Who was the real revisionist: Kautsky or Bernstein?

[Die Neue Zeit]

[This pertains to history, and yet this pertains to theory, so I don't know which forum is the perfect host for this thread.]

Perhaps I'm wrong in dismissing Bernstein as a mere reformist, but looking back with hindsight, I'm starting to question the original connotation of the word "revisionist" in its application to his blatantly reformist idealism.

Since the chasm between revolutionary and reformist politics is thankfully greater than it was during his time (to the point where "reformism" can be synonymous with "economism"), I have a question: should the word "revisionist" now be used with more discretion? With such discretion, would Kautskyism count as being "revisionist"?



P.S. - If it's possible in the future, some comrade(s) should turn Kautsky's thinking right side up like Marx did with Hegel. A proper understanding (and perhaps even mastery) of the merger formula outlined in "The Class Struggle" is essential for any revolutionary Marxist, but notions like policy-based imperialism (not so much "ultra-imperialism," given the closeness of Cold-War American hegemony in the West to Kautsky's "ultra-imperialism"), "apocalyptic predestinationism" (every activity of the German SPD was legal, precisely because Kautsky thought that capitalism was doomed to collapse on the horizon, such that revolutionary activity wasn't needed) and Marxism having an "integral world-outlook" need to be dumped (the most extreme form of this being Lysenko "science").

[Tower of Bebel]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/may/09.htm#bk1


The “Left Communists” failed to understand these unquestionable truths, which, of course, a “Left Socialist-Revolutionary”, who cannot connect any ideas on political economy in his head in general, will never understand, but which every Marxist must admit. It is not even worth while arguing with a Left Socialist-Revolutionary. It is enough to point to him as a “repulsive example” of a windbag. But the “Left Communists” must be argued with because it is Marxists who are making a mistake, and an analysis of their mistake will help the working class to find the true road.

Maybe revisionism should be defined as marxism "with mistakes" and reformism as... well reformism is'nt marxism at all.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ But "dogmatists" (left-communist sectarians in respect to non-Trotskyist and non-Maoist sectarianism) aren't exactly revisionists. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[Tower of Bebel]

Then what are you talking about? :confused: Maybe I should learn more about Kautsky as a renegate to know what you're referring to.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Perhaps you're right. Given the updated material in my user group concerning "apocalyptic predestinationism," this affected the left-communists as much as it did Kautsky, Trotsky, and Stalin.

In regards to Kautsky himself, I was referring to "pre-renegade" Kautsky the centrist, who made sufficient mistakes already. For example, every activity of the German SPD was legal, precisely because Kautsky thought that capitalism was doomed to collapse on the horizon, such that revolutionary activity wasn't needed.

[gilhyle]

I think Bernstein was a classic revisionist. In his own mind he continued to adhere to key elements of Marx's view. Kautsky was mostly a 'centrist' and the activity of revisionism is less explicitly part of his approach, although it was clear to Lenin that there was significant covert revisions in his later theory.

[Red Flag Rising]

Kautsky, clearly Kautsky.