Jewishness in 'traditional Jewish Law' vs. Jewishness as a social construct

[SouthernBelle82]

Why would anyone here slam you for that? I think it's true too and we're seeing that. I think it's the same way for women too and I don't think racism or feminism is more than the other but pretty equal. I'm taking a sociology class right now and it's about social problems and we've talked briefly about racism and about what you said with Asians and Jews. He didn't mention Jews but Asians have always been model minorities because they work well and rise to the top and have an easy way of blending into the cultures where they live but at the same time sticking to their own ways and beliefs and Jewish people for the most part are a long the same lines I think.


I know I'll get a lot of heat for saying this but... institutional racism doesn't exist.

Are there racist individuals in the middle and upper classes? Yes.

Does society as a whole discriminate against minorities? No.

Take Asians and Jews as an example. They're "model minorities." They've risen to the top in America and elsewhere, because this so called "institutional racism" is a myth designed to protect the feelings of unsuccessful minorities.

[Lector Malibu]

I know I'll get a lot of heat for saying this but... institutional racism doesn't exist.

Are there racist individuals in the middle and upper classes? Yes.

Does society as a whole discriminate against minorities? No.

Take Asians and Jews as an example. They're "model minorities." They've risen to the top in America and elsewhere, because this so called "institutional racism" is a myth designed to protect the feelings of unsuccessful minorities.

Judaism is a religion not a race , continue please

[SouthernBelle82]

Uh yeah it is. You're determined if you're Jewish or not through your mother.


Judaism is a religion not a race , continue please

[Encrypted Soldier]

Judaism is a religion not a race , continue please

They're still a minority that has suffered from anti-Semitism. Had racism been institutionalized you wouldn't see any rich Jews, they'd be poor and most likely forced into ghettos like they have been for a large part of their history.


Uh yeah it is. You're determined if you're Jewish or not through your mother.

From a genetic stand-point this is wrong, but from a cultural-religious stand-point it is right.

Jews are genetically an ethnic group within the white "race" just like Poles or Russians or Italians or Arabs are.

But again, them being a separate ethnic group is besides the point. They still are a minority that has been historically discriminated against.

[SouthernBelle82]

You might want to read this- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

You can become Jewish through either your mother being Jewish or you can convert. From being born through your mother who is a Jewish is where the ethnic line of thought comes from.

I've always said and still believe there's only one color that matters: green.


First of all:



Stop referring to Jews like Judaism is a separate race or ethnic group. It's a religion; a school of thought. Any one can convert to being a Jew if they so choose.

The ancient Jews originate from Africa. The present day assumption that all Jews have white skin is 100% incorrect.

Moving on:



It's always interesting when I hear people who belong to the white majority attempt to deny that the United States, or the world, for that matter is not systematically racist. It's easy for you to claim this while you benefit from white privilege which has come from the exploitation of we "unsuccessful" minorities.

The Asian experience and the Black experience in America is vastly different. They certainly have been and sometimes are today discriminated against, it's ridiculous to compare them.

Your opinion reeks of racist undertones; almost implying that other "minorities" are in such a bad condition because they are some how inferior.

Nevermind that the persecution of Blacks is more than five centuries old, kidnapped from our native land, scattered across the globe in the greatest diaspora in history, robbed of our very identities: our names, families, languages, culture, traditions, and religions. Not to mention being labeled 3/5 of a human being in your constitution.

Having our very dignity, self-respect stripped through years of slavery, exploitation, beatings, rape and murder.

Officially, apartheid (in the United States) ended 38 years ago. You attempt to tell me that it's no longer a reality and everyone is equal?

This bloody legacy still affects Black people socially, economically, mentally, and physically. And after all that, you want to tell me that I and others imagine state racism and white privilege?

[Led Zeppelin]

No you can't "become Jewish through your mother".

Trotsky was by that definition a "Jew", but he never described himself as one, and he rejected the notion of being one.

Ethnicity is a social construct, it is not based on scientific reality.

[chegitz guevara]

According to Judaism, SouthernBelle82 is correct. You are a Jew if your mother was a Jew or if you convert. If your father was Jewish and your mother wasn't, you aren't a Jew. So the Jews would consider Trotsky a Jew whether he considered himself one or not. And for that matter, so did the Whites and later the Stalinists.

[SouthernBelle82]

Exactly. If your mother was a Jew you can reject it all you want but not your mother. He just wouldn't be a practicing Jew (see Jon Stewart).


According to Judaism, SouthernBelle82 is correct. You are a Jew if your mother was a Jew or if you convert. If your father was Jewish and your mother wasn't, you aren't a Jew. So the Jews would consider Trotsky a Jew whether he considered himself one or not. And for that matter, so did the Whites and later the Stalinists.

[Lector Malibu]

Uh yeah it is. You're determined if you're Jewish or not through your mother.

I'm talking from a biological stand point not religious. The supreme court didn't even recognize Jewish people as being " a race" till 1980 and it was for discrimination purposes...

[Led Zeppelin]

SouthernBelle82, could you please quote the messages above your response and not below it? Thanks.

chegitz, thank you very much for bringing up a totally irrelevant "argument". I already said that it was a social construct, do you know what that means? It means that some people believe in it, even though it is not based on scientific reality.

My point is that to us Marxists Trotsky is not a Jew, because we don't buy into social constructs made up of horseshit.

Now if you want to argue that the social construct itself exists, then you have me on your side, but if you want to buy into that social construct yourself you are buying into horseshit which is not supported by scientific evidence.

So either stop buying into it, or proclaim your support for it, don't try to portray it as some kind of "objective reality" when it is entirely subjective (i.e.; "some people consider him a Jew because his mother was one.")

[SouthernBelle82]

Why? Is it a TOS rule? If it's not a TOS rule then no.

I guess traditional Jewish law doesn't count now as relevant. :rolleyes:

You might want to read Jewish law hon.


SouthernBelle82, could you please quote the messages above your response and not below it? Thanks.

chegitz, thank you very much for bringing up a totally irrelevant "argument". I already said that it was a social construct, do you know what that means? It means that some people believe in it, even though it is not based on scientific reality.

My point is that to us Marxists Trotsky is not a Jew, because we don't buy into social constructs made up of horseshit.

Now if you want to argue that the social construct itself exists, then you have me on your side, but if you want to buy into that social construct yourself you are buying into horseshit which is not supported by scientific evidence.

So either stop buying into it, or proclaim your support for it, don't try to portray it as some kind of "objective reality" when it is entirely subjective (i.e.; "some people consider him a Jew because his mother was one.")

[Led Zeppelin]

So you have decided to buy into the social construct?

Ok, then you are delusional and anti-scienfitic, yet one more reason to totally disregard your opinion.

I am going to give it one more attempt though; Nazis claim that the "Aryan race" exists, do you also believe that? Are you willing to consider that "relevant" as you consider "traditional jewish law" to be relevant?

And no, it is not a TOS rule, but to me and many others it is annoying. I am the second person who has asked you to change it, and I know that there are many others who feel the same way. You wrote in your other thread that you wanted to be nice and respectful to us and our opinions; this is your chance.

I asked you nicely to change it, I don't demand you to do so, and I'm not saying anything will be done against you if you don't, I'm just asking it nicely. If you decide not to do it, though, I will consider you a common troll and ignore your posts from here on, since there is no reason whatsoever to quote the messages below the response instead of above it like everyone else does.

[SouthernBelle82]

So you have decided to buy into the social construct?

Ok, then you are delusional and anti-scienfitic, yet one more reason to totally disregard your opinion.

I am going to give it one more attempt though; Nazis claim that the "Aryan race" exists, do you also believe that? Are you willing to consider that "relevant" as you consider "traditional jewish law" to be relevant?

And no, it is not a TOS rule, but to me and many others it is annoying. I am the second person who has asked you to change it, and I know that there are many others who feel the same way. You wrote in your other thread that you wanted to be nice and respectful to us and our opinions; this is your chance.

I asked you nicely to change it, I don't demand you to do so, and I'm not saying anything will be done against you if you don't, I'm just asking it nicely. If you decide not to do it, though, I will consider you a common troll and ignore your posts from here on, since there is no reason whatsoever to quote the messages below the response instead of above it like everyone else does.

Okay Zeppelin I'm going to bow down to you and do whatever you say from now on. I guess you're the ruler of everyone here and if nobody does what you say and people don't agree with you on every single thing then fuck them right? So much for individuality and what a person says instead of how a person writes and how they post on a message board. I guess I put more into what a person says instead of how they put paragraphs and whatnot. I guess I was silly and I should always bow down to you oh great one. And yes hon that's sarcasm if you couldn't painfully see it.

Anti-scientific? Oh brother. I would like you to go say that to lots of Jewish people's faces who still believe that. You aren't Jewish are you? Especially traditional? Hon if you've ever read anything I've said here since I've been here you've would've read by now I don't believe there's a "pure" race. Did you ever notice how I put quotes around "pure"? Also in the bigger picture of the world I don't think race matters so much. Only one color does and that's green.

For the record hon the original Aryan's were brown. They too believed they were the "pure" race (notice again the quotes around the word hon). The Nazi's were ignorant fucks so why should anyone take them seriously? The fact you even take them seriously is funny.

I've already addressed your stupid concern about how I post. You care more about that than what a person says. Shows how close minded you are and pathetic but I'm going to do it just to show what an authoritative asshole you are.

[Led Zeppelin]

And yes hon that's sarcasm if you couldn't painfully see it.

Quite poor sarcasm at that.


Anti-scientific? Oh brother. I would like you to go say that to lots of Jewish people's faces who still believe that.

Go ahead, you'd be doing something progressive and worthwile for a change.


You aren't Jewish are you? Especially traditional? Hon if you've ever read anything I've said here since I've been here you've would've read by now I don't believe there's a "pure" race. Did you ever notice how I put quotes around "pure"? Also in the bigger picture of the world I don't think race matters so much. Only one color does and that's green.

Then why buy into the social construct of race and ethnicity? Too afraid to "hurt feelings"?

This is not the position of a Marxist, but a petty-bourgeois "socialist".


For the record hon the original Aryan's were brown. They too believed they were the "pure" race (notice again the quotes around the word hon). The Nazi's were ignorant fucks so why should anyone take them seriously? The fact you even take them seriously is funny.

Actually I did not take them seriously, I used them as an example because it seemed as though you took them seriously. Interesting how you try to turn it around and use it against me without addressing the issue raised by me bringing the comparison up.

Just answer the question; do you believe the race/ethnicity "aryan" exists because some people believe it does? Do you "respect their views" as you respect the views of "traditional jewish law"?

If you want to remain logically consistent you would have to, but that is something I do not necessarily expect of you given your positions on other matters.


I've already addressed your stupid concern about how I post. You care more about that than what a person says. Shows how close minded you are and pathetic but I'm going to do it just to show what an authoritative asshole you are.

You need to calm down and stop flaming so much. It is in the TSO that flaming is not allowed, so please refrain from doing so in the future.

[SouthernBelle82]

Quite poor sarcasm at that.

And I said I was trying? :rolleyes:


Go ahead, you'd be doing something progressive and worthwile for a change.

Only your opinion.



Then why buy into the social construct of race and ethnicity? Too afraid to "hurt feelings"?

This is not the position of a Marxist, but a petty-bourgeois "socialist".

In case you've missed it I am still new to communism. I've only been a communist for a short while after being a socialist and before that a liberal. I've changed my political beliefs pretty drastically in the last few months.


Actually I did not take them seriously, I used them as an example because it seemed as though you took them seriously. Interesting how you try to turn it around and use it against me without addressing the issue raised by me bringing the comparison up.

Just answer the question; do you believe the race/ethnicity "aryan" exists because some people believe it does? Do you "respect their views" as you respect the views of "traditional jewish law"?

I've already answered your question. I'm not going to repeat myself. You can read just fine can't you?


If you want to remain logically consistent you would have to, but that is something I do not necessarily expect of you given your positions on other matters.

There you go again with everyone having to agree with you or fuck them. :rolleyes: Grow up.



You need to calm down and stop flaming so much. It is in the TSO that flaming is not allowed, so please refrain from doing so in the future.

Yeah because God forbid I defend myself when nobody else will. You need to take your own advice. You've done shit to me plenty in this thread. Of course I'm not going to hold my breath for you to apologize. You expect others to "play nice" but don't do it yourself. Hypocrite.

[Led Zeppelin]

And I said I was trying? :rolleyes:

Don't be so lazy. If you want to do something at least put some effort into it, or you'll continue to be an utter failure at your endeavours.


Only your opinion.

Correction; the Marxist opinion.


In case you've missed it I am still new to communism. I've only been a communist for a short while after being a socialist and before that a liberal. I've changed my political beliefs pretty drastically in the last few months.

Right, you've brought this up several times now, and that is all fine and great, but that is no excuse for your condescending elitist behavior when you are challenged on your liberal views.

Whenever your views are correctly challenged by anyone you throw tantrums and attack the person doing it and cry "oppression!"

This may have worked with other comrades but you can't fool me with that petty nonsense. I know you are an adult, so start acting like one and stop trying to portray yourself as a victim of abuse when you are the person starting it.


I've already answered your question. I'm not going to repeat myself. You can read just fine can't you?

Your reply was poor, muddled and evasive.

I advise you to answer again and more elaborative this time.


There you go again with everyone having to agree with you or fuck them. :rolleyes: Grow up.

Without any principles there would be no such thing as ideologies. If you want to consider any principle to be sectarian, then you should either go live in the woods or give up on politics, because you're just playing a game and not being serious.

What you should do is read up on those principles and see if they are correct or not. Considering them to be a sign of "sectarianism" is subjectivist drivel, probably residue from your liberal days.


Yeah because God forbid I defend myself when nobody else will. You need to take your own advice. You've done shit to me plenty in this thread. Of course I'm not going to hold my breath for you to apologize. You expect others to "play nice" but don't do it yourself. Hypocrite.

"Defend yourself"? What do you think this is, a court of law? You need to stop taking yourself so seriously and realize that this is just an internet forum. You can't function very well in this atmosphere if you are too sensitive and weak to deal with criticism.

Over time your tantrums will become annoying and your reputation with other members will drop lower and lower, so I am merely trying to help you out by advising you to cut the crap and start acting seriously.

Besides, I never flamed you, you were the person who started the petty name-calling, which I find ironic coming from the person who told me to "grow up".

[Cubensis]

@ Southern: You accept the Jewish social constructs and therefore using your logic you ought to agree with the Nazi's Aryans as a legitimate race/ethnicity. I can see this would pose a problem with you...

[bcbm]

You can become Jewish through either your mother being Jewish or you can convert. From being born through your mother who is a Jewish is where the ethnic line of thought comes from.To the religious, perhaps. Anybody born of a Jewish (Hebrew would be the correct ethnicity, if I'm not mistaken) parents would be "Jewish" by basic ethnic standards.

[Led Zeppelin]

I'll respond to the original quote since it seems to be the start of the argument, though I'm not sure why it warranted a new thread and couldn't have been discussed in the thread from which it originally came.

Do you mean the Obama thread or the general social constructs thread?

If it's the latter, it's probably because Black Dagger engaged in a debate over the "social constructs in general" issue and this one was limited to the "Jewish" social construct, so that's probably why he split it (I am assuming it was him who did so, correct me if I'm wrong).

As for the former, well the Obama thread was being sidetracked by the discussion on social constructs, so I split it into a new one.

[bcbm]

Oh, ok. I didn't realize it was a split and not an entirely new thread.

[Awful Reality]

Uh yeah it is. You're determined if you're Jewish or not through your mother.

Doesn't Follow. Whether or not I live in house or a house is determined by my parents. Conversion and other factors make it so that an Aborigine and a Russian can both be Jewish.