Langean or Lange Model Socialism

[Encrypted Soldier]

I haven't posted on RevLeft for quite a while now, mainly because my personal beliefs have been jumping all over the political spectrum recently since I began reading more and more in depth about economics.

In any case, I was recently thinking if it could be possible to combine the strengths of a free market (massive amounts of wealth) with the strengths of a socialist planned economy (redistribution of wealth).

What I came upon is called "market socialism" (also known as Langean Socialism or simply the "Lange Model") which was proposed in its first form by Oskar R. Lange. It is not, as some might think, another form of the welfare state, welfare capitalism, or any other such idiocy.

It is an attempt to take the strengths of capitalism and to combine them with the strengths of socialism for a stronger, more efficient economy which redistributes wealth much better than capitalism.

For the sake of this thread, let's differentiate "market socialism" (which is often confused with welfare capitalism) from Langean/Lange Model Socialism.

The idea behind Langean Economics is that the government should set prices along the lines of supply and demand. I think this model could be further improved in a democratic society with worker councils (insuring that more money is returned to the workers). I'll post more on this later, when I have more time.

Here are a number of good web sites for reference:
Post Lange Market Socialism (http://www.wiu.edu/users/miecon/wiu/yunker/postlang.htm)
Wiki Market Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism)
Wiki Lange Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lange_Model)

[Raúl Duke]

Is there any communist future in your Langean Socialism?

How are you going to get to set it up?

[Encrypted Soldier]

According to Lange, yes. He was still technically a Marxist-Leninist (he was a member of the Lublin Party after WWII).

It would be set up like, theoretically, any other kind of socialism *should* transfer to communism.

Personally, however, I do not think that communism in the sense that we are talking about is feasible. In fact, I disagree with Marxist-Leninist vanguard theory and all of that BS. I believe in the basic economic principles of the Lange Model, not in all of Lange's beliefs.

Essentially, I would support a democratic national government and giving greater control of industries to the workers a la council communism right off the bat. I think mixing the principles of Lang Model Economics with democracy and syndicalism could create a powerful nation that would not be plagued by some issues that are found in the traditional version of communism and anarchism (i.e. less innovation).

This is a thread about Lange and his economic ideas though. So discussion of my personal beliefs would be besides the point.

[Die Neue Zeit]

So what you're saying is something akin to parecon, then? In that case, things are easy yet more complicated in the post-revolution "multi-economy":

http://www.revleft.com/vb/stamocap-t59014/index2.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/stamocap-t59014/index3.html

Your model could fit into the private-capitalist "economy" still existent in the overall "multi-economy," and such a model, combined with other cooperative models within the private-capitalist "economy," the central planning within the state-capitalist "economy" (because of scale), and advanced many-to-many communication technology, could enable the workers to be better equipped to manage their own economy without any bureaucracy - hence the directly democratic / socialist "economy."

[renegadoe]

"Massive amounts of wealth" isn't a strength of the free market. And "market socialism" is just a new catchphrase for bourgeois bullshit.

If being determines consciousness, how can "market socialism" be of any use in advancing toward communism?

[Black Dagger]

I think mixing the principles of Lang Model Economics with democracy and syndicalism could create a powerful nation that would not be plagued by some issues that are found in the traditional version of communism and anarchism (i.e. less innovation).So you're proposing a proto-capitalist model of economy by which 'powerful nation [states]' can be established? What does that have to do with the communist project (abolishing class, capitalism and the nation-state)?

[Encrypted Soldier]

So what you're saying is something akin to parecon, then? In that case, things are easy yet more complicated in the post-revolution "multi-economy":

http://www.revleft.com/vb/stamocap-t59014/index2.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/stamocap-t59014/index3.html

Your model could fit into the private-capitalist "economy" still existent in the overall "multi-economy," and such a model, combined with other cooperative models within the private-capitalist "economy," the central planning within the state-capitalist "economy" (because of scale), and advanced many-to-many communication technology, could enable the workers to be better equipped to manage their own economy without any bureaucracy - hence the directly democratic / socialist "economy."

I'm not too familiar with parecon, besides the fact that it involves some kind of syndicalism on a mass scale. But in that sense, yes, what I'm proposing is similar, in that my idea combines the Lange Model of socialism (supply-demand prices) with syndicalism (worker control of industries).


"Massive amounts of wealth" isn't a strength of the free market.

Yes it is.

The more lassiez faire an economy is the more wealth it generates. Compare Russia to the United States. Russia has a tight hold on many of its corporations, protecting them from any kind of competition. On the other hand, the US has a much freer market than Russia (not 100%) and thus generates more wealth. Living standards in the US are much much higher due to this.


And "market socialism" is just a new catchphrase for bourgeois bullshit.

If being determines consciousness, how can "market socialism" be of any use in advancing towards communism?

Reread what I posted.

Market socialism is not a capitalist-socialist hybrid a la China. The Lange Model proposes a centrally planned system which follows supply-demand to set prices, which could prevent massive shortages. Other models propose a more democratic process within the industries themselves.

This would combine the powers of capitalism with wealth distribution and lead to a much better society.


So you're proposing a proto-capitalist model of economy by which 'powerful nation [states]' can be established? What does that have to do with the communist project (abolishing class, capitalism and the nation-state)?

If you haven't gotten the drift yet, I am not a communist. I am a socialist.

This model would abolish class and capitalism. If you combine council communism/syndicalism/whatever else you want to call it with the Lange Model, you would get an economy owned by the workers which doesn't suffer the same set-backs as traditional socialism but also redistributes wealth.

Lange himself, however, was a Marxist-Leninist. He believed socialism was necessary before communism was achieved, yet he knew beforehand that the Soviet version of socialism was a failure from the beginning.

[renegadoe]

ParEcon does resemble an advanced syndicalist system. But it doesn't incorporate the market as a device for the distribution of commodities - Michael Albert wrote about the creation of "consumer's councils" in each community's area which would gather the information on what was needed, and forward it onto the "producer's councils". By virtue of being in one or the other council, everyone has their needs supplied to them without a price. Thus, parecon lacks a market as "market socialism" has.


The more lassiez faire an economy is the more wealth it generates.

This simply shows a profound lack of understanding about how economics works. Historically, the market has not been laissez-faire since the very early 1900s - today, it is dictated by the supra-national institutions of capital, namely the WTO, the IMF, and the World Bank. Are you going to say that the market today is generating less wealth than in 1900?



Market socialism is not a capitalist-socialist hybrid a la China. The Lange Model proposes a centrally planned system which follows supply-demand to set prices, which could prevent massive shortages. Other models propose a more democratic process within the industries themselves.

This would combine the powers of capitalism with wealth distribution and lead to a much better society.Maybe it's because you're not a communist that you don't understand that the "powers of capitalism" are derived explicitly from the exploitation of wage-labor. You cannot have a market, no matter how "centrally planned" it is (btw - history has shown us how central planning fails; why combine two bad ideas?), without having commodities, and the appropriation of surplus-value from them. If your "revolution" doesn't destroy wage-labor, then your bullshit doesn't belong on this forum.