Heroes and Villains

[poolcleaner]

As time progresses, the left can look back at the many people, who were the leaders of Socialism/Communism over the years, with fresh ideas and sometimes new revelations.

I wonder, since the fall of communism in Europe, the growing capitalist trend in Asia and the bankruptcy of African politics, which left wing icons have stood the test of time, and who have fallen into disrepute?

As Fidel slowly fades from the spotlight, will his legacy be that of a hero or a failure?
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot. Is there any respect attached to their roles in history?

Who's in, and who's out?

[Holden Caulfield]

the left really has no need to create leaders out of the leaders of states,
and as any true communist states have never been fully created it would be impossible for everybody to agree on any choices as most of the people selected will have their own major failings,

as for heros i would say Lenin (et al) for creating the first workers state, and at least trying to make it work and trying to create a better world,

[EwokUtopia]

as for heros i would say Lenin (et al) for creating the first workers state, and at least trying to make it work and trying to create a better world,

Tito, for defying that workers state when it became corrupt and power-hungry.

[poolcleaner]

the left really has no need to create leaders out of the leaders of states,
and as any true communist states have never been fully created it would be impossible for everybody to agree on any choices as most of the people selected will have their own major failings,
Is there no-one that has earned our support?
Are we looking back at only failure and corruption?


as for heros i would say Lenin (et al) for creating the first workers state, and at least trying to make it work and trying to create a better world,

I would agree with Lenin.

How does Hugo Chavez stack up?

[Holden Caulfield]

my point was i am pretty certain that we will never come up with a 'hero' that everybody on this site will hold in a similar regard,

i support Chavez, but he has many of his own failings that other comrades would pick apart, same with anybody else that anybody could suggest,

the anarchists wont have the same heros as the marxists, and the factions of marxism will never agree on the real heros and villians of their own movement,

[Regina]

Winners write history thats all i can say

[gilhyle]

Heroes usually fail and die trying: so Lenin, Trotsky, Serge and many, many, many more......somewhere there should be a memorial to the unknown 20th century revolutionary who died for a cause that expunged her name from history.

[Holden Caulfield]

thank you so much for your constructive addition to this debate please gave your wisdom sparingly as i dont think i can take it all in at once, (*cough* fuck off)

[Niccolò Rossi]

One of my personal hates of current socialist movement is the level of hero worship. A large portion of socialist organisations today seem to worship Che, Trotsky, Mao, Stalin and Lenin like gods based on their ideology. Such hero worship is both unpleasant and damaging to our movement.

The Socialist Movement must at all times have its focus in the masses of the proletariat, not in some "guiding theorist", "guerrilla tactician" or "martyr". Hero worship like we see today in the left is totally against what we aught to be standing for and should be decried by each and every Marxist.

The issue or personality cults is dealt with by Marx in a letter to Wilhelm Bloss:
"Neither of us cares a straw for popularity. Let me cite one proof of this: such was my aversion to the personality cult that at the time of the International, when plagued by numerous moves — originating from various countries — to accord me public honour, I never allowed one of these to enter the domain of publicity, nor did I ever reply to them, save with an occasional snub. When Engels and I first joined the secret communist society, we did so only on condition that anything conducive to a superstitious belief in authority be eliminated from the Rules."

Now of course I understand that the individuals idolised by the left today did (in most cases) make substantial theoretical and practical contributions to out movement, but we should not for a second idolise them for it. Our interests must at all times be those of the proletariat and not of some dead figure head.

[Holden Caulfield]

the left really has no need to create leaders out of the leaders of states,


that was kinda my original no so clearly put across point

[Lenin II]

I wonder, since the fall of communism in Europe, the growing capitalist trend in Asia and the bankruptcy of African politics
Communism will never "fall." The socialist nations in those continents were merely overtaken by bourgeoisie revisionists, reformists and liberals. In some cases, such as Zimbabwe, they were probably never Marxist to begin with.

As Fidel slowly fades from the spotlight, will his legacy be that of a hero or a failure?
Even though I am an anti-revisionist who views Fidel as a revisionist himself, I would say hero. Not only is he the greatest politician alive today, he has withstood the test of time and inspired billions across the globe to reject imperialism.

Mao
One of the greatest leaders and best writers.

Stalin
He's like a father to me.

Pol Pot.
His death tolls are incredibly exaggerated, and though he had many anti-working class policies, the Khmer Rouge were a progressive force.

Is there any respect attached to their roles in history?
It's not about who's in or who's out. You can draw inspiration from anyone, as I do.

Who's in, and who's out?
The left has absolutely no consensus on this, as you'll soon be able to tell from the bickering posts soon to come.

[BIG BROTHER]

I would consider Fidel, Che Guevara, Lennin, and Strotsky heroes. Not that I'm saying they were perfect but I do consider them heroes.

[Black Dagger]

Framing history in terms of 'heroes' and 'villains' is a tad simplistic don't ya think?

[Holden Caulfield]

A typical revleft response. I raise a concern because your statement was entirely fallacious and you reply with sardonicism and profanity.

Regardless of whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, claiming that you respect someone "because they tried" means nothing. It will either lead you into making dangerous concessions (where, based on your logic, you will be forced to concede that you ought to respect characters such as Mussolini for "try[ing] to make a better world") or being caught in a double standard.

i respect these men (such as Trotsky) for

A) not making easy concessions to stay in power and be Stalin ***** until he his show trial unlike Bukharin, Zinoviev etc, as this shows massive commitment to the true cause and a personal disregard if it conflicted with his ideals

B) carrying out a revolution, which eventually yes did fail (in my view) but i would rather respect those who die trying (or fail attempting revolution) than disregard them off hand because other people who have tried to make a better world fucked it up

your take on this is very cynical, and yes a lot of twisted fucks thought they were right when doing wrong and that makes it even more important to recognise those who were on the right path for the benafit of humanity

[Die Neue Zeit]

Heroes usually fail and die trying: so Lenin, Trotsky, Serge and many, many, many more......somewhere there should be a memorial to the unknown 20th century revolutionary who died for a cause that expunged her name from history.

If comrades like myself were to lead the revolution, we would oversee the construction of, as a minimum, a KHUFU-sized "tomb of the unknown revolutionary worker" or something like that as the core of a massive complex. Said pyramid would have an albeit high-level tribune at the bottom overlooking what would be the world's largest public square, and massive uniformed marches would be held annually in honour of the "unknown revolutionary worker."

On the other side of the square would be a horizontally long sub-complex modelled after Greco-Roman buildings (lots of pillars) for the banners to hang in front of:

http://www.muar.ru/ve/2003/moscow/02e.htm
http://www.muar.ru/press_dossier/2006/visotki/14.jpg

:D

[Holden Caulfield]

nothing like capitalims embodied than pyramids,

[Lenin II]

nothing like capitalims embodied than pyramids,
Uh....come again? :confused:

[Holden Caulfield]

i wasnt having a go but workers on the bottom, rich fucks at the top, pyrmids occur in society