Brendan Hughes

[gilhyle]

I bow my head for a ferocious Irish anti-imperialist militant who died yesterday at the early age of 58, Brendan Hughes. He was a nationalist, not a Marxist, but he fought with incredible personal courage and a resolute commitment to the struggle. His early death is almost certainly due to the long after effects of his leadership of the first Hunger Strike. He looked with authoritative critical directness at the the corrupt compromises into which his former friend Adams led the movement and he was willing to say clearly, if this is what it was for it wasnt worth it !

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Yawn.

[Lector Malibu]

Yawn.

Is it past your bedtime??

[Qwerty Dvorak]

No, but apparently it was past Brendan Hughes'.

[Lector Malibu]

No, but apparently it was past Brendan Hughes'.

Hardy , har , har, So tell me what is your beef with Mr. Hughes to the point that feel you need to be disrespectful , I'm curious

[letsgetfree]

Brendan Hughes (The Dark):
An appreciation John McAnulty
17 February 2008
I first met the Dark when I found myself a victim of the ‘internment by remand’ system being operated by the British in the ‘70s. An involuntary guest of the British in Crumlin Road jail, I was undergoing a medical examination on entry when the doors of the cell were flung open and a wing full of republican prisoners made satirical remarks about my naked rear end. I later discovered that the men in white coats had been sent by Brendan and that my initiation was one of a whole series of activities designed to lift morale on the wing.
Even at this time Brendan was a living legend. He was what the IRA would have liked itself to be: burning with hatred of injustice and class oppression, innocent of any sectarian impulse, utterly fearless and utterly dedicated to protecting his volunteers, pursuing the armed struggle, expelling the British and establishing a united Ireland. It made him officer commanding (O/C) of the Belfast brigade, the leader of the first hunger strike and, uniquely, the only republican ever to openly protest the class exploitation of ex-prisoners by the capitalist republicans who employed them at starvation wages.
One thing was evident. Brendan was dedicated not only to the goal, but to the process. Daring firefights with the British were not activities to be engaged in reluctantly but were embraced with fervour as adding sharpness, vigour and meaning to life. This attitude made him an outstanding guerrilla leader, but left him defenceless when conditions changed.
One other memory of my time in the Crum was an attempt to organise Marxist study circles. The first meetings attracted 40 prisoners, but the republican leadership then instructed members to attend lectures on Irish history and language. There was no malice in this. They saw the talks as a distraction that might cause division in the volunteers. In reality the aversion to politics left the republican fighters at the mercy of the more political elements on the Army Council.
My last meetings with the Dark were a series of conferences and meetings exploring the possibility of a political regroupment where he spoke consistently of the need to revive the struggle. I last heard his voice at a conference in Derry where, clearly a dying man, he spoke over a phone link, urging the republicans to unite politically and rebuild resistance.
What was absent from these last meeting was any explanation of what had gone wrong. For him, the armed struggle had had the capacity to bring victory and he could not understand why his movement had decayed.
That was the tragedy of the Dark and of many young people of his generation. They gave everything to a physical force movement that would in the end fail them. The tradition of Connolly socialism had the sympathy of many of them and part of the tragedy was the inability of socialists to respond adequately to the mass movement that blossomed in the North.
Brendan died with dignity, true to the freedom call that awoke his generation. That is something that will be denied to those, his former comrades, who betrayed him.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Hardy , har , har, So tell me what is your beef with Mr. Hughes to the point that feel you need to be disrespectful , I'm curious
I wouldn't be disrespectful to his family or those close to him, I don't see anything wrong with saying what I said.

The man was not a Marxist, as gilhyle pointed out. Like all Republicans, all he did was sew sectarianism and nationalism in the working class, which ultimately damaged it. And like all Republican "socialists" he hated a large portion of the working class, the Unionist working class, and probably wouldn't have had a problem bombing them.

[Lector Malibu]

I wouldn't be disrespectful to his family or those close to him, I don't see anything wrong with saying what I said.

The man was not a Marxist, as gilhyle pointed out. Like all Republicans, all he did was sew sectarianism and nationalism in the working class, which ultimately damaged it. And like all Republican "socialists" he hated a large portion of the working class, the Unionist working class, and probably wouldn't have had a problem bombing them.

Bobby Sands liked him, he must have not been that bad of a guy.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Bobby Sands liked him, he must have not been that bad of a guy.
You're joking right?

[RedAnarchist]

Bobby Sands liked him, he must have not been that bad of a guy.

So if Bobby Sands liked Margaret Thatcher (I know, its just an example), you would think the same for her as well?

[Lector Malibu]

You're joking right?

Afraid not :)

[Lector Malibu]

So if Bobby Sands liked Margaret Thatcher (I know, its just an example), you would think the same for her as well?

If she was trying to free her people from the six British occupied Irish counties , then yes I guess I could over look some of her other traits:rolleyes:

[Seven Stars]

Yawn.

Show some respect. I love it when trots bash people that actually do something, who just don't sit back and talk of Revolution but actually go out there and do it.

Brendan might not have been a hardcore Marxist, but he did believe in the Socialist Republic, and risked his neck and in the end his life because of his dedication to see Ireland free.

RIP Brendan Ar dheis Dé go raibh sé.

[Die Neue Zeit]

While I show solidarity with the Republican Socialists in this thread (shame to the subscriber of Trotskyist revisionism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/revisionist-trotskyism-revolutionary-t70170/index.html) who posted here), I've got two things:

1) Finally, I figured out gilhyle's background (I thought it was Turkish or something)!
2) More importantly, am I wrong, or is Irish anti-imperialism an anomaly amongst most nation-based anti-imperialist movements in relating extensively to socialist revolution?

[Lector Malibu]

Show some respect. I love it when trots bash people that actually do something, who just don't sit back and talk of Revolution but actually go out there and do it.

Brendan might not have been a hardcore Marxist, but he did believe in the Socialist Republic, and risked his neck and in the end his life because of his dedication to see Ireland free.

RIP Brendan Ar dheis Dé go raibh sé.


Very well said

Tiocfaidh Ár Lá !!!

[Qwerty Dvorak]

If she was trying to free her people from the six British occupied Irish counties , then yes I guess I could over look some of her other traits:rolleyes:
So anyone who opposes British rule i a friend of yours. Okay. Psycho.


Show some respect. I love it when trots bash people that actually do something, who just don't sit back and talk of Revolution but actually go out there and do it.

Brendan might not have been a hardcore Marxist, but he did believe in the Socialist Republic, and risked his neck and in the end his life because of his dedication to see Ireland free.

RIP Brendan Ar dheis Dé go raibh sé.
Sod off. I'm not posting as a Trot but as a rational, sane person who is sick of people blaming all Ireland's problems on the British and arguing that domination by the Irish ruling class is somehow better than domination by the English ruling class. Furthermore I'm sick of these holier-than-thou hyper-nationalist thugs splitting the working class right down the middle by placing the emphasis on nationality as opposed to class.

Oh and please explain to me how Brendan Hughes "did" the revolution.


While I show solidarity with the Republican Socialists in this thread (shame to the subscriber of Trotskyist revisionism who posted here)
Lolz.



2) More importantly, am I wrong, or is Irish anti-imperialism an anomaly amongst most nation-based anti-imperialist movements in relating extensively to socialist revolution?
Unfortunately the strength of the working class in Ireland has traditionally made it a perfect target for those looking to recruit for the nationalist cause.

[Lector Malibu]

So anyone who opposes British rule i a friend of yours. Okay. Psycho.

Your calling me a Psycho and your sitting here spitting all over a man who sacrificed so much for an attempt at your freedom. Now run along I'm sure there's a Ruc meeting some where you can attend silly loyalist person!

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Your calling me a Psycho and your sitting here spitting all over a man who sacrificed so much for an attempt at your freedom. Now run along I'm sure there's a Ruc meeting some where you can attend silly loyalist person!
You have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, I'm not spitting. I'm just not jacking off to his picture either. Secondly, how did he in any way make an attempt for my freedom?

[Lector Malibu]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Really , try me


First of all, I'm not spitting. I'm just not jacking off to his picture either.Hey I don't care what you do. I realize alot of people don't like him cause he branched off from the Irish Republican Army and than went on to what is now referred Provisional IRA. Never the less that man dedicated his life to British withdrawal from Ireland.


Secondly,how did he in any way make an attempt for my freedom?If you can't see that then I can 't help you. I'd suggest you start learning about Irelands history of oppression by the hands of the British. That would be a good start.

[Vanguard1917]

Brendan might not have been a hardcore Marxist, but he did believe in the Socialist Republic, and risked his neck and in the end his life because of his dedication to see Ireland free.

And while some of those nice 'Marxists' in the republican movement (like those in the Stalinist-led Official IRA) were calling for reform of the Six Counties and were refusing to take up arms to drive out the Brits, it was militant republicans like Brendan Hughes and other comrades in the Provisional IRA who were defending - and winning the support of - the nationalist community against the thugs of the British army, the police and Loyalist gangs.

Brendan Hughes is a hero to true republicans and anti-imperialists throughout Ireland and beyond - and with good reason.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Really , try me
Why, you want to wow me with your knowledge? I don't doubt that you have a knowledge of Irish history, congratufuckinglations :rolleyes: what I'm asking you, and what you have failed to address, is how he helped my freedom? Brendan Hughes was born in 1948, he was 1 when Ireland officially became a Republic (though we had effectively been free from direct British rule since 1937). Maybe had he fought during the Rising or the War of Independence, you know, back when Ireland was still an oppressed nation, your claim might have been true. But Ireland is not an oppresed nation any more, not by the British anyway. We have the Republic of Ireland, which is self-governing, and we have Northern Ireland in which the Unionist parties consistently win democratic elections and much of the population supports the Union, or at least isn't bothered opposing it.


Brendan Hughes is a hero to true republicans and anti-imperialists throughout Ireland and beyond - and with good reason.
I'm not a true Republican.

That said, I'm not a Loyalist either, I just think that playing the nationalism card is a bad idea when trying to build a working class movement, especially in the case of Northern Ireland. It's just that I always end up looking like a Loyalist whenever I try to speak rationally with Republicans on the subject because they're all so fucking sensitive about the matter.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ So what do you think about Connolly, then?

[Qwerty Dvorak]

It's been so long since I've read any of his stuff it's hard to have an accurate opinion of him. But I very much respect him, he fought for Republicanism when and where it was actually justified, as the vast vast majority of Irish were strongly Republican at the time, and virtually all of the Unionists belonged to the upper classes. Also, he was an actual Marxist and made valuable contributions to Marxism.

[Lector Malibu]

Why, you want to wow me with your knowledge? I don't doubt that you have a knowledge of Irish history, congratufuckinglations :rolleyes:

Okay fair enough than :cool:


what I'm asking you, and what you have failed to address, is how he helped my freedom? Brendan Hughes was born in 1948, he was 1 when Ireland officially became a Republic (though we had effectively been free from direct British rule since 1937).Oh yeah and the world saw that freedom on January 30th 1972 in the little town of Derry. He tried to get the oppressive British outta Ireland not just for him but generations to come that included you, yes I know your young and live far away from NI and the troubles and yes alot has changed and it doesn't affect you and so on and so on I'm just saying ...



Maybe had he fought during the Rising or the War of Independence, you know, back when Ireland was still an oppressed nation, your claim might have been true. But Ireland is not an oppresed nation any more, not by the British anyway.Than by who?? because alot of IRA and Loyalist violence has gone back and fourth for many years now. Don't tell me that Ireland has been this happy go lucky place and there's never been a problem with the British being there.


We have the Republic of Ireland, which is self-governing, and we have Northern Ireland in which the Unionist parties consistently win democratic elections and much of the population supports the Union, or at least isn't bothered opposing it.

And NI has had rigged elections and the threat of Loyalist violence lurking behind the conner of the polls.


I'm not a true Republican.Figured that , but okay


That said, I'm not a Loyalist either, I just think that playing the nationalism card is a bad idea when trying to build a working class movement, especially in the case of Northern Ireland. It's just that I always end up looking like a Loyalist whenever I try to speak rationally with Republicans on the subject because they're all so fucking sensitive about
the matter.
Fair enough, I actually agree with you on your last point. It is too often the case people think black and white and don't look at the grey. I will say this though, whether you wanna admit it or not The IRA was needed , and though things have changed there's still alot of open wounds.

[PRC-UTE]

I bow my head for a ferocious Irish anti-imperialist militant who died yesterday at the early age of 58, Brendan Hughes. He was a nationalist, not a Marxist, but he fought with incredible personal courage and a resolute commitment to the struggle. His early death is almost certainly due to the long after effects of his leadership of the first Hunger Strike. He looked with authoritative critical directness at the the corrupt compromises into which his former friend Adams led the movement and he was willing to say clearly, if this is what it was for it wasnt worth it !

Brendan Hughes was no nationalist, he was a left republican, combining class struggle and anti-imperialism that was non-sectarian to the core.

He did not criticise Adams' corruptness, (in fact he continued to praise Adams) but Adams leadership in leading republicanism into the cul-de-sac of nationalism and an internal settlement with the British.

[PRC-UTE]

It's been so long since I've read any of his stuff it's hard to have an accurate opinion of him. But I very much respect him, he fought for Republicanism when and where it was actually justified, as the vast vast majority of Irish were strongly Republican at the time, and virtually all of the Unionists belonged to the upper classes. Also, he was an actual Marxist and made valuable contributions to Marxism.

Republicans pre-1921 = good lads

Republicans post-1921 = bad, bad boys and probably sectarian nationalists

This is almost like a religion it's so nonsensical and taken on faith. Free state propaganda at its finest.

[PRC-UTE]

So if Bobby Sands liked Margaret Thatcher (I know, its just an example), you would think the same for her as well?

Good one, taking his/her statement out of context. I'm sure you're proud of your ability to make misleading statements and pass them off as great insights.

He obviously meant the two were close comrades, sharing a bond under exteremely oppressive circumstances.

[PRC-UTE]

That said, I'm not a Loyalist either, I just think that playing the nationalism card is a bad idea when trying to build a working class movement, especially in the case of Northern Ireland. It's just that I always end up looking like a Loyalist whenever I try to speak rationally with Republicans on the subject because they're all so fucking sensitive about the matter.

So fucking sensitive? I love it when someone stirs shit and then plays innocent, it's so fuckin cute. You didn't start this thread with a political criticism, but a spam one-liner. You're little more than a troll.

What your politics really mean is that the nationalist community should accept their second class status and not rock the boat by upsetting the section of the working class that is pro-imperialist - even if pro-imperialist workers are burning them from their homes. I guess we must all wait for the second coming of communism before we can overthrow a sectarian, homophobic, oppressive state of norn iron. Much of the left has taken this line, and so far its worked out really well.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Than by who?? because alot of IRA and Loyalist violence has gone back and fourth for many years now. Don't tell me that Ireland has been this happy go lucky place and there's never been a problem with the British being there.
Ireland is not a happy-go-lucky place by any means, especially not NI. There are serious problems there with sectarianism and racism, that doesn't mean we have to go stoking those problems. We are all oppressed by the ruling class, that is who we should be fighting.


And NI has had rigged elections and the threat of Loyalist violence lurking behind the conner of the polls.
I don't believe that most elections in NI today are rigged. And how serious can any threat of violence be to an election when ballots are strictly private.


Fair enough, I actually agree with you on your last point. It is too often the case people think black and white and don't look at the grey. I will say this though, whether you wanna admit it or not The IRA was needed , and though things have changed there's still alot of open wounds.
It was needed, it's not needed.


Brendan Hughes was no nationalist, he was a left republican, combining class struggle and anti-imperialism that was non-sectarian to the core.
Republicanism is effectively nationalism.


Republicans pre-1921 = good lads

Republicans post-1921 = bad, bad boys and probably sectarian nationalists

This is almost like a religion it's so nonsensical and taken on faith. Free state propaganda at its finest.
There is a difference between a truly oppressed nation and a non-oppressed nation with a gang problem.


So fucking sensitive? I love it when someone stirs shit and then plays innocent, it's so fuckin cute. You didn't start this thread with a political criticism, but a spam one-liner. You're little more than a troll.
Admittedly I was stirring shit, that doesn't mean that certain Republicans aren't being over-sensitive. For example the guy who told me to run along to an RUC meeting and called me a "silly loyalist".




What your politics really mean is that the nationalist community should accept their second class status and not rock the boat by upsetting the section of the working class that is pro-imperialist - even if pro-imperialist workers are burning them from their homes. I guess we must all wait for the second coming of communism before we can overthrow a sectarian, homophobic, oppressive state of norn iron. Much of the left has taken this line, and so far its worked out really well.
So all Unionist workers burn the good, innocent Republican working class from their homes? Well why don't we just pre-empt the violence and throw them all in jail then? :rolleyes:

[Lector Malibu]

Admittedly I was stirring shit, that doesn't mean that certain Republicans aren't being over-sensitive. For example the guy who told me to run along to an RUC meeting and called me a "silly loyalist".

Oh come on man that was good! I laughed my ass off as I pictured you throwing your computer out the window :lol: all in good fun though ;)

[PRC-UTE]

So all Unionist workers burn the good, innocent Republican working class from their homes? Well why don't we just pre-empt the violence and throw them all in jail then? :rolleyes:

Stupid fucking leading question.

How bout instead we support the right of workers to defend their homes and lives from monarchists death squads and at the same time work patiently in interface areas to heal divisions in the class as the IRSP and left republicans like Hughes do/did all the time? I don't know, kind of a side with the most oppressed section of the working class while not bowing to reactionaries kinda thing.

Had you read like a bit of Connolly I wouldn't have to explain this to a "communist" like yourself.

[Seven Stars]

Republicanism is effectively nationalism.

No, not at all. Republicanism believes in the establishment of a 32 county Workers' Republic. Nationalism just wants a united Ireland by non-violent means only.

[Lector Malibu]

Ireland is not a happy-go-lucky place by any means, especially not NI. There are serious problems there with sectarianism and racism, that doesn't mean we have to go stoking those problems. We are all oppressed by the ruling class, that is who we should be fighting.

And in this case , that ruling class is.........



I don't believe that most elections in NI today are rigged. And how serious can any threat of violence be to an election when ballots are strictly private.Well wait a minute, a few post up you were telling me that things were okay yet here you admitted to rigged polls , witch is it ?? The threat of loyalist violence is still an issue it hasn't gone away.

Your quote from earlier:


Brendan Hughes was born in 1948, he was 1 when Ireland officially became a Republic (though we had effectively been free from direct British rule since 1937). Maybe had he fought during the Rising or the War of Independence, you know, back when Ireland was still an oppressed nation, your claim might have been true. But Ireland is not an oppresed nation any more, not by the British anyway.

than:


It was needed, it's not needed.
So tell me than why the change in tune? Now you admit the IRA was needed. If as you claim the British weren't oppressive why would you state they were needed??They are still very much needed as long as civil rights are denied and the British occupy the six counties they are needed.



Republicanism is effectively nationalism.apples and oranges



There is a difference between a truly oppressed nation and a non-oppressed nation with a gang problem.I'd hardy say over 800 years of British dominance and oppression chalks out to a gang problem.

[coda]

The Irish struggle is very much a class struggle.

thanks for posting gilhyle. It's the first i've heard about it.

A salute to The Dark.

[PRC-UTE]

Here's a surprisingly good article on the Dark.


A life dedicated to the IRA and a broken heart

(by Suzanne Breen, Sunday Tribune)

From his flat high in Divis Tower on the Falls Road, Brendan Hughes looked down on
the city he bombed. He pointed to a car hire firm, owned by a wealthy unionist
businessman in the 1970s, and one of the IRA's prime commercial targets.
"We bombed that place so many times, yet he kept re-opening it. I respected him for
not giving up," said Hughes. In the end, Hughes' heart was broken by the belief that
the leadership of the movement he served for three decades had given up the goals he
still cherished.
Visiting the former Belfast Brigade OC in the tiny, threadbare flat where he spent
his last years was always an emotional experience. The war, and the peace, had left
him with indelible physical and mental scars. A slight figure in a Che Guevara
t-shirt, he chain-smoked and drank to ease the pain of what he called "the
sell-out", but it never really worked.
As I'd leave his flat, he'd hand me pages of thoughts he'd scribbled down on Sinn
Féin, poverty in republican areas, the Middle East conflict, and Catholic Church
child abuse scandals. An atheist, he wanted the Church – not the IRA – disbanded.
Nicknamed 'the Dark', Hughes had been a ruthlessly committed paramilitary. His gun
battles with the British entered republican folklore. Yet he was a complex man,
displaying a compassion often missing in republican ranks.
Once, he'd a chance to kill a young British soldier in Leeson Street. The terrified
soldier cried for his mother: "I stood over him with a .45 aimed at his head. I
could have pulled the trigger and sent him to eternity. But morally and emotionally,
I wasn't able to end his life. He was a mere child, so frightened."
Later, Hughes was haunted by the faces of IRA colleagues whom, he believed, had died
for nothing. He'd spend days crying in his flat. A photo hung on the wall of Hughes
in Long Kesh, with his best friend, Gerry Adams, arms around each other. "I loved
him. I'd have taken a bullet for Gerry. I probably should have put one in him,"
Hughes said.
He accused the leadership of abandoning republicanism for "personal power" and said
the GFA (Good Friday Agreement) stood for 'got f**k all'. He'd developed left-wing
politics as a teenage merchant seaman. Entering African ports, he was appalled by
the poverty he saw. He gave boxes of the ship's supplies to locals.
He joined the IRA in 1969 and was jailed in 1973. He soon escaped, rented a house in
the affluent Malone Road, dyed his hair, and donned a suit and tie. He became
businessman Arthur McAllister, travelling around Belfast in disguise, coordinating
the IRA campaign.
Eventually, his cover was blown. He spent 13 years in jail and 53 days on
hunger-strike. On release, he rejoined the IRA. He worked for internal security but
became suspicious of the 'department' which, it has since been revealed, included
high-placed British agents.
His first clash with the leadership came when he complained of the £20 a day wages
paid to ex-prisoners by a large west Belfast building contractor. An Official IRA
member, shocked to see 'the Dark' carrying bricks and sweating in a ditch for a
pittance, was told by the boss: "He's cheaper than a digger."
When Hughes tried to organise a strike, he was offered £25 a day on condition he not
tell the others. "I told (the boss) to stick it up his arse and I never went back. I
wrote an article about if for Republican News but it was censored."
His wife had become involved with another man when he was in jail. Other prisoners
urged him to give her a hard time. Hughes apologised to her for "always having put
the movement first", and told her to be happy.
While others of his rank secured holiday homes and businesses after the IRA
ceasefire, Hughes survived on disability allowance. Just last month, he was left
without heating until another ex-prisoner lent him an electric fire.
He craved solitude, visiting the pub in the quiet of early afternoon, and coming
home to watch Channel Four's 'Deal or No Deal'. Prison had left him with arthritis.
He was prone to chest infections and started to go blind. He didn't eat well and
neglected to take his medication. Political disillusionment had weakened his will to
live.
.In 1995, he was approached by army council member, Brian Keenan, who expressed
discontentment with Adams and McGuinness and asked for help in devising a new
military strategy. Hughes was interested but thought it a false approach to have him
reveal his hand.
While he remained against the peace process, he came to believe all opposition
should be peaceful and 'armed struggle' was pointless. Despite his militancy,
Hughes' outlook wasn't narrow. He was chuffed when, years after jail, a Protestant
prison officer tracked him to Divis. They went for a drink.
Two years ago, he visited Cuba to see the Sierra Maestra where Che had fought. He
loved the locals and was angry the authorities barred them from hotels reserved for
Westerners. In solidarity, he refused to enter.
He died, aged 59, after total organ failure. His ashes will be scattered on the
Cooley Mountains, his parents' grave, and the Falls Road IRA garden of remembrance.
The last of the writings he gave me conveyed his inner torment: "I go to bed in
pain, I wake in the middle of the night in pain, I get up in pain. What the f**k was
it all about?" February 24, 2008

[Redmau5]

While I show solidarity with the Republican Socialists in this thread (shame to the subscriber of Trotskyist revisionism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revisionist-trotskyism-revolutionary-t70170/index.html) who posted here)

I'm a Trotskyist and I attended Brendan Hughes' funeral, so leave your 'Trotskyist revisionism' bullshit at the door.


). Maybe had he fought during the Rising or the War of Independence, you know, back when Ireland was still an oppressed nation, your claim might have been true. But Ireland is not an oppresed nation any more, not by the British anyway.Oh, I forgot that 'Ireland' consisted of 26 counties.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

How bout instead we support the right of workers to defend their homes and lives from monarchists death squads and at the same time work patiently in interface areas to heal divisions in the class as the IRSP and left republicans like Hughes do/did all the time? I don't know, kind of a side with the most oppressed section of the working class while not bowing to reactionaries kinda thing.
What good is "siding with the most oppressed section of the working class" (by the way, is there any proof that Catholics/Republicans as a whole are still oppressed any more than Unionist workers?) when all you really want to do is reverse the roles and oppress the other half? This is effectively what you would be doing if you subjected Unionist workers in Northern Ireland to Irish rule - at least, that's the logical conclusion if you think that Republican workers are any more "oppressed" than Unionist workers because of British rule.

If Republican workers are still actually discriminated against and oppressed in any material way then obviously it is right to side with them, and I do. But the answer is not to replace British rule with Irish rule, that wouldn't achieve anything it would only stir up hyper-nationalist sentiments amongst both sides and further divide the working class.


Had you read like a bit of Connolly I wouldn't have to explain this to a "communist" like yourself.
Chill the fuck out, your hyper-sensitivity is not fit for this discussion. (And yes, I admit, neither were my original comments. Sorry. Now let's move on.)

As I said it's been a while since I read any Connolly.


No, not at all. Republicanism believes in the establishment of a 32 county Workers' Republic. Nationalism just wants a united Ireland by non-violent means only.
I don't think it's accurate to say that nationalism is distinct from Republicanism because it's non-violent. Nationalism is a reactionary force in society, and I simply do not accept that Republicanism is completely devoid of any nationalist sentiment.


And in this case , that ruling class is.........
The bourgeoisie, do I really need to tell you that?


Well wait a minute, a few post up you were telling me that things were okay yet here you admitted to rigged polls , witch is it ?? The threat of loyalist violence is still an issue it hasn't gone away.
Actually I specifically did not admit to rigged polls. I am not an expert on the electoral history of NI, there may have been rigged polls in the past, whatever. But I do think that if the Loyalists were rigging polls today the Republicans would find out and it would be all over the news. I haven't seen any such story.

And my point about the threat of violence was that it is hard to effectively threaten someone into voting for you when there is no way to tell how they voted. This is how the introduction of the secret ballot system via the Ballot Act of 1872 greatly helped the Land League in Ireland, as landowners could no longer coerce their tenants into voting for a particular candidate in general elections.


So tell me than why the change in tune? Now you admit the IRA was needed. If as you claim the British weren't oppressive why would you state they were needed??They are still very much needed as long as civil rights are denied and the British occupy the six counties they are needed.

Perhaps it would have been better to say that the IRB were needed. What I meant was that the situation is drastically different now than it was back in the early 20th century. Back then only a stark minority consisting of aristocrats and land-owners supported British rule in Ireland. Today, a massive portion of the working class also supports British rule (in NI). So it's no longer a case of lower classes v upper classes, but rather of lower and upper classes v lower and upper classes. A struggle of that nature just isn't worth fighting for, the working class as a whole stands to gain nothing and lose so much.


Here's a surprisingly good article on the Dark.
That is a very good article. I don't deny that he was a very easy man to look up to. There are parts of his character and even his work that I respect, don't get me wrong. But ultimately I disagree that Republicanism is a progressive force.

[Lector Malibu]

Chill the fuck out, your hyper-sensitivity is not fit for this discussion. (And yes, I admit, neither were my original comments. Sorry. Now let's move on.)

Fair enough but don't you think for a minute I'm gonna let you run your Jaffa Cake filled mouth about the IRA. Now if you want to leave them out fine. Just don't try and paint this picture that Ireland is the land of the free in the six counties that's a truckload of cow dung and you know it.


Actually I specifically did not admit to rigged polls. I am not an expert on the electoral history of NI, there may have been rigged polls in the past, whatever. But I do think that if the Loyalists were rigging polls today the Republicans would find out and it would be all over the news. I haven't seen any such story.Your words:



I don't believe that most elections in NI today are rigged.

Again an inconsistent answer You did admit to rigged polls , though you said most weren't . That still leaves SOME rigged polls and some is far too much!


And my point about the threat of violence was that it is hard to effectively threaten someone into voting for you when there is no way to tell how they voted. This is how the introduction of the secret ballot system via the Ballot Act of 1872 greatly helped the Land League in Ireland, as landowners could no longer coerce their tenants into voting for a particular candidate in general elections.Bullshit , flat out!



Perhaps it would have been better to say that the IRB were needed. What I meant was that the situation is drastically different now than it was back in the early 20th century. Back then only a stark minority consisting of aristocrats and land-owners supported British rule in Ireland. Today, a massive portion of the working class also supports British rule (in NI). So it's no longer a case of lower classes v upper classes, but rather of lower and upper classes v lower and upper classes. A struggle of that nature just isn't worth fighting for, the working class as a whole stands to gain nothing and lose so much.Your absolute refusal to admit there were problems in Ireland outside of the turn of the century is beyond sickening. Tell that to the mothers of the sons that were gunned down by first para on Bloody Sunday.



That is a very good article. I don't deny that he was a very easy man to look up to. There are parts of his character and even his work that I respect, don't get me wrong. But ultimately I disagree that Republicanism is a progressive force.But you thought you come and run your mouth and start shit just to show how much you respected the man

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Fair enough but don't you think for a minute I'm gonna let you run your Jaffa Cake filled mouth about the IRA. Now if you want to leave them out fine. Just don't try and paint this picture that Ireland is the land of the free in the six counties that's a truckload of cow dung and you know it.
I never said anywhere is the land of the free. No land is free, but I blame capitalism, not Britain.


Again an inconsistent answer You did admit to rigged polls , though you said most weren't . That still leaves SOME rigged polls and some is far too much!
You are really over-analysing my words. I never admitted to rigged polls, I said I didn't believe that most were rigged. I never said I did believe that some were rigged. And I don't, unless you can prove otherwise.


Bullshit , flat out!
If you say so...


Your absolute refusal to admit there were problems in Ireland outside of the turn of the century is beyond sickening. Tell that to the mothers of the sons that were gunned down by first para on Bloody Sunday.

When the fuck did I say that there were no problems in Ireland? Bloody Sunday was an awful thing to happen and I do not for one second defend it. Nor do I defend the Omagh bombing though. The violence related to Northern Ireland in recent decades has been appalling and devastating in terms of human life, and in the end it was the working class who lost out the most due to aggression on both sides.


But you thought you come and run your mouth and start shit just to show how much you respected the man
What are you hoping to achieve with stupid smack-talk like this?

[Lector Malibu]

I never said anywhere is the land of the free. No land is free, but I blame capitalism, not Britain.

I'm sure you do . How do you sleep at night I wonder



You are really over-analysing my words. I never admitted to rigged polls, I said I didn't believe that most were rigged. I never said I did believe that some were rigged. And I don't, unless you can prove otherwise.

Your quotes have been posted as they were stated word for word. You are back peddling flat out.



If you say so...

What is written in a history book very seldom depicts what actually has occurred



When the fuck did I say that there were no problems in Ireland? Bloody Sunday was an awful thing to happen and I do not for one second defend it. Nor do I defend the Omagh bombing though. The violence related to Northern Ireland in recent decades has been appalling and devastating in terms of human life, and in the end it was the working class who lost out the most due to aggression on both sides.

Well whatever. And just like the IRA the provisional IRA tried to defend Irish civil rights and liberty's during a very difficult time. They deserve to be recognized for doing such!.



What are you hoping to achieve with stupid smack-talk like this?

Smack talk?? Now that's funny really. Smack talk is American slang for when someone says they can do something they can't back up. If you don't think I can argue for Irish freedom I'm telling you right now you better pack a lunch cause we are going to be here for a long time:lol:

Have A Nice Day!

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Your quotes have been posted as they were stated word for word. You are back peddling flat out.
I'm not back-peddling, I am elaborating on what I said. I was being overly cautious in my first statement. You are avoiding the issue


What is written in a history book very seldom depicts what actually has occurred
Explain to me how the Loyalists find out who voted for and against the Union.


Well whatever. And just like the IRA the provisional IRA tried to defend Irish civil rights and liberty's during a very difficult time. They deserve to be recognized for doing such!.
You completely ignored the issue. That is that crimes against the working class were committed by both sides of the conflict. The IRA may have promoted Irish civil rights and that's all well and good but that's not their legacy, nor is it their purpose.


Smack talk?? Now that's funny really. Smack talk is American slang for when someone says they can do something they can't back up. If you don't think I can argue for Irish freedom I'm telling you right now you better pack a lunch cause we are going to be here for a long time
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=smack+talk

[Lector Malibu]

I'm not back-peddling, I am elaborating on what I said. I was being overly cautious in my first statement. You are avoiding the issue

I have not avoided anything that has pertained to your deification on Irish freedom fighters and quite frankly you have taken it to a level to that is all I'm interested in at this point. If you don't wanna argue about the IRA just say so and we will leave it at that.



You completely ignored the issue. That is that crimes against the working class were committed by both sides of the conflict. The IRA may have promoted Irish civil rights and that's all well and good but that's not their legacy, nor is it their purpose.The legacy of The Irish Republican Army is ending oppression by by the British first and foremost. To say that workers didn't get caught in the crossfire I'm not going to deny, but to say they weren't interested in Irish freedom and civil rights or their legacy was not of that is a lie, flat out.




http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=smack+talk

Dude I'm American , I know dam well what smack talk means , yes your little internet link was correct and so wasn't my definition . Don't tell me what my own words mean


Oh and your silly question about the polls , I'm not sure but they find out some how don't they????

[coda]

<<That is that crimes against the working class were committed by both sides of the conflict.>

That doesn't make sense. The IRA were/are the working class --aside from the current Sinn Fein British operatives. And as a side note: Sinn Fein and the Army Council sold the movement out, Not the working class volunteer freedom fighters.

[PRC-UTE]

What good is "siding with the most oppressed section of the working class"

oh my.



(by the way, is there any proof that Catholics/Republicans as a whole are still oppressed any more than Unionist workers?)

In nearly every measurable way.



when all you really want to do is reverse the roles and oppress the other half? This is effectively what you would be doing if you subjected Unionist workers in Northern Ireland to Irish rule - at least, that's the logical conclusion if you think that Republican workers are any more "oppressed" than Unionist workers because of British rule.

No, it's not the logical outcome. This is like saying that if you side with the super-exploited immigrant workers in America that you are anti-native. This is circular logic. We have attracted many protestants to our organisation. A large number of our fallen comrades from the IRSM ROH are from Protestant backgrounds. I couldn't tell you how many times I've talked to protestant socialists who've wanted to join the irps but couldn't out of fear of what loyalists would do to em. there's even several threads on this site talking about that subject. We are NOT a sectarian nationalist group, now matter how many times trendy lefties say so.



If Republican workers are still actually discriminated against and oppressed in any material way then obviously it is right to side with them, and I do. But the answer is not to replace British rule with Irish rule, that wouldn't achieve anything it would only stir up hyper-nationalist sentiments amongst both sides and further divide the working class.

We're for a 32-county workers' republic, so your comment here is misdirected.



Chill the fuck out, your hyper-sensitivity is not fit for this discussion. (And yes, I admit, neither were my original comments. Sorry. Now let's move on.)

dún do chlab.



As I said it's been a while since I read any Connolly.


And you obviously understood fa of it.

[Redmau5]

<<That is that crimes against the working class were committed by both sides of the conflict.>

That doesn't make sense.

I'm afraid it does. Just because the vast majority of IRA volunteers were working-class doesn't mean they were incapable of committing crimes against working-class protestants.

[coda]

<<I'm afraid it does. Just because the vast majority of IRA volunteers were working-class doesn't mean they were incapable of committing crimes against working-class protestants.>>

within the context of a class war, against the allys of a foreign imperial ruling class-- not as common criminal element-- hence, the hungerstrike.

[Redmau5]

<<I'm afraid it does. Just because the vast majority of IRA volunteers were working-class doesn't mean they were incapable of committing crimes against working-class protestants.>>

within the context of a class war -- not as common criminal element-- hence, the hungerstrike.

Many volunteers would disagree with you that the war was fought within the context of 'class war'.

[coda]

not any of the ones i know

[Lector Malibu]

Screw The Orange Order Rawwwwwww!