Holiday homes are just completely wrong!

[spartan]

During my suspension i had time to check out sites that i had always told myself to but which i had never got round to doing before.

Now most of these sites were connected to Welsh Republicanism and Welsh independence, but there was something specific on these sites that struck me profoundly, and that was so called "second homes" (Holiday homes).

Now holiday homes are residences that are bought by rich people and lived in for a couple of weeks a year when these rich people decide to go on holiday to this part of the world where their holiday home is.

Now what struck me as unfair was that Wales is the poorest region of the UK and like most countries in the world has a problem with homelessness and inadequate housing for a significant percentage of its population.

Now these well maintained holiday homes are unoccupied for about three quarters of the year and yet there are still people living homeless when there are perfectly good homes like these going empty!:mad:

Only a fucked up system like Capitalism could create this sort of situation where perfectly good homes, empty for most of the year, arent going to those who need them most and would make the most of them (The homeless, poor and those with families struggling to make ends meet).

There was a Welsh Nationalist movement, active from the late 70's through to the early 90's, called "Meibion Glyndwr" (The sons of Glyndwr) who started a campaign of firebombing unoccupied holiday homes in Wales owned by rich English people, who were driving up housing prices for local working class Welsh people (Who were finding it hard enough after Thatcher's privitisation let alone not being able to afford good housing), which had the double effect of making housing unaffordable to the local population and destroying once completely Welsh speaking communities in the process (Which has contributed significantly to the decline of the Welsh language over the past 50 years).

It should be pointed out that three other movements also claimed responsibility for some of the firebombings including Mudiad Amddiffyn Cymru (The movement to defend Wales, often abbreviated to MAC using the Welsh initials), Cadwyr Cymru (The keepers of Wales) and The Welsh Army for the Workers Republic (WAWR).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meibion_Glynd%C5%B5r (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meibion_Glynd%C5%B5r)

What are your thoughts on holiday homes and also how they effect local communities?

[Asoka89]

The markets unchecked do not act ethically. We have homeless people in America, over three million of them. So the question is; do we have unemployed people (yes), do we have enough lumber, brick, etc. (yes), so why can't we build housing to make sure at least every child has a chance to grow up in a stable environment. Why don't we, because Capitalists who own property do not want to deflate the price of their real estate and the system is based upon profits and not the needs of people.

Holiday houses are fine if their are rules applied to them. People who visit Wales contribute to local economies there, but when they are unoccupied their should be measures to force them to offer the houses for regulated rents, or better yet to make these houses locally owned (publically) and force holidayers to pay a small rent on the houses, out of season they can be used as temporary housing for those that need it.

You can't forget the money that tourism/holidaying brings into local economies though, there just needs to be broad regulations and safeguards.

[Red_or_Dead]

I dont think that there is anything at all wrong with holiday homes. Just like there is nothing wrong with expensive cars, private jets, ect. Its the people and how they get those things. If a proletarian has a holiday home somewhere, I dont see any problem, and Im strictly against forcing him/her to give it up, even for just a part of the year. If a bourgeoise has one, thats different. Proletarian had to do it with what he/she earned from his/her own work, while the bourgeoise did it with what he/she earned from other peoples work.

In any case, in a future communist society, Im guessing that no one will have to give up his/her holiday home to the homeless, because the whole homeless issue will have to be dealt with, and there will be no homeless people.

[Devrim]

We have one.:D
Devrim

[chegitz guevara]

Many workers in America have vacation homes, generally through time sharing, but also cabins up in the woods. Retirees also frequently have two residences, one in the North during the summer and one own here in the winter.

[Dros]

Many workers in America have vacation homes, generally through time sharing, but also cabins up in the woods. Retirees also frequently have two residences, one in the North during the summer and one own here in the winter.

Where exactly in Africa and what types of workers?

I seriously doubt diamond miners really have one home...

[lombas]

I know many holiday homes I wouldn't want my cat to live in.

:glare:

[Organic Revolution]

I dont think that there is anything at all wrong with holiday homes. Just like there is nothing wrong with expensive cars, private jets, ect. Its the people and how they get those things. If a proletarian has a holiday home somewhere, I dont see any problem, and Im strictly against forcing him/her to give it up, even for just a part of the year. If a bourgeoise has one, thats different. Proletarian had to do it with what he/she earned from his/her own work, while the bourgeoise did it with what he/she earned from other peoples work.

In any case, in a future communist society, Im guessing that no one will have to give up his/her holiday home to the homeless, because the whole homeless issue will have to be dealt with, and there will be no homeless people.

Because a holiday home is some how attainable to the worker? Contrary to your analysis of economics, the proletariat cant afford to have private jets, fancy cars, holiday homes, so the people owning these are the bourgeoisie.
And in any case, I would hope after a revolution holiday homes would be abandoned and reclaimed for more sensible things like, say, one house, one car. Can you give me a good reason to own more than you need?

[Devrim]

Because a holiday home is some how attainable to the worker? Contrary to your analysis of economics, the proletariat cant afford to have private jets, fancy cars, holiday homes, so the people owning these are the bourgeoisie.

No, the proletariat do not have private jets, but certainly many of them have holiday homes.

I mentioned before that we have one. Actually, it belongs to my in-laws. They were teachers all their lives, and their background is in the poor peasantry.

Also, as an example from another country, when I worked in a car factory in the Czech Republic, many line workers had cottages in the country side.

Are teachers, and production line workers bourgeois?

Devrim

[Red_or_Dead]

Because a holiday home is some how attainable to the worker? Contrary to your analysis of economics, the proletariat cant afford to have private jets, fancy cars, holiday homes, so the people owning these are the bourgeoisie.
And in any case, I would hope after a revolution holiday homes would be abandoned and reclaimed for more sensible things like, say, one house, one car. Can you give me a good reason to own more than you need?


Holiday homes are completely affordable, even to the proletariat, at least here. Of course I aint talking about a mansion with a huge estate and everything, just a normal small holiday house. And in some cases, if a proletarian is paid a decent wage, he/she can afford to buy a good car. Not a mercedes or a BMW, but a decent car, instead of an old worn out car, or not having a car at all.

Ok, scrap private jets, that is a silly example.

Define need. And Im not being a smart ass, I just wonder how would you define whats necessary and whats not for an average proletarian.

[Wanted Man]

It doesn't really matter what "the average proletarian" (lol) can afford. The point is that that there are lots of homeless people, and that social housing is being demolished in favour of bigger houses with higher values, that can bring in higher profits for the privatized housing corporations (at least, that's what's going on here).

At the same time, thousands of holiday homes stand completely empty all year, except for 1-4 weeks in the summer and/or winter. Disowning their owners and renting them to people will actually make them fulfill their use.

Of course, that doesn't mean that nobody should be allowed to go on holiday in a cottage anymore. Duh! There are plenty of cottages that are available for rent all season. But nobody "needs" private ownership of a house that they rarely use.

But people here seem to feel differently: fuck the homeless, poor, students, starters, etc. We want our yearly recreation, and we're not giving it away to the commoners. And some people who own holiday homes are "average proletarians", so we can even justify it from a pseudo-marxist point of view! Brilliant! :rolleyes:

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

They are not really that affordable to the average worker in the area's like Llangranog that the OP spoke of.

Spartan I was thinking of this the other day...

I think that after the revolution we should first ensure that every one has ONE house each to live in. Then after economic stability has resumed build houses owned communally to rent out to workers.


The fact is that under Capitalism buying a holiday home, if you ar proleteriat or bourguoise, pushes the prices up in that area. So in the end local workers can not afford to buy homes in the villages where they were brought up and maybe work in. We should not look at who owns them, but the effect on the working class community in the area.


As sais by Spartan they are also (partly) responsible for the decline in the Welsh language. Less Welsh speaking people could afford to own property in their area, usually a Welsh speaking area, and moved away. Eventually all these villages lost the language used by them for years. At one time everything in that vilage was done in the local language; now it is not.

I would also like to point out the work of Cymdeithas yr Iaith in relation to this matter.

http://cymdeithas.org/

http://cymdeithas.org/english/



A home is a place for people to live, most of the year. Our priority should be to ensure that everyone has homes; not that a minority have a nice place to holiday in for 2 weeks a year whilst others are living on the sreet.

[Organic Revolution]

No, the proletariat do not have private jets, but certainly many of them have holiday homes.

I mentioned before that we have one. Actually, it belongs to my in-laws. They were teachers all their lives, and their background is in the poor peasantry.

Also, as an example from another country, when I worked in a car factory in the Czech Republic, many line workers had cottages in the country side.

Are teachers, and production line workers bourgeois?

Devrim

And this justifies anything how? In the case of the Czech Republic,

"some estimates put the national number at around 35,000 (0.35% of the general population). Most homeless live in the larger metropolitan areas, having moved from smaller towns to Prague or Brno in the hope of finding work."

Whilst there is still homelessness and joblessness how can you justify owning two houses while some have none?

[Red_or_Dead]

It doesn't really matter what "the average proletarian" (lol) can afford. The point is that that there are lots of homeless people, and that social housing is being demolished in favour of bigger houses with higher values, that can bring in higher profits for the privatized housing corporations (at least, that's what's going on here).

At the same time, thousands of holiday homes stand completely empty all year, except for 1-4 weeks in the summer and/or winter. Disowning their owners and renting them to people will actually make them fulfill their use.

Of course, that doesn't mean that nobody should be allowed to go on holiday in a cottage anymore. Duh! There are plenty of cottages that are available for rent all season. But nobody "needs" private ownership of a house that they rarely use.

But people here seem to feel differently: fuck the homeless, poor, students, starters, etc. We want our yearly recreation, and we're not giving it away to the commoners. And some people who own holiday homes are "average proletarians", so we can even justify it from a pseudo-marxist point of view! Brilliant! :rolleyes:


Well, in a communist society there wont be privatized housing corporations, so thats one problem solved.

As for private ownership of holiday homes, I agree that the first priority is to take care of people who need a home. But after that is solved, I dont see any real problems in people owning their own holiday homes.



I think that after the revolution we should first ensure that every one has ONE house each to live in. Then after economic stability has resumed build houses owned communally to rent out to workers.


That is a good idea as well. I know that many of our companies own holiday homes that they rent to their employees for a small rent (a system established in socialism of course, I guess no one would dream of doing something similar under current circumstances).

[Wanted Man]

Glad that's cleared up. :)

About owning them (after providing homes): it would be better if they were all available for rent, so more people could use them in a year.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Glad that's cleared up. :)

About owning them (after providing homes): it would be better if they were all available for rent, so more people could use them in a year.


Yes, but someone must "own" them to rent them. So the local community should decide how many homes and where and then rent them out on a first come first serve basis.

[Red_or_Dead]

Glad that's cleared up. :)

About owning them (after providing homes): it would be better if they were all available for rent, so more people could use them in a year.

I guess so. In any case, one thing that comes to mind is that the state (as long as there is one, anyway) should have a role in determining their number and location. An example that Im very familiar with is the north-Croatian coast, that is nearly completely packed with holiday home, for-rent-apartments and hotels. Not good for the enviroment, to say the least.

[Devrim]

And this justifies anything how? In the case of the Czech Republic,

"some estimates put the national number at around 35,000 (0.35% of the general population). Most homeless live in the larger metropolitan areas, having moved from smaller towns to Prague or Brno in the hope of finding work."

Whilst there is still homelessness and joblessness how can you justify owning two houses while some have none?

I don't need to justify anything, nor did I try to. I just commented that some workers have a cottage or summer house.

What you seem to be doing is trying to blame homelessness on these people. Unemployment and poverty are not caused by one worker, or even one capitalist owning a holiday home. They are caused by the economic system.

Your point stinks of moralism.

Devrim

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Deverim by buying a holiday home in Llangranog say, you are pushing the price of houses up in that area. Thus local workers cant afford housing and move to a city....end up on the streets or whatever. You are not the cause of the problem; capitalism is. But by owning a holiday home you make the situation worse for the local workers.

For example by buying from "bad" companies like Coca-Cola, Nike etc. you make the situation worse for the workers. You are not the cause of the problem but there are alternatives to you buying from the companies that make life (paticularly) bad for workers.

[bezdomni]

Most people in the USSR had "holiday homes".

[Devrim]

For example by buying from "bad" companies like Coca-Cola, Nike etc. you make the situation worse for the workers. You are not the cause of the problem but there are alternatives to you buying from the companies that make life (paticularly) bad for workers.

As opposed to the companies that make life good for workers? This is just liberal nonsense.


As sais by Spartan they are also (partly) responsible for the decline in the Welsh language. Less Welsh speaking people could afford to own property in their area, usually a Welsh speaking area, and moved away. Eventually all these villages lost the language used by them for years. At one time everything in that vilage was done in the local language; now it is not.

And your point is? Why should I care?

The reality behind the whole firebombing campaign is viciously nationalistic and has nothing to do with socialism.

Devrim

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

What you said about companies is right; there are no good ones. The capitalist system is the problem, but certain companies make life worse for workers than others.


You shhould care because you are forcing people to move from their home town!



Why is Welsh republicanism never supported, whilst Ireland or the Basque at times is?

[Vanguard1917]

Whilst there is still homelessness and joblessness how can you justify owning two houses while some have none?


How can you justify owning two pairs of shoes when some people in the world can't afford not walk bare feet? How can you justify eating that second plate of food when millions of people are going hungry?

As you can see, this is some really rubbish logic. It's moralism, like Devrim points out.

[Devrim]

What you said about companies is right; there are no good ones. The capitalist system is the problem, but certain companies make life worse for workers than others.

Yes, and often the big ones that liberals moan about actually have better conditions for workers, due to the fact that they are big companies, and large numbers of workers struggle collectively. I would rather work an eight and a half day five day week at Coca-Cola then a sixty five hour six day week in a family run textile sweatshop. All companies try to extract as much surplus value from the workers a s possible.


You shhould care because you are forcing people to move from their home town!

I was talking about the Welsh language.


Why is Welsh republicanism never supported, whilst Ireland or the Basque at times is?

They are not supported by us.

Devrim

[spartan]

They are not supported by us.

Dont be silly, loads of revleft memebrs have expressed, at the very least, solidarity with Irish Republicanism and Basque separatism on many occassions (You can include a few other separatist movements in there as well like the Kurds).

Wales should be entitled to self determinition just like the rest of the separatist movements, supported by the left, propose for their regions.

Wales is the poorest region of the UK and the government in Westminster obviously doesnt put much thought or care into tackling this problem, so why should Wales not get a degree of independence and manage its own affairs? (And dont bring up the assembly government who have inadequate powers to truely tackle the major problems that effect Wales at the moment).

An example of the powerless situation of Wales is the village of Capel Celyn, who's inhabitants were forcibly ejected from their homes in 1965 so that the village could be flooded to build a reservoir to provide water to Liverpool (An English city).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capel_Celyn

And all this despite the opposition of 35 out of the 36 Welsh MP's in Parliament (The 1 Welsh MP remaining abstained from voting), all the local Welsh authorities, the local people in the village and a huge amount of Welsh people all over Wales!

Some Welsh people even set up militant resistance groups who carried out a series of bombings on the construction site and other targets (Mostly associated with the investiture of Prince Charles as Prince of Wales) all over Wales in the 60's and 70's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudiad_Amddiffyn_Cymru

If our elected representatives could not do anything to stop this reservoir project then what sort of Democracy is it that we live in?

I also think it no coincidence that Capel Celyn, one of the last Welsh only speaking communities in this part of Wales, was selected for this reservoir project, as there has been a protracted effort on the part of the government to force the English language onto non-English language speakers such as the Welsh since the 19th century with the "Treachery of the blue books" incident and the beating of Welsh schoolchildren who spoke Welsh on the school grounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treachery_of_the_Blue_Books

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not

The way i see it is that everyone has a right to speak their own language and not be forced into speaking another tongue.

I would also like to add that Welsh Republicanism isnt a reactionary movement either, as most if not all Welsh Republican groups that i have come across propose a Democratic Socialist society.

[Devrim]

Dont be silly, loads of revleft memebrs have expressed, at the very least, solidarity with Irish Republicanism and Basque separatism on many occassions (You can include a few other separatist movements in there as well like the Kurds).

This is true. However, the we I was referring to is our organisation, or even the communist left in general. We reject all nationalism, and maintain that all organisations who support national liberation movements are bourgeois political organisations.


The way i see it is that everyone has a right to speak their own language and not be forced into speaking another tongue.

We agree that nobody should be forced into speaking another tongue. However, we don't support minority languages in themselves, nor are we against them.

Personally, I grew up speaking a minority language. It is about five years since I spoke even a word in it, and I couldn't care less if it died tomorrow. Others might like speaking their own language. It is a personal issue.


I would also like to add that Welsh Republicanism isnt a reactionary movement either, as most if not all Welsh Republican groups that i have come across propose a Democratic Socialist society.

Today, all nationalism is reactionary.

Devrim

[Invader Zim]

Welsh nationalism is fucking ridiculous.

In terms of economics Wales has very little going for it without being part of the Union; Wales lacks the historical tradition of nationalism that exists in say N. Ireland and Scotland (indeed it was Welsh individuals who demanded Union in 1535); Wales has traditionally been a highly monarchist and loyalist part of Britain; etc.

I just don't get it, it has no benefits for Wales (which is my home) and lacks most of the historical justification. It seems that Welsh nationalism is the product of an attempt to preserve the Welsh language, which was the product changing attitudes in Wales in the mid 20th century, rather than a policy of cultural imperialism on the part of the English (despite the Claims by Spartan; I know this through the experience of my own family). In terms of nationalism Wales has always been a hot bed of support for the Union right up until the mid part of the 20th century, and you can see plenty of British nationalism in Wales in the historical sources. Welsh nationalism is a very modern trend and I fail to see any justification for a socialist, and by definition an internationalist, to be supporting a nationalist cause especially one without a tradition or real basis over the last 500 years.

This is one guy who doesn't vote, and even if he did certainly won't not vote for Plaid Cymru in the Assembly elections. In terms of Plaids policies, they are easily the most progressive of the mainstream parties in the UK on the majority of issues, and I fully support the efforts to preserve the Welsh language. But I will not support a party that promises to ruin the livelihood of my neighbours; and without even a shred of historical or material justification for doing so, just an illogical xenophobia of the English. Total madness.


and the beating of Welsh schoolchildren who spoke Welsh on the school grounds.Firstly, that only occured in a minority of areas, and towards the end of the 19th century that minority decreased still further. Secondly the major decline in the Welsh language did not occur until well after the 19th century. At the turn of the century still around half the Welsh population spoke Welsh as a first language. The major decrease in Wales occured in the first half of the 20th century. prior to that point the Welsh language was deceasing slowly and had been for centuries. I am currently reading about a senior Welsh methodist in the late 18th century; and I have seen not a shred of evidence to show that he understood even a word of Welsh; and the Welsh language was strongest in the nonconformist communities! If we needed any evidence that Welsh, as a popular medium, was dying long before any kind of punative measures were being employed in the industrial revolution against Welsh speaking children, then it is that.


You need to stop reading Gwynfor Evans's Land of my Fathers, its crap.

Incidentally you do realise that your avatar image is actually the colours of the Tudor kings of England.


Why should I care?

Because Welsh is one of, if not, the oldest language still regularly spoken. And as such letting it die would, in my opinion, would be a blow to human culture. But that is, of course, just my own sentimental position as one of the many people of Welsh ancestry who have unfortunately lost knowledge of the language and wishes he hadn't.

[bezdomni]

(And dont bring up the assembly government who have inadequate powers to truely tackle the major problems that effect Wales at the moment).

ooooh damn! I was just about to bring that up!

[Devrim]

Because Welsh is one of, if not, the oldest language still regularly spoken. And as such letting it die would, in my opinion, would be a blow to human culture. But that is, of course, just my own sentimental position as one of the many people of Welsh ancestry who have unfortunately lost knowledge of the language and wishes he hadn't.

That is your personal sentimental opinion as you say.

The idea of something being the oldest language though is quite a bizarre concept.

Devrim

[spartan]

Wales lacks the historical tradition of nationalism that exists in say N. Ireland and Scotland (indeed it was Welsh individuals who demanded Union in 1535);

You have to remember that the Welsh were strong supporters of Henry Tudor (Who founded the Tudor dynasty in the late 15th century) as he had strong Welsh connections (He was born in Wales and had Welsh ancestory on both sides of the family) and launched his bid for the throne by landing in Wales and recruiting Welsh soldiers into the ranks of his army.

Alot of Welsh people also saw his becoming King as the fulfilment of a prophecy which stated that one day a Welshman would become King of England and unite the whole of Britain into one Kingdom (It sounds silly but this was a widespread belief in Wales at the time and the Welsh have historically always been regarded as a highly superstitious people, you would have noticed also that after the Tudor dynasty was founded there were no more major rebellions by the Welsh, who you rightly pointed out became loyal subjects).

The Union in 1535 was mostly welcomed by the Welsh because after centuries of being second class citizens (And in some cases not even being allowed to live in Welsh towns occupied by the English army due to fear of rebellion) the Welsh now had the same rights and opportunities as the English had enjoyed, which the Welsh saw as making them equal citizens.


Incidentally you do realise that your avatar image is actually the colours of the Tudor kings of England.

Yeah but the Tudor colours were used mostly on the Tudor rose (Which was a symbol of the new found unity between the houses of Lancaster and York who were the two sides who fought against each other in the "war of the roses").

Anyway i actually made my avatar by taking the Welsh flag and replacing the dragon with a Socialist red star:D


But I will not support a party that promises to ruin the livelihood of my neighbours; and without even a shred of historical or material justification for doing so, just an illogical xenophobia of the English. Total madness.

I havent read that Plaid want to turn out English people?

I myself have Cornish and English (Lancashire and Yorkshire i believe) ancestory.

Modern Wales is very much a multicultural nation with some of our most famous people being of non-Welsh ancestory (Rugby player Colin Charvis, the very successful athlete Colin Jackson, and the famous singer Shirely Bassey amongst many others).

And of course who can forget the multi racial community in Tiger bay (Now Cardiff Bay) in Cardiff, which has given us Shirley Bassey and world famous Footballer Ryan Giggs (Who's father is of mixed Sierra Leoneon and Dutch ancestory).

All Welsh Republican groups i have come across are vehementally anti-BNP and campaign against racism and all sorts of discrimination (Which is understandable seeing how the Welsh were a historically oppressed and discriminated against people as well).

Anyway i myself am split on this issue of complete Welsh independence as i, like you, cant see an independent Wales surviving for long due to the economy, though i have heard that Wales has a huge abundance of natural resources not being exploited?

The main thing that concerns me is the survival of the Welsh language which i am sad to say i myself cant speak:(

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Welsh IS the oldest living language in Wales, and if it dies many historical texts will die (in mainstream terms). Also learning Welsh and English can improve the academic performance of a child.


Zim no one proposed full independance, just a Parliament with law making powers. Wlars has always been more leftward than England in political terms.

Zim you are misguided on Unionism in Wales...you obviously have'nt read many Welsh language books or poems etc. And if you are talking historically, I feel it apropriate to mention Owain GLyndwr, and his army. They faught off, and nearly beat the English in Wales.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r)

Around 1400 he wanted a Parliament for Wales...certainly a man ahead of his time!


Back to the point...Zim when you speak of you neighours do you mean England or English people living in Wales? If you think that Plaid or other republicans want to expell all English, then you are wrong...very wrong!

[Invader Zim]

do you mean England or English people living in Wales?No, I mean Welsh people living in Wales. The point is that, beyond this odd brand of emotive nationalism there is no material reason to break from the UK; indeed to do so would cripple the economy; which is already in a state and would ruin the livelihood of Welsh people.



Zim you are misguided on Unionism in Wales...you obviously have'nt read many Welsh language books or poems etc.LOL, if only that was the case (the stuff is dry as dust), I read plenty of Welsh literature. I am forced to read this stuff because I am doing a Masters dissertation focusing Welsh radicals and non-conformists; and all that stuff is necessary background reading. Obviously I read traslated work, stuff written in the medium of English and the scholarly studies of them rather than the Welsh medium material; but I have still probably read more of it than any other member of this board. The perils of studying Welsh history I'm afraid.


You have to remember that the Welsh were strong supporters of Henry Tudor (Who founded the Tudor dynasty in the late 15th century) as he had strong Welsh connections (He was born in Wales and had Welsh ancestory on both sides of the family) and launched his bid for the throne by landing in Wales and recruiting Welsh soldiers into the ranks of his army.I am well aware of the Tudor connection, to add to what you stated the Tudor family was connected to the same Tudur brothers, Gwilym and Rhys who captured Conwy Castle on behalf of Owain Glyndŵr in 1401.



Alot of Welsh people also saw his becoming King as the fulfilment of a prophecy which stated that one day a Welshman would become King of England and unite the whole of Britain into one KingdomI am well aware of the belief, which was heavily propagandised by Jasper Tudor, that Henry was the 'Son of Prophecy'. but you misunderstand the nature of the prophecy; it was not the idea that a Welsh man would one day rule Britain; but rather the belief that an individual would return and restore the power and status of the Welsh, in a time when Wales was still (theoretically if not practically) languishing under penal laws.

But these factors are hardly relevent, what is relevent is that following Henry VII's victory at Bosworth Wales was consistantly loyalist right through British history until very recently.


The Union in 1535 was mostly welcomed by the Welsh because after centuries of being second class citizens (And in some cases not even being allowed to live in Welsh towns occupied by the English army due to fear of rebellion) the Welsh now had the same rights and opportunities as the English had enjoyed, which the Welsh saw as making them equal citizens.The penal laws had more or less been done away with following the accession of Henry VII to power in Wales, they were largely abolished or ignored prior to the act of Union in 1535; certainly prior to the second act of Union. Other factors that were of importance was the state of the Marcher Lordships, fears of Spanish invasion and an unsecured Welsh coastline, a desire to have greater access to the Tudor court, the abolition of 'Gavelkind', a general wish to modernise and a certain post-War of the Roses nationalism; as in Welsh lords thought of them selves as Englishmen.


All Welsh Republican groups i have come across are vehementally anti-BNP and campaign against racism and all sorts of discrimination (Which is understandable seeing how the Welsh were a historically oppressed and discriminated against people as well).I have no problem with this aspect of Welsh nationalism, my problem is that nationalism is inherently reactionary in that it divides the working class based on non-class lines. As I said, socialists are fundermentally internationalistic. My second issue with Welsh nationalists is that they propose an idea that is fundermentally unsustainable.


Anyway i myself am split on this issue of complete Welsh independence as i, like you, cant see an independent Wales surviving for long due to the economy, though i have heard that Wales has a huge abundance of natural resources not being exploited?Wales natural respurces are, unfortunately, obsolite for the most part. Wales is still highly rich when it comes to coal (which was a hugely important resource), but coal is a messy and inefficient fuel which has been left behind by this country and the international community at large.

I just can't see an indpendent Wales surviving . Its a sad fact, but that is just the way it is; and I feel the same way about the language as you do.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

As I said I do not want a fully independant Wales

[Invader Zim]

As I said I do not want a fully independant Wales

Unfortunately, the progressive parties supporters, such as Plaid, do not necessarily hold the same view. In Aberystwyth there is a hall of residence (sp?) called Pantycelyn, a Welsh language hall and that is a hot bed of Welsh nationalism. As such I find it very easy to find hundreds of individuals, just minutes away, who when they talk of Welsh nationalism, really think of anti-unionism.

Of coyrse I have no issue with that, but the economic implications, under capitalism, are evidently vast. I simply can see no reason to support impoverishing the majority of people in Wales for a social construct.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Yes, as always it is impossible under capitalism


Are you a student at Aberytwyth?

[Invader Zim]

Yes, as always it is impossible under capitalism


Are you a student at Aberytwyth?

Yes, I do history.