Uniformity of discourse [Archive]

El Che

19th February 2002, 11:31

You all say the same shit. I read these threads sometimes without great interest but i do. All these threads are the same discussion and you all say the same thing: "communism" is bad because there is no freedom... This is the only simplistic notion that your mind brings into the debate. Your mind is closed. This simplistic notion that is untrue indicates 2 things. firstly ignorance and secondly propaganda. Its sad that we cant make you understand there is so much more to it then what you see. But thats what it is. I guess languege doesnt really work after all... you see you have to actualy listen for it to work.

Imperial power, forever capitallist, capitalist, RL etc Understand this, there are many tendancies in the left, some are democratic some are not, but it is stupid and idiotic to continue to insist on this point! I want change and yet i have faith in democracy, cant you get passed the damn issue of single party states for one minute? We must change and if you would stop being so stubbern you would understand why. Capitalism is responsible for many injustices and instead of saying "well lets try and change that" you say that comunist nations are poor and have no fucking freedom and this and that omfg. Just leave it alone for one second and analise the other part of the picture. The other part of the picture rules the world, every nation, including china, cuba etc. You see how words are deceiving? china is suposted to be communist right? but whats the economic system? capitalism and whats the political system? fascism. Call things by their names, use your own judgement. But anyway lets not get into that again, capitalism rules the world, it is the dominante mode of production and economic system. Now look, look close at the injustices that are a result of that. If you dont look your a fool not worthy of my consideration, if you look and dont see your a simplistic idiot your mind closed by ignorance and propaganda, if you look, see and agree then you are a criminal and deserve misery, jail or worse.

Forever capitalism

19th February 2002, 11:42

I think we are been mature about this, though not everyone is contributing, i don't see why it is necessary for you to try and appeal to our reason and rationality by claiming that capitalism is at fault. In fact you are doing the same things that you accuse us of. We have difference of opinion. You need to accept that. Just because we bring up valid points such as the lack of freedom in communism, point that you obviously find difficult to refute, it doesn't mean that you can discard them because they have been brough up often. It is like prohibiting dialogue about atrocities because more than a few threads are based upon them. Fact remains they are valid and until you can refute and rebuttal them then we will bring up other points. Understand?

Forever capitalism

19th February 2002, 11:44

Fact remains they are valid and until you can refute and rebuttal them then we will bring up other points. Understand?

Correction, until you can refute them we will keep addressing these important issues.

El Che

19th February 2002, 11:50

ok let me try again, i dont favor undemocratic goverments where there is no political freedom got it? did u understand what i just said to you? im going to say it again, i dont suport goverments where there is no political freedom. ok? good. Now put that behind your back, forget about that issue and try to move one step foward.

El Che

19th February 2002, 11:52

your lost now arent you? your one and only arguement, the evil commies that dont want freedom just disapeared into thin air and you are hopelessly lost without it, fool.

queen of diamonds

19th February 2002, 12:16

Okay, we'll put that behind us for now, let's look at communism as it is in theory (since no real communism government seems to turn out anything but a dictatorship.....). what's supposed to happen (according to marx - correct me if i'm wrong) is that a capitalist system is in place that exploits the workers, who rise up and take control of the government, then working to create a classless society where everyone is equal, etc., and then they're supposed to relinquish power, and everyone lives together in peace and harmony? give me a break! you say we're bringing up the same one point everywhere.....let me introduce this one.....
the very nature of human beings prevents communism from working. history has repeatedly shown that after being oppressed for so long, the working class in a revolution, having seized power, is not focussing on bringing everyone to an equal level, but rather showing the former upper classes what it was like in the lower class. but, passing over that, i don't think we have to go too far back into the history of any country to show that people are power-hungry....what makes you think they're going to relinquish power? bypassing that, once everything has been established, if anyone tries to exploit the system, it's stuffed. it's too fragile to withstand that. hence, the government (before it relinquished power) would have to eliminate anyone who posed a threat to the system.....hence the supression of freedom of opinion and speech (which is thus a fact of communism, not just a by-product of the failed attempts at communism we have today)
you're telling us to take a look, i think you should open your eyes and take a look at the ridiculous system you're supporting
mate, give us a call when you decide to join us again in reality....

El Che

19th February 2002, 12:39

Hence, hence, hence. Hence you petulante arrogance, who said "ignorance is arrogante" do you know?

There are problems that need to be adressed, not by revolution (which makes your stupid post completly irrevelante where i am concerned) but by responsible goverments. I dont want to effectivate one big predefined model of an ideal society. What i want is to start a process, to do what is possible, to stop neo-liberalism, to stop globalisation on these terms, i want responsible policies towards the thrid world, debt cancelation and no tax evasion by the rich. I want restrictions of corporations, i want the sleasy bastards to pay the workers in indonesia more that 1 dollar a mounth, i think its revolting, it makes me sick. You make me sick because you dont even understand what im telling you, here i am writting english and you cant understand a fucking word a say! and it makes me mad.

Queen of diamonds i can only discuss on these terms with you. I can only discuss in terms of concreat issues, i know nothing of revolutions and i have no model of society to implement. Or rather i have a model, an ideal to walk towards, but it is within the political institutions that already exist in my contry. I will insist and all of you idiots will either understand me or stop posting in this thread because i will persist.

(Edited by El Che at 1:41 pm on Feb. 19, 2002)

Da Shit

19th February 2002, 14:22

understand what el che says? we need to change... why? take a look at the world... what u guys dont understand (or dont want to understand) is that this isnt black and white.... there are many tones of grey in between... its not just capitalism or communism... being of the left doesnt mean we want a system exactly like lenin or marx or whoever wanted. that is ridiculous

also not wanting to change is not wanting development. in order for development to exist things must change whether u like it or not... preferrably change for the better. i think what best describes this is el ches own signature "to be of the left is to put the individual above the social fictions he creates". capitalism is about the individual? im sorry but as the name and facts indicate, capitalism is about money. i wont mention the facts all over again, i think u read them and either u didnt want to believe them, simply ignored them, or accused "communist" states of doing the same. understand also this: we dont want a perfect system, we want a better system, a system that doesnt act based on economics, but based on people.

do u deny that capitalist states step on other countries?

Imperial Power

19th February 2002, 22:32

El Che correct me then on these issues:

1) Communism is the most vulnerable form of government to becoming totalitarian.

2) The class less society notion is a grudge against those who have succeded and in reality is impossible to implement.

3) Freedoms are surrpressed in communist society.

4) Communism is a way to control the poor and surpress free thinking.

Moskitto

19th February 2002, 22:45

1) Communism is the most vulnerable form of government to becoming totalitarian.

I think you'll find that Fascism actually demands totalitarianism. Communism does not.

2) The class less society notion is a grudge against those who have succeded and in reality is impossible to implement.

Labelling people who are socialists as having a grudge against those who are successful is not a wise idea. Price Edward described Republicans as "hating success" yet all the royal family do is sit around on inherited wealth. Infact Prince Edward himself makes a £2m loss every year.

3) Freedoms are surrpressed in communist society.

If everyone is equal then everyone should have an equal oppertunity to do what they like.

4) Communism is a way to control the poor and surpress free thinking.

If everyone is equal then all voices are equal, therefore there would be free thinking.

El Che

19th February 2002, 23:14

Imperial Power read this thread again.

La Resistance

20th February 2002, 00:23

True communism is really a democracy with several mechanisms in place to control wealth.

This is rather hard to implement, since the incentive to work is rather well annihilated when money is out of the picture.

As pointed out before, the best thing to start off with is to raise the salary of sweatshop workers, and all other underpaid "whores of the free world/capitalist nations," I mean that's what they are, right now, *****es who crank out stuff in the "EXCESS" for a select group of people(20% percentile). You might argue that they live better, but remember they ARE still your *****, and if you still ike that idea, you're one SICK INDIVIDUALISTICK MORON!!!

Imperial Power

20th February 2002, 01:53

Moskitto

1) How do you explain every communist country in the world being virtually totalitarian then? The non-existence of a true communist state is proof that it can not exist. The power always take control over the easily abused system.

2) Why is the rallying call of so many "Fuck the rich bastards" "Go play with your money" "Rich bastards"

3) Your reply sounds like anarchy which is impossible because someone will always form a system of control.

4) Your just begging the question.

queen of diamonds

20th February 2002, 09:51

okay, back track ages....maybe i really can't read english or something, but i did kinda get the impression that this thread was orignially about how the capitalists keep bringing up the same point again?
resistance.....how is communism a democracy?
el che, i agree that we need change, but i think every example of communist countries we have before us shows that it's not the change we need
moskitto, your point needs reviewing.....by it's very nature, at least for a while (in theory), and indefinitely in practice, communism is dictatorship, and given human nature, it's going to turn out to be an oppressive, totalitaian regime.
el che, i think it might help if you tried to attack the ideas in the forum rather than the people who post them....you say i don't understand what you're talking about, but i don't think you fully understand what we're going on about....or you're doing a very good job of pretending not to....
yeah, in the original political sense, capitalism was supposed to be about the individual. whatever it has turned out to be, that's what it was originally meant to be.
and no, i'm not denying that capitalist states to hurt people, and i'm not denying we need a change....i'm denying that the change needs to be towards communism

Forever capitalism

20th February 2002, 11:08

are you then suggesting reform in the present system rather than a violent revolution and transfer of power to communism/totalitrianism?

peaccenicked

20th February 2002, 11:20

yes and no
the system can be reformed in favour of the working class to some extent.
as soon as we become a majotity it is the capitalists who atempt to overthrow our governments witness chile. Communism is not stalinism, therefore not totalitarian, it is only capitalists who insist this. It is the lie of the oppressor who is totalitarian and tries to silence opposition by discrediting their ideas with
false attributes.

Forever capitalism

20th February 2002, 12:04

so you are now moving away from Marx's theory which Marxism is based on, the system you adhere to by declaring revolution is not needed or the establishement of communism. Simply reform in favour of the working class that will still exist under capitalism. Correct?

peaccenicked

20th February 2002, 12:14

1 Capitalism=few capitalist ruling majotity working class

2 workers state=majority workers ruling few capitalists

3 socialism=classless society
anything that leads 1 to 2 is a revolution
peaceful or violent, we prefer peace.
reforms within capitalism can help workers too, we support them.

Moskitto

20th February 2002, 18:57

1) How do you explain every communist country in the world being virtually totalitarian then? The non-existence of a true communist state is proof that it can not exist. The power always take control over the easily abused system.

Precisely, no truely communist regime has ever existed.

2) Why is the rallying call of so many "Fuck the rich bastards" "Go play with your money" "Rich bastards"

I don't know, it's not my rallying call

3) Your reply sounds like anarchy which is impossible because someone will always form a system of control.

Freedom within reason. eg. going to the gym is ok, but say, going around killing people because of their skin colour isn't.

4) Your just begging the question.

All voices equal=democracy, that's the way Athens did it.

Imperial Power

20th February 2002, 21:07

Moskitto so you agree a communist state is impossible to form because of the vulnerabilty. I think if you took a poll on this web site half would say they hate rich Americans when the majority are not even rich. You are agreeing democaracy is the best as well.

Moskitto

20th February 2002, 21:12

Yes I do agree that democracy is best over dictatorship.
But I also agree that socialism is best over capitalism.

peaccenicked

21st February 2002, 02:05

IP you never listen, look at my quote from aristotle.
I have been arguing for democracy all the time
you have been arguing against stalinism
you seemed to recognise that once then forgot.
You dont listen to anyone who refutes the idea that communism is stalinism.
you have the idea stuck in your head like a mantra.
It was placed in your head by the totalitarian system in the US which fakes pluralism.
I am for pluralism where no party is priviledged by wealth. It is only fair and the only definition of democracy that means anything decent.
Most of my life I have argued against stalinism and capitalism.
I've every right to take it as an insult when you impute the ideas and practices of my enemy apon me.
This is as I have said to FC a totalitarian method.
you defend capitalism, and insist there is no alternative,
. I say there is an alternative to capitalism,and stalinism, and that is democratic socialism.
Try to argue against what people really stand for.
and the vast majority here are anti stalinist.
Why not try to argue against our real ideas and not
your cold war visions.
how would you like it if I kept on equating your
views on christianity with the Spanish Inquisition.
How many times do I need to ask you this question before you will answer it?

Imperial Power

21st February 2002, 02:07

What's your question?

peaccenicked

21st February 2002, 02:20

how would you like it if I kept on equating your
views on christianity with the Spanish Inquisition?

Nateddi

21st February 2002, 02:33

Quote: from peaccenicked on 3:05 am on Feb. 21, 2002

vast majority here are anti stalinist

vast majority, eh? Who here supports Stalinism? anyone?

Imperial Power

21st February 2002, 02:39

Peace I would Christianity has had violent past.

peaccenicked

21st February 2002, 02:42

what if I kept on insisting your views were associated
with that violent past?

Imperial Power

21st February 2002, 03:07

Peace what if I kept insisting because of your vews you enjoy hurting other people, starving them, and exploiting them for cheap labor.

Hmm, these are the common arguments against me. Do I support any of it NO, does it need to exist for free market capitalism NO. But it's the nature of the debate. To take a view, associates you with everything it is known for real or made up.

If you told me you were a Nazi but didn't want to kill the Jews. People would still use every attrocity the Nazi's commited against you.

peaccenicked

21st February 2002, 03:21

If you say you are a christian
and I insist that you supported the spanish inquisition
what would you say.
If you told me you were a christian who did not want
to torture people.
using your logic I could not believe you.

vox

21st February 2002, 04:26

"the very nature of human beings prevents communism from working."

Ah, once again we have the absurd "human nature" argument.

What is a human's nature? Indeed, is it possible to determine, given the contradictory behaviors of human beings historically and cross-culturally? I don't think so, and I think that the people who wish to make us believe it are essentialist nay-sayers whose egocentric views blind them to the manifest variations of human interaction.

Indeed, I've asked this of you capitalist sympathizers before, and I'll ask again now: Is it human nature to gove allegiance to a lord, as was done under Feudalism? If so, then how can you explain the rise of capitalism, which replaced Feudalism?

Which behavior is "correct?" Which is in our "nature?"

Neither, of course. But, I'm sure, once again no capitalist sympathizer will dare answer me. I've asked repeatedly, but the right-wingers are, for once, silenced.

vox

poncho

21st February 2002, 04:43

The cost of production for pretty much every product made in the U.S.A is massive with very little return. In order to get a better return on money invested American business needs third world country's for cheap labor, materials etc etc. When a government comes along with a bunch of socialist ideals to improve life in the third world and they look to "foreign business" to pay for social programs suddenly they are evil communists!

peaccenicked

21st February 2002, 12:54

Quote: from Imperial Power on 4:07 am on Feb. 21, 2002
Peace what if I kept insisting because of your vews you enjoy hurting other people, starving them, and exploiting them for cheap labor.

Hmm, these are the common arguments against me. Do I support any of it NO, does it need to exist for free market capitalism NO. But it's the nature of the debate. To take a view, associates you with everything it is known for real or made up.

If you told me you were a Nazi but didn't want to kill the Jews. People would still use every attrocity the Nazi's commited against you.

This whole argument is bolderdash.............horse pish.
I think using an argument one or twice against your
disposition as a modern capitalist which infers things that you can easily deny subjectively is nowhere near using the same subterfuge in every post.
your view associates you with what you want it.
That is fundamental freedom of speech
If you are continually falsely accused, how do you get to be yourself. What you do is stifle and this a societal norm under capitalism and stalinism.
That is a cheap shot about nazism
there texts of nazism which are anti semitic.
I challenge you to find anything in marx or lenin that support suppression of dissent, torture, genocide,
etc attributes of Stalinism. If you cannot substantiate your falsehood, then you have told a lie.
And what you will never answer is how can an idea about sharing the world lead logically to torture,genocide and suppression of dissent?

(Edited by peaccenicked at 1:56 pm on Feb. 21, 2002)

El Che

21st February 2002, 20:35

I want reform. And i want democracy. But its is only possible to do so much within the capitalist system, because this system is by nature organised thieft of many by few. The system in its self is imoral and evil. So logicaly after we reform it we must scrap it and get a new one, where exploitation is ilegal. I defend this process and i defend it within a democratic context, always. This means i defend it if the majority is with me. I am not vaguardist.

I challenge all the capitalist suporters of this bb to show me the totaliterianism in my views

(Edited by El Che at 9:38 pm on Feb. 21, 2002)

El Che

22nd February 2002, 22:13

i want an answer right wingers so u better start thinking!!

vox

24th February 2002, 00:59

El Che,

I believe that you'll find, just like no one answered my point about human "nature," no one will answer you.

Much like the talking Barbie ("Math is hard) you'll find that when right-wingers are truly challenged ("It's too hard to answer) they will ignore you. If you keep asking, you, too, can be the subject of a thread, "The El Che resolution!!!"

Perhaps we should form a club. People too scary for the right-wingers to answer! Hee!

I, like you, am still awaiting a response, but I doubt the right-wing braintrust here is capable of offering one.

vox

reagan lives

24th February 2002, 04:47

Indeed. The entire conservative community is stricken with fear of someone who can't spell "totalitarianism" and a babbling egomaniacal cretin.

Or you might not get an answer because everyone here is wondering who exactly called you a totalitarian.

As for the "human nature" bullshit, I was going to let that go because I believe that it's one of the weaker arguments against communism (there are so many strong ones). But it's basically shorthand for saying that people like to be people...which is to say that there needs to be separation between the state and the individual for the individual to exist at all. One's work, while benefitting the society which in turn protects the individual, must still have individual benefits. People would rather have their labor benefit their children than have it benefit someone else's children. This doesn't make them evil or selfish, it makes them human.

vox

24th February 2002, 07:03

Reagan Lies,

Exactly how, philophically, did you counter the human nature argument in your daft response?

Indeed, saying that people like one thing over another does not answer, at all, the challenge, for you isolate your argument to a single economic and political system, which is the very thing I claim is needed for any argument of human nature.

Hee!

You didn't even understand the question, did you?

HEEHEEHEE!!!!!

Again, Reagan Lies. What is the essential "Human Nature" of human beings?

It's a question you pretend to answer, but prefer to ignore.

Coward.

vox

vox

3rd March 2002, 09:35

WELL?

vox

3rd March 2002, 09:39

Once again, I've left the little reagan liar speechless!

HEEHEEHEEHEE!!!

Is it just me, or are these right-wingers a lot like toys?

vox

AgustoSandino

3rd March 2002, 10:17

Wow vox, you really are a moron?

Where does Reagan "pretend" to define human nature?
Rather than waste his time on such an irrelevant question, reagan notes that the anti-communistic argument based on "human nature" are hardly the most effective that can be raised.
Furthermore, since the simple principles of empiricism would indicate that humans, perhaps by nature, prefer capitalist individualism, the responsibility for this argument lies on your back. It is you that must convince, not just us, but the world, that if there is such a thing as human nature it is compatible with socialism. A difficult task as history attest the opposite.

El Che

3rd March 2002, 13:17

oh look, isnt that qute, one starts posting and the other shows up to help! hee!:) i guess they must stay in touch...

RL perhaps you, as representative of the "conservative community"(sic) would like to answer my question. Review this topic, or at least my initial post, and show me where i am wrong. Please do, OH PLEASE TRY! i would love it, but alas i have a feeling all im going to get is personal insult shit. Show me the totalitArianism in my position, i beg you. If u cant, you should never ever bring that point again where i am concerned. On the issue of human nature, it is the right that uses such an arguement against a certain faction of the left, therefor it is apon it that the burned of its proof/defenition falls. Interesting task to say the least. Neither can it be showen that what "of nature" is desirable, can it? Perhaps you people defend the law of the jungle... Survival of the fitest eh? Oh and i mean it in the literal sense, since from your point of view what is of nature is what should be of pratice. All rational thought, and only from ration thought may come "unatural" behavior, out the window eh? You people really should think about what you say before you say it. You really should. Because you know, when you say one thing, you raise in infinit number of issues related to that same thing. I dont expect you to understand, nop. But please answer the fooking question. ok?

El Che

4th March 2002, 19:44

Where are my answers? still thinking? Or perhaps its time for the El Che resolution?

My answers people!! concentrate!! focuss!!

reagan lives

4th March 2002, 19:57

Read very closely, El Che...I'm not going to say this again...

I AM NOT CALLING YOU A TOTALITARIAN. I NEVER DID. I DON'T KNOW WHO DID, BUT I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM. SATISFIED? GET OVER YOUR FUCKING INDIGNATION AND PARANOIA AND JOIN THE REST OF THE GODDAMN CIVILIZED WORLD.

As for vox, I made it pretty clear that I don't believe in the "human nature" argument against communism. I never said that I could define "human nature," nor did I ever, ever posit its existence. I realize that you have to delude yourself and willfully misinterpret things to maintain your fragile ego, but I also think it's pretty clear that nobody on this board short of El Che has the slightest sliver of respect for your posturing. I, however, think you're quite funny. Hee.

El Che

4th March 2002, 20:13

Quote from El Che:
"Please do, OH PLEASE TRY! i would love it, but alas i have a feeling all im going to get is personal insult shit."

Yup just like I thought. Your full of hot air son, I understand it frustrates you that I insist you people stand by what you say, but if I may say so your a little paranion your self. Perhaps you think im talking to you directly, is that it? thats what ticked you off? lol poor thing. Im actualy talking to all you idiots that say communism=stalinism.

There however something of substance in your idiotic post. Wana know what? ok. That you give up both arguements. RL adimts im right in both counts. I am a socialist and yet im a not a fascist, and he can not show me human nature. So I guess im done with you. hee!