Redefining the far left - libertarian socialism

[supernaltempest]

Is it a general consensus that the schools of thoughts that make up libertarian socialism accurately defines what the far left stands for?

Or is there still a discrepancy between the schools under libertarian socialism and other "far left" schools, namely authoritarian Marxism?

I ask because I feel that the far left should be concretely defined for future revolutionaries and leftists.

[The Douche]

How do you, we, or anybody else decide what the "left stands for". In my mind the revolutionary left stands for the liberation of the working class. Not for one set of political ideas.

Are you asking if people still adhere to ideas other than those which typically fall under the annoyingly vague and misleading title of "libertarian socialism"? I would like you to define what you mean by both, liberatian socialism, and "authoritarian marxism", seeing as both have the same end in mind.

The left will never be concretely defined, the fluidity of ideas is what makes the left vibrant and relevant. I value theoretical positions which I disagree with because I feel they represent an important balance to my own ideas and they can sometimes make valid critiscisms. For instance, leninists can value anarchist critiques and it encourages them to think harder and look further into thier own ideas, and vice versa.

[Forward Union]

Is it a general consensus that the schools of thoughts that make up libertarian socialism accurately defines what the far left stands for?

By "left" we evoke the old French parliament, where those on the left of the king would raise the concerns of the common people, and the right would raise concerns of management, property, finance etc.

So the left generally stands for the interests of the people over all else. But as that definition is astoundingly vague and meaningless, numerous ideas and ideologies could be said to uphold "what the far left stands for"

Libertarian Socialism is a bit of a catch-phrase with no meaning.

So let's go to Libertarian Communism, which actually has meaning. Libertarian communism has many schools of thought, such as Anarchist-Communism, Anarcho-Syndicalism, Council-communism. The only thing that ties them together under the broader heading is their opposition to the use of the state in the struggle for workers power.

Authorotarian Communism (Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Maoism) believes in the use of the state, and this split between these two traditions has been unbridgable since it first manifested in the first international.

Not only have the two sides never practically worked together for very long, but they have at every oppertunity attempted to liquidate eachother, from Russia, to Spain, to the present day. Their intermediate goals are complely contrary to eachother.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ That sectarianism is something that I'm perfectly OK with. :)

[And wonder why the "authoritarians" - including revolutionary Marxists - try to liquidate the "libertarians"? It's because the latter group always attempts to liquidate the former first.]

[supernaltempest]

OK, but since the far left is split among the libertarian mode of thought and the authoritarian mode of thought, what is to be done?


Isn't it more than just the means of getting to the final goal? The split seems to suggest that either the libertarians or the authoritarians are right. How do we go about deciding which mode of thought is correct?

[Forward Union]

OK, but since the far left is split among the libertarian mode of thought and the authoritarian mode of thought, what is to be done?

Urm nothing?



^^^ That sectarianism is something that I'm perfectly OK with. :)


I wouldn't really call it sectarian. We're not the same movement. Authorotarians have historically crushed workers democracy, whereas libertarians have fought tooth and nail to maintain it.


[And wonder why the "authoritarians" - including revolutionary Marxists - try to liquidate the "libertarians"? It's because the latter group always attempts to liquidate the former first.]

No, historically the opposite.

[Bilan]

OK, but since the far left is split among the libertarian mode of thought and the authoritarian mode of thought, what is to be done?


Nothing. That dichotomy is unavoidable.



Isn't it more than just the means of getting to the final goal? The split seems to suggest that either the libertarians or the authoritarians are right. How do we go about deciding which mode of thought is correct?


The means are important. Can we betray our principles, completely and utterly, betray the workers, under a guise of "We're working on it"? No, of course not.
Either the working class asserts power, and exercises it, or it doesn't.

We discover who is right through practice.

[Colonello Buendia]

I have generally noticed that Authoritarian societies seem to suffer alot more than those people in a Libertarian societies, in the more authoritarian regimes, there is much dissent while in libertarina ones there really,really isn't

[Forward Union]

To clarify, this is not really the case. We "authoritarians" (:laugh:)

What's funny mate? Your universally defined as "authorotarian communists" live with it.

Furthermore, all you go on to do is explain your justifications for maintaining the state. You're adding nothing new to the discussion. Anarchists believe that all power should lay in the democratic "soviets" and not in a minority, if anything this prevens the continuous and catastrophic failures of Leninism that we've seen over the last 80s.

[John Rap Brown]

StateSUx

What Libertarian societies are you talking about, Somalia? Parts of Iraq, the Afghani/Pakistan Border??

Since you made such an astute observation, I was wondering exactly which 'libertarian societies' and 'authoritarian societies' you were observing and basing your judgments on.

[Forward Union]

What Libertarian societies are you talking about, Somalia? Parts of Iraq, the Afghani/Pakistan Border??.

There are all capitalist economic regions....

Some examples of Libertarian communist societes could be Catalonia, Spain 1936 Ukraine, 1917 and parts of N.Korea in 1920