Capitalism is the superior system

[Forever capitalism]

Firstly i must say how disenchanted i am that people still adhere to a system so inane and unrealistic as communism. Hasn't over 80 years of communism around the world proven that everyone it is a failure, a dictatorship, a lack of food and resources and a burden upon every person bar leaders who reap the benefits of exploitation. Capitalism has, does and will continue to provide for the world everything that it requires. Communist is a jest, that only exists in your minds and fantasies.

[Revolution Hero]

Well, I see , that your intellect is not ready for the superior system, by the name of COMMUNISM. Communism has a great future.
What about those 80 years, I' ll say U , that capitalist countries have done everything in order to ruin socialism, because of their fear of loosing their fucking control over people , living in their countries; fear of loosing their fucking BIG BUCKS. iF THE RIVALRY BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT SYSTEMS HAD NOT EXIST COMMUNISM WOULD HAVE CONQUERED THE WHOLE WORLD! Just imagine that!
All U fucking capitalist bustards are guilty!!!
Red scare and fear, fear and fear again!!! Why have U been scared fucking cowards, since, as you say, communism is just an illusion. Sure, U wouldn't fear illusion!

[Forever capitalism]

good to see you wrote a professional, rational and thoughtful response. If you love socialism so much go live in a socialist country, with a one party state, a dictatorship, censorship on the press. You wouldn't be allowed to debate the wonders of capitalism in Cuba would you? The fact that you have access to communist books is because of capitalism, that encourages free speech. Think before you swear

[libereco]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 10:59 am on Feb. 12, 2002
good to see you wrote a professional, rational and thoughtful response. If you love socialism so much go live in a socialist country, with a one party state, a dictatorship, censorship on the press. You wouldn't be allowed to debate the wonders of capitalism in Cuba would you? The fact that you have access to communist books is because of capitalism, that encourages free speech. Think before you swear

One more foolish "Capitalist" who wouldn't see the difference between Socialism and a totalitarian Regime if it hit him in the face.
Supression of freedom of speech and press have nothing to do with communism. Sadly it happened in a lot of so called communist countries. And there are many totalitarian communists sadly...
But hey, are you from the USA?
Because if you are you should not speak about supression of debates and so on. I've visited your schools, wich teach things from their own little viewpoint. An opposition there is noticible. Even though it's there it's not heard.

go live in a true democracy at least before you speak about it.

[Forever capitalism]

Oh i see, so you are saying it is sad that communist regimes that came to power suddenly became totalitarian?? What, all of them? Every single one? lol So you don't believe in communism in practice just in theory cause it has never worked in practice. Is that what you are saying? Have you noticed how when a president in a capitalist country runs for election he has an opponet. Mmmmmm new concept for communists who simply crush or kill their opponent. It isn't mere coinscidence that all communist regimes turned totalitarian. You have to be smarter then that. You must distinguish between reality and fantasy.

[libereco]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 12:20 pm on Feb. 12, 2002
Oh i see, so you are saying it is sad that communist regimes that came to power suddenly became totalitarian?? What, all of them? Every single one? lol So you don't believe in communism in practice just in theory cause it has never worked in practice. Is that what you are saying? Have you noticed how when a president in a capitalist country runs for election he has an opponet. Mmmmmm new concept for communists who simply crush or kill their opponent. It isn't mere coinscidence that all communist regimes turned totalitarian. You have to be smarter then that. You must distinguish between reality and fantasy.

1. In America (are you american?) there is no real opponent. Both of your canidates are essentially the same. Thats why so few people vote. (great democracy)
2.There have been communist parties who won democratic elections. (Nicaragua...in Vietnam they were about to) And guess what, in those cases outside forces (such as the USA) destroyed the democracy and executed force in order to stop the Democratically elected government from taking power. So as an American don't speak of democracy until you stop living in a fantasy world.
3. I believe in Socialism. I don't believe in Dictatorships. I am a liberitrarian Socialist (if you want to call me that). Comprende?

Your capi friends here also argue that true Lassez Faire Capitalism never existed...go bite in their asses.

a little quote wich might explain to you what i believe in:

"We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." [The Political Philosophy of Bakunin, p. 269]

[Reuben]

You reffered to every single communist regime which came to power.

Have you ever heard of Nicuragua and Chile. These were places where marxist regimes came to power, maintained democracy and were ended, not by contradictions and problems in their own system but instead by anti-democratic U.S. foreign policy.

GFurthermore you only have to look to your own theoroticians to realise that it is you capis who are liveing in a fairy land. Adam Smith, like other capitalist ideologues asserted that "The market would provide" and yet after 150 years of capitalism trying to reform itself we see that for a huge proportiion of the worlds population capitalism is instituting the opposite.


Reuben

[Forever capitalism]

You bring up the point of Chile and Nicaragua. Firstly the Sadinistas were voted out through democracy after their attrocious crimes and murders would no longer be accepted by the people. Salvador Allende was single handedly ruining the country, which forced a coup, one that i don't support nor do i blame on the forces of capitalism as Pinochet instigated it himself. I am not american and don't accuse me as been one or abuse me. That is immature. That is what commies tend to do, not being enough that they wrecked every country they have been in. Capitalism is successful, Africa, South America and parts of Asia aren't properly capitalist, as in industrialised with a strong working class. Their failures are not based on capitalism. More so on communism as Angola, Libya and Somalia will attest too. Isn't it ironic that where communist regimes have been voted by the people through a capitalis, democratic, electoral process, according to Marxist theory they are to destroy the democratic process which was responsible for their ascendency to power. In Nicaragua the sadinistas weren't voted in by the way. So where is communism now??? Cuba? North Korea and Vietnam are really flying the flag aren't they?

[Megan]

Also in so called democate countries
people are starving !
Look at Cuba. When it has been
supported by the former Soviet
Union they had a very good
health system, education system, etc.
Much better than in every South American/
Latin American country ... and may
be better than in some states
of the US. When the system in the
Soviet Union broke down and no
further support came over, the situation
for the people in Cuba became worse.
That's for "good life" in a democarcy, ha !

[libereco]

i don't have much time to reply now. I just want to apologize for assuming you were an US citizen, and if you felt abused then I'm sorry for that as well.

[Imperial Power]

Welcome to the board Forever Capitalism

Libreco you should read some of the other threads where I have shown that a totalitarian regime is the direct result of communism and the powerful taking control. As you always argue that true communism has never existed, it can never exist. There will always dictators trying to take control of weak. The communist government is corrupt as can be seen all over the world. A classless society is impossible to create, no matter what the government.

[Nateddi]

The is nothing about totalitarianism in Marx's or Lenin's writings. We must learn from the past to get to and past the stage of dictatorship of the proletariat (meaning that the working class dictates over the bourgeosie until they are supressed, not a dictator dictates everyone)

[Reuben]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 1:39 pm on Feb. 12, 2002
Salvador Allende was single handedly ruining the country, which forced a coup, one that i don't support nor do i blame on the forces of capitalism as Pinochet instigated it himself.


O.K. a simple point here.

What system was augusto pinochet a proponent of ?

Capitalism.

The C.I.A. backed the Coup. What system were the CIA proponents of?

Capitalism.

Therefore does it make sense for Forever Capitalism to say "Pinochet backed the coup himself so I don't blame the forces of capitalism"?

In a word, NO.




Therefore who insti

[Thine Stalin]

Communism is doomed to fall pray to capitalists eager to take advantage of the system, china in point, china has been driven to a half way state, because of capitalists, The Soviet Union began turning into this after stalin's death, sure there was still plenty of hatred and the cold war last long past Stalin's death but it was then that it became its return to capitalism. People in America will not see that capitalism is a lesser system to communism until the majority of americans become victims of their own praised system. Socialism is good for the moment, but once they get money in their pockets again it will turn back to capitalism, Which is why a Stalinist regieme is necessary, to deter this, notice it took many years after his death, to make the people become restless and wish for capitalism again. Like a good teacher stalin was ruthless and effective into instilling things into his pupils, They cried when he died, the man that had killed 5 million of their countrymen, he had earned the respect of his rivals, and those of his people that hated him, unlike a wimpy teacher that allowed them to do as they pleased, and kept giving way (gorbechev) Stalinism is the future for a communist world

[Moskitto]

I don't think a Stalinist system is neccesary.

People deep down don't actually care what system it is as long as the secret police don't come round in the middle of the night and arrest them and they have their physcological needs forfilled.


their attrocious crimes and murders

Well, In civil wars people die. The British system did some pretty nasty things when it was trying to overthrow annother system, I mean, ransaking Leicester and killing people is murder as well.

[Forever capitalism]

np, thanks Imperial Power
Totalitarianism is closer to communism as it is to capitalism, you see capitalism involves democracy where people vote, communism doesn't. Hence similarity.

[Forever capitalism]

no problem libereco :)

[Revolution Hero]

Well, voting system did exist in the former Soviet Union.
What about Stalin's dictatorship, I will say , that it was necessary at that time.
You say that , there is true democracy in capitalist countries, there is freedom of speech and all shit. What about communist parties? Communist party was suppressed in the US and other capitalist countries. And that is the true FREEDOM, huh???
Who sit in the US parliament? Republicans and Democrats! There is no place for communists. Capitalists vote for capitalists. In the Soviet Union the situation was similar , but with a big difference communists voted for communists, as there was no one , who would be capitalist!
The picture, showing freedom is the same!

[Revolution Hero]

Well, voting system did exist in the former Soviet Union.
What about Stalin's dictatorship, I will say , that it was necessary at that time.
You say that , there is true democracy in capitalist countries, there is freedom of speech and all shit. What about communist parties? Communist party was suppressed in the US and other capitalist countries. And that is the true FREEDOM, huh???
Who sit in the US parliament? Republicans and Democrats! There is no place for communists. Capitalists vote for capitalists. In the Soviet Union the situation was similar , but with a big difference communists voted for communists, as there was no one , who would be capitalist!
The picture, showing freedom is the same!

[Revolution Hero]

Well, voting system did exist in the former Soviet Union.
What about Stalin's dictatorship, I will say , that it was necessary at that time.
You say that , there is true democracy in capitalist countries, there is freedom of speech and all shit. What about communist parties? Communist party was suppressed in the US and other capitalist countries. And that is the true FREEDOM, huh???
Who sit in the US parliament? Republicans and Democrats! There is no place for communists. Capitalists vote for capitalists. In the Soviet Union the situation was similar , but with a big difference communists voted for communists, as there was no one , who would be capitalist!
The picture, showing freedom is the same!

[Revolution Hero]

Well, voting system did exist in the former Soviet Union.
What about Stalin's dictatorship, I will say , that it was necessary at that time.
You say that , there is true democracy in capitalist countries, there is freedom of speech and all shit. What about communist parties? Communist party was suppressed in the US and other capitalist countries. And that is the true FREEDOM, huh???
Who sit in the US parliament? Republicans and Democrats! There is no place for communists. Capitalists vote for capitalists. In the Soviet Union the situation was similar , but with a big difference communists voted for communists, as there was no one , who would be capitalist!
The picture, showing freedom is the same!

[Forever capitalism]

No need to post the same remarks three times, unless you don't feel as if your message is getting through to people, mainly because we are distinguish between lies and truth. Nobody prevents or prohobits communists from printing newspapers, magazines, forming parties, even creating websites like these. They hold the same rights as everybody else. If you wanted to start a communist party then go ahead by law, capitalist law you are entitled to that, as we practice freedom of speech and expression. The fact that we allow websites like this is a token to our freedom loving ways. In the Soviet Union and other parts of the world anit-totalitarian articles and voices were quashed. Surely you can see the difference. Nobody stops communists from voicing their opinions, in communist/totalitarian countries they were murdered for their opinions.

[peaccenicked]

I know you hate reading or trying to understand anything but your right to mentally masturbate .
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...rum=22&topic=14 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=14)

[Forever capitalism]

In capitalist societies, if there is so much limitations on speech and expression etc then how did in Chile they allow a Socialist party to form and present it as a main candidate and eventual winner of a national election. Doesn't this prove that capitalism allows communist/totalitarian parties to co-exist with our capitalist countries. In communism/totalitarianism there is a ONE party policy. Think about that and this time think of something by yourself without cut and pasting links

[peaccenicked]

In chile the US bombed the presidential palace of the democratically elected socialist president Allende.
He was replaced by the US supported Pinochet under which thousands "disappearred"

[Thine Stalin]

Forever capitalism, I just want to slap you silly, you're using pathetic arguements, and the ones that have been used so many times that its just pointless now, 'communism doesn't have any freedom' says WHO? Communists have the freedom to recieve free health care and education, do capitalists? Didn't think so

[Nateddi]

Freedom of speech is a capitalist lie indeed. IMO under a communist society in theory, it will be legal to form criticism websites and radio. It should be encouraged IMO. I can understand that there may need to be measures (especially early on in society) to protect the revolution by using force and jails to supress the oposition. You may not know it, but when a serious attempt at socialism is made, the US govt secretely 'takes care of it'. As I stated before, communism isnt the same as it was in the USSR, we must learn from the past, considering that the failure of communist countries was not because of a flawed theory, but because of exploiting that theory in practice. We need to learn from the past.

[vox]

FC,

I'm afraid that you sound quite silly in thinking that Chile somehow "wanted" or "needed" to be overthrown by Pinochet, and, I think, if you read the history of US involvement in the area, which is quite well documented, you may wish to correct your assertion.

Too, you may wish to look that the history of US involvement in Nicaragua, and find just why the Sandinistas, who won, by all accounts but that of the US, a free and fair election (in fact, the only suggestion of electoral fraud was aimed at the US), were, years later, finally voted out.

Too, you may want to look at the very recent history of Aristide in Haiti, which is a prime example of US intervention in "democracy."

The bald fact is that whenever the poor vote someone in, the rich, in the guise of US foriegn policy for the most part, "elect" them OUT.

One has to wonder, of course, if socialism is inevitably doomed to failure, why the US and other Northern and Western nations spend so much money trying to defeat its democratic ways?

vox

[Moskitto]

Communist/Totalitarian

The socialist party in Chile isn't a totalitarian party. You're confusing opposites.

[Forever capitalism]

The mere fact that a Chilean communist party existed in a capitalist nation proves freedom of speech. In communism, a one party policy that ensures dictators there is no room for argument, for debate, for change. Sure in Cuba they have free healthy care and education, but what was the price of that? They sold their souls to the dictator Castro who has been there 42 years. Do you think he lives in the same conditions as them????? Communism theory isn't even right with the emergence of a middle class, the most populous of all classes. Marx was narrowminded in thinking there were merely two classes, a populous middle class allows for greater equality and no such thing as "class struggle". No communist revolution was started by the working class, just by rebels wanting to cemet their place in history as brutal and repressive dictators. Hence Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc

[Nateddi]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 5:18 am on Feb. 14, 2002
The mere fact that a Chilean communist party existed in a capitalist nation proves freedom of speech. In communism, a one party policy that ensures dictators there is no room for argument, for debate, for change. Sure in Cuba they have free healthy care and education, but what was the price of that? They sold their souls to the dictator Castro who has been there 42 years. Do you think he lives in the same conditions as them????? Communism theory isn't even right with the emergence of a middle class, the most populous of all classes. Marx was narrowminded in thinking there were merely two classes, a populous middle class allows for greater equality and no such thing as "class struggle". No communist revolution was started by the working class, just by rebels wanting to cemet their place in history as brutal and repressive dictators. Hence Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc

There is a difference between stretching the truth, and being completely wrong. For the most part, you are completely wrogn.

In a true communist society, there would be no serious attempt at capitalism considering that it would be against the VAST majority's opinion. A communist revolution includes a timeperiod called "dictatorship of the proletariat" meaning that the proletariat must supress the capitalists from regaining after the revolution by ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. Continuing, after the bourgeoisie have layed off, the state is supposed to dissappear. In a normal communist society, there is no need for dictatorship, there is no need to reduce freedom of speech, there is a difference between a plan to overthrow the communist government and just critisizing the policies (which should be encouraged). Once again, learn from the past, study the doctrines, and study current events. You will find out that socialism isn't only possible, moreover it is enevitable. Don't BS me with "no such thing as class struggle" that just proves how narrow minded YOU are. Why not study the history of the glorious revolutions, you don't know much considering that you called Lenin a violent dictator. I would say the only person that fits that discription is Stalin, however Fidel and Mao did some questionable things too. Revolutions are always driven by the people that are tired of oppression. On this forum, an open mind is welcomed, however not required.

[Forever capitalism]

Oh you don't think that Lenin was a dictator, and Fidel and Mao ONLY did questionable things??? I think you need a brush up on history. Have you heard of the Terror after the 1917 revolution. Heard of how after Lenin decided to hold national elections for the national assembley the Bolsheviks weren't even a frontrunner so he terminated it. Mao alone is responsible for the deaths of approximately 60 million people. Fidel has establish Hitler, err i mean Communist Youth, tortures political prisoners and has ruled for 42 years. See you are basing all your knowledge on baseless doctirnes that have been refuted by history. It seems that the dictatorship of the proletarian merely turned out to be a dictatorship of one onto the rest.

[Revolution Hero]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 8:12 pm on Feb. 13, 2002
No need to post the same remarks three times, unless you don't feel as if your message is getting through to people, mainly because we are distinguish between lies and truth. Nobody prevents or prohobits communists from printing newspapers, magazines, forming parties, even creating websites like these. They hold the same rights as everybody else. If you wanted to start a communist party then go ahead by law, capitalist law you are entitled to that, as we practice freedom of speech and expression. The fact that we allow websites like this is a token to our freedom loving ways. In the Soviet Union and other parts of the world anit-totalitarian articles and voices were quashed. Surely you can see the difference. Nobody stops communists from voicing their opinions, in communist/totalitarian countries they were murdered for their opinions.




Then , why don't I see communist party in the US parliament? Sure because of their unpopularity up in the states. US censorship will not give the way for a communist propaganda to go into the masses.
What about popularity, I am sure that communist would have gained it, if that crap about communism had not been written in the school History books.
I used to know an ordinary American woman , being far away from politics, who one time asked me:" Why they say that communism is so bad??? For me, it is much better than what we have here in the states!"
And I am sure , that many of hard working Americans will think the same, if they really think about their life.

[Forever capitalism]

The fact remains if somebody wishes to establish a communist party they are entitled and permitted too. In communism they are barred and repressed. You can't refute that point. Communism has failed everywhere it has been established. Another fact, that is why you see North Korea having famine and Cuba rationing everything from oil to bread. It is ridiculous the way people are forced to live, subsist even under communists regimes. Capitalism has proved to be successful in industrialised nations. It works hence its hegemony over all other philosophies and doctrines.

[peaccenicked]

I think we have to sort out your reading skills first.
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...rum=22&topic=41 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=41)

[Moskitto]

Have you heard of the Terror after the 1917 revolution.

Ever heard of the terror after Cromwell's revolution? or the terror after Robespiere's revolution? These are capitalist revolutions, they had terror as well.

[Moskitto]

Salvador Allende was single handedly ruining the country, which forced a coup, one that i don't support nor do i blame on the forces of capitalism as Pinochet instigated it himself.

Well, It seems pretty strange that when Margaret Thatcher turned her country into a 24/7 roit, it didn't become a military dictatorship. Then again Thatcher was the ultimate neo-liberal so that woul exclude US involvement.

[Guest]

i think u have to ask urself this question: what makes a system successful? do u consider a system successful if it is apparently good to the society it is installed in? do u think its right to have a few dozens of families around in one country that together have more than 50% of all the worlds money? u surely cannot! u cannot certainly argue that they earned all that money, if u know that most of the worlds population have to work like slaves just to get a few slices of bread... tragically this is the predominant scenario that exists today, which not only is ignored by capitalism but also enforced by it because they know they can spend less money by hiring those people to work for them, thus increasing profits... does this sound like a fair, honest and just system to you? in the world of today u cant possibly come up with a system that cares only about its own society..it has to care about the whole world, if it truly wishes to improve things and evolve in a peaceful world.
i read a brief leaflet once that compared the world to a village of 100 people. in that village, 3 people had a good education, 1 had a computer, 70 didnt have enough water to drink and (if i remember correctly) 85 were starving.. now i admit i could be somewhat wrong about these figures since i have a short memory but im quite certain that they're pretty close. now what is the slogan of capitalism? buy buy buy sell sell sell money money money... do u think ur corporations give a shit about these people? sure they do, they want to exploit there asses off for money money money and more money. how da hell do u think u can manage to live ur happy little life with a car a nice house, cheap gas, more than plenty of food on ur plate, and hundreds more of other luxurious items, like a table for example, laying around in ur room? do u think u earn more money doing ur job than someone who has to work all day long at a dirty noisy polluted decaying factory, just to get something to eat??? does that sound like human rights to you? justice and equality for all? jesus christ and then there are those of u who wonder how come there are people who hates the united states. correction...u dont wonder...they're evil doers, freedom hating, bad bad bad people who just cant stand democracy...for crying out loud if u knew half the shit that is going on in this world because of ur great capitalism u'd swallow ur own words in an instant.

im not defending communism, i dont agree with some of its ideals. im a libertarian socialist. capitalism isnt working, unless ur a selfish hipocrit arrogant motherfucking dipshit who deep down just wants to buy another car and some more tables to pile up just so it looks nice. Sure, thats what all of us want.. we all want to live nice and happy. but do we really want to do it at the cost of other peoples lives? are we worth it? are we better?...

this is already way too long of a post, although there are still many things left out to say. i urge you, as one citizen of the world to another, and at the risk of sounding condescendent, please inform urself better about the world, about what is going on and why. watching tv or reading newspaper is certainly not enough, especially if u live in the west, where most of that belongs to corporations that just care about profit, profit and more profit.

im sorry for my insults, but i simply cant talk about this and remain calm, because this is overwhelmingly disturbing.

[El Che]

well said guest, however one must stay clam for the sake of his peace of mind. I hope u join us, you would be most wellcome.

[Thine Stalin]

You assume all communist nations are the same, that communism automatically equals oppression, I feel sad for people like you that have been Regan-ized, Yes maybe some communist leaders do oppress their people's does that automatically mean that all do? Some capitalists believe that killing half a million iraqi's destroying hospitals and wrecking their only baby milk factory is good and helps the world, does that mean they are the only capitalists, the majority of capitalists are liars, crooks and oppertunists, does that mean you are? Probably, but lets not just assume everything..

[Forever capitalism]

I do know of the terror after those mentioned Moskitto. Many Marxists argue that the French revolution was a bourgeoisie revolution so you can't blame that on capitalism. France weren't even capitalist then as feudalism still existed. But then again i don't hold Robesspiere as my hero and make web sites dedicated to him like others do i. Lenin, Mao, Guevara, Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro and many more all murdered millions of people combined yet are regarded as hero of the poor. That is nonsense, these people were living in mansions when the population was rationing food and fighting wars for their failed doctrines!
Also people are quick to jump on the fact that Pinochet's ascendency to power had something to do with the CIA, yet forget or ignore entirely the 3 Soviet/Communist invasions, firstly on a socialist ally as Hungary and Czechoslovakia as well as Afghanistan. All unpopular wars that showed the interventionist stance that the USSR conviently followed to furhter stretch their control and consolidate it.
In all those countries opposition to communism was ripe and popular yet the USSR acting in it's communist, moral way invaded them and established puppet governments that exploited them and sent all their resources straight to the greedy and filthy hands of the Soviet Union.

[Guest]

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

-- Julius Caesar


...déjà vu

[Moskitto]

No there wasn't terror after the French revolution. I mean killing people because they didn't have blisters on their hands and therefore upper class isn't terror is it.

And yes there was terror after the Civil War. the Puritans banned people from going to church and attacked people who disagreed with them. Then again Puritans moan about oppression yet when they went to America to find religious tolerence they killed the Quakers.

Pol Pot isn't a hero of communists, If you don't like communists you should learn more about them. That statement clearly shows you lack knowledge about communists. Annother thing, The Soviet "Invasion" of Afghanistan wasn't actually an invasion. Afghanistan asked the Soviet Union to help them fight guerilla fighters. It wasn't an invasion because both sovereign powers involved were fighting on the same side.

[Forever capitalism]

Don't be as so ignorant as to think that Afghanistan wanted the Soviets. I guess Hungary in 56 and Czechoslovakia in 68 "wanted" them too huh? It was an invasion, plain and simple.

[Moskitto]

Afghanistan had a "communist" government which was allied to the Soviets, It was not an international war because both governments involved were on the Same side, US propaganda tells people it was an invasion. In reality the Afghan government wanted help. the reason why the Soviets invaded Hungary and Czechoslovakia was they tried to follow an independant line which sadly Mr Kruschev and Brezhnev didn't like, They were invasions Afghanistan wasn't an invasion any more than the Vietnam war.

[peaccenicked]

All of the capitalists who post on this site say that the US
is the pinnacle of capitalism and the world should follow its example.
They recognise capitalism as an ideal were people have freedom of speech and opportunity, poverty is blamed on the poor. Socialism is equated with dictatorship, suppression of dissent and poverty.
When we point poverty they point to left wing propaganda, they seemed to be delude that there are no freedom of speech issues under capitalism. They have no idea of the extent of poverty in the usa, they
have no idea how capitalism works an economic system.
They have not sussed out Stalinism as an historical entity. They only see it as a propaganda tool.
In short they exude primarily intellectually dishonesty. When we get them near the reality of their transparent mental habits they hide, change the subject, or engage in personal attacks.
Not that they don't get any, theirs avoid reality, our is frustration at their transparent slipperiness.
.......................its going to be sorry I dont understand,
anything to avoid reality.
They have the methods of ideologues and not honest people looking for answers.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 11:49 pm on Feb. 16, 2002)

[MindCrime]

Capitalism is great....if your near the top. As the poor people who sleep in the streets, have no jobs, starve regularly, and have no futures. There's no hope for many of them. In a capitalist system, it is necessary that a portioan of the population remain jobless to facilitate the economy. "Go get a job, you bumb!" They cant, theyre arnt any.

Capitalism doesnt reward people who work hard, it rewards people who are greedy. I want this, I want that. Work hard at getting your neighbors money, the system smiles on that. The basic principle behind capitalism is greed, accumulation of wealth so you can have creature comforts you dont need to survive.

The problem is that all these Western capitalists hold ultra-individualst greed as their ultimate good. You are not the most important person in the world, you do not need a porche to live, and you dont need more money and a bigger wallet. Under the communist system, people are part of a greater work. You are not better than your fellow man, you are on the same level with him. You work together and you recieve together. There are no homeless or poor or starving, everyone is provided for.

Many many philosophers, from aristotle to lau tzu, agree that the simple life is best. You dont need all your creature comforts, theyre extrenuous. You spend you whole life working to get more stuff, only to die and realize you cant take it with you.

True, you do trade away personal freedoms to live in this society, but that is true of them all. You cannot kill or rape whom you please in any nation, and many have a draft or other such. Try going out and displaying your freedom to smoke a joint in front of the police, see where your liberty is when they drag you off to a prison cell. The cappies who laud personal freedom as the greatest achievement of the United States dont realize that freedom is a buzz word in American culture. If more people held freedom as dearly as they claim to, there would be a LOT more fundemental anarchists running around than there are now.

If you can get over the fact that you are not the center of the universe as well as your beserko-materialism, then you can enjoy a life in a communist system, where nobody is poor, and everyone has a place to live.

[Xanderbeaux]

i just wanted to ppoint out that not all americans share same views on capitalism

[Imperial Power]

Peace you make me laugh. You continualy demonstrate such text book psychological reactions. When you get frustrated you rationalize the information as being incorrect. Even a few rantings in your post "All of the capitalists who post on this site say that the US
is the pinnacle of capitalism and the world should follow its example" I'd like to see where this was said.

I have an idea for you peace. Talk to random people from communist countries or socialist and see how they like it. Then check immigratin rates to socialist/communist countries compared to capitalist countries.

[El Che]

lol... Whats a psychological reaction? and whats a immigratin rate?

Really IP your really really should abstain from discussing with peace. Your not at his level you see, so u dont understand what he is saying and you just make a fool out of your self. When i say your not at his level i dont mean he is better than you, no. I mean you obviously dont understand his discourse, if he where to "simplify" then you might be able to, but he doesnt have to and indeed shouldnt in some cases. Look ill tell you what, why dont you just read it over till you get it, use the dictionary and shit. Then you can talk.

[Forever capitalism]

I can you tell you now there are more people living in poverty or who were living in poverty until communism's collapse in communist nations. Cuba, North Korea where they can't obtain food, Vietnam. They aren't successful at all. Their crime and poverty are ridiculously high. These people ration their food. Not merely the the few, but everybody. They are all in the same lower class strata. It is a joke.
Capitalism rewards people for hard work. You have obviously contradicting yourself. In communism people shirk responsibility and let the weight of labour fall onto others without opposition from the system. In capitalism if you aren't prepared to work, you don't make money or earn enough to provide for yourself. Communism since everybody gets the same ration of food, one can not work at all and still receive the same as another. That is a fair system is it? Maybe that is why the economies don't work because people aren't prepared to toil in the fields for 15 hours a day to be rewarded with the same megear rations as somebody who does a quarter of the same work.

[peaccenicked]

all the capitalist on this site are liars.
and merely spout propaganda. They are not interested in reality only using stalinism as a propaganda tool.
Tell you what ask the 100,000 child prostitutes in the us what they think of capitalism. You sick bastard.

[MindCrime]

Cuba poor? It's kinda hard to make money when most of the world wont trade with you. Even through decades of trade embargo, theyre still growing economically and proving the strength of the communist economy.

Captalism rewards people who are greedy, not hard workers. Does the CEO who has an easy job work as hard as the farm hand who struggles to survive? Nope. Is he better off? Of course he is! Capitalism is economic dominance of the masses by the few.

People in the United States have it off excedingly well. They look at those poor poor people in communist nations and shed a tear for them. "Too bad they dont enjoy the freedoms we do, if only they wernt Red."

Got news for ya, most communist regimes overthrew dictatorships proped up by the United States. Thats where American wealth comes from. Hard work...opressing and looting the Third World. This may come as a shock but not all of the world is concerned with excessive wealth and physical gain. Some would actually perfer economic safety to beserko-materialism.

But ofcourse, those people are communists, and cant possible be right. Its so..so....unAmerican! And after all, modeling the US is what the rest of the world strives for....

[Nateddi]

Hey cappies, if you are going to use stalinism as a propaganda, use a dictator's tyranny as a tool against communism, why don't you tell me why people die each day from greatly hazardous working/living conditions because their/a near-by corporation is too much into making capital than giving health insurance or cleaning up working environment of their employees.

[alphaq]

Hey Forever Capitalism, some points for you to ponder:
1. If Communism is a flawed theory, then why did the US focus almost all of its military and economic efforts of the last 50 years to end it?
2. Was Cuba that much more successful under Capitalism? There was still wide spread poverty under the Batista regime, and seeing that the most economically powerful and influential country in the world - the US - has placed trade sanctions and embargoes on Cuba and forced most other countries to do the same, how do you expect Cuba to fare any better post-Batista?
3. In the first years after taking power, the most difficult thing to do is to maintain power. After Castro took power he had to eliminate any possibility of insurgency, meaning eliminating free press and rounding up dissidents. Need i remind you that the US did the same immediately after the American Revolution? Loyalists were often jailed and stripped of their businesses or expelled from the country. Now i agree that the US eventually abandoned this policy after the sovereignty and security of their country was established, but Cuba is still not at that point( nor do I think they will ever get there). Lets not forget what the US did with Arbenz's socialist-leaning regime in Guatemala: in addition to training insurgents they infiltrated the press with negative propoganda and droppped negative flyers all over the country, which eventually led to the downfall of the regime.

[Imperial Power]

"all the capitalist on this site are liars." - Peaccnicked

that's classic peace

[peaccenicked]

truth hurts but you have not got a brain so I see why your immune to your imbecile ways. So transparent its
hysterically funny, you really think anybody with an ounce of sense can't see through your pea soup thin
disguise of morality. the modern american horror show starring bush and you are a bit actor in a corn show
of standard that makes "Rosewell High" look good.
you arent even a good con man. 100% totally unconvincing. Capitalism is..............nothing like your ideals, there are no inalienable rights only bits of paper that this is written on. You are the biggest ninny
I have ever confronted.

[Da Shit]

ROTFLMAOL!!!!! CAPPIES PLEASE STOP UR KILLIN ME!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Forever capitalism]

Don't try and use excuses such as the embargo for Cuba's failed economy. The embargo only prevents America from trading with Cuba, everybody else is free to do so and does. The embargo only effects approximtely 2% of Cuba's economy yet you use it as propaganda, as an excuse as to why the communist economies failed.
Cuba hasn't progressed for 42 years. It rations food. How is that successful? America tried to prevent communist regimes coming to power because they wanted to protect and preserve freedom and justice in the world. They didnt' want to let totalitarian despots oppress people. This benevolent stance assisted countries by preserving their democracy, their wealth and freedoms. Everywhere communist/totalitarian regimes pop up there is a despot, who rules with an iron fist. Surely you can see that.
I noticed somebody, forgot who, mentioned that the CEO's get payed more then the workers. Well obviously, the CEO's dont' just sit in their offices all day and count the money. They organise their business, employ people, pay them fair wages to produce a product that meets the need to society. As it is their business and they started it off with their own money, it is only fair that they receive the profits as they are entitled. It's like you handing in an essay that was 100% yours but you made your friend type it up for it. The A+ that you receive then wouldn't be your mark it would be the person who simply typed it up. Is that fair?? Profit increases competition and quality and standard of living.

[Forever capitalism]

Correction in previous post, the a+ that you would receive, and that you obviously would be entitled to would be "shared equally" amongst you and the person that did .5% of it by typing it up. That is what Mind Crime is suggesting should happen.
Also if you have no contributions Da Shi# other than baseless abuse then go read your marx for beginners book and masterbate over a system that contains a ONE party policy, no democracy and failed economics. You obviously can't contribute because it seems you have no knowledge of this subject, as explains your immature and inane comment.

[alphaq]

forever cap, If I remember correctly the US coerced members of the OAS to pull out of their sugar deals w/ Cuba... correct me if im wrong

[Forever capitalism]

You mean the same way that the Socialist Bank established in 1964 and cominform and comecon established communist/totalitarian regimes and encouraged trade between only socialist countries, therefore excluding captialist nations. See the similarity?

[peaccenicked]

forever pompous,
what an interesting fairy tale.
you know nothing about history of american backed right wing dictators.
you dont seem to know that wall st backed hitler.
you know nothing of socialist theory, which states that
socialism must be victorious in the developed countries for it to work, so you pick on poor cuba.
you know nothing of poverty in the usa
or you would not that its success is not without huge human cost. You know nothing about democracy as it precludes priviledge.
That makes you in my book an ignorant dupe
covered in the blood of millions of people,
who your country has anihilated and been party to even more slaughter indirectly.

[Forever capitalism]

and what would my country be peacenicked?? You seem to know so much from your links. Go search the net for some articles that your life is based on. You are quick to criticise but have nothing to base your opinions on. Example, "You are stupid". End of reply. That is you, an immature, filthy mouth person who only replies with abuse and profanity. Rich.

[peaccenicked]

if i relied on a buse and profanity I would not be able to point out.
you know nothing about history of american backed right wing dictators.
you dont seem to know that wall st backed hitler.
you know nothing of socialist theory, which states that
socialism must be victorious in the developed countries for it to work, so you pick on poor cuba.
you know nothing of poverty in the usa
or you would not that its success is not without huge human cost. You know nothing about democracy as it precludes priviledge.

[Project Mayhem]

I thought for a moment that Forever Cap is right when is says that "you are stupid" is a faulty reply, but then I realized what is name was and I caught myself... Anyone that practically screams out their love of capitalism on a socialist message board has a few screws loose. No offense or anything, but... Well, actually, get offended. I don't care. Sue me, whydoncha, with yer superior justice system...
::mutters under breath::pig-dog yankee scum...

[alphaq]

But the socialist bank was set up in large part in response to a limited number of options due to embargoes from Capitalist countries. My point is that I think its hard for any system to survive - Capitalist, Communist, etc. without widespread cooperation. I mean, if the roles had been reversed, and the world had been predominately Communist for 200-odd years, the situation would be the same, don't you think? Imagine that a handful of nations switched to Capitalist while the rest of the world focused all of thier efforts to destroy capitalism. Certainly they would have a hard time standing on their own.

[poncho]

The Helms Burton Act was designed to punish non U.S business men for dealing with Cuba. Several Canadian companies have been blacklisted and their directors barred from entering/doing business with the U.S.A..Alot Canadian big companies want to do business in Cuba but are scarred due to the U.S. government potential backlash. The bill also has provisions for heavy sanctions against country's that heavily trade with Cuba. Canada depends on the U.S considering 85% of its exports are to the U.S. So if we trade on a large scale with Cuba we could suffer greatly.

Keep forgeting that I'm a Capitalist......

Cuba has lost 1.6Billion in exports directly related to the Helms Burton Act and the U.S government pressuring with threats of sanctions against small country's like Brazil.

All this because of pressure from criminal traitors in Miami who can vote in the USA and United Fruits soft political contributions to the Republican Party.

[Project Mayhem]

All that the embargo and subsequent violence with Cuba has done for U.S. citizens has made their flight arrangements more expensive... And some of them say "oh hell, I'll just find a new playground"... But, it has a great psychological effect on people in that region, as evidenced by all the refugees over the years...

[Forever capitalism]

The Helms Burton Act should have no relevance to Cuba if Cuba is communist. Communism doesn't advocate trading or doing business with entrepeurners that "exploit the workers". I sense a contradiction

[peaccenicked]

I am not just accusing forever dumb as being stupid
but of having the arrogance to display it as thought,
they are is nothing he says that does not suggest that he is not pulling off a fraud. The fraud of claiming knowledge about socialism or capitalism,
He lives in the word of ideology which only allows for consistent loyalty to ones own capitalist state.

[alphaq]

so what, now you are saying that Cuba isn't communist? Then you are defeating your own argument because (according to that logic). if Cuba isn't communist then it is Cuba that is flawed, not communism

[Forever capitalism]

No, if you paid to read you would see that i said that the Helms Burton Act should not effect Cuba in any way as it is communist, and communism doesnt' do deals or co-exist on friendly terms with businesmen and entreuperners who "exploit workers" and only go for profit. Things like the Helms Burton Act and the embargo are merely excuses that communists use to defend a country that hasn't progressed in 42 years, rations food and has no democracy or freedom of speech. Embargo applies to 2% of the Cuban economy, and in communist theory the Helms Burton Act is immaterial. So why don't communists insist on bringing it up as the sole reasons for their lack of development and prosperity? Obviously to conceal the truth that communist economics don't work and have failed around the world.

[alphaq]

f cap, first off I am not neccessarily a communist, second off I am curious as to where you got the figure of 2% I have seen much higher numbers.
Thank you

(Edited by alphaq at 7:20 am on Feb. 18, 2002)

[Forever capitalism]

I never stated that you were a communist. I was directing my post to communists in general.

[poncho]

WHAT THE AMERICAN SYSTEM IS NOT ABOUT: HUMAN RIGHTS, RISING LIVING STANDARDS AND DEMOCRACY.

[Forever capitalism]

As oppossed to the communist system, which is stagnant, failed and poor. Can't support it's population so makes them slaves to their labour without reward to subsist.

[El Che]

"Can't support it's population so makes them slaves to their labour without reward to subsist."

Makes them slaves to their labor eh? with no reward to subsist eh? lol. Why cant we get one with a brain from time to time? it would be a nice change... As it is i refuse to waste my time.

[MindCrime]

You seem to decrie the so-called tyranny in Cuba and compare it to the freedoms and pie-in-the-sky Capitalism that the US has.

Cuba was not a democracy before Castro.

The United States, the proponents of justice and benafactors of the world, supported a vicous right-wing government that explioted the people and kow-towed to American business intrests. Only 2% of people could read under the Batista regime, now over 85% can. Castro has effected social change and the people support him for that.

In Cuba they have public armories in most state owned buildings. Open to the people for instant armorment. If they wanted a revolution the overthrow communism, they could have one.

And in regard to the "communists cant trade with the world on principle" complex. Doenst America support a policy of containment and economic sanctions towards communist nations?

Thats what makes the hipocracy of declaring China a Most Favored Trading Partner so ludicrous. Millions of American dollars flow to Red China every year, strenghtening the communist ecconomy and weakening Americas. Interesting that theycan look at one communist nation one way and be completly hipocritical when dealing with another....

[Forever capitalism]

Ohh so it's okay to replace one dictatorship with another as long as the latter pretends to represent communism? Sure more people can read now under Castro but then again also ration food and live in poverty. Isn't that just wonderful of communism. I sense a world-wide pattern when it comes to the crumbling of communist systems.

[Da Shit]

forever cap i think u missed MindCrime's point... if Cuba wasnt a democracy before castro what does that say about "freedom defender" usa? hm? and why was saddam hussein an ally? and why was milosevic a friend? and why is the saudi monarchy, ruled by bin ladens multimillionaire family, supported? why was pinochet backed? why were the taliban given 48$million in july 2001? why?? why???????

[Da Shit]

one time i was there visiting new york and i was disgusted to see that the capitalist way of thinking is being pumped into small childrens brains in school... they teach them to buy and sell stocks and to win alot of money so they can later buy a nice house and a nice car..... (now if u just read this and didnt find anything wrong with it then im outta here)... they make it sound so simple that i can understand why it is virtually impossible in the US to be against capitalism.. i saw this in a documentary being shown in wall street. americans that were watching it too were smiling and cheering.. u know, this type of brainwashing as kids reminds me of Hitlers Jugend..... the difference being that u arent trained to hate jews...ur trained to win money

disgusting really

[MindCrime]

Yes, it is OK to replace on totolitarian regime with another if the latter concentrates on social growth rather than foreign profit.

You cannot compare every country to the American Ideal, because very few countries live under those conditions. America had a chance of handleing Cuba, and we got the Batistas. Now the Communists are in power and people are better off than when America was ruling them with their viche regime.

Cuba rations food so the less people will starve. I would hold that higher than a system in which there is enough food for everyone, but there are is still hunger.

Castro has moved Cuba towards a more equal and humanitarian society. Maybe America should concentrate on wiping out such problems at home before the exult the greatness of a Capitalist economy...

[Moskitto]

You don't like rationing? I suggest you find out what Britain was like 1939-1953. Democracies have to ration sometimes as well you know.

[Imperial Power]

Da shit would you say they didn't subject children to communist propaganda in in the soviet union? The communist system stayed afloat do to propaganda. You seem to have a hate for those with money. You can't blame someone for success though can you.

[Imperial Power]

Da shit would you say they didn't subject children to communist propaganda in in the soviet union? The communist system stayed afloat do to propaganda. You seem to have a hate for those with money. You can't blame someone for success though can you.

[peaccenicked]

stalinist propaganda and the deification of Lenin.
Lenin would have hated Stalin's glorification.
Thats if you know anything about Lenin.
I dont hate money it is the system of money which is
at fault. Success is the persuit of excellence satisfied, not the fufilment of capitalistic greed.
The stalinist system stayed afloat becase it could not repay the foriegn debt, the counter revolution was only able to return to capitalism when it was able to do so.
This does not mean to say you were not brainwashed at school.

[Da Shit]

imperial power how many more times do we have to say that stalinism isnt what we stand for? i dont see anyone here defending stalinism... i dont...in fact i dont support any system that uses propaganda as policy.. that contradicts freedom of speech... it is manipulation and the US is full of it

and about that "you cant blame someone for success" thing, i suggest u read my post here when i was still a guest

[MindCrime]

So Imperial Power, you decire Stalinism for making use of propaganda, even though the United States uses their own greed-bent conditioning on children from early elementary up? Hipocracy.

[peaccenicked]

It think ips slave mentality and ideology is connected
to organised religion
"Organized religion, being founded on superstition, is, perforce, not scientific. And all that which is not scientific -- that is, truthful -- must be bolstered up by force, fear and falsehood. Thus we always find slavery and organized religion going hand in hand."
-- Elbert Hubbard, from Ira D. Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

[Imperial Power]

Mindcrime the hypocrite is dashit. If you read his post he sounds like the US exclusively subjects their children to capitalist propaganda. Every system teaches teaches their children the so called virtues of the system.

[Forever capitalism]

I remember thine stalin advocating the policies of that despot in many of his posts. Also, moskitto there was food rationing in Britain during that period, as there was in many european countries and even australia becasue of the war at the time from 1939-45. It still took a few years for supplies to get back on track but at least they have. Cuba has been like this for 42 years!!!! Communism = let's make everybody, "equally" poor

[alphaq]

forever capitalism, you still haven't showed me where you obtained the figure of 2% regarding Cuba's dependence on the US. I i highly doubt that there is any country in the world with a 2% dependence on the US. Unless ofcourse you are talking about Cuba after all of the sanctions and embargoes placed on it by the US and the OAS.

[Forever capitalism]

I'll rephrase my information on the embargo, i hope this will appease you alphaq. The US embargo towards Cuba accounts for only 10 to 14 percent of the worlds total economy. Castro is able and does conduct business with the rest of the world. The embargo is hardly to blame for the plight of Cuba.

[Forever capitalism]

Now alphaq can you give me your "much higher" figures that refute fact?? The embargo is an excuse that Castro has used for 42 years for his inability and his theories inability to create wealth and escape poverty. He and communism are failures. The embargo only prohibits Cuba trading with the U.S., they are free to trade with approximately 250 other countries! It isn't a worldwide embargo such as the one placed on Iraqi oil and on apartheid-South Africa. Cuba's fault emanate from the revolution of 59 that superseded one tyrant with another.

[Forever capitalism]

So which do you commies suggest are successful communist/totalitarian regimes that still exist to this day and provide enough wealth to appease the population. China let's remember is NOT communist. So what are you guys proud of? Which regimes do you look up to? Cuba with no economy, a dictator and immense poverty, Vietnam, now also capitalist, North Korea who suffers from famine? How about in the past. USSR, an empire that even after exploiting the satellite states that it set up and used as colonies managed to fail and become bankrupt, African socialist states which last a few years then failed? Enlighten me

[Da Shit]

im so sorry imperial power but i really dont remember being brainwashed as a kid in school. and it certainly wasnt a communist school lol otherwise id really be having difficulty in being against capitalism wouldnt i..

[Da Shit]

forever cap u r a criminal. u talk of a state as if it were alone in the world. yes, that makes u a criminal, but i dont expect u to understand that. believe me from where i stand ur view is so ridiculously ignorant that i dont know why im still here wasting my time with u

[itssoLARGE]

You live in a world that has been dominated by 500 years of pain and suffering due to the single ideal of capitalism. With this said, how can you not believe in a more viable alternative? You cannot, no matter if that dream is obtainable or not.

I only read the first few posts and it seems to me that everyone is hung up on the matter of the totalitarian state. Well according to Marxism the workers are supposed to organize and create a strong central authority that rules over the workers in order to provide equality.

Well... How can you expect communism to succeed if the communist states are destroyed before they even get a chance to prove the point.

In addition to the matter of communism being defeated quickly. How can you expect a system that is based around the rights of the people and the sanctity of life to ever succeed in a world that is based around blatant militarism?

[peaccenicked]

equally poor.
that describes the capitalist posts on this site.
Oh that makes them communists.
We won the argument.

[sabre]

Capis- You guys need to quit telling us to "go move to a socialist state" even after time and time again we have told you that there are no true socialist states , even by definition. Its time to come up with a new arguement.


Secondly- The fact that capitalism has existed this long is because of the control it puts on maintaining capitalism. If capitalism didn't use propaganda to bias the populaton against socialism to begin with, socialism would have dominated the world.

Also, totalitarian is not the same as communist - while most states WHICH CLAIMED TO BE COMMUNIST but were no where close to actually being communist employed totalitarian tactics, a comparison between totalitarian and communist is still asinine

You want a totalitarian state? try the U.S. police state

[peaccenicked]

com·mu·nism [kómmy nìzzm ] noun
classless political system: the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of a community


to·tal·i·tar·i·an [t tàll táiree n ] adjective
centralized and dictatorial: relating to or operating a centralized government system in which a single party without opposition rules over political, economic, social, and cultural life

Communism not= totalarianism
cap·i·tal·ism [káppit'l ìzzm ] noun
free-market system: an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, characterized by a free competitive market and motivation by profit
Democracy
1. free and equal representation of people: the free and equal right of every person to participate in a system of government, often practiced by electing representatives of the people by the people "Democracy is like the experience of life itself - always changing, infinite in its variety, sometimes turbulent and all the more valuable for having been tested for adversity." Jimmy Carter Speech to Parliament of India (June 2, 1978)

2. democratic nation: a country with a government that has been elected freely and equally by all its citizens

3. democratic governmental system: a system of government based on the principle of majority decision-making

4. organizational control by members: the control of an organization by its members, who have a free and equal right to participate in decision-making processes

Capitalism not=democracy

capitalists do not take votes when they issue thousands of redundancies.

capis get real. (some hope)



(Edited by peaccenicked at 2:22 am on Feb. 20, 2002)

[MindCrime]

A BREIF HOSTORY OF THE RUSSINA REVOLUTION:
A play by MindCrime

Cast:
Tsar
Lenin
The People
America

[Setting, pre revolutionary Russia]

Tsar: It's good to be the king. Lets build me another palace

The People: *groan* not ANOTHER one....

Lenin: (burtsing onstage) I tell you now that you are free!

The People: Huzzah! (beats the Tsar around the head)

America: Hey! we were doing business with him! (pulls a revolver)

The People: Oh shit! We dont have any guns yet! Quick, we need to build some for defence!

America: Try it, ive already got a factory building them!

The People: Hurry Hurry! More More!

Lenin: Shit! Our economy cant handle this!

(Communism collapses onstage)

America: Ha! Told you that all this equality rubbish was self defeating! Theyre better off in a "free" economy like ours. Cuz we stand for Justice!

The People: We're so hungry....

fin

[RedRevolutionary87]

the usa has been busting their butts trying to get rid of communism where ever it arises, all communist school systems were superior to those of the west, and they were available to all, healthcare was also free if communism was given one chance to flourish it would and it would surpass all past social systems!

[MindCrime]

I agree Red, the US brutaly put down the communist countires before their economies could even get going. Who knows what possibilities were lost in that display of rampant paranoia and greed?

[Forever capitalism]

The U.S. was trying to save the people from living in an oppressive and totalitarian regime ruled by a powerful and all controlling despot with no freedoms or hope.

[peaccenicked]

that is a lie the us is trying to expand its economic interests abroad, and dupe its own population into thinking it is benevolent.

[Forever capitalism]

So the communist regimes that were established "were not" totalitarian in nature and not controlled by a tyrant. Is that what you are suggesting peacenicked?? Examples would you useful as evidence to back up your argument. Here are some for mine. USSR, China, Cuba, North Korea, Cambodia, etc

[peaccenicked]

listen they were not communist

[itssoLARGE]

I think peacennekid is trying to say that the totalitarian states that arose out of communism were a result of American imperialism and militarism. The minute the Soviet Union was created it was forced into wars. After World War I the Soviets fought the Whites and everyother western European country. In order to survive in the world the Soviet Union and every other totalitarian-communist country were forced to create highly structured central authorities to fight back.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt one of the parts of communism to have a strong central authority to regulate and keep the classes equal until the state is ready to abolish itself? So the totalitarian aspects of the communist states are merely a period of required stability.

If you think that the USA was in places like Archangel to stop the people from living oppressive lives then you need a firm reality slap....
The point of America having a role against communism is because a lot of private ownership in Czarist Russia was turned over to the Soviet Union.
There is no real moral reason... the USA uses the military as a bunch of gun thugs for big capital. If the USA really cared so much about the rights of the people then they would not later setup puppet dictators in South America and deny the rights of the worker in her country..

[MindCrime]

The United States was trying to SAVE the Russina people!? Where was this bleeding heard when the Tsar was in power? He was leagues worse than even Stalin, and this is Lenin were talking about.

[peaccenicked]

totalitrianism described fascism and stalinism but also
can be used to describe the dictatotorship of Capital which needs a passive desensitivised obedient work force to survive. It is also a word that is used to undermine democratic socialism, and in totalitarian fashion tries to make the word meaningless.For them, All there can be is the total rule of capital or stalinism. This is a miserable look on life that decent human beings should reject.
what we want is total honesty and openness in
society that has never been known in history.

[Forever capitalism]

The tsar was better then what Lenin created. The USSR was the offspring of a ruthless dictator that was directly responsible to millions of murders especially in Stalins time of innocent human beings. During the Purges 1/10 Russians had a file in the KGB offices. America and it's western allies attempted to salvage innocent human life by interfering. Their loss was a dictators gain.

[peaccenicked]

Firstly you support tsarism
and criticise totalaitarianism.
What was absolutism. how was it good for its people?
The USSR was the off spring of a revolution
that was defeated. All of its leadership was murdered
by Stalin who Lenin wanted removed from office.
Why not read a book?

[Forever capitalism]

If Lenin wanted him removed why did he have him Minister for nationalities in his government and politburo peacenicked? Dont' try and distinguish between Stalin and Lenin. Lenin instigated the terror after the revolution that resulted in thousands of deaths for the sake of preserving an unpopular revolution as the results for the National Assembley will attest to. Even being outvoted and not even one of the 5 major parties, Lenin eleminated the national assembley as well as all freedoms and established his dictatorship. He even had to revert to capitalism through his New Economic Policy to revive the economy after the complete and utter failure of "War communism".

[peaccenicked]

It is true that Lenin trusted Stalin at first
but he wrote"... I propose to the comrades to find a way to remove Stalin from that position and appoint to it another man who in all other respects differs from Stalin only in superiority—namely; more patient, more loyal, more polite and more attentive to comrades, less capricious, etc."

He wanted him removed


(Edited by peaccenicked at 2:32 am on Feb. 22, 2002)

[Rosa]

yes, lenin didn't want Stalin to rule after his death. Actually, he has named someone, but I can't remember whoom... will try to find the answer tomorrow.

[RedCeltic]

In 1922 Lenin wrote a "Political Testament". In it he said that Trotsky should become the leader of Russia after him. Lenin also suggested that the other Bolshevik leaders should find a way of getting rid of Stalin. However, when the will was given to the Bolshevik leaders after Lenin's death in 1924, they decided not to publish it, because they did not want Trotsky to take over. He was unpopular.

[Forever capitalism]

I don't think he advocated Trotsky as he called Trotsky arogant and not right to rule.

[RedCeltic]

I wasn't sure on who he named either so I searched for it and clipped that from this website..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/modern/stal...in/stalihtm.htm (http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/modern/stalin/stalihtm.htm)

[Forever capitalism]

mmm fair enough then

[peaccenicked]

Lenin pointed out the weaknesses of both
Trotsky and Bukharin.
He was never concerned with personalities as such in this instance he was more concerned about how to resolve these weaknesses. He thought like a professional revolutionary. That was why he pointed them out.

[Forever capitalism]

Regardless of how good of a theories Lenin was, he was still a tyrant when he achieved power. He scraped the National Assembley when the Bolsheviks did not receive the majority of votes, instigated the Terror, set up the Cheka; the Russia secret police which superseded the Ohkrana of the Tsar, prohibited freedom of speech and media and even reverted to capitalism through the New Economic Policy after War Communism failed miserably. His 7 years in power from 1917-1924 were stained with innocent blood.

[peaccenicked]

THE SOVIET is based directly upon the workers in the factories and the peasants in the field. At first the delegates of Workers', Soldiers' and Peasants' Soviets were elected according to rules which varied with the needs and population of various localities. In some villages the peasants chose one delegate for each fifty voters. Soldiers in garrison were given a certain number of delegates for each regiment, regardless of its strength; the army in the field, however, had a different method of electing their Soviets. As for the workers in the great cities, they soon found out that their Soviets became unwieldy unless the delegates were limited to one for each five hundred. In the same way, the first two All—Russian Congresses of Soviets were roughly based upon one delegate for each twenty five thousand voters, but in fact the delegates represented constituencies of various sizes.

Until February 1918 anybody could vote for delegates to the Soviets. Even had the bourgeoisie organised and demanded representation in the Soviets, they would have been given it. For example, during the regime of the Provisional Government there was bourgeois representation in the Petrograd Soviet — a delegate of the Union of Professional Men which comprised doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.

Last March, the constitution of the Soviets was worked out in detail and applied universally. It restricted the franchise to: citizens of the Russian Socialist Republic of both sexes who shall have completed their eighteenth year by the day of election; all who have acquired the means of living through labour that is productive and useful to society and who are members of labour unions. Excluded from the right to vote were: employers of labour for profit; persons who lived on unearned increment; merchants and agents of private business; employers of religious communities; former members of the police and gendarmerie; the former ruling dynasty; the mentally deficient; the deaf and dumb; and those who had been punished for selfish and dishonourable misdemeanours.
This is what replaced the national assembly as it did not recognise soviet government.

[anarchoveganLAM]

Capitalism is a joke in my opinion, especially under a government that calls itself democratic. Democracy is an amazing idea, but never used. In a democratic society, everybody would have say to what happens, everybody. There would be no elite few who runs the country. Democracy isn't putting an "X" in a box and letting somebody run your lives for 4 years. Not that your votes matter anyway...
The only voices heard in a capitalist society is the ones of the rich, just like in our represenative democracy. This is absolutely 100% a plutocracy. It is run by the few, by the rich-the powerful dominators. Capitalism is freedom only to those who are profiting on the labor of the lumpen prolatariat.
Your Ayn Rand objectivist thoughts are a joke.

[Forever capitalism]

If communism is so democratic as to allow elections in different provinces, why then are national elections not held. As all power emanates from the top of the heirachy the leader, shouldn't people have the right to express their opinions through the electoral system. Sure Castro has been in power 42 years and has made education and health free, but the majority of the people has not been spoken or expressed. If somebody objects to him then they are prohibited from showing it. That is not democratic. Minor elections in provinces around the nation are not enough. True democracy is where the people can vote for their leader, not merely his hencmen.

[Forever capitalism]

The great thing about capitalist democracies is there are limitations and rules that prohibit and stop dictators from assuming power. The american democracy is a fine example where a president can only hold that position for 2 terms. That stops dictators such as Mugabe and the infamous Mexican party that "successfully" won the election and maintained power for over 60 years. Blatant exploitation of such electoral systems is not committed in american democracy as people must choose a new leader every 2 terms. In cuba Castro has outlasted 9 american presidents, making him the epitome of a dictator. Not to mention other communist leaders such as Stalin and Mao that only gave up power due to their deaths.

[ArgueEverything]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 4:04 am on Feb. 24, 2002
The great thing about capitalist democracies is there are limitations and rules that prohibit and stop dictators from assuming power. The american democracy is a fine example where a president can only hold that position for 2 terms. That stops dictators such as Mugabe and the infamous Mexican party that "successfully" won the election and maintained power for over 60 years. Blatant exploitation of such electoral systems is not committed in american democracy as people must choose a new leader every 2 terms. In cuba Castro has outlasted 9 american presidents, making him the epitome of a dictator. Not to mention other communist leaders such as Stalin and Mao that only gave up power due to their deaths.

the fact that american president can only serve 2 terms has nothing at all to do with capitalism. if it did, then all the other capitalist countries would have the same rule, which they dont.

you make the mistake of equating democracy with capitalism alone. there have been capitalist rulers who have been undemocratic dictators, in chile and the congo for example.

[Forever capitalism]

Democracy is one of the main virtues of capitalism along with freedom of speech, expression and freedom of competition and trade. Those dictators in the Congo and Chile did not employ democracy therefore cannot be held responsible for besmirching capitalism. That comrade is called Fascism. It is neither capitalism as no democracy was present or communism as free enterprise and competition was permitted especially in Pinochet's case.

[Nateddi]

Forever Ignorant, if you ever bothered to look up the word 'communism' in the dictionary you would know by the definition that a communist society is naturally democratic as compared to a capitalist society which is plutocratic. Your argument is a bit dull also, your only argument against communism is an argument against dictators, which I agree with you on. Here is an example of me doing the same communist version of your argument.


Quote: from Forever capitalism on 4:26 am on Feb. 24, 2002
Democracy is one of the main virtues of capitalism along with freedom of speech, expression and freedom of competition and trade. Those dictators in the Congo and Chile did not employ democracy therefore cannot be held responsible for besmirching capitalism. That comrade is called Fascism. It is neither capitalism as no democracy was present or communism as free enterprise and competition was permitted especially in Pinochet's case.
Democracy is one of the main virtues of socialism along with freedom of speech, expression, religion, assembly, etc. Those dictators in the USSR and China did not employ democracy therefore cannot be held responsible for besmirching communism. That cappie is called Fascism. You need to check grammar on your last sentance.

(Edited by Nateddi at 4:42 am on Feb. 24, 2002)

[Forever capitalism]

I'll rephrase that, i meant "electoral democracy" manifesting itself in all forms, both national and state. Freedom of religion in communism? I don't think so as Marx put it, "Religion is the opium of the people" and advocated the abolishment of it. Freedom of assembley?? Such as the national assembley in Russia in which Lenin dissolved after he received less than satisfactory results and which proved that the Bolsheviks were not popular at all.

[Nateddi]

"Religion is the Opiate of the masses" is a quote by Lenin, not Marx. The russian orthodox church was still big regardless of the revolution. When I lived in the USSR, nobody I knew was atheist, most belonged to the russian orthodox church. That quote is very true, considering it does not target someones personal beliefs, rather it targets organized religion. That quote does not mean advocating the use of force to perform a "war on faith" or something along those lines. As for freedom of assembly, an ideal socialist society would most definately allow this after the bourgeois threat to hold a coup de t'eta is eliminated (not long after a transition).

[Forever capitalism]

I reiterate that the quote was made by Marx. Still Lenin persucuted members of the Orthodox Religion as did other Soviet leaders. Isn't this suppression of ones right to worship?

[itssoLARGE]

the the "Opium of the masses" quotes was made by marx in is younger year like when he was 24 or 25

[Vladimir Ulianov]

Hay, Capitalism Forever!!!

What do you see??? Which is your problem???

See, fuck!!! Capitalism...'Capital', money must be on everyone??? And what happen with the people??? A coin cannot suffer, it is made of metal, do you remember? And a bill? does it feel? Nooo, sure!!!

Capitalism is the system made for the richest ones always win!!! The fucked Capitalism´s logo only let to live rich and not poor!!!!!!!!

[Rosa]

no, that was Marx, have a book of my own "About Religion", collection of articles about religious problematic+ never heard that Lenin used that parola, possible that he has. I can search and inform you about the page of book where that is quoted, if you are suspicious.

[Vertigo]

Quote: from Nateddi on 4:47 am on Feb. 24, 2002
"Religion is the Opiate of the masses" is a quote by Lenin, not Marx.

I think it's Marx's...

[Forever capitalism]

Of course it is from Marx. Marx's writings were not evil, nor did he envisage a dictatorship. However when people tried to implement the ideas of Marx to real life they found themselves participating in regimes that murdered and abused humanity.

[MindCrime]

Exactly, since real Communism has never been established we should strive to do so.

[Forever capitalism]

But people such as Lenin, the person as your representative picture, tried to establish a communist regime but couldn't because of its failures and human nature. That is a fact. It doesn't work in practice.

[Moskitto]

There are religious communists as well. Like John Ball, Daniel Ortega or Thomas More. What about Christian Socialists.

[Guest]

yes moskitto fortunately not all communist suppressed religion. How noble of them.

[peaccenicked]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=22&topic=149 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=149)

[Moskitto]

If you knew who John Ball was, you'd know that he most certainly didn't oppress religion. Infact he was thrown out of the church for saying that christianity taught equality between all people.

Thomas More is infact St Thomas More, writer of the book "Utopia" and Martyr.

Daniel Ortega. "Sandino was my hero, And Christ." He basically relates everything in his speeches to God's will.

[samaniego]

Once again, the cappies have our backs to the wall. Their in power, but with many of us it's critics. So what do we plan to do about it? This message board is'nt going to bring down Capatilism with our words. In order to truly justify our idea we must use their own system against them, unite in education and vote to over throw the system with out costing the lives of those we are trying to help. Of course it is easy to say this, here. I'm sure to some this is only an insult, and I'am sorry. I would rather have us all alive to enjoy the fruits of our labor than dead to see nothing. I again know, that in perhaps every case those in power would rather die than to give up what they have, and so Capatilism is not superior, only in power, how is it superior to have an abundance of wealth and food, and have our fellow man starving and poor, at the benefit of a few. Where is that superior, or right ?

[ernestodekam]

Yes you are correct to apoint.

Lets create some more thoughtful arguments to these knee jerk capis insted of using emotional rhetoric that is almost usless in the real world.

[peaccenicked]

" And if these material elements of a complete revolution are not present (namely, on the one hand the existing productive forces, on the other the formation of a revolutionary mass, which revolts not only against separate conditions of society up till then, but against the very "production of life" till then, the "total activity" on which it was based), then, as far as practical development is concerned, it is absolutely immaterial whether the idea of this revolution has been expressed a hundred times already, as the history of communism proves." Karl Marx.
At the same time man makes history. As Brecht says 'man must make the truth prevail'.
This message board is a small part of the larger efforts of mankind. Let us not reduce ourselves to a mere nothing. Let us be realistic but let us celebrate the journey of life itself. I somebody came up to me and said. 'Remember what you said
in 1983, well it has just struck me you were right'
They said if it was just yesterday. I had no idea what he was talking about and he carried on as though I did remember. I guess I have always been argumentative
but he must have meant Socialism, I think.
Samaniego, it can happen to anybody. Keep it up, sometimes we do not realise the good work we are doing.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 2:59 am on Mar. 2, 2002)

[Forever capitalism]

I thought this was one of the most productive arguments in this forum. Belatedly i also wanted to respond to religion in communism. By theory it prevents one from practicing their respective religion and this is another limitation of ones freedoms and liberties that are not violated in capitalist nations. Communist countries such as the USSR pursecuted the Russian Orthodox Church and attempted to eliminate it, effectively wanting to eradicate a historical and relevant religion that was followed by millions of people around the world. Yes not all communists were anti-religious as stated by Moskitto however those who he mentions were utopian socialists in the era of Owen, before the emergence of Marx. The persecution of religion is imbedded in communist theory and is yet another flaw and violation of freedom.

[Forever capitalism]

Castro himself did not permit catholics to join the communist party until something like 1992. He only did this because he needed all the supporters he could get as his dying regime realised its persecution and limitations on ones freedom of choice could not be concealed any longer by the free health and education that was offered as a smokescreen to dupe the masses of Cuba. The whole cuban population is filled with political prisoners who do not have freedom of speech, expression, religion. Only freedom to toil in the fields and work 15 hours in factories. In 1970 when Castro instigated the ridiculous 10 million tone sugar cutting scheme he cancelled ALL holidays in that year to reach such an absurd figure. People had no breaks and worked straight for a year. That is called slavery to the state. I bet Castro had a great time smoking cigars whilst families were forced to cut cane, regardless of the date or weather or even their condition. No wonder Cubans storm embassies to obtain a visa and leave the horrible regime Castro has set up.

[sabre]

do you know why they needed to toil in the sun? to keep their damn counry going becuase the fucking U.S. has an embargo on them

it is the CAPITALISTS FAULT that they have to work so hard. If the capitalists would jsut get off their backs they wouldnt have to work so hard

[Forever capitalism]

I've outlined in other threads the use of the embargo and the helms burton treaty as propagada by Castro and scape goat as to why his regime is a failure. He is acting similarly to Stalin who blamed capitalists inside the system for the inredible number of factory related deaths. He saw them as spies who sabotaged the USSR's attempt to industrialise. Ridiculous reasons such as these are usually communist leaders attempt to conceal their own failures.

[vox]

FC,

If your theory is correct, then how can it be reconciled with Castro's stance on the embargo?

"[Castro] demanded that the U.S. get rid of the trade embargo as well as migration policies Havana says encourage illegal immigration. The U.S. should also allow Americans to visit, do business and invest in Cuba without restrictions, 'without ridiculous fear.'"

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/07/...cuba.sanctions/ (http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/07/29/us.cuba.sanctions/)

If one agrees with your hypothesis, wouldn't it be expected that, rather than demanding an end to the embargo, Castro would want to keep it in place?

vox