Israeli MP blames quakes on gays [Archive]

ComradeR

21st February 2008, 06:46

Israeli MP blames quakes on gays

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44440000/jpg/_44440553_gays.jpg
Ultra-Orthodox Jews protest in Jerusalem

An Israeli MP has blamed parliament's tolerance of gays for earthquakes that have rocked the Holy Land recently. Shlomo Benizri, of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish Shas Party, said the tremors had been caused by lawmaking that gave "legitimacy to sodomy".
Israel decriminalised homosexuality in 1988 and has since passed several laws recognising gay rights.
Two earthquakes shook the region last week and a further four struck in November and December.
Adoption
Mr Benizri made his comments while addressing a committee of the Israeli parliament, or Knesset, about the country's readiness for earthquakes.
He called on lawmakers to stop "passing legislation on how to encourage homosexual activity in the state of Israel, which anyway brings about earthquakes".
Israeli court rulings in recent years have granted inheritance rights to gay couples and recognised same-sex marriages performed abroad.
Last week, Israel's attorney general ruled same-sex couples could adopt.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7255657.stm
So gays are responsible for earthquakes huh? I swear the stupidity of the religious right never ceases to amaze me.:glare:

Devrim

21st February 2008, 07:03

Neither does that of the religious 'left'. I can remember an earthquake in Turkey being blamed on the army's co-operation with Israel.
Devrim

Jazzratt

21st February 2008, 10:44

Someone should tell this guy about plate tectonics.

Black Dagger

21st February 2008, 13:45

But 'god' controls the plates ;)

He controls everything!!!:scared:

Lector Malibu

21st February 2008, 14:18

I don't know why Israel just doesn't change their flag to the swastika at this point.

Cencus

21st February 2008, 14:29

Must be some fucking good acid in Israel for someone to make that leap in logic.

Black Dagger

21st February 2008, 15:41

I don't know why Israel just doesn't change their flag to the swastika at this point.

I don't get it.

Lector Malibu

21st February 2008, 16:44

I don't get it.

I 'm not to hip to their treatment of the Palestinian people. They were asked to leave in 1967 (UN242) They have yet to comply. They are an abusive illegal occupational force dominating the Palestinian people through violence and oppression, U.S. backed, go figure . So my remark was to touch on the notion that like the Nazi's pillaged and terrorized Israel at this point is behaving in similar fashion.

Black Dagger

21st February 2008, 17:34

ArabRASH

21st February 2008, 17:50

I don't know why Israel just doesn't change their flag to the swastika at this point.

They fucking should. Fucking Israelis.

Cencus

21st February 2008, 17:53

Winter

21st February 2008, 18:27

But the Nazi's rounded up their undesireables and forced them into slavery or murdered them, Israel does neither - I can understand the dramatic effect of comparing the state of Israeli to Nazi germany but it's really not apt in any meaningful sense.

Israel is doing the same thing. Palestinians are rounded up in certain zones. There has been stories about Palestinian cancer patients unable to go to the other zone for chemotherapy, leaving them to die. Palestinian children have to worry about getting shot or bombed on a daily basis on there way to school. Genocide is taking place there, it's just not as blatant.

Lector Malibu

21st February 2008, 19:24

This crap has come out of a religious extremist, if the same thing was said by a member of another religion in another country would you be calling for their country's flag to be changed to a swastika too?

Yes, I don't stand injustice no matter where your from. Thing is though in this case it's not just "religious extremist" that are to blame The bottom line is that The IDF has abused, maimed, and persecuted many , many, people all with the blessings of the good old USA. Matter a fact I say I view situation similar to the struggle for freedom of oppression of the Irish in Northern Ireland by the hands of the British.

Lector Malibu

21st February 2008, 19:31

But the Nazi's rounded up their undesireables and forced them into slavery or murdered them, Israel does neither - I can understand the dramatic effect of comparing the state of Israeli to Nazi germany but it's really not apt in any meaningful sense.

No, they just beat em in the street and if they try and fight back they bomb and shoot them. I'm really not seeing much of a difference ...

Neutrino

21st February 2008, 20:18

I don't know why Israel just doesn't change their flag to the swastika at this point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Israel

ArabRASH

21st February 2008, 20:24

BuyOurEverything

21st February 2008, 20:38

Yes, I don't stand injustice no matter where your from. Thing is though in this case it's not just "religious extremist" that are to blame The bottom line is that The IDF has abused, maimed, and persecuted many , many, people all with the blessings of the good old USA.Wow, that is so not the topic of this discussion.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/James/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-6.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/James/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-7.jpgMatter a fact I say I view situation similar to the struggle for freedom of oppression of the Irish in Northern Ireland by the hands of the British.Why aren't you advocating changing the British flag to a Nazi flag?

Seriously, why is it that we can't have any discussion about Israel that doesn't just descend into "omg there lk naziss!!1". First of all, to equate any and all forms of oppression with the holocaust is ludicrous. But more importantly, Israel is not some unitary entity, there's plenty of contradictions and internal dynamics that are worth discussing. It's occupation of Palestine is horrific, yes, and is worthy of much discussion, but there's more to it than that. For no other state is their foreign policy the only acceptable topic of discussion. This thread, for instance, was trying to address the radical religious right in Israel. If someone made a thread about Pat Buchanan, who said pretty much the same thing, I wouldn't expect the discussion to immediately just go to "omg the U$A are nazis, there genociding iraqis!!"

Lector Malibu

21st February 2008, 21:00

[quote]Wow, that is so not the topic of this discussion.

whatever;)

Why aren't you advocating changing the British flag to a Nazi flag?

Would you like me too? Really jolly old England has had it's fair share of bad deeds over the years.

Seriously, why is it that we can't have any discussion about Israel that doesn't just descend into "omg there lk naziss!!1".

Why is it so offensive to point at there wrong doings. Really tell me that..

First of all, to equate any and all forms of oppression with the holocaust is ludicrous.

I'm seeing alot of similarities , but go on

But more importantly, Israel is not some unitary entity, there's plenty of contradictions and internal dynamics that are worth discussing. It's occupation of Palestine is horrific, yes, and is worthy of much discussion, but there's more to it than that.

Where they not asked to leave in 1967 under UN242? And outside of committing horrific acts since , what is it you would like to discuss

For no other state is their foreign policy the only acceptable topic of discussion. This thread, for instance, was trying to address the radical religious right in Israel.

I realize that I guess I just thought I'd dive into some more general issues pertaining to the atrocities they have committed. But if your looking for Israel isn't bad it's just these religious fanatics your not gonna find that answer from me :lol:

If someone made a thread about Pat Buchanan, who said pretty much the same thing, I wouldn't expect the discussion to immediately just go to "omg the U$A are nazis, there genociding iraqis!!"

Like I said , I chose to talk more about the other issue related to Israel. Sorry you took it as me pissing in your cornflakes:)

Lector Malibu

21st February 2008, 21:31

Now that that's said I will respond to the topic at hand. Gee that's disgusting , reminds me of the American religious right .

Cencus

21st February 2008, 23:27

These people are laughable in most cases but when they hold any power and as has been the case at times actually hold the balance of power in a nation's parliament, then they become a real threat.

Black Dagger

22nd February 2008, 03:42

Israel is doing the same thing.

Obviously this is not true.

If Israel was doing 'the same thing' as the Nazi regime ALL the Palestinians would be dead by now. After all the Nazi regime exterminated tens of millions of 'undesireables' in less than a decade.

I really don't understand this push to conflate the state of Israel with the Nazi regime; it's the rhetorical impact right? 'The nazi's killed jews and now the state set-up in the aftermath of the holocaust is committing another holocaust!!!!' etc.

That might sound good at anti-war rally or whatever - but it's total bollocks.

Yes what the Israeli state is doing to the Palestinians is horrible - but it's not a holocaust - it's not a genocide - and to call it those things is to totally misunderstand what is happening or worse, to twist events to score political points.

Palestinians are rounded up in certain zones.

And shipped to death camps? Or shipped to factories to work as slaves? Right?

There has been stories about Palestinian cancer patients unable to go to the other zone for chemotherapy, leaving them to die.

'Stories' huh?

Palestinian children have to worry about getting shot or bombed on a daily basis on there way to school. Genocide is taking place there, it's just not as blatant.

This is because those children effectively live in a war-zone under martial law - that's horrible oppression but it's not 'genocide'.

No, they just beat em in the street and if they try and fight back they bomb and shoot them. I'm really not seeing much of a difference ...

Then i suggest you learn more about what happened during the Holocaust, reading some genocide literature would help too.

Lector Malibu

22nd February 2008, 04:19

Obviously this is not true.

If Israel was doing 'the same thing' as the Nazi regime ALL the Palestinians would be dead by now. After all the Nazi regime exterminated tens of millions of 'undesireables' in less than a decade.

I really don't understand this push to conflate the state of Israel with the Nazi regime; it's the rhetorical impact right? 'The nazi's killed jews and now the state set-up in the aftermath of the holocaust is committing another holocaust!!!!' etc.

That might sound good at anti-war rally or whatever - but it's total bollocks.

Yes what the Israeli state is doing to the Palestinians is horrible - but it's not a holocaust - it's not a genocide - and to call it those things is to totally misunderstand what is happening or worse, to twist events to score political points.

And shipped to death camps? Or shipped to factories to work as slaves? Right?

'Stories' huh?

This is because those children effectively live in a war-zone under martial law - that's horrible oppression but it's not 'genocide'.

Then i suggest you learn more about what happened during the Holocaust, reading some genocide literature would help too.

Oh I've read plenty and know all about it. Yeah are they shipping them of to labor camps? No, Have they got the Zyclone B?? Nope but I will say there are defiantly ghetto like conditions established were extreme poverty has settled in as a result of this similar to the Nazi's ghetto's . There is in fact violence, pillaging , murder, beatings , oppression, destruction of homes, denial of aid medical or food, curfews, and the list goes on and on. So whatever man yeah the holocaust was horrible and so wasn't this and there are similarities . Persecution is persecution period! whether it's the IDF or Nazi Germany it's all sickening. Oh and another thing just for the record I don't think one is anti-semitic for calling Israel on their atrocities, just thought I'd throw that out there

Black Dagger

22nd February 2008, 04:29

Nope but I will say there are defiantly ghetto like conditions established were extreme poverty has settled in as a result of this similar to the Nazi's ghetto's .

I agree the conditions are similar - but not with ghettos in the Nazi regime - really, any regime where a minority is being held under something tantamount to martial law or occupation.

You just need to drop the nazi comparison - it's politically motivated and not supported by the facts.

Persecution is persecution period! whether it's the IDF or Nazi Germany it's all sickening.

I agree - but labeling people 'Nazis' when they're not helps no one - it's basically using the holocaust for political mileage.

Oh and another thing just for the record I don't think one is anti-semitic for calling Israel on their atrocities, just thought I'd throw that out there

Ok :confused:

Lector Malibu

22nd February 2008, 04:57

I agree the conditions are similar - but not with ghettos in the Nazi regime - really, any regime where a minority is being held under something tantamount to martial law.

You just need to drop the nazi comparison - it's politically motivated and not supported by the facts. Dude I'm 35 years old and I've gotten over the need to just say things for shock value;)

Really though I'm not trying to take away from the holocaust or minimize that horrific event . Yes I agree that the IDF isn't Adolph Hitler , I just look at it for what it is and I see similarities, that's all It's not politically motivated on my part.

I agree - but labeling people 'Nazis' when they're not helps no one - it's basically using the holocaust for political mileage.Well than what's another name to refer to them that would describe their absolute horrific illegal occupation that has resulted in death and oppression of many.

The reason why I made the remark about one being seen as anti-semitic if they speak against Israel is because that actually happens quite often here in America. I guess I thought I'd throw in my two cents before someone accused me of it :D

Black Dagger

22nd February 2008, 05:02

Well than what's another name to refer to them that would describe their absolute horrific illegal occupation that has resulted in death and oppression of many.

I dunno, but whatever it is it should be apt.

It's an illegal, military occupation - why not call it that?

RNK

22nd February 2008, 05:15

It's an ultra-nationalistic, racially-motivated (or racially-excused) military occupation which involves annexations and genocide.

The Israeli government may not be a Nazi dictatorship, but their actions are extremely similar to one.

Lector Malibu

22nd February 2008, 05:16

I dunno, but whatever it is it should be apt.

It's an illegal, military occupation - why not call it that?

Well it doesn't really reflect what they are at this point. They have gone beyond that imo. Like I said I hear what your saying about the comparison though.

Black Dagger

22nd February 2008, 06:03

The Israeli government may not be a Nazi dictatorship, but their actions are extremely similar to one.

'Extremely similar' is a bit of an exaggeration no?

Like I said I hear what your saying about the comparison though.

Cool, now if i can only convince everyone else :D

Faux Real

22nd February 2008, 06:18

'Stories' huh?
Kristen Ess, a journalist in Gaza at the mo', reports nearly once a month about news of a Palestinian being denied access through checkpoints in search of a clinic. It's not all that uncommon.

As for the OP, gays are about as responsible for these earthquakes as this MP's religion was for the Black Plague. :rolleyes:

jake williams

22nd February 2008, 06:29

They fucking should. Fucking Israelis.
While I disagree completely with the sentiment... there are a few important and legitimate analogues between Nazi Germany and Israel, but especially in this case it's pretty clear that this is a rather extremely marginal view in Israel, to the point that it seems a pretty absurd thing to Israel-bash with, especially considering the ubiquity of these sorts of sentiments all over the world... nevertheless I have a lot of trouble getting angry at a Lebanese comrade for despising Israel, I kind of think they have a right to.

Winter

22nd February 2008, 06:41

Obviously this is not true.

If Israel was doing 'the same thing' as the Nazi regime ALL the Palestinians would be dead by now. After all the Nazi regime exterminated tens of millions of 'undesireables' in less than a decade.

I really don't understand this push to conflate the state of Israel with the Nazi regime; it's the rhetorical impact right? 'The nazi's killed jews and now the state set-up in the aftermath of the holocaust is committing another holocaust!!!!' etc.

That might sound good at anti-war rally or whatever - but it's total bollocks.

Yes what the Israeli state is doing to the Palestinians is horrible - but it's not a holocaust - it's not a genocide - and to call it those things is to totally misunderstand what is happening or worse, to twist events to score political points.

And shipped to death camps? Or shipped to factories to work as slaves? Right?

'Stories' huh?

This is because those children effectively live in a war-zone under martial law - that's horrible oppression but it's not 'genocide'.

Then i suggest you learn more about what happened during the Holocaust, reading some genocide literature would help too.

Like I said, genocide isn't always a blatant rallying up of people and shipping them into death campls. In this case, it's turning there own lands into death camps in themselves and keeping them from the most basic necessities. Just because it isn't outright murder doesn't mean there isn't a more devious plan underneath the veil.

Lector Malibu

22nd February 2008, 06:50

Cool, now if i can only convince everyone else :D

:lol: Nice try I just said I heard what you were trying to say ....

Zurdito

23rd February 2008, 00:05

Obviously this is not true.

If Israel was doing 'the same thing' as the Nazi regime ALL the Palestinians would be dead by now.

The Israelis do not really have the choice to do that. What's the proportion of Jews to Arabs in the Middle East as opposed to the proportion of "Aryans" to Jews in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's?

Black Dagger

23rd February 2008, 01:59

Right, so it's a numbers game eh? That's the only thing stopping the Israeli state gassing all the Palestinians - give me a break.

bcbm

24th February 2008, 14:31

BD is pretty much spot on... Israel seems to be compared to Nazis far more often than any other occupying force and I don't think its unfair to speculate that the reason for that has to do with it being a Jewish state. When was the last time anybody called Turkey Nazis for occupying Cyprus and the genocide of the Kurds, or Britain Nazis for Occupying NI, etc? Of course, as has been brought up, individuals "Could/would say that," but gee it seems they never do unless called on it. The comparison is simply political leverage, and very vulgar leverage at that and does nothing to objectively or accurately describe the situation on the ground. The "all persecutions are bad" defense is a cop-out. If you want to assess the situation in Israel and the OT than do it objectively and with facts, not with obscene Nazi comparisons.

Lector Malibu

24th February 2008, 19:15

BD is pretty much spot on... Israel seems to be compared to Nazis far more often than any other occupying force and I don't think its unfair to speculate that the reason for that has to do with it being a Jewish state.

I'm not picking on Israel because their Jewish flat out . Being Jewish has nothing to do with it on my end. This is exactly why I brought up the the remark they other day saying that I wasn't anti-semitic because I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt somebody would suggest that or make reference to that as you carefully did in the quote above. Sorry but I'm not picking on Israel to victimize them because there Jewish.

When was the last time anybody called Turkey Nazis for occupying Cyprus and the genocide of the Kurds, or Britain Nazis for Occupying NI, etc? Of course, as has been brought up, individuals "Could/would say that," but gee it seems they never do unless called on it.

Hey I don't know about others but I have no problem discussing other countries and what I think of them period. This thread was related though to Israel, if you wanna chat about opinions about other country's by all means start a thread. I'd love that especially one about those British bastards ;)

The comparison is simply political leverage, and very vulgar leverage at that and does nothing to objectively or accurately describe the situation on the ground.

Chalking it off as just a military occupation does in no way depict what is actually going on That's what western propaganda media wants you to think. As I said on the other thread , I realize the IDF is not Nazi Germany. This isn't world war two or any of that. They are however acting in a way that is reminiscent of that era. So imo the terms that have been used, though maybe over the top are not unfounded.

The "all persecutions are bad" defense is a cop-out.

What your really saying is people haven't suffered like the Jewish people and really have not been persecuted as they have. Hey the Holocaust was really bad no doubt, along with some other insane barbaric atrocities that humans have inflicted upon one another.

If you want to assess the situation in Israel and the OT than do it objectively and with facts, not with obscene Nazi comparisons.

I've been more than fair and objective on this debate, and the oppressions I have referred to on my previous post are fact. And if me referring to a bunch of violent brutal thugs as "Nazish " when they are behaving similar is too much to handle than I guess that's tough cookies .

Gitfiddle Jim

24th February 2008, 20:54

Anyone who blames an earthquake on gays obviously has the brain capacity of a squirrel.

bcbm

25th February 2008, 06:31

I'm not picking on Israel because their Jewish flat out.

I never said you were. I said that Israel is compared to the Nazis far more often than other colonial occupying forces, and I believe the reason for that is because they're Jews and the "Look they're doing what happened to them angle" makes some nice, inflammatory propaganda.

This is exactly why I brought up the the remark they other day saying that I wasn't anti-semitic because I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt somebody would suggest that or make reference to that as you carefully did in the quote above. Sorry but I'm not picking on Israel to victimize them because there Jewish.

Again, I didn't say you were and nowhere did I call you anti-semitic, or even that sort of anti-semitic. I doubt that most people who do it are anti-semitic and I wouldn't call them such, but I think the argument itself is pretty disgusting and inaccurate, if not a touch anti-semitic.

Hey I don't know about others but I have no problem discussing other countries and what I think of them period. This thread was related though to Israel, if you wanna chat about opinions about other country's by all means start a thread. I'd love that especially one about those British bastards

Perhaps you like to often incorrectly correlate countries to the Nazis, I don't know, but I was speaking about the board in general more than you specifically. In my time here I haven't noticed the Nazi comparisons occurring as frequently as they do with Israel.

Chalking it off as just a military occupation does in no way depict what is actually going on That's what western propaganda media wants you to think.

But it is a colonial military occupation; to describe it otherwise is dishonest. Calling it that doesn't make it "prettier," I think by being honest and describing it accurately one can actually make a much stronger argument than by making Nazi comparisons.

As I said on the other thread , I realize the IDF is not Nazi Germany. This isn't world war two or any of that. They are however acting in a way that is reminiscent of that era.

Then you should call every modern army involved in a combat situation "Nazis," because all modern military tactics have their base in WWII and are just as reminiscent.

What your really saying is people haven't suffered like the Jewish people and really have not been persecuted as they have.

Not at all. Indigenous populations and Africans have been put through just as much, if not more. And I'm interested in accurately describing those as well. I wouldn't say "The US treated African slaves like the Nazis treated Jews," because its an inaccurate and stupid comparison. Likewise...

Lector Malibu

25th February 2008, 11:43

I never said you were. I said that Israel is compared to the Nazis far more often than other colonial occupying forces, and I believe the reason for that is because they're Jews and the "Look they're doing what happened to them angle" makes some nice, inflammatory propaganda.

I'm not a propagandist and I have no intention of spreading inflammatory propaganda. I also don't believe there's a conspiracy to single out Israel and accuse them of atrocities just for the hell of it.

Again, I didn't say you were and nowhere did I call you anti-semitic, or even that sort of anti-semitic. I doubt that most people who do it are anti-semitic and I wouldn't call them such, but I think the argument itself is pretty disgusting and inaccurate, if not a touch anti-semitic.Well you can think what you want but the argument is not anti-semitic.

Perhaps you like to often incorrectly correlate countries to the Nazis, I don't know, but I was speaking about the board in general more than you specifically. In my time here I haven't noticed the Nazi comparisons occurring as frequently as they do with Israel.Well if you actually read my post on this thread or any other where the subject has been touched upon I and others have said that there are similarities between the way Israel is acting. That's not me calling them Nazi's. I'm saying there behavior is similar. I'm also saying I don't think the terms are completely unfounded because of their behavior. Where as some people are saying there's no way that's possible I'm saying well yes, there are some similarities.

some of my post:

Really though I'm not trying to take away from the holocaust or minimize that horrific event . Yes I agree that the IDF isn't Adolph Hitler , I just look at it for what it is and I see similarities, that's all It's not politically motivated on my part.or

. As I said on the other thread , I realize the IDF is not Nazi Germany. This isn't world war two or any of that. They are however acting in a way that is reminiscent of that era. So imo the terms that have been used, though maybe over the top are not unfounded.and

I'm not gonna say that the way the Palestinians are suffering and being oppressed is an exact carbon copy of what Nazi Germany did. Though I'm not gonna deny that there are similarities and alot to boot
[quote=black coffee black metal;1082130]But it is a colonial military occupation; to describe it otherwise is dishonest. Calling it that doesn't make it "prettier," I think by being honest and describing it accurately one can actually make a much stronger argument than by making Nazi comparisons.Make it prettier? What are you talking about? I could care less what it sounds like as long as it reflects the absolute brutal violent pile of defication that it is.

Then you should call every modern army involved in a combat situation "Nazis," because all modern military tactics have their base in WWII and are just as reminiscent.Nice way to completely take my quote outta context. That's absolutely ridiculous and you know it.

Not at all. Indigenous populations and Africans have been put through just as much, if not more. And I'm interested in accurately describing those as well. I wouldn't say "The US treated African slaves like the Nazis treated Jews," because its an inaccurate and stupid comparison. Likewise...Neither would I say that that the U.S treated slaves like the Nazi's treated Jewish people and others , nor have I in any of my post

bcbm

25th February 2008, 12:22

I'm not a propagandist and I have no intention of spreading inflammatory propaganda.

Maybe not consciously, but that's how the "Israel is Nazis!" argument generally comes off. You're not as bad as others, I'm commenting more on a general trend than you specifically, as I mentioned earlier.

I also don't believe there's a conspiracy to single out Israel and accuse them of atrocities just for the hell of it.

And that isn't at all what I said. I'm saying the use of specific terms in regards to Israel and describing its government/actions has a lot to do with who is involved.

Well you can think what you want but the argument is not anti-semitic.

I think making the argument that Israel has become Nazis and is perpetrating its own holocaust against the Palestinians is basically downplaying the significance and horror of the Holocaust, and that strikes me as a tad bit anti-semitic. Again, I don't think (most) people do it with that intent, but that's how it comes off. And that argument pops up quite commonly in ahem... certain... circles frequently for obvious reasons, which makes me skeptical of it from the get-go.

Well if you actually read my post on this thread or any other where the subject has been touched upon I and others have said that there are similarities between the way Israel is acting. That's not me calling them Nazi's. I'm saying there behavior is similar. I'm also saying I don't think the terms are completely unfounded because of their behavior. Where as some people are saying there's no way that's possible I'm saying well yes, there are some similarities.

And, again, there would be the exact same similarities with every other occupying military force since 1945, if not before, which makes the comparison rather pointless. The major thing about the Nazis that made them so disgusting was the industrial efficiency with which they undertook their genocide (and why the comparison holds such power!), and there really aren't any meaningful similarities here.

Lector Malibu

25th February 2008, 13:16

Maybe not consciously, but that's how the "Israel is Nazis!" argument generally comes off. You're not as bad as others, I'm commenting more on a general trend than you specifically, as I mentioned earlier.

Well my argument isn't the "Israels is Nazis" argument whatever the heck that is. My argument is the let's get real about the horrific crimes against humanity the IDF has been committing towards Palestinian men , women and children argument.

And that isn't at all what I said. I'm saying the use of specific terms in regards to Israel and describing its government/actions has a lot to do with who is involved.I don't. I think that it is the case where the once oppressed have become the oppressors . The terminology used though not the best, is not so far off the spectrum either that's its not completely inapplicable. What are some other terms that could be used to describe the complete savage treatment of the Palestinians by Israels goverment/ military

I think making the argument that Israel has become Nazis and is perpetrating its own holocaust against the Palestinians is basically downplaying the significance and horror of the Holocaust, and that strikes me as a tad bit anti-semitic. Again, I don't think (most) people do it with that intent, but that's how it comes off. Well here's what I said in regards to that the other day or did you not read it?

I don't hold these views to minimize or take away from the victims of the actual Holocaust , I'm not anti-semitic in any way or a man of ignorance. Like I said the other day the IDF isn't using Zyclone B or anything horrible like that. What they are doing though is horrible enough though and I really don't know where people get off suggesting else wise.
I think that above speaks for itself but whatever ....

And that argument pops up quite commonly in ahem... certain... circles frequently for obvious reasons, which makes me skeptical of it from the get-go.Be skeptical all you want, My opinion is not based on what Neo Nazis chose to argue about.

And, again, there would be the exact same similarities with every other occupying military force since 1945, if not before, which makes the comparison rather pointless.Why are you trying to down play what the IDF is doing?

The major thing about the Nazis that made them so disgusting was the industrial efficiency with which they undertook their genocide (and why the comparison holds such power!), and there really aren't any meaningful similarities here.Whatever, and for the record as a minority I'm offended on your outlook as what constitutes as actual suffering and oppression and what we should determine the precursors to describe such.

Have a Nice Day !

bcbm

25th February 2008, 14:21

Well my argument isn't the "Israels is Nazis" argument whatever the heck that is. My argument is the let's get real about the horrific crimes against humanity the IDF has been committing towards Palestinian men , women and children argument.I don't think anybody is arguing that we shouldn't be real about them. I've been saying the whole time we should be accurate in looking at the situation on the ground.

I don't. I think that it is the case where the once oppressed have become the oppressors . The terminology used though not the best, is not so far off the spectrum either that's its not completely inapplicable. What are some other terms that could be used to describe the complete savage treatment of the Palestinians by Israels goverment/ militaryLook up "savage" or "brutal" in a Thesaurus. The English language has no shortage of words to describe such horrors. I think Nazi and Holocaust comparisons in regards to Israel/Palestine take away from both and reflect an inaccurate picture of what is going on, and that's why other, more accurate terms should be used.

Well here's what I said in regards to that the other day or did you not read it?Did you not read "I don't think (most) people do it with that intent," either of the times I said it? Or the "not necessarily talking about you specifically" bit?

Be skeptical all you want, My opinion is not based on what Neo Nazis chose to argue about.That's fine, but when I see leftists and Nazis spouting the same lines verbatim, I get a little worried. That's its occurring in regards to a line of argument I'm already skeptical of doesn't help.

Why are you trying to down play what the IDF is doing?How is pointing out that a comparison to the Nazis on grounds of similar tactics is pointless due to the use of similar tactics in all occupying military expeditions downplaying anything? Modern warfare and imperialism is an extremely ugly and brutal business (that's the point) and I'm opposed to all military occupations. I just don't think comparisons to Nazis have any point. There's plenty of terrible shit to bring up without resorting to playing the Nazi card.

Whatever, and for the record as a minority I'm offended on your outlook as what constitutes as actual suffering and oppression and what we should determine the precursors to describe such.Who said anything about determining "actual suffering and oppression?" I'm not saying that Palestinians aren't oppressed. I've been saying the opposite the entire fucking time. My point is that the Nazi comparison is unwarranted for a) reasons of historical accuracy and b) the wealth of damnable shit available for use without it. Its an unnecessary emotional plea and, beyond that, the immediate Nazi comparison is generally regarded as something of a logical fallacy in and of itself.

Lector Malibu

25th February 2008, 15:22

I don't think anybody is arguing that we shouldn't be real about them. I've been saying the whole time we should be accurate in looking at the situation on the ground.

I have been ..and alot of other's too ever since they violated the request to leave in 1967 (UN242)

Look up "savage" or "brutal" in a Thesaurus. The English language has no shortage of words to describe such horrors. I think Nazi and Holocaust comparisons in regards to Israel/Palestine take away from both and reflect an inaccurate picture of what is going on, and that's why other, more accurate terms should be used.Yeah and when I start referring to them in other ugly terms it will be an issue as well , I'm willing to bet ...Sorry but whatever language that is used to describe the actions of the IDF illegal occupation has to also reflect the murder and bloodshed they have caused in the region as well

Did you not read "I don't think (most) people do it with that intent," either of the times I said it? Or the "not necessarily talking about you specifically" bit?In this case that should be a "not talking about you period." I have no "intentions" as you say.

That's fine, but when I see leftists and Nazis spouting the same lines verbatim, I get a little worried. That's its occurring in regards to a line of argument I'm already skeptical of doesn't help.I usally don't hear Nazis saying things like "We gotta get the murdering Jewish IDF , those guys are as bad as we were" I digress but my argument is not reflective of a Nazi argument

How is pointing out that a comparison to the Nazis on grounds of similar tactics is pointless due to the use of similar tactics in all occupying military expeditions downplaying anything? Modern warfare and imperialism is an extremely ugly and brutal business (that's the point) and I'm opposed to all military occupations. I just don't think comparisons to Nazis have any point. There's plenty of terrible shit to bring up without resorting to playing the Nazi card.I'm not playing any card! This isn't poker

Who said anything about determining "actual suffering and oppression?" I'm not saying that Palestinians aren't oppressed. I've been saying the opposite the entire fucking time.Really ? you seem to be more concerned about the portrayal of IDF....

My point is that the Nazi comparison is unwarranted for a) reasons of historical accuracy and b) the wealth of damnable shit available for use without it. Its an unnecessary emotional plea and, beyond that, the immediate Nazi comparison is generally regarded as something of a logical fallacy in and of itself.Yeah and as I have said over and over and over in many different ways time and time again I realize the IDF is not Hitler's Army. I have stated flat out that this wasn't WW2 or any of that! I said that there were some similarities between the way the the Nazis acted and the way the IDF is treating the Palestinians big whoop!

bcbm

25th February 2008, 23:02

We're not really arguing anything substantially different, beyond that I don't think Nazi comparisons have a place in Israel-Palestine discussions and you don't mind them. We completely agree that the IDF are brutal butchers and what is going on is horrible, so is there really a point to keeping this going? I think we've gotten about as far as we're going to get with our points.

Lector Malibu

26th February 2008, 00:12

Zurdito

26th February 2008, 04:17

Right, so it's a numbers game eh? That's the only thing stopping the Israeli state gassing all the Palestinians - give me a break.

no, you give me a break. Israel is not in a comparable situation to Germany in the 1930's and never will be, it is a tiny apartheid colony surrounded by hostile masses. "Ideology" has fuck all to do with it. The most right-wing Israeli could get into power, and they couldn't do exactly what Nazi Germany did.

What is true is that the state is based on racism and ethnic cleansing and both of these ideologies were employed by the Nazis also.

What is not true is that the Israeli government is "fascist" or "Nazi"...it's Zionist, which is its own phenomenon.

Comparisons with the Nazis work to the extent that they are accurate. They aren't "wrong" in themselves. It depends on the point you are trying to make.

Vahanian

5th March 2008, 21:22

Anyone who blames an earthquake on gays obviously has the brain capacity of a squirrel.

i agree with this high schoolers are smarter than this in almost any country

Vahanian

5th March 2008, 21:23

Anyone who blames an earthquake on gays obviously has the brain capacity of a squirrel.

i agree high school students are smater than this

EwokUtopia

5th March 2008, 21:36

I don't know why Israel just doesn't change their flag to the swastika at this point.

While I am certainly no fan of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians, I think we should all adhere to Godwins Law.

Lector Malibu

6th March 2008, 08:54

While I am certainly no fan of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians, I think we should all adhere to Godwins Law.

I'm not gonna debate this again as I did on previous pages of this post. Go back and read my post if you wanna know where I stand.

Lead Headache

7th March 2008, 02:58

Blaming earthquakes on homosexual tolerance is like blaming the LA Riots on tolerance of African Americans.

It's nonsensical.

Static

7th March 2008, 04:57

I 'm not to hip to their treatment of the Palestinian people. They were asked to leave in 1967 (UN242) They have yet to comply. They are an abusive illegal occupational force dominating the Palestinian people through violence and oppression, U.S. backed, go figure . So my remark was to touch on the notion that like the Nazi's pillaged and terrorized Israel at this point is behaving in similar fashion.

Wait, Did you just call Palestinians People? *sigh*

But seriously, blaming earthquakes on gays, thats just beyond dumb.

careyprice31

7th March 2008, 12:08

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7255657.stm
So gays are responsible for earthquakes huh? I swear the stupidity of the religious right never ceases to amaze me.:glare:

Haha.

I read your post and nearly spit my tetley tea all over my keyboard laughing at these religious right nutbars.

I would swear their heads are many cards short of a full deck :laugh:

It is well known that religious rights are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

careyprice31

7th March 2008, 12:16

Anyone who blames an earthquake on gays obviously has the brain capacity of a squirrel.

lol, now your insulting the squirrels :)

a squirrel would never even think of something like that.

The religious right is actually dumber than a squirrel.

Unicorn

19th March 2008, 20:04

If they show this ad on national television Israel can't be a homophobic country. :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwk8zlr3AM4

Excellent HIV awareness video, btw. :)

Dean

20th March 2008, 02:06

Seriously, why is it that we can't have any discussion about Israel that doesn't just descend into "omg there lk naziss!!1". First of all, to equate any and all forms of oppression with the holocaust is ludicrous. But more importantly, Israel is not some unitary entity, there's plenty of contradictions and internal dynamics that are worth discussing. It's occupation of Palestine is horrific, yes, and is worthy of much discussion, but there's more to it than that. For no other state is their foreign policy the only acceptable topic of discussion. This thread, for instance, was trying to address the radical religious right in Israel. If someone made a thread about Pat Buchanan, who said pretty much the same thing, I wouldn't expect the discussion to immediately just go to "omg the U$A are nazis, there genociding iraqis!!"

That's why this comment infuriated me:

They fucking should. Fucking Israelis.
I know people who are Israeli citizens. They are all decent people (the ones I know). Why hate them?