Log in

View Full Version : What extent were the German people responsible for the holocaust?



Sugar Hill Kevis
24th February 2008, 17:49
This is something we've been discussing in history class, I was interested in seeing what people feel here.

Here's part of an essay (minus some waffle at the start) I did on it for class. I was assigned the line of argument (that the German working class bear responsibility), and it doesn't necessarily reflect my opinions... Personally, I think you need to look at it more in the context of the hundreds of thousands of political prisoners who were arrested in the first few years of Nazi rule, a lot of these people who would probably have been at the vanguard of any resistance.

---------------------------

A notion that “eliminationist anti-Semitism” being a prevalent part of German political culture was put forward by Goldhagen. It was contested that this form of anti-semitism had been developing in Germany over a multitude of centuries prior to the 20th Century. German support for anti-Semitism prior to the Third Reich can illustrated by massacres of the Jews from the 11th Century up until the 14th and more relevant to the political culture of the 19th and 20th centuries, the 1819 Hep-Hep riots against German Jews and the “League of Anti-Semites” which was founded in 1879 as the first German group committed to combating the supposed threat that the Jews posed to the state of Germany.

If we view Germany under this historical context, a degree of weight would seemingly be added to Goldhagen’s argument and in this context, 43.9% of Germans threw their support behind an openly anti-Semitic party. However, this still does not constitute a clear majority and it’s within comprehension that many people may not have voted for the NSDAP for anti-Semitic reasons. In spite of this possibility, the people who did not vote Nazi for explicitly anti-Semitic reasons could not claim ignorance; this was a party that was openly and belligerently anti-Semitic and so the voters would be entirely aware of this tenant of the party.

Following the Nazis ascension to dictatorship, Jews were soon subject to persecution. In 1935, the Nuremberg Laws were passed, suspending all many civil liberties for Jewish people. On November 9th 1938 the German people lost their innocence to the violent discrimination against the Jews. During Kristallnacht (“the night of broken glass”), 8,000 Jewish businesses were ransacked, 30,000 Jews taken to concentration camps, 267 synagogues were burnt and over a thousand more ransacked with approximately 2,000-2,500 deaths being either directly or indirectly caused by the events of that night. It is also important to note that it was not only the SS and SA carrying out this persecution but it was met with the involvement of countless German citizens.

As such for the events of Kristallnacht, no German could claim ignorance to what the Jews were to be subject to. A Hanover newspaper further reinforces this notion of awareness in a 1942 edition carrying the headline “the Jews to be exterminated”. Even if the knowledge of Nazi death camps far away in the east were not widespread, knowledge of mass shootings by the Einsatzgruppen was extensive according to historian Ian Kershaw.

The idea of the silent majority is often used in politics to counteract large numbers of demonstrators and vocal detractors of government policy, these people often overshadow the supposed silent majority who are in support of the government. This can be applied to Nazi Germany so far as to take passivity on the part of German citizens as being indicative of them being proponents of Nazi policy against the Jews. Contrary to this, Marxist historian Timothy Mason has asserted that the German working class were in constant opposition to the Nazi regime and as such opposed the holocaust has put it forward. However, Mason’s ideas of resistance seem to be purely rooted in economics as workers would often switch companies in an effort to drive bosses to increase wages and bears little relation to Nazi racial policy. It was not as if the German people were incapable of resistance, although rare there were some fleeting examples of public opposition to Nazi policy primarily the street protests occurring of the T4 euthanasia program. If as such, knowledge of the extent of Jewish persecution was well known as Goldhagen and Kershaw have put forward yet there was no embodiment of public protest and it could be seen that the German people were more incensed by the mentally and physically disabled being euthanised than they were to the genocide of the Jews. Kershaw has attributed passivity on the part of most Germans to corresponding with latent anti-Semitism.

If inaction was not the by-product of underlying anti-Semitism on the part of a nation, what was it the product of? To examine the structure of the Third Reich, following Gleichschaltung nearly every aspect of German society was an organ of the Nazi terror state. It is possible that in such a state of oppression many Germans who were personally opposed to the holocaust were afraid to speak out. However, there were 100,000 Germans involved in orchestrating genocide against the Jews and there was never one recorded instance of someone being executed for refusing to commit killings against the Jews. If not one person amongst the 100,000 involved had the moral standing to refuse atrocities against human beings then a great deal of weight is given to Goldhagens argument that Germans were not only willing but actively revelled in the holocaust.

To conclude, it is clear that the German people must concede responsibility for the atrocities carried out against Jews in the Third Reich. A lack of persecution against even a small minority of people who opposed Nazi racial policy refutes any conception that the manacles of this terror state suppressed any opposition from the German people.

Vahanian
5th March 2008, 22:10
I do belive that some of the people are responceable but think about this. Most countries were anti semetic during the 30's and 40's. and the amerivan knew where the camp were and did NOTHING. and there were people high up in the govermeny who tried to act. Even goering help jew out of the country

Maybe-not
7th March 2008, 07:43
I put near full responsibility on the German people. The argument goes they didn't know about the sad condition, and a lot even pride themselves of having helped jews out of the country. But let me ask this: If they didn't know, then why did the jews need saving? That's just something I'd like to know.

Holden Caulfield
7th March 2008, 08:53
not just the Germans though but all of Imperialist/capitalist states at the time should share the responsibility for allowing Hitler to come to power in the first place,

disregarding the holocaust Hitler should have never of been allowed to engulf the czechs, and this shows the Imperialist/capitalist nations for their true colours, they would sit back and allow atrocities to happen as long as the one comitting them is too weak to attack their own posessions

Invader Zim
7th March 2008, 20:29
I do belive that some of the people are responceable but think about this. Most countries were anti semetic during the 30's and 40's. and the amerivan knew where the camp were and did NOTHING. and there were people high up in the govermeny who tried to act. Even goering help jew out of the country

The criticisms against the American and British governments for failing to 'do something' about the holocaust is an intriguing topic and one I have read a fair bit about. On the one hand you have individuals like William Rubinstein and Michael Smith who argue that the allies could have done little if anything to employ the knowledge of the holocaust, that they had obtained, productively. On the other hand you have Richard Breitman, who used recently declassified intelligence documents, to show that the allied governemnts knew far more about the holocaust than previously though and argued that they should have employed this knowledge to halt, or at least slow, the progress of the holocaust.

I take a somewhat middle of the road view. On the one hand to argue that the allies could not have saved a single jew (Rubinstein) is in my opinion manifestly untrue. On the other hand, arguing that the allies basically broad cast the fact that they had cracked German codes could well have cost the allies the war and almost certainly delayed it; thus causing the holocaust to have gone on longer thus increasing the holocaust grizzly body count.


As for the main question, there have been several rather good books produced on this subject. Personally I would argue that the vast majority of the German people were informed enough about just what the Nazis were doing to have a vast degree of blame for the holocaust. They were not 'Hitler's willing executioners'.

Maybe-not
8th March 2008, 23:09
not just the Germans though but all of Imperialist/capitalist states at the time should share the responsibility for allowing Hitler to come to power in the first place,

disregarding the holocaust Hitler should have never of been allowed to engulf the czechs, and this shows the Imperialist/capitalist nations for their true colours, they would sit back and allow atrocities to happen as long as the one comitting them is too weak to attack their own posessions

Exactly. This could be laid on Stalin too, but he was Batshit-Insane anyway, so no need. Perhaps the same can be said of Modern-Day revolutionaries. Why don't we hear of sabotage action against planes and troops to stop the Invasion of Iraq? Why doesn't anyone fight?



As for the main question, there have been several rather good books produced on this subject. Personally I would argue that the vast majority of the German people were informed enough about just what the Nazis were doing to have a vast degree of blame for the holocaust. They were not 'Hitler's willing executioners'.

Not directly perhaps. But you know what they say about silent consent...

Invader Zim
9th March 2008, 11:16
Sorry, that should read ill informed.

Dros
9th March 2008, 16:33
To conclude, it is clear that the German people must concede responsibility for the atrocities carried out against Jews in the Third Reich. A lack of persecution against even a small minority of people who opposed Nazi racial policy refutes any conception that the manacles of this terror state suppressed any opposition from the German people.

Wait... WHAT?

NO! That argument seems to imply that the masses of the German nation are somehow "worse" than people everywhere, that they knowingly commited the Holocaust. This essay COMPLETELY ignores any kind of Marxist analysis of the material conditions in Weimar and pre-Weimar Germany and how that related to the anti-Semetic ideology prevalent amoungst the Germany ruling class.

Tower of Bebel
9th March 2008, 18:40
Concluding that the Germans - as a people - where responsible would be racist if not for the fact that Germans are no separate race. Playing the blame-game is simply nationalism.
The holocaust was a direct consequence of the raise of fascism and the imperialist war (don't forget, the Endlösung started in 1942, all early experiments with Jews, blacks and the mentaly handicapt were caused by racism or discrimination inherent to the system). No imperialist nation can say it wasn't involved with the succes of fascism and no national bourgeoisie was innocent when it comes to the causes of the war. Therefor blaming the Germans is nationalism used by bourgeoisie of other countries.

RedAnarchist
9th March 2008, 18:43
You also have to remember that many of those who died in the Holocaust were Germans, whether they were Jews, homosexuals, communists, disabled etc. Plus there were resistance groups, and many Germans fled the country before the war.

Gitfiddle Jim
9th March 2008, 21:34
Putting the blame on the Germans or any country is simply Nationalism, as Rakunin said. You have to remember that many Germans died in the death camps as well, whether they be gays, disabled, anti-Nazi, communist or whatever. The blame should be put on organisations such as the Catholic Church, who did not condemn the regime and had a working relationship with Hitler.

RNK
10th March 2008, 18:09
I'd say a large part of the German population, the most fervent supporters (of which there were many), are quite, but not fully, responsible. The ruling classes of the rest of the world are also just as responsible; they only fought Germany because Germany attacked them first.

Labor Shall Rule
11th March 2008, 23:31
Wait... WHAT?

NO! That argument seems to imply that the masses of the German nation are somehow "worse" than people everywhere, that they knowingly commited the Holocaust. This essay COMPLETELY ignores any kind of Marxist analysis of the material conditions in Weimar and pre-Weimar Germany and how that related to the anti-Semetic ideology prevalent amoungst the Germany ruling class.

If you believe that, then why the fuck are you continuing to consider yourself a supporter of RCPUSA? Bob Avakian has taken the position that it was the masses who are at fault for brutal imperialist exploitation. If you are not holding weapons and planting bombs here and there, then you are actively participating in the global capitalist system.

“All this — and the whole experience that is captured with the metaphor of living in the house of Tony Soprano — does come back around to the question of complicity. Now, in this connection I want to say a few things about the mobilization on October 5 (2006) that was called by World Can’t Wait, and the fact that, frankly, in terms of numbers and accordingly in terms of impact, this fell far short of what was needed. Now, as Maoists, we’re not supposed to blame the masses when things don’t go well. But goddamnit — I want to blame the masses a little bit! Not strategically. Ultimately it is our responsibility — it is the responsibility of those who do understand the urgent need for massive opposition and political resistance to this whole course that the Bush regime is driving things on. But in line with, and as a part of, that responsibility, terms have to be presented sharply to people. Someone made the point that we should say to those people who knew about October 5, and who said they agreed with its basic stance and aims but did not come out that day: ‘Shame on you if you sat on your ass on October 5! If you knew about it or had a basis to know about it and you did not make use of this vehicle and help make this vehicle as powerful as possible — shame on you’!”
“I want to say, just for the record, that at times I myself have been acutely disappointed by — and, yes, have cursed in graphic terms — the people in this society who are sitting by and doing nothing in the face of atrocities and horrors committed by their government and in their name…”
Avakian (and whoever else) proposes that the working class is responsible for the crimes of bourgeois regimes that they have little to no control of, which is ultra-leftist at best. The intuition that supports that foggy label is grounded in idealist bourgeois thought, and is not based on a serious materialist analysis of material and historical conditions. When examining political situations, you can play childish blame games, or you can be a social scientist and an historian. To blame the Germans (or Americans and Europeans) for what is going on, would bring nothing new to the international communist movement, and it would also alienate vast sections of their working class.

Dros
12th March 2008, 00:05
If you believe that, then why the fuck are you continuing to consider yourself a supporter of RCPUSA? Bob Avakian has taken the position that it was the masses who are at fault for brutal imperialist exploitation. If you are not holding weapons and planting bombs here and there, then you are actively participating in the global capitalist system.

Errr..... No he doesn't.


Avakian (and whoever else) proposes that the working class is responsible for the crimes of bourgeois regimes that they have little to no control of, which is ultra-leftist at best.

I would say ultra-right but...

And again, Avakian doesn't say that.


The intuition that supports that foggy label is grounded in idealist bourgeois thought, and is not based on a serious materialist analysis of material and historical conditions. When examining political situations, you can play childish blame games, or you can be a social scientist and an historian. To blame the Germans (or Americans and Europeans) for what is going on, would bring nothing new to the international communist movement, and it would also alienate vast sections of their working class.

I agree totally.

Kwisatz Haderach
12th March 2008, 00:15
Lack of resistance does not imply consent, let alone support. Most people in the West today do not actively resist capitalism. Does that make them responsible for capitalism's crimes? Is the working class responsible for the actions of the ruling class every time it is not rising up in revolution?

ern
12th March 2008, 00:43
Those who reject the idea of apportioning blame on the german 'people' as a reflection of bourgeois ideology are right. This blame argument was used as justification for the Allies terror bombing of German civilians etc i.e., they asked for it because they supported Hitler, it is also used to white wash the terror carried out by the Soviet state.
The 'blame' for the rise of Fascism lies at the feet of those forces that crushed the proletariat's revolutionary efforts between 1917-1926. It was democracy that opened the door to the totalitarian form of the state=capitalist war economy that was fascism, and they were able to do this because they had defeated the proletariat.
The racist ideology of the Narzis was of the same ilk as that theorized in the US, Britain etc under the name of eugenics, etc. The Holocaust was the logical conclusion of the insanity of imperialism and decadent capitalism where every thing and every body had to be sacrificed in the name of the defense of national capital. Those who could not be exploited for the war economy were slaughtered. It is this that capitalism and its various defenders seek to hide with the idea of blame: the Holocaust and fascism were expressions of the decaying capitalist system not some aberration of German cultural history

Tower of Bebel
13th March 2008, 16:14
Lack of resistance does not imply consent, let alone support. Most people in the West today do not actively resist capitalism. Does that make them responsible for capitalism's crimes? Is the working class responsible for the actions of the ruling class every time it is not rising up in revolution?


You could say that the traditional defence mechanisms of the working class (like trade unions) were either prohibited or incorporated. This reduced the ability of the working class (togheter with the moral defeat and the ideological offensive of the fascists) to act against this barbarism.