why are people afraid to critize Israeli massmurder of Palestinians civilians?

[Peoplepower]

I hardly hear any defense of the mostly Palestinian and also Lebanonese civillians that have been slaughtered by the thousands by Israel since it's inception in 1948. Isn't this genocide and ethnic cleansing also? Don't the Arabs have rights? Or our we supposed to regard all Arabs and Palestinians and Lebanonese especially as some how sub-human and supress the war crimes and crimes against humanity that are constantly taking place against them.

If any other nation was doing the sort of thing Israel has been doing to the Palestinians all these years there would be cries of genocide, mass murder, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, crimes against humanity, dictatorship, tyranny. Yet somehow most people are scared to utter a word of critism towards Israel, meanwhile more Arabs and Palestinian civilians continue to die.

I feel a lot of this is based on continued religious zealotry and fanatical supersitution that it's God's will for Israel to kill the "heathen". All based on some tribal religious cult thousands of years old.

[bcbm]

Do you live under a rock? There's more criticism of the Israeli occupation than almost any other on the planet.


If any other nation was doing the sort of thing Israel has been doing to the Palestinians all these years there would be cries of genocide, mass murder, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, crimes against humanity, dictatorship, tyranny.

A lot of nations are doing exactly the same thing, if not doing it even worse, and basically nothing is said about them.

[Lector Malibu]

Actually there's been some debate involving exactly what you are talking about. I was just in one recently. I'm a little skeptical about your intentions with your first post going off on Israel though...just so you know.

[Peoplepower]

Sceptical I dare mention this? hmm some revolutionary. I see the arab people treated like worse than animals every day
and no it's not usually mentioned that way in the press the press usually glorifies Israel and calls the Palestinians "militants" and "terrorist".

Wheres the humanitarian concern for Arab's rights?

I KNOW IT'S HIP THESE DAYS TO VILLIFY ALL ARABS AND DEMONIZE THEM AS BEING SUB HUMAN THESE DAYS. I QUITE FRANKLY FIND THAT VERY RACIST BUT HEY IT'S IN VOGUE RIGHT?

[Lector Malibu]

Sceptical I dare mention this? hmm some revolutionary. I see the arab people treated like worse than animals every day
and no it's not usually mentioned that way in the press the press usually glorifies Israel and calls the Palestinians "militants" and "terrorist".

Wheres the humanitarian concern for Arab's rights?

I KNOW IT'S HIP THESE DAYS TO VILLIFY ALL ARABS AND DEMONIZE THEM AS BEING SUB HUMAN THESE DAYS. I QUITE FRANKLY FIND THAT VERY RACIST BUT HEY IT'S IN VOGUE RIGHT?


First off If you would read some other post on the forum I and a host of others have commented on Israel alot. Second as minority myself who has known hatred and bias especially growing up in the 70's I find ironic that you are saying that I am a racist. The only reason why I question your motives is because your first post is flailing on Israel it just struck me as odd.

[RNK]

A lot of it comes from discrimination, a lot of it comes simply from what people have learned. Some have this knack for thinking that anyone who fights against Israel is islamic jihadist terrorists -- this is mainly due to their eagerness to swallow zionist propaganda. Others are a bit more materialist and oppose them on grounds that while fighting Israeli imperialism is a just cause, the fact that these groups have not claimed global anti-capitalist revolution to be their end goal means that they are anti-worker -- this is mainly due to idealism.

There are those, however, that do conditionally support Palestinian resistance and view movements which are composed of an alliance of different class interests -- proletariat, peasant, bourgeois, etc -- against imperialism is more progressive than imperialism itself. They argue that in the long run, the national resistance movement would be a progressive step (citing that imperialism is the more immediate threat, rather than national bourgeoisie) which would be followed by support for radical, revolutionary tendencies after imperialism's defeat. Then there are some who take this opinion and radicalize it in the opposite way; they view nearly everyone who resists imperialism as inherently the lesser evil and the more progressive choice and so support what amount to incredibly reactionary tendencies -- ie, support in defense of the Iranian regime or the Taliban against imperialism.

[RNK]

Second as minority myself who has known hatred and bias especially growing up in the 70's I find ironic that you are saying that I am a racist.

With all due respect for what you've been through, this is not an automatic guilt-free pass. Israel itself has shown that a minority oppressed in the most brutal ways can turn around and exact a similar brutality against others.

[Lector Malibu]

With all due respect for what you've been through, this is not an automatic guilt-free pass. Israel itself has shown that a minority oppressed in the most brutal ways can turn around and exact a similar brutality against others.

Yes, but in my case it doesn't happen period. I'm just pointing out that he was wrong to suggest I was a racist because it was invouge !

[Prairie Fire]

I'm a little skeptical about your intentions with your first post going off on Israel though...just so you know.


:rolleyes:

Anyways, that,I think, demonstrates what Cmde. peoplepower means.

I think he is refering to the slanted coverage of Israeli militarism and imperialism in Bourgeois media; in this, he has a valid point. countries like Canada and the United States have even passed legislation to support Israel in any of their endeavours.

While there may be debate on revleft, that is largely irrlevent, as revleft is not a major media source. Even on Revleft, and even among the radical left, there are still individuals who are afraid to step on toes, and frighten easilly in the face of the "anti-semitism" boogeyman that the Israeli state and ideologues sic on their critics. This point is valid also.

That is why people rarely criticize Israeli imperialism:

The Imperialist powers won't do it, as they have a vested interest in Israel.

they control the TV stations, hence they propagate their views on the subject, and then far-right zionist ideologues, such as Canadian editor Ezra Levant, grill anyone who criticizes them or Israel as anti-semites.

For a lot of the people, they avoid the question out of social-cowardice, or out of ignorance on the subject.

[Sankofa]

Because you'll get called an anti-semite.

[Lector Malibu]

:rolleyes:

Anyways, that,I think, demonstrates what Cmde. peoplepower means.

I think he is refering to the slanted coverage of Israeli militarism and imperialism in Bourgeois media; in this, he has a valid point. countries like Canada and the United States have even passed legislation to support Israel in any of their endeavours.

While there may be debate on revleft, that is largely irrlevent, as revleft is not a major media source. Even on Revleft, and even among the radical left, there are still individuals who are afraid to step on toes, and frighten easilly in the face of the "anti-semitism" boogeyman that the Israeli state and ideologues sic on their critics. This point is valid also.

That is why people rarely criticize Israeli imperialism:

The Imperialist powers won't do it, as they have a vested interest in Israel.

they control the TV stations, hence they propagate their views on the subject, and then far-right zionist ideologues, such as Canadian editor Ezra Levant, grill anyone who criticizes them or Israel as anti-semites.

For a lot of the people, they avoid the question out of social-cowardice, or out of ignorance on the subject.

I agree completely with your post. Here's where I'm coming from, hear me out. The reason why I thought the way I did about his post is because rather than him looking around the forum to see what we were actually talking about he made a blanket assumption that nobody was questioning Israels behavior. I realize he was referring to the political arena , but I also got the impression he was referring to us specifically as well, almost condemning us as if we weren't speaking out enough.....er ...you... know...to ..the..... extreme he wants. Maybe I'm wrong though just got a vibe

[jake williams]

Because if you criticize Israel then you're a flaming neo-Nazi anti-Semite who thinks all Jews plot their conquest of the world from their underground base and drink blood. Also, as we all understand, Arabs are subhuman creatures with backward cultures whom we're constantly trying to rescue but they're not good enough for our benevolence so it always goes wrong. Also they're not from there anyway, that's Jewish land.


Sorry, but one of my closest (e-)friends is Jordanian, and his mom's Palestinian.


ed: Oh. If we're talking about us, then no, Israel never does get a free pass. I mean, I think most of the criticism is legitimate, but you can't really criticize RevLeft and such for not discussing Israel enough, at all.

I don't know if it's too much. Relative to its absolute importance - perhaps. But relative to the whole of Western culture persistent in this old-style colonialist adventure, on and on about how We're Really Good and how tough those Jews have had it (note: the Jews have historically fared way better under Islam than under medieval Europe, not to mention, you know, the German-Catholic collusion to finally wipe them out of Europe)... relative to mainstream discourse, we have a responsibility to make sure it's an issue not dusted aside.

[Winter]

Go to google video and search for "Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land". It explains everything you need to know, especially how the U.S. media filters out the victimization of the Palestinian people.

[Faux Real]

There is also the growing threat of losing your job in academia and losing your book publisher in the US if you criticize Israel in any way, shape or form. Norman Finklestein
and Joe Kovel get labeled anti-Semetic and "self-hating Jews" for calling out Israel on it's abuses and especially Kovel, who advocates a singular secular state in addition to the criticisms of Israel.

Criticism of Israel isn't taboo outside of the US.

[ArabRASH]

Being an Arab and Lebanese living in Lebanon, i'm quite satisfied with the positions of most people on this board with regards due to Israel. The bourgeouis media disgusts me though.

During the war, the destruction was terrible. Whole INNOCENT villages flattened by the IDF(see Bint Jbeil, or the Qana Massacre). But what did you see on CNN during the war?

"BREAKING NEWS. 20 ISRAELI CIVILIANS IN SHOCK AS HEZBOLLAH ROCKETS RAIN DOWN ON NORTHERN ISRAEL! oh and 130lebanesearedead. IN OTHER NEWS!..."

[chegitz guevara]

I hardly hear any defense of the mostly Palestinian and also Lebanonese civillians that have been slaughtered by the thousands by Israel since it's inception in 1948. Isn't this genocide and ethnic cleansing also?

Ethnic cleansing, yes. Genocide, no. Israel is not attempting to exterminate the Palestinians as a people, although there are certainly elements in Israel who do advocate this position.

The reason that most people (I'm excluding the left here) in the United States don't discuss the huge numbers Israel has killed over the last six decades is because the vast majority of those deaths occurred either in combat or in counter-terrorism operations. Americans are rather forgiving of "accidental" deaths in war time. Because in the American media, Israel is portrayed as a peace seeking country, deaths Israel causes among its "aggressors" are seen as unfortunate, but legitimate acts of war. Because the Palestinian and Arabs are seen as attacking Israel, these deaths are their own fault in American minds.

[black magick hustla]

every radical liberal and her granny critizises israel. just go to your nearest left wing professor, or college club.

the only solution is class action and world socialist revolution

[Regina]

As an Arab the first thing i looked at were the Israel threads i wont lie i hate Israel they killed my great uncle... I agree with ArabRash all u see on the news are the poor shocked Israelis i think the world stands still because of many things.

First of all Israel could pull out the holocaust card whenever it wants and the whole world will stand still lets face it there are more memorials that remind us of the holocaust than any other single event in human history. Im NOT a crazy Arab that thinks that the holocaust never happened, it happened and it was a terrible thing for anybody to go through but when it did happen and it became a reality the whole world turned around and tried to fix their mistake (turning away Jewish refuges) by creating a bigger one.

Secondly, Christianity is very closely linked to Judaism. Christians use the Hebrew bible as a divine scripture and although Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ (while Muslims do), Christians and Christianity consider Jews to be closest to them in religious following and evangelists in the United States who supported president Bush and support Mc Cain today believe that only by the establishment of a Jewish state that Christ will descend once again and the whole world will become Christian.

Thirdly, the lobbying Jews in the United States cannot be ignored they are very influential in the decision making processes up on Capitol Hill. Jews have money they are smart money makers and they have surrounded the cause of Israel also in hope of the coming on the Messiah.

Israelis kill innocent people as do Palestinians they are both killing each other no killing and no spilling of innocent blood is by any means justified but extreme oppression leads to extreme retaliation.

[bootleg42]

Go to google video and search for "Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land". It explains everything you need to know, especially how the U.S. media filters out the victimization of the Palestinian people.

I second this.

Also we here at revleft (for the most part) have criticized Israel a ton and we understand that Israel is an imperialist power and if you actually look at the structure of their state, they are as close to fascist as you can get without being "officially" labeled as fascists.

Their state has many nationalized industry with a ton of corporatism AND the state basically gives more rights to a person who considers them self jewish than any other person. One big part of fascism is the state's official recognition that one group (of either "race" or ethnicity or nationality) gets more rights than any other. Israel has just that.

[BobKKKindle$]

People are "afraid" to criticize Israel, especially denying Israel's legitimacy as a state, because this leaves them vulnerable to accusations of antisemitism, as it is often perceived that an attack on israel indicates that one possesses prejudiced views against Jewish people - this of course misses the fact that not all Jewish people support Israel, and some of the most aggressive critics of Israel are actually very orthodox Jews, who view Israel as inconsistent with their religion.

[Regina]

Historically and racially Arabs are semites too

[chegitz guevara]

Yes, but antisemitism is a hundred year old word which specifically refers to European anti-Jewish attitudes.

[Ferryman 5]

While some of this has something to do with religion in the same way that all our histories are bound up with religion, the main point is that Zionland is an imperialist outpost, a ‘cat’s paw ‘in and among the oil rich states of the middle east. Like apartheid South Africa and occupied Northern Ireland it will be destroyed by the revolutionary energy of the Palestinians.

[Red Blue Pen]

There is an overwhelming sentiment--at least in the U.S.--that Israel has the absolute divine right to be located smack dab in Palestine, and just as in the Bible, if people go against YHWH's wishes, they get smitten.

[Bazza]

I hardly hear any defense of the mostly Palestinian and also Lebanonese civillians that have been slaughtered by the thousands by Israel since it's inception in 1948. Isn't this genocide and ethnic cleansing also? Don't the Arabs have rights? Or our we supposed to regard all Arabs and Palestinians and Lebanonese especially as some how sub-human and supress the war crimes and crimes against humanity that are constantly taking place against them.

If any other nation was doing the sort of thing Israel has been doing to the Palestinians all these years there would be cries of genocide, mass murder, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, crimes against humanity, dictatorship, tyranny. Yet somehow most people are scared to utter a word of critism towards Israel, meanwhile more Arabs and Palestinian civilians continue to die.





Never heard of the song 'War Crimes'? You should have a listen. Came out back in 1982 on a little record label called 2 Tone. Here are a few lyrics from the song -


"Bombs to settle arguments, the order of the boot
Can you hear them crying in the rubble of Beirut?

I can still see people dying, now who takes the blame?
the numbers are different, the crime is still the same

From the graves of Belsen where the innocent were burned
To the genocide in Beirut, Israel was nothing learned?"