So...what class do I fit into?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm a self employed fisherman who, along with various other members of the fleet, sell product (salmon, halibut, cod, etc.) to processing companies. I'm in a profit share agreement with them.

I'm also a journeyman welder who works various jobs in this field.

So, am I petite bourgeoisie, proletariat, what? :lol:

[Raúl Duke]

With who are you sharing profit? The members of the fleet?

[Os Cangaceiros]

With who are you sharing profit? The members of the fleet?

No, the processing company.

Even though fishermen are self employed, we still need outlets for our product. That's where processors come in.

I've been on strike twice against them twice, actually; we won the first one, lost the second, largely because of strike breakers. :glare:

There is one fishing cooperative that I've known of, though.

[Everyday Anarchy]

I believe you fall into the proletariat even though you are "self-employed," because you have to sell your labor to the processor. A lot of things nowadays fall into a kind of gray-area (typically between proletariat and petit-bourgeois).

[BIG BROTHER]

If you don't mind Agora, I would like to use this thread to ask what class is my mother in. She is a self-employed house cleaner, but she also has an employee, another woman that she cleans the houses with.

[Lector Malibu]

I'm in the poor as fuck and shit outta luck class

[Die Neue Zeit]

No, the processing company.

Even though fishermen are self employed, we still need outlets for our product. That's where processors come in.

I've been on strike twice against them twice, actually; we won the first one, lost the second, largely because of strike breakers. :glare:

There is one fishing cooperative that I've known of, though.

This is a tough one: were it not for the fact that fishermen like yourselves can go on strike, you'd definitely be in the same class as self-employed, commission-earning salespersons (commissions for their sales akin to "profit-sharing" in the fishing industry): petit-bourgeoisie.

Then again, the bigger question for you to ask is:

Has capitalism really simplified class relations? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/has-capitalism-really-t65831/index.html)

[victim77]

What class am I? My dad is a truck driver for a contracting company, my mom works in retail and I work at a gas station (worst job ever). Would that make me working class or middle class?

[BIG BROTHER]

What class am I? My dad is a truck driver for a contracting company, my mom works in retail and I work at a gas station (worst job ever). Would that make me working class or middle class?

in my humble opinion I would say you are in the proleriat or the working class, because none in your family own any means of production and all you are selling is your labor i.e. driving, selling, attending the gas station.

but that's just what i would say.

[Marsella]

Class has nothing to do with family or lineage!

(Although inheritance laws do make it probable that if your mummy/daddy are rich, you will be too)

[Cubensis]

@ Gas station worker: You are lower class (earn below the "poverty line") and also a proletariat. You own no capital. You don't own the gas station, the food products, or the gasoline. You are a slave to the system!

[Os Cangaceiros]

You are a slave to the system!

:scared:

[renegadoe]

Generally, the criteria are: if the surplus-value of your labor is being appropriated by
another, you are proletarian. The aforementioned "gray area" concerns self-employment. For example, if one is solely self-employed, but does not employ others, one is simply one of the extraordinarily few workers who do receive the full value of your labor. But, if one employs another's labor-power, one becomes petty-bourgeois.

As Martov exclaimed early, if one is emancipated from one's parents, and doesn't rely on them for income, then the concept of "class heritage" isn't really useful.

Few Marxists have compiled very concise yet thorough studies of the development of class relations in the last several decades. Erik Olen Wright did a thirty-year study from the mid 60s to the mid-90s, which resulted in his detailed Class Counts - of which I've only read the abridged Student Edition, which was fascinating in its analysis in the differentiation of employment, taking into account self-employment and positions of authority and management - the two "sticky" points about the 'middle class' that few Marxists have ever taken care to flesh out critically. It's certainly a recommended read.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Class has nothing to do with family or lineage!

(Although inheritance laws do make it probable that if your mummy/daddy are rich, you will be too)

Hmmm....I don't know if it does or doesn't have some sort of an effect. I don't think that if your parents were born to a certain class, you're going to stay in it, by any means.

That being said, I'm a seventh generation fisherman, so...

[apathy maybe]

Amazingly I agree with CdL's comments about who is petit-bourgeois and who is proletariat.

Agora77 you are evil evil petit-bourgeois scum who will always side with either the capitalists or the fascists because of your class nature. And that is the way it is, and that is the way it always shall be.

Of course, just because you are evil and scum, doesn't mean that you are evil and scum. That is, not all petit-bourgeois are actually evil or scum, and I would suggest that you are one of the ones who are not.

And if anyone says something about an idea being a "petit-bourgeois" one, feel free to kick them where it really hurts. Because they most probably don't have any idea what the heck they are talking about.


(So, even though people can often be nicely divided into classes, it doesn't tell us any thing about their interests or opinions. It doesn't tell us if they support a revolution, or if they are racist, or if they think that they are better off under capitalism or anything. That is, in my opinion, a major flaw in trying to use economic classes to try and analysis everything. Too many people try and do it, and they invariably fail.)

[apathy maybe]

I think you missed what I was trying to say. I'll attempt to explain.


So, even though people can often be nicely divided into classes, it doesn't tell us any thing about their interests I wasn't meaning class interests here or opinions. It doesn't tell us if they support a revolution, or if they are racist, or if they think that they are better off under capitalism or anything. That is, in my opinion, a major flaw in trying to use economic classes to try and analysis everything. Too many people try and do it, and they invariably fail.
Basically, just because someone is a worker, doesn't mean that they don't support capitalism, and just because someone is a capitalist, doesn't mean that they oppose revolution (though it is perfectly likely).
This assigning of beliefs to people based only on their Marxist economic class is fundamentally flawed, and is shown best when discussing the "petit-bourgeois". The petit-bourgeois is not a unified class, and different members will have different opinions and even different "class interests" (the bigger small capitalists are more likely to side with the big capitalists in a purely economic, while the smaller small capitalists (such as Agora77) are much more likely to side with the workers).


So,

Yea, class doesn't matter. The bourgeoisie can lead a revolution through which they'll over throw, um... themselves? I never said that. I may well disagree with Marxian class analysis, but I don't think I have ever said that classes don't exist in society or that they weren't important.


We look at things according to class, because class struggle is what drives history forward.Boring.


Because of its position in society, the working class is the only force capable of transforming society in a way that will bring about communism.
More boring.

You don't need to preach at me, I know your dogma. I may not agree with it, but I understand it more then you are ever likely to understand my political opinions.

[mikelepore]

It's not necesssary that every individual can be assigned consciously to a class. Classes are the major and historically important categories that we find in relationships to the means of production, sources of income, social power relationships. This analysis clarifies our understanding of the major forces and effects. It doesn't undo this understanding just because not all individuals are in the major roles or categories.

[Bandito]

What class am I? My dad is a truck driver for a contracting company, my mom works in retail and I work at a gas station (worst job ever). Would that make me working class or middle class?


Class movement from lower class to upper class is really rare.(myth about the "american dream)
I also consider that class has little do do with your mom & dad,but richer follow the rich and poorer follows poor.
When you get a job and start selling your work,than you'll be working class. Now you come from working class background,working class child.