What has happened to this place?

[reagan lives]

Since I've been around this board, I've seen a lot of changes to it. Most of these changes have been unabashed attempts to restrict the speech of a certain segment of the population. And, in my opinion, the board is a much worse place for it. You've restricted so-called "capitalists" to this forum (and so, since I believe in capitalism, I only post here, because I have respect for the law), and it seems that the level of discussion all over the board has hit the shitter. It seems that the people who used to make discussion interesting have retreated into the "Commie Club"...it's easier to have an open mind when you don't talk to people who disagree with you. As a result, the General Political Topics forum (which used to be the center of all the interesting exchanges of ideas) has degenerated into nonsense. I looked in there today, and I saw that you had some crackhead named "Joseluis" posting gibberish, a discussion about which hockey team you were rooting for in the Olympics, and a list of the contributions of the French to modern civilization. And this forum is a lame substitute for the old GPT battlefield...again, all the characters who made it entertaining have taken their ball and gone home, leaving us with a forum full of cut & paste tripe from people like peacenicked, who apparently hasn't had a thought of his own in months. And I can only imagine what the Commie Club must be like...
Topic: Capitalists smell like poo
"I think that capitalism sucks b/c I like socialism."
"Great post!"
"Yeah!"
"Your wisdom is a shining light for us all."
"FUCK CAPITALISM"
"There's no need to yell."
"SORRY"
"Stop fighting, we need to unite in the revolution brothers."
"Yeah, thank God we don't have a bunch of capitalists here getting in the way of our discussion."

The sorry state of this board is what inevitably happens to public discourse when restrictions are placed on the freedom of speech. Before, anyone who expressed capitalist views here wasn't given a fair chance really...those who expressed the dominant view were treated nicely, and those who didn't were told to shut up. But the level of discussion was still 10x higher than it is now. Sure, restricting speech makes it a lot easier for those who hold the dominant viewpoint to get things done...just ask your friend Stalin. But this board was a much, much more interesting place when everyone talked to everyone. You chose segregation, and we're all poorer for it.

[Xvall]

You lie like a RUG Mr. Raegan!

- Drake Dracoli

[I Will Deny You]

Reagan you've been here ages longer than I have (I came at the very END of December) but you're right, General Political Topics isn't what it could be. One of the reasons for this is that certain capitalists (not you, but others who shall remain nameless) would turn every thread into either a Capitalist vs. Communist argument or a Pro-Che vs. Anti-Che argument, no matter what the thread was originally about. You say that your free speech is restricted, and while I don't know you, exactly what you stand for or how intelligent you are perhaps your free speech is restricted. But these certain capitalists (and I'm not only talking about Mclaren) would turn every damned thread in there into a Socialism vs. Capitalism debate, so why not give it its own forum? Maybe you would bring some unique insight into the boards by playing devil's advocate, maybe you would be respectful and intelligent, but for everyone who would be those things there would be three right-wingers who would consider themselves original for mentioning Che's role as Supreme Prosecutor. I really don't think that your freedom of speech has been restricted because this is a privately owned website and it's not even in Reagan territory, but I understand your point. However, there are many forums on the web that are all about left vs. right debates and if I really wanted to have a debate with someone like you, I'd go to one of those sites. I come here not for an environment that promotes mindless agreement and self-congratulation but an exchange of ideas. Of course not every leftist agrees with all other leftists and that's why there will be a thread that'll cause controversy once in a while. But the fact remains that if all I wanted to do was debate, I wouldn't be here at all.

[reagan lives]

"maybe you would be respectful and intelligent"
I make no such promises.

As for the First Amendment notion of "freedom of speech" not applying to privately owned things...I understand, accept, and embrace the fact that Malte could ban everyone but himself and his mother from this board if he wanted to. My point was about how when those actions are taken, whatever the context, the level of discussion drops dramatically.

[libereco]

the Capitalists were not told to just post here because we couldn't handle them. It was because they started making every topic a general Capitalism vs. Communism debate....every thread was the same in the end. Now you can do that here if you wish.

You might not know (well, how would you) but the left is not one big block of people who all think alike. There are many different kinds of socialists with very different ideas (just like capitalists) and I believe there is enough division to allow for interesting discussion.

Thats actually one reason why the left is weak sometimes. Because we tend to discuss things and think about them a lot, that takes time.

[Supermodel]

Well I'm the last person who should weigh in on this topic, but I think we do get a better discussion going when we leave out the DOGMA (pretending I know what that means) and rhetoric and absolutism.

What drew me to this board, other than a lifelong love of what Che stood for, was that I have spent my adult life living with a set of "givens" and I find myself increasingly questioning what I have been thinking of as "right".

I really enjoy a good discussion, and I apologize to everyone because when things just get too heavy I tend to make a joke, which is what I do in real life situations.

I have learned so much, even from the long cut and pastes that you refer to, and I really enjoy hearing all sides.

What I would not like to see is a shutting down when anyone gets on a rant, I mean that's free speech too, when they yell or use foul language, let them express themselves.
If people want to say something incredibly stupid, let them.

But I completely agree that our discussions are far more interesting when we stop taking ourselves too seriously and act like a group of colleagues in a coffee shop in old Paris instead of rival soccer hooligans.

And Reagan, you don't need to stay out of the other sections. You have to break some rules. Just listen to your inner-socialist.

[Kez]

Hey Reagan,
for once, i agree with you.
there are too many fucking forums
we dont need this capitalsit vs socialsit thing
we dont really need the commie club (?)
stick the music and literature into one called "culture" or summit
chit chat and lounge can be turned to one
there has also been a massive increase of "less knowledgable" comrades who come out with some pure shit at times
i think what malte should do is ban the dicks, but keep urself, capitalist and a few other "capitalists" to keep a good debate going.

i came here at i think a good time when u were around with some other fucker.
RC posted a fair bit, and all was stable.
but now there are just too many shitheads
guess that what happens when malte's site becomes so successful

for more shit that came from my mouth just email me
comrade kamo

[Capitalist]

Quite Frankly, I wish I never called myself Capitalist.

Everybody keeps telling me how bad Capitalism is.

I really don't care - I just called myself Capitalist to piss off the Commies on this board.

I support and believe in True Capitalism however my MAIN purpose is to remind everyone that Communism holds many victims in it's palm.

That Che Guevara was no revolutionary saint, but a fanatic man of hatred - and yes I agree he is good looking, like myself (half Spanish, half Irish) but that does not excuse the fact that he killed many innocent people (including a 15 year old boy for stealing food)and destroyed Cuba forever.

My main purpose is to show people that the mass killings and restriction of rights is occuring now at this very moment. We can cry about the 6 million Jews killed by Nazis, or the millions of Native Americans killed by the Eurpoean Invasion, or the Africans that lived under slavery back in the 1800s - The point is that is all history.

Communist Oppression is happening RIGHT NOW!

Not 40 years ago, Not 100 Years ago, Not 200 Years ago

There is an entire 1/5 of the population (China, Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea) living under Brainwashed Communism and Dictatorship.

Of course, somebody is going to reply that the USA is dropping bombs on someone, and that kids are making soccer balls for rich American Kids somewhere in India, and that People are denied healthcare because of drug companies.

Quite Frankly - I'd rather make soccer balls than starve to death. How else are these poor countries going to support themselves without free trade? I do not agree with child labor - but it is the USA that is enforcing these foreign countries to adopt the democratic and humanitarian principles that take place inside our country. It is American Companies (not all - but most) that are beginning to take steps to prevent child abuse overseas.

USA is changing for the better.

Capitalism is changing for the better.

Communism and Terrorism is not changing.

[Moskitto]

Ok, this is what happened with the commie club and capitalism vs socialism board and also what happens in the commie club.

First of all we have a nice friendly peaceful board, then I join.

Then we have a nice peaceful friendly board where people get along just fine until sept 11 when a member gets banned for supporting the sept 11 attacks.

Now then Reagan Lives and Augusto Join after Sept 11 (maybe it was as a result of American public feeling, maybe it was inevitable.) Some people don't mind them, some people don't want them on the board, everyone has a slightly different view of them.

Then Fantomas comes along who floods boards and makes some rather sexist comments directed at Nickadamus. This makes some people wonder about whether things should be changed.

Fantomas gets banned and Malte makes the commie club (the commie club is normally quite boring though.)

Then Reagan and Augusto leave and don't come back for a while and things return to something more normal.

Then we get a few ore capitalists like Capitalist and IP who seem to be turning every debate on GPD into Capitalism vs Socialism. This pisses loads of people off and I start taking refuge in Chit Chat.

Then my friend Mclaren joins who really pisses everyone off and get's banned. Malte decides the forum needs a real sort out.

Next, the Capitalism vs Socialism board is oppened and GPD goes back to it's original political discussion state.

However I think this is how far we should go. The WCOTC forum removed their equivalent of the C vs S board and made it so that non members couldn't view the board. This should not happen under any circumstances at Che-Lives. Although I doubt it will, Malte keeps out of the C vs S board where as the WCOTC admin who was called "Glock" was all for deleting peoples posts explaining why racism sucks and how much bollux exists on the WCOTC website.

And I'd agree with Kamo, I've always had respect for you Reagan so I think you should stay.

[Capitalist]

I do not mind staying here in the REALITY section.

The commies need a haven so they can dream and discuss their little fantasy world and ideology.

They don't call us RIGHT for nothing.

[Imperial Power]

I'll have to say the General Politics area has gone to shit. The content is meaningless and without thought.

[vox]

It's very funny to me that the right-wingers are complaining about the level of discussion but do nothing to raise it. Hee!

If it's true that every discussion used to turn into a shithead v. Leftist discussion, and that's what people miss, then this forum should have the highest standard, no? But that hasn't happened, because the likes of Reagan Lies and Imperialist cannot be taken seriously. Go back and look at the arguments they give that aren't copy-and-paste jobs. They are laughable.

In the meantime, the Left carries on.

vox

[reagan lives]

Typical vox. Hee. Thanks for reminding me why a civil discussion can't be had around here.

[peaccenicked]

I remember a little matter of the geneva
convention which seemed to dissappear in a civilised manner.
then there was the little matter of international law which you left unattended and none has shown that power is not concentrared in the hands of a few within capitalism. all i am hearing is petty moans and unsubstantiated claims about the virtues of capitalism.
then there are attacks on stalinism which are directed at socialists as if socialists have not been on the whole
victims of stalinism and the legacy of having to argue with duped products of the cold war who equate without any justice that socialism equals stalinism .when in reality it was the defeat of socialism.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:27 pm on Feb. 13, 2002)

[El Che]

Reagan Lives, i wonder if u realise the lack of content in your discourse.... You, IP and Capitalist say nothing of substance, you are infact as dumb and dull as one could possibly imagine a capitalist lacky to be. As for the level of discution in my opinion its never been higher, execpt maybe when this(new) forum was created. Long before u and augostos (poor augosto) ever showed up. You people are so boring and ignorante its impossible to ever reach some kind of interesting debate. I would rather discuss the weather for a year then have your disgusting yankee propaganda find its way it every potentialy interesting discution this site hosts. U dumb gringo.

[vox]

Reagan Lies,

You expect civility when the socio-economic system you espouse demands death and horrors of all kinds?

Surely, you must be even baser than I imagine you to be to think such a dreadful thing.

You, by your VERY WORDS, appreciate "collateral damage," isn't that right, Reagan Lies? You have said that "collateral damage," that is, the death of civilians, is okay in your book. It was in one of your first posts here.

You don't deny it now, do you? If so, you truly live up to your "napping" namesake (a reference to one of Ronald Reagan's excuses).

Am I to be civil to one who endorses slaughter? NO!

Am I to be civil to one who endorses a system under which many will perish and few will thrive? NO!

Am I to be civil to one who wishes the very extinction of that which I hold dear? NO!

I've said before, Reagan Lies, that I don't like you, and I say it again.

By the way, you offered nothing in the way of discourse, yourself.

Me? It just feels nice to tell off a thing like you.

vox

[El Che]

Good point vox, one that stands on a philosophical platform: Do criminals deserve the respect civil debate proporcionates? does there ignorance justify there position? are they "really" ignorante? because thats what u are RL, a criminal, your crime? acessory to murder.

[reagan lives]

"I've said before, Reagan Lies, that I don't like you, and I say it again."
OH, PLEASE BE MY FRIEND!!!

"You, by your VERY WORDS, appreciate "collateral damage," isn't that right, Reagan Lies? You have said that "collateral damage," that is, the death of civilians, is okay in your book. It was in one of your first posts here."
vox, could you do me a favor and provide a link to that thread, so the readers can judge for themselves what I wrote? You twist my words in such a shameful and amateur fashion that I really don't feel like correcting you. But I think the people here, who are capable of knowing bullshit when they see it, should have the opportunity to see how disingenuous you are.

As usual, when you are called on something you resort to your usual posturing and rhetoric. Typical.

By the way, you offered nothing in the way of discourse, yourself.

[Xvall]

Mr. Raegan,
Isn't it your friends that are more interested in posting about Trance music an Brittany spears, as well as copying large posts off of webpages?

- Drake Dracoli

[reagan lives]

What the hell are you talking about?

[Moskitto]

IP likes Trance music and Britney spears. Also he copies and pastes from a Capitalism FAQ. That's what he's talking about, I don't think this relates to you though.

[RedCeltic]

Imperial Power:

The actual reason for the fall-out of number of active posters (like me) has more to do with the fact that most people on this board are students at various universities around the world and so posts have died a bit, which is common around such periods for every BB on the net, things usually pick up 1/4 through semester however as people realize they can get through particular classes without actually reading the text. :)

[Imperial Power]

Yeah trance is great and britney spears is hot. But ive only talked about that in chit chat commrade drake.

[Moskitto]

I haven't listened to much trance and I think Britney Spear's is Ewwwwww. But that's an opinion.

[Xvall]

I know you've only talked about it in chit chat,
I'm just stating that it is more commonly discussed than anything political.

[peaccenicked]

I think ip is too cowardly to criticise the US and looks for intelligent company among those who do, because he knows that our criticism of america is intelligent unlike his defence of it.

[El Che]

What do you think comrades, do these capitalist lackies that suport murder, poverty and degradation of their fellow humans deserve civilized discussion or just outright contempt?

They are not my friends. NO. it doesnt matter what music they like.

[pastradamus]

RL,the commie club contains info so facinating that it might even be classed as top secret!
Wouldn't like 2 be you!
Your up to your neck in shit!

[reagan lives]

...

[peaccenicked]

Reaganlives so full of Cant.
Kant says that beauty is universal and objective and you are an argument against him. Your patriotism is to support blindly the blind folly of your nation. you are no different in essence to one of Hitlers dupes and you have the audacity to submit your arrogance in a public forum as if what you are is not completely transparent.
A fool in psuedo intellectual clothing. Mark Twain would
be offended by your indifference to human life .

[reagan lives]

I am so amused by peacenick's recent affinity for quasi-ad hominem attacks. He has moved from simply cutting and pasting to giving the same lines of bullshit in every thread. Every post I see from you now is the same litany of widespread indictments about so-called capitalists that have nothing to do with any comments made or the issues at hand. You are becoming a true disciple of vox. Congratulations.

[Forever capitalism]

hahah how true. His opinions are baseless when he can't cut and paste huge quantities of propaganda and useless articles.

[peaccenicked]

Everything you say is human crap
all of your words signify ignorance.
you do not argue merely pontificate or
render forth
blatant untruths which are not only baseless
but fraudulent.

[Forever capitalism]

Does using large words increase your confidence and self-esteem peacenicked even when they sound ridiculous and unnecessary??

[peaccenicked]

I was nt aware I was using big words what dont you understand 'you know nothing about history of american backed right wing dictators.
you dont seem to know that wall st backed hitler.
you know nothing of socialist theory, which states that
socialism must be victorious in the developed countries for it to work, so you pick on poor cuba.
you know nothing of poverty in the usa
or you would not that its success is not without huge human cost. You know nothing about democracy as it precludes privilige. '

[Forever capitalism]

You have posted that three times now. Lacking in originality. Need another website to tell you what to think and say???

[peaccenicked]

All your posts are the same.
America> capitalist> rich> good
cuba>poor>socialist>undemocratic>bad
that is what you repeat ad infinitum
and your ignorance of all of your terms is astounding.

[El Brujo]

Quote: from Capitalist on 11:36 am on Feb. 13, 2002
I do not mind staying here in the REALITY section.

The commies need a haven so they can dream and discuss their little fantasy world and ideology.

They don't call us RIGHT for nothing.




Exactly the kind of arrgoance that caused this forum and the commie club to be filed.

There were capitalists before but they weren't fanatical "God Bless America" and "Capitalism rules" people. They actually made interesting posts and didn't go into mindless bashing spurts(one of them, who I talked to on AIM, even admired Che).

[reagan lives]

"...didn't go into mindless bashing spurts..."
You mean, like peacenicked?

God Bless America.

Capitalism rules.

[peaccenicked]

bashing spurts.
mindless bashing??
Really reagan lives, I actualy do think you are a bit more polite than most in your camp.
However that counts for little.
You come to a website clearly meant for people who admired che and wish to learn about his life and politics.
you come here not as a freind but as an ideological enemy. There is no manners in that.
How you behave is to augment and continue the ideological underpinnings of US foreign policy.
There is no manners in that.
You have nothing to add to our knowledge.
Everything you have said is consensual corporate
propaganda which is to be found everywhere.
you dont listen to anything but the mental framework
of you own intellectual slavery to the dollar.

[reagan lives]

I now consider my point proven.

[El Brujo]

RL, I have just the site for you: http://www.treefort.org/~rgrogan/web/reagan.htm

[queen of diamonds]

i'm beginning to see why this forum has become so segregated.....if you can't even have a discussion about the forum itself without hurling insults at each other.....you're all acting like the guys in my grade, and i'm in the 11th grade!!!!
you make some interesting points in this place....take out all the parts where you try to discredit each other instead of refuting each others' point, and you'd have something a lot better...

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from reagan lives on 5:06 am on Feb. 20, 2002
I now consider my point proven.

pompous asshole.

[queen of diamonds]

thanx peace, i think you just proved waht i was trying to say
couldn't have put it better myself

[Forever capitalism]

peacenicked has nothing relevant to say, peacenicked change forums buddy because this is about socialism vs capitalism, something you have displayed to have minute knowledge about. Insults and profanity are credible and dont' contribute to debate.

[Forever capitalism]

peacenicked has no relevance in topics such as socialism vs capitalism. He has displayed his minute knowledge on the subject and i suggest and recommend he immediately change forums. Insults and profanity are not credible and nor do they contribute to the debate.

[peaccenicked]

seriously,
this forum came into being to keep our ideological enemies from interupting our debates and changing their direction towards a debate about stalinism.
There is no debate here, all they do is endlessly imply that we are stalinists. In my books that is a big personal insult and RL, FC, IP are precisely bastards who
perpetuate this insult knowingly and ignore our own statements of our own identity.

[Forever capitalism]

please grow up and stop insulting people. We are discussing ideologies here. History has proven that communism is totalitariansm in practice and egalitarian in theory. History attests to that. You cannot refute this fact. That is why you are getting frustrated and hurling insults.

[peaccenicked]

you are not discussing ideologies you are throwing insults.
your facts are lies. they are not facts.
communism has never been truly practiced.
we know that
you dont
we tell you it is so
and that stalinism has nought to do with socialism or communism
you falsify what we are saying.

[vox]

Reagan Lies now wishes to distance himself from the disgusting things he's said! How noble, Reagan, it's what I expect from someone who took his name from a McCarthy informant.

Fact is, Reagan Lies tried before to distance himself from his "collateral damage" remark, which was in reference to the children who have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions.

Yes, Reagan Lies, let your context be known. You think I forget? NO!

You "deserve" nothing but contempt from me. Where you stand for plutocracy, I stand for democracy.

Where you stand for elitism, I stand for democracy.

Where you stand for imperialism, I stand for democracy.

Where you stand for economic control, I stand for economic liberty!

You've never refuted anything I've said, of course, only attacked me. You can't refute anything I've said, of course, for the facts are on my side.

I win, you lose.

Again and again and again.

vox

[Forever capitalism]

Peacenicked doesn't the fact that socialism/totalitariansm tried to be practiced around the world in a myraid of countries and failed in all of them suggest it doesn't work in practice?

[reagan lives]

"Yes, Reagan Lies, let your context be known. You think I forget? NO!"
And yet you don't provide the link that I asked for. Typical. I don't think you forget...in fact, I know you haven't forgotten. That's why you won't provide the link. Your statements are so far from the truth that I usually don't even bother with them...the only person who takes your wild accusations seriously is yourself.

"You've never refuted anything I've said, of course, only attacked me. You can't refute anything I've said, of course, for the facts are on my side."
You've never said anything, of course, only attacked me.

"Where you stand for economic control, I stand for economic liberty!"
Yeah, us capitalists are all about economic control. Well done, vox.

By the way, wonderful job training peacenicked. He's become almost as wacky as you. I was beginning to miss you, since you rarely come out here to dance for my amusement anymore. peacenicked is not quite as funny, but he's getting there. Keep it up.

[vox]

Hey, Reagan Lies,

Are you danying you said it? Are you saying that, because I don't do your grunt work, that I'm wrong? Are you saying that you never said it? I'll find the quote, probably in Google's cached pages, but why don't you just admit it? Or are you too much of a coward?

I've said tons of things, Reagan Lies. Perhaps, once upon a time, you'd like to respond to the fact the capitalism leads, without outside influence, to the poverty that the richest nation in the world produces.

Anything to say, coward?

vox