that socialism the most ideal system, but he still argues that a revolution will never come. I don't know, I feel kind of proud of that.

[Forever capitalism]

i bet the majority of you live in America, drink coke, eat at mcdonalds. You basically prop up the system you want to see dead. It's hypocritical when you "communits" are sitting here on your Windows 98 computers, wearing nike shoes, drinking coke whilst stuffing down a mcdoanlds cheeseburger and cry "VIVA REVOLUTION" like the one in cuba that rations food as sees a dictator in power for 42 years.
That fact that you can discuss communism and capitalism in such forums is a credit to the liberty of expression and speech that capitalism contains. No one party system that restricts ones personal liberties.
The fact that you have access to communist books is because of capitalism. The most powerful nations in the world are capitalist. Not one communist that still exists today is economically or politically prosperous or even stable.
Yet you cry for the overthrow of a political system that you yourselfs prop up and support. Capitalism works. The Third World is by definition just that. Not capitalist or communist, so a failure of capitalism cannot be seen in the unindustrialed nations that are fighting perpetual civil wars.
Forever capitalism!!!!!!

[Rosa]

Drink coke, eat at mcdonalds, wearing nik shoes etc: WHO?
have the money for that rubbish, but DON'T WANT IT, okay?
The Third World is product of instrumental-mind of capitalists, and it has nothing to do with any ethics.

If you want to be powerful and opress others, do so.
But don't try to forbid me to consider you a scum.

[Moskitto]

i bet the majority of you live in America, drink coke, eat at mcdonalds.

Am I American? No, I'm English.
Do I drink coke? No, talk about a good way of dehydrating yourself.
Do I eat at McDonalds? No, I don't eat fast food except Kebabs which I don't buy from anywhere you've ever heard of.

[I Will Deny You]

What does living in America have to do with being a Leftist? I'll actually be employed by the government next year, but that's not because I'm too lazy to do something or because I'm a hypocrite. It's because I'm trying to change the American system.

And I don't drink Coke, eat at McDonald's or wear Nikes.

[Rosa]

I'll cross my fingers for that.
Stay smart & beautiful!
(my friends say that when giving support)

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 8:21 am on Mar. 19, 2002
i bet the majority of you live in America, drink coke, eat at mcdonalds. You basically prop up the system you want to see dead. It's hypocritical when you "communits" are sitting here on your Windows 98 computers, wearing nike shoes, drinking coke whilst stuffing down a mcdoanlds cheeseburger and cry "VIVA REVOLUTION" like the one in cuba that rations food as sees a dictator in power for 42 years.
That fact that you can discuss communism and capitalism in such forums is a credit to the liberty of expression and speech that capitalism contains. No one party system that restricts ones personal liberties.
The fact that you have access to communist books is because of capitalism. The most powerful nations in the world are capitalist. Not one communist that still exists today is economically or politically prosperous or even stable.
Yet you cry for the overthrow of a political system that you yourselfs prop up and support. Capitalism works. The Third World is by definition just that. Not capitalist or communist, so a failure of capitalism cannot be seen in the unindustrialed nations that are fighting perpetual civil wars.
Forever capitalism!!!!!!


come on thats just capitalist bull. Have you ever heard of Democratic Socialism? Trying to bring about Socialism through democracy? Living in my hme isn't being a hypocrite. Yes I live in a capitalist society but not by choice. Also your statement is bogus because in Socialism does allow people to own their own small buinesses , with the government owning major industries.

[Forever capitalism]

Quote: from Moskitto on 8:34 pm on Mar. 19, 2002

i bet the majority of you live in America, drink coke, eat at mcdonalds.

Am I American? No, I'm English.
Do I drink coke? No, talk about a good way of dehydrating yourself.
Do I eat at McDonalds? No, I don't eat fast food except Kebabs which I don't buy from anywhere you've ever heard of.


Moskitto i said the majority of you. Hence some exceptions. No need to state the obvious with your post.

[guerrillaradio]

More than a few exceptions by the look of it. Personally speaking, I live in the UK, which is almost as prosperous as the US, I hate McDonalds and Starbucks, but I do drink an obscene amount of Coke a day (this is something I cannot help, I have a caffeine dependence). But, what is the point of boycotting all the capitalist institutions while we are under a capitalist system (which will almost definitely be for the rest of my life)??? What can be gained by not buying Nike and McDonalds??? There are much more productive ways of protesting and changing the system than wearing a different brand of shoes. While you're in the system, you have to live as best as you can in it.

[deadpool 52]

Boycotting can really hurt any of these companies.

[guerrillaradio]

What, by one person?? I bet McD's will really miss the £3 someone spends a week, when they're making multi-billion dollar profit$!!!

[Forever capitalism]

See you are thinking as an individual. Let's say all socialists stopped drinking coke then it would amount to simply you. Fact remains these monopolies and corporations that you claim own the world and are evil are presently running by people such as you who spend your money on their products. You claim they are greedy yet you drink coke everyday. How does that make sense. If you were smart you would boycott it and try and set an example. See what you are doing now is pretending to hate capitalism and wear che t-shirts and read marx for beginners books whilst at the same time living in a capitalist nation, working for one, buying products from capitalist corporations. You claim to be a communist but how can that be when you personally contribute to the "exploitation of the workers around the world". lol see no wonder communism doesn't work, apparent communists might preach it in theory but in practice they are as corrupt as the communist dictators that preceded them.

[Michael De Panama]

Stop desperately attacking the hypocrites.

I sure as hell don't wear Nike, drink Coke, or eat at McDonalds.

I sure as hell don't go off and spend $15 on a Che Guevara t-shirt. I think the marketing of communist ideology is complete hypocracy.

But we all have our tiny little hypocracies if you look hard enough. That's what makes the world imperfect. That doesn't mean that we're the same oblivious consumers as everyone else. Stop generalizing the communists as all a bunch of hypocrites. I want a respectful debate here. Either that or we could resort to name-calling. It's just as childish as your generalizations and stubbornness, and it's a lot less difficult to type up.

[Forever capitalism]

Mike i don't know where that response came here. I was simply pointing out how many so called communists endulge in capitalist products whilst preaching an ideology that condemns such practices. I remember when economic summit was held in melbourne, australia in 2000 i think these socialists were protesting and when one guy got reported by a journalist, the journalist pointed out that while he was throwing bricks at nike stores he was in fact wearing nike shoes!!!!

[guerrillaradio]

Ok, firstly, I'm not a socialist or communist. I take the pick 'n' mix attitude to politics (if you know what I mean). I have respect for Che because he truly fought for what he believed in, something that is so rare amongst political leaders.

So the fact that I drink Coke makes me a capitalist?? No, I don't think so. I boycott McDs, Starbucks and Nike, but Coke is where I have to draw the line. Like I said, we are living in a capitalist system not through choice, and so our best bet is to try and make the best of this life. If that means that the CEO of Coke gets a fiver richer every couple of weeks, so be it. And yes, I am thinking as an individual, because I see myself as a individual.

And anyway, if we take your idea to be true, then if you ever give money to a beggar, then you are surely a communist. Think about it...

[sabre]

i actually dont boycott starbucks becuase they are of one of the better corporations:

1) instead of building a water tower in the small poor village where coffee beans are grown so the farmers can process the b eans like OTHER coffee companies do, starbucks builds a water supply for the WHOLE VILLAGE so they all get fresh clean water

2) a oucple years back 5 starbucks employees were murdered on the job and the shop robbed, the CEO of starbucks flew down to D.C where this all happened, met with the families, and set up trust funds for all of their kids so they can go to college. That starbucks which the murderes happened has re opened, and ALL PROFITS go to an anti-violence organization (i forget which one)

2) most chains only employ part time employees (instead of 1 full time, they do 2 part time) so they dont have to pay like health care and retirement benfits for full time workers, but if you work over 20 hours a week then starbucks gives you all the benefits of a full tiem employee

4) you guys know how oprah recommends a book every month and its in "oprah's book club"? Well starbucks sells that book at their shops and donates all profit from those book slaes to literacy funds for adults that cant read

learn the facts before you blindly boycott due to the company's size

[Moskitto]

I generally try to use the following

Coffee Shop - Costa (mmm, hot chocolate and marshmallows)
Eat Place - Pret a Mange (gives it's leftovers to homeless people, but has a large number of it's shares owned by McDonalds)
Trainers - Reebok (I only wear them because I need good quality trainers for what I do and I can get them cheaply from a Bicester.)
Boats - Plastex Starlight (Sprint) and Kirton/Struer Delta (Marathon)
Drink - Water, Aldi Isotonic Drink or Water+GO2 Electrolyte powder
Paddles - Braca Sport (Hungarians use them, Hungarians>The Rest)
Honey - Local Honey (mmm, Bedfordshire)
Coffee at Home - Often we get some very good fairtrade coffee from France, but when that runs out we have to use the ordinarry stuff.

[deadpool 52]

Not to mention how Starbucks has raped the Itailian culture. hahaha

[sabre]

raped the italian culture?

[guerrillaradio]

Sabre - Starbucks' tactics in attracting business are horrible. Take a small US town with say, four independent cafes. Suddenly a Starbucks opens in town. For the sake of argument, each cafe has an equal 20% of business. Within a year, five more Starbucks have opened in town. Now each cafe has 10% of the business. All the indie cafes have had their business reduce from 20% to 10%, so they're making serious losses. However, Starbucks are getting 60% of the town's businesses in total. So, because of the losses, one by one, the indie cafes shut down until all that's left in town is six Starbucks outlets, of course taking 100% of the business. With all the business acquired, Starbucks don't need six stores in town, so they shut down five, making redundant all the low-paid kids who were naively recruited only a year or so previously, and all that's left in a whole town is one Starbucks...fair??

[Forever capitalism]

But then wouldn't cafes see a one starbucks in a whole town as a business opportunity to take advantage of. They would set up shop, hence competition. The cycle won't continue as Starbucks won't want to oversaturate the market plus opening up another 5 to squash local competition is costly and unpopular. Capitalism allows for small enterprise as well as big business

[guerrillaradio]

Maybe...it's too early to say.

I was only posting one of Starbucks' aggressive "competition" tactics. Another one is to buy out all the local cafes so they don't need to bother about construction costs and they get a high street placing. Often they don't bother asking the tenants (ie the cafe manager) before they go to the landlords.

In the UK, Starbucks bought out the Seattle Coffee Company's entire lease by way of introduction to the country. Therefore, every building that used to be SCC is now Starbucks. This is clever you see because all the old SCC's customers would now use Starbucks, as it filled the same role in their daily routine and was in the same building. (That is not necessarily a bad thing, it's merely an observation.)

http://www.nologo.org

[sabre]

actually it wouldnt FC because these teeny coffee shops dont have enough money to lean back on if they cut prices to attract customers like starbucks can. It's unfair and the big guy succeeds always

[guerrillaradio]

Maybe...it's too early to say.

I only mentioned one of Starbucks' aggressive tactics. Another involves buying the buildings of local cafes. There are four reasons for this:

(i) It saves money on construction costs
(ii) It removes competition from the town
(iii) It gives Starbucks a prominent high street position
(iv) It ensures that the old cafe's clients use Starbucks as an alternative, as they also serve coffee and they're in the same building.

A good big-scale example of this is Starbucks' buying out of the Seattle Coffee Company here in the UK. The SCC had 92 outlets up and down the country, but in 1996 Starbucks bought every single building on which a SCC was located in the UK. This is a good way of introducing Starbucks to the UK, as many people see no difference between SCC and Starbucks. Very cunning indeed.

[guerrillaradio]

Oops, sorry, I kinda posted that idea twice. No worries, we all make mistakes...

[sabre]

well of course but id rather buy at a starbucks than any other large coffee company i.e. Coffee tree or coffee bean or whatever its called

starbucks is a nice green company, then might take part in evil corporate tactics, but which corps. dont? they are comparatively good

[Moskitto]

I once saw in the independant a comparison chart between the CEO of Starbucks and a coffee grower.

[guerrillaradio]

And...what did it say??

[Moskitto]

It was like that wresting comparison I made, it had stuff like.

Annual Income

Coffee Grower - $100
Chief Executive - $5,000,000

However good News on the Starbucks front is that they will be supplying fairtrade coffee instead of the normal type.

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=140187

[sabre]

precisely - they aren't half bad

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 8:09 am on Mar. 22, 2002
Mike i don't know where that response came here. I was simply pointing out how many so called communists endulge in capitalist products whilst preaching an ideology that condemns such practices. I remember when economic summit was held in melbourne, australia in 2000 i think these socialists were protesting and when one guy got reported by a journalist, the journalist pointed out that while he was throwing bricks at nike stores he was in fact wearing nike shoes!!!!

Well fuck those people! They are just a bunch of morons. They do not represent the ideology itself, merely the ideology of the trendy non-conformist.