Hey imperial power

[James]

i havn't been a member that long at all, but i have noticed something bout you (IP)

You keep opening your mouth without thinking first.
Or simply cut and paste anything you find.

You never back up your arguments

You never have rational arguments!

You never reply to anyone


WHY???
please answer me, theres lots more, but i ain't goin to waste my time writing stuff that u ain't even goin to reply to.

[James]

i bet u don't reply, or if u do i bet its something nasty :(

[Imperial Power]

I post what I find and let you draw your own results. Make your own conclusions, but denying facts seems to be a key in maintaining the socialist ideal on this board. james you also have to realize that it would take hours for me to post to every question question asked. At many times I'm the only capitalist in this forum and I'm busy with other things so I can't sit and research for every question.

[peaccenicked]

Clearing the Air: Myths and Concerns
Myth: "There aren't that many people earning at minimum wage levels or affected by it."
TRUTH: According to the report, Sustainable Communities, published by the City of Austin, TX the Preamble Center Study shows that 11.8 million workers are directly affected by the most recent minimum wage. This study presents that three-quarters of these workers are adults and 40% of the larger group are the sole providers for their families. For example, the Texas Alliance for Human Needs reports that fully one million Texans are earning at a minimum wage level.
Myth: "Passing a Living Wage is bad for the local economy; small companies will go out of business."
TRUTH: Paying a Living Wage is good for the local economy because small local businesses rely on local dollars. More money for city dwellers will mean more customers for municipal businesses.
Myth: "Passing a Living Wage will hurt business."
TRUTH: Paying a living wage will create new business as new revenue promotes commerce. Also, some economists argue that higher pay results in increased productivity by making jobs more desirable to both get and to keep, thereby reducing recruitment, training and supervisory costs associated with high rates of turnover.
Myth: "A Living Wage will prevent new business from locating in a municipal district."
TRUTH: Businesses choose cities because of quality of life issues and governmental considerations. According to a 1998 study issued by ICF Kaiser Economic Strategy Group of San Rafael, California, produced for the Greater Austin Chamber of Commerce entitled, Next Century Economy, "that in order to maintain Austin's economic success and high standard of livability, the region should focus on the business already here as opposed to attracting new business." The report cited three elements of a Sustainable Advantage Economy, one of which is the need for "...a long term commitment to protect the regions' environment, to improve quality of life and to address social disparity issues as the economy develops." Furthermore, the cornerstone businesses that are locating to Austin like Computer Sciences Corporation (CSC) already pay their lowest wage employees an amount well in excess of the federal minimum wage.
Myth: "Passing a Living Wage will cause other business to leave our municipality."
TRUTH: The kinds of businesses inspired to move into a municipality pay a wage or salary far in excess of a minimum wage. It is the "support" businesses like restaurants and laundries that pay minimum wage and these are support business that will stay wherever the large employers locate.
Myth: "Teenagers and young adults will be hurt by the increase."
TRUTH: According to The Sky Hasn't Fallen, a study by the Economic Policy Institute in Washington, DC, reporting the results of the most recent Federal minimum wage increase from $4.25 to $5.15 per hour, it was clearly shown that these workers were not adversely affected by the increase.

Myth: "The minimum wage won't boost the earnings of low-wage workers."
TRUTH: Also according to the report, The Sky Hasn't Fallen, the raise did increase earnings with low-wage workers which "primarily benefited low-income families." Additionally, according to the report, Americans Well Targeted Raise, also released by the Economic Policy Institute, 57% of the gains from the increase go to working families in the bottom 40% of the income scale.
Myth: "The wage increase will lead to job loss."
TRUTH: Once again, the increase did not lead to job loss. In fact, the conclusion of The Sky Hasn't Fallen report ends with, "Given the statistically and economically insignificant (and mostly positive) employment effects of the change, it might be more useful if the next debate spends less time focusing on the cost of the increase and more on the benefits to low-income families." (The report was supported by grants from the Rockefeller, and the Charles Stewart Mott Foundations and the US Department of Labor.)
Myth: "The typical minimum wage worker is a teenager working at a fast food restaurant who lives at home with parents."
TRUTH: According to the study The Sky Hasn't Fallen and the study, Americans Well Targeted Raise, both produced by the Economic Policy Institute in Washington, DC, those "typical" minimum wage workers (teenagers) account for only 7% of the total minimum wage work force. About two-thirds of minimum wage workers are over 20 years old; about two-thirds are women and about two-thirds do not live with their parents. The report confirms that 40% of them are the sole source of income in their households.
Myth: "A subminimum wage for teenagers would work."
TRUTH: Although this argument is often quoted by business concerns during their efforts to derail Living Wage Campaigns, only 5% of all fast food employees use the subminimum (training) wage structure which was made possible by the 1989 minimum wage law. Most employers recognize that they need to be wage competitive right from the start.
Myth: "If wages increase, the cost of everything else will increase."
TRUTH: Wages are just one of many factors that make up the cost of an item. Factors such as manufacturing, transportation, equipment, rent, advertising, business location, income demographics of the community, employee recruitment and training, expenses all add together with wages to create the cost make-up of an item. Clearly, the cost of goods does not have to automatically rise just because one small portion of their make-up increases. An example of the non-inflationary relationship between wages and the cost of goods can be found in the 1996 survey report entitled, "Think Again: A Wage and Price Survey of Denver Area Fast Food Restaurants." This survey focused on four national fast food chains: Arby's , Burger King, MacDonalds and Taco Bell. All are major employers of entry level, low-wage workers. It was concluded that higher prices did not necessarily accompany higher wages. In fact, "survey results indicated that higher starting salaries are coupled with only slightly higher, identical, and in many cases lower prices than those in stores that paid a lower starting wage." For example, the lowest paid Arby's employees were found at a franchise charging the second highest price for a meal. Conversely, a Taco Bell store paying $1.50 per hour above other restaurants for starting wages simultaneously had the lowest food prices among the twelve other Taco Bell Restaurants surveyed.
Overall, the study showed clearly that just because wages rise, there is not and does not have to be a corresponding increase in prices. It would appear that it is more a question of what the market will bear, or what the consumer will tolerate.

More Myths and Truths
Myth:" The best index for a national minimum wage is the Federal Poverty Guideline."
TRUTH: The Federal Poverty Guideline uses food as the basis for its make up. This probably originated during the LBJ Administration and America’s “War on Poverty.” America was concerned about poverty and the need for food especially in the Appalachian area of the North Eastern United States. The Federal Poverty Guideline is based on a basket of food staples using a multiplier of 3 and based on the number of people in a household. During this time in the early 1960s, food made up 24% of a family’s budget while housing made up 29%. Today, food only makes up 16% of a families budget and Housing now makes up 37% of a family’s budget. Clearly, food was never the appropriate standard and just as clearly, Housing continues to be the most significant item in a family budget. The seriousness of this is now evidenced as minimum wage workers all across America are becoming homeless.
Myth: "Isn't an efficiency apartment an inadequate benchmark to aim for if we are to get homeless families off the streets? How about linking the ULW formula to some sort of per-child tax credit, because wages do not take the worker's individual financial burdens into account?"
TRUTH: I greatly appreciate the idea of addressing the needs of America's families. And while the fastest growing segment of the homeless population continues to be women with children realities prevail. By just identifying efficiency apartments some of the calculated wages are around $12.00 and 13.00 per hour due to local inflation. For example, a wage to access an efficiency apartment in Austin, Texas needs to be $10.60 per hour. The wage to afford a one bedroom apartment here is $12.83. That's a $ 2.23 additional leap. Remember we're starting at $5.15 per hour. Political realities dictate that we take an approach that puts us on a track that not only points us in the right direction but that also starts to get us there. We can justify this wage because it uses existing government guidelines and it holds that no one should spend more than 30% of their income on housing. Without housing, our Nation's minimum wage work force continues to shrink and our homeless population continues to grow.
The formula allows for local communities to make upward adjustments. So if the City of Pleasantville should collectively decide it does not want a Community where a single Woman with a child are homeless and unable to afford housing, then Pleasantville can then vote to substitute the one bedroom figure into the formula. As a result, they have then customized the formula to their needs. They can do this while all America still uses the same formula.

Myth: "Shouldn't we leave the definition and the setting of a living wage up to local jurisdictions?"
TRUTH: Good Question. After all, there are over 60 living wage victories at this point. Why not just continue in that fashion? These battles are Herculean and their warriors are to be commended. They have pointed the way and led the way. But what about the communities that can't get it together to fight the economic forces? Do they not also work full 40 hour weeks? Do they not deserve a roof over their heads? Local living wage campaigns target City workers, County workers and sometimes those that contract with them (eleven private entities at my last count). And How many total workers are affected? If we doubled, no tripled, no quadrupled all of the affected workers to date, the numbers would only be in the thousands. There are 11.8 million minimum wage workers. By using a Universal Living Wage formula, we can begin to move all of them along a Living Wage Continuum. As we decide there is need to ensure access to larger size apartments to accommodate our minimum wage workers we can do so as individual communities.
Finally, it is important to remember that our Nation's unions fought long and hard for a national minimum wage when it recognized that not all could withstand local business pressure. A Universal Living Wage provides uniformity, inclusion and much greater ease of monitoring.

Myth: "Why do we need to set any sort of wage? If we let a 'Free Economy' be free, everything will work itself out."
TRUTH: I am most concerned about a "free economy" that is based in most states where the taxpayer subsidizes business with four subsidies: Food Stamps, TANF (Temporary Aid to Needy Families), GA (General Assistance--This would be for single men but Texas, for example, does not deem them worthy) and Tips. Patrons are expected to bring the minimum wage of $2.13 per hour up to $5.15 per hour by paying tips in the Restaurant Industry. Count them...four (4) subsidies. These are all subsidies that the taxpayer and patrons are expected to pay because business does not respect the value of its workers on the same level as it values the the other components of doing business; i.e.. manufacturing, advertising, transportation etc.
Why is worker value not respected on the same level? Today, business watches from the sidelines as the Federal Government sets a federal minimum wage below that minimal amount necessary to afford the most basic level of housing. This has not always been the case. Over the last 15 years, Congress has gotten behind the proverbial Eight ball as spiking inflation has occurred in many urban areas but left huge portions of our population as they were. As a result Congress cannot "fix" the Federal Minimum Wage with a single figure. One size does not fit all any more. Congress cannot pick a flat rate of say $10.00 per hour. This will continue to not get a single minimum wage worker off the streets in Washington DC, L.A., Austin etc. and at the same time it would only destroy small businesses in places like Harlington, Texas or Biloxi, Mississippi. It is for this reason that I have devised a formula that indexes the Federal Minimum Wage to the local cost of housing throughout the United States. This ensures that anyone working a 40 hour week won't have to do it either from under a bridge or by holding down a second full time job.

It is time to begin to end homelessness and to prevent it for all 11.8 million minimum wage workers.


December 9, 2001
Myth: "The boom of the 1990s has ended. In November 2001, we were told that the United States “officially” entered a recession. Wouldn’t enactment of the Universal Living Wage cause people to lose their jobs?"
TRUTH: No. Minimum wage jobs are support jobs. These low paying jobs are found in businesses such as the restaurant industry, janitorial, construction labor, landscaping, laundry and the like. These are support type businesses. They support “principal” businesses that pay well above the minimum wage. Even if we immediately enacted the Universal Living Wage, it would not affect the wages paid by these principle businesses to their lowest paid employees because they already pay more than the wages proposed under the Universal Living Wage. These minimum wage businesses will employ and unemploy people based on their need to meet the service requirements of the principle businesses.If Intel Corp. moves to town, it does not make the decision to do so based on minimum wage salary scales in as much as it does not employ workers at that low wage level. When Intel builds its offices it may contract employees such as construction laborers and ultimately landscapers. Once the facility is built, its workers need laundry services and restaurants.

Note: These support businesses do not ordinarily relocate independently of the principle businesses that they support. Clearly, in times of recession employees will be laid off but remember support businesses will maintain the number of employees necessary to satisfy the needs of the principle business.

It is clear that in manufacturing businesses, workers make up only a small portion of the budgetary concerns. Budgets include manufacturing costs, business location, shipping/ transportation, advertisement, training, warehousing, and wages. "Think Again: A Wage and Price Survey of Denver Area Fast Food Restaurants", clearly demonstrates that there is no relationship between the cost of items and the wages that large employers of minimum wage employers such as McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken feel they have to pay their employees in order to conduct their business profitably. Nonetheless, our proposed two year transitional business subsidy component will help business traverse the initial period after passage of the Universal Living Wage. This will enable these businesses to place an emphasis on the employee component of the business which is comparable to that of the other aspects of the business.


December 30, 2001
Myth: "The ULW does not affect people with fixed incomes such as those persons with disabilities."
FALSE: First, the attendants who serve these folks are clearly affected by a living wage or the lack there of.

Furthermore, it is clear that the federal minimum wage acts like a glass ceiling for those on fixed incomes such as SSI, Supplemental Security Income, which persons with disabilities might receive. The “Federal Government” does not feel it can justify a security income for someone who is not working above that which it allows for someone who is working (federal minimum wage).

Therefore, it must raise the floor of minimum wage workers to a level that allows them to afford housing and then we can argue that those persons on fixed incomes should also be supported with income that allows them to access and maintain housing without risk of financial instability.


January 7, 2002
Myth: "No one who works for a nonprofit is in it for the money. Therefore, non-profits should be exempt from paying their employees a living wage."
FALSE: It is true that employees are generally working at non-profits because they have altruistic perspectives. However, does this justify paying a wage that does not ensure them the most meager form of housing?

Also, non-profit organizations themselves are often the only portal of re-entry for those that we serve. As we help someone "up" with a job should it be at a wage that continues to keep them in a financial situation that either places housing just beyond their reach or in an unstable situation?

The National Coalition for the Homeless not only endorses and advocates for a Universal Living Wage for all workers, it also pays all of its workers by the ULW standard. We believe that non-profits should be the vanguard of the Living Wage movement. We must raise the appreciation of workers to a new level just as we must raise our appreciation of those who teach our children. We must say to both funders and economic backers whether they be for-profit or non-profit, that workers are every bit as important as the work product they produce. When we seek funding we must clearly state how much it will cost to accomplish the goal at hand which includes paying our people a fair living wage. Funders will respect this and they will provide for it if it is uniformly explained and requested as part of the normal funding application.

When small businesses approach the Small Business Administration for loans, we must encourage them to raise the level of the request for employee wages to the same level as the importance of the manufacturing budget. It should be raised to the same level as that of the advertising budget and to that of the importance of transportation, geographic location and that of product design, development and engineering.

A stabilized work force is part of the cost of doing business and in the long run will reduce overall costs. The employees and the wages they are paid are of equal importance to that of any other part of the work product and must be valued in an appropriate fashion whether the business is for-profit or non-profit.

[James]

well i'm glad that you managed to find the time to reply to my simple question, how about answering others questions that have come about because of a statement you have made.
And from what i have seen you resorted to calling people names etc.
the point is is that you put down truths that you have seen somewhere (probably without reading the rest) and don't answer questions that people have about these "truths"
so whats the point in putting them down in the first place?

[Capitalist]

peaccenicked, will you shut up and get to the point. Your comments bore me to death before I can even undertsand what your point is.

Short and simple is most effective.

By the way... Imperial Power is right - You commies are the ones ignoring the facts.

[James]

i think you have a very weak grip on reality

not all of us are communists, being a left winger doesn't make you a communist.

You never come up with anything new, its always the same "truth" and "facts" you talk about.

[peaccenicked]

It is difficult to point out facts to the brain dead.
All they want is comfortable truths. We listen to you bawl the same garbage every post. Evrything wrong with cuba nothing wrong with America. Why don't you take a reality check.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 11:17 am on Feb. 9, 2002)

[El Brujo]

Quote: from Capitalist on 6:43 am on Feb. 9, 2002
By the way... Imperial Power is right - You commies are the ones ignoring the facts.


Oh? And you and your buddies aren't? I think not responding to a post or responding with something completely off beat (and quite fanatical sometimes) classifies as "ignoring the facts", wouldn't you agree?

[sabre]

please don't generalize us all as "commies" becasue most of us arent. I appriciate your comments because they make people thing and have to argue, but theres no need for generalizations

[Imperial Power]

James I had to laugh that you said I resort to calling people names. I never have except for vox who insults me directly in every thread. Insults take all the weight away form yoru arguments and show that you can't defend your subject.

[peaccenicked]

I have looked at all of your "facts".
Which of these "facts" have I denied.
your "superior reasoning" fact.
comrade do you know what egotistical bombastic claims are.
If you are having problems with these words. You are welcome to come to my website and chat with me on my guest book.

[vox]

Hey there, Impotent Coward. How ya doin'?

Sure, I call names, and so do you, but I also make points, which you, sadly, don't even attempt to do.

I've asked you repeatedly to respond to other threads, threads that YOU started too, boy, but you don't do it.

One can only believe that you can't do it.

If you can, why, on the very earth, wouldn't you?

vox

[Xvall]

You see, In actuality peace, your comments do not bore Capitalist to death. The problem is, he is one of those adults with a plastic flag hanging on his car who just sits around all day watchign football. The reason he 'Can't understand' your comments, is because he's most likely too damn lazy to go through reading it.

- Drake Dracoli

[capi turned commie]

.......to think, I actually use to be on IP's and Capi's side

[Reuben]

Imperial Power, you may also notice that the wight is taken away from your articles by cuting and pasting articales and openly saying, as you did earlier in this thread that you don't have time to back up your arguments when people respond

[LeftoverAnimal]

Why cant people just love each other? If every body was nice to each other on this forum it would be great, you should be making constructive arguments about views and paing respect what other people want to believe, rather than being wankers or just trying to piss each other off. If everybody starts to argue constructively we would learn alot more! We all have things to teach each other and should discuss views rather than haave a stab at one side or the other over some petty thing. Be nice and we would learn alot more. And this is not just directed at the capis etc. but everyone.

[James]

Thats very true leftoveranimal. But what i was trying to achieve from this topic was to get IP's attention. Alas i feel i have achieved nothing.

[Forever capitalism]

You communists are so narrowminded when it comes to issues and reality, that is why when imperial powers posts something of relevance and importance you quickly run to your marx for beginners books, (as i doubt u have read capital volume 1, 2 and 3 and other marx writings in depth) and when you can't find any rebuttles to facts you scream and carry on. 90% of you probably live in a capitalist nation and reaps the benefits of it so stop complaining.

[Kez]

*CHANTS*

SIT DOWN IF YOU THINK THESE CAPPIES ARE DICKS
SIT DOWN IF YOU THINK THESE CAPPIES ARE DICKS
SIT DOWN IF YOU THINK THESE CAPPIES ARE DICKS
ohhhhhhh
SIT DOWN IF YOU THINK THESE CAPPIES ARE DICKS

long live british footie fans and theyre chants

comrade kamo

[James]

Forever capitalism, thats very narrow minded. I am my own person, i don't read a book and take it as gospel, i don't think i've even copy and pasted once. I havn't even read much marx "you quickly run to your marx for beginners books". I use my comon sense, which, i must say, imperial power lacks alot of. IP seems to just paste, and then not even back up his/her??? argument. When people use marx its because its relevent, and is it a crime to seek something better??? I live in England, and at the moment many of our public services are being bought by public companys in an attempt by the labour party to "save" the services. Our NHS is in such a state, some people are sent to Germany and France to get treatment because our services can't cope. BENIFIT??? And the EU, the EU members produce so much food, we could feed all the starving countries in the world, but no. We don't want them to be dependent. Another benifit? I wouldn't say that us commies are narrowminded, i'd say you are (have a look at some of your country's problems, or they way westerners treat easterners)

[Imperial Power]

James

About copying and pasting I started it to prove a point to commrade peacnicked. If you read any of his posts he has an article attached from the world socialist web. It is common sense that leads to capitalism. I present you with the shortfalls of communism yet you keep on with an "it will all work out in the end" attitude. In another thread commrade Thine Stalin just admitted that a communist state will not stay together without a dictator. James common sense tells me a dictator holding all the power is not in everyones best interest.

[Moskitto]

Thine Stalin is a Stalinist. There are many ideologies of socialism, different ideologies have different ideas. Council Communists, Democratic Socialists or Shactmanites do not have the same ideas as Kiminists, Maoists or Stalinists.

[peaccenicked]

Forever capitalism.
You tell us we are reaping the benefits of capitalism.
ie better off that pepole in the third world who have minimumal living standards. Try to understand. (from anarchist site)
"imperialism often allowed the working class of the invading country to receive improved wages and living conditions as the looted wealth was imported into the country. And as the sons and daughters of the poor emigrated to the colonies to make a living for themselves on stolen land, the wealth extracted from those colonies helped to overcome the reduction in the supply of labour at home which would increase its market price. This loot also helps reduce competitive pressures on the nation's economy. Of course, these advantages of conquest cannot totally stop the business cycle nor eliminate competition, as the imperialistic nations soon discovered.

This first phase of imperialism began as the growing capitalist economy started to reach the boundaries of the nationalised market created by the state within its own borders. Imperialism was then used to expand the area that could be colonised by the capital associated with a given nation-state. This stage ended, however, once the dominant powers had carved up the planet into different spheres of influence and there was nowhere new left to expand. In the competition to increase sales and access to cheap raw materials and foreign markets, nation-states came into conflict with each other. As it was obvious that a conflict was brewing, the major European countries tried to organise a "balance of power." This meant that armies were built and navies created to frighten other countries and so deter war. Unfortunately, these measures were not enough to countermand the economic and power processes at play. War did break out, a war over empires and influence, a war, it was claimed, that would end all wars. As we now know, of course, it did not."
States must expand or decline.
All the capitalists on this site so far have been Americanns who think they have won a watch, when all they have is a time bomb.
They ride with myopia and arrogant petty and crude materialism.
The capitalist ascendency has its roots in the law of value
which to explain is ABC of our 'brainwashed' look at reality.
"It is one of the chief failings of classical economy that it has never succeeded by means of its analysis of commodities, and in particular, of their value, in discovering that form under which value becomes exchange-value. Even Adam Smith and Ricardo, the best representatives treat the form of value as a thing of no importance, as having no connection with the inherent nature of commodities. The reason for this is not solely because their attention is absorbed in the analysis of the magnitude of value. It lies deeper. The value-form of the product of labour is not only the most abstract, but also the most universal form, taken by the product in bourgeois production. If then we treat this mode of production as one eternally fixed for every state of society, we necessarily overlook that which is the differentia specifica of the value-form, and consequently of the commodity form, and its full developments, money-form, capital-form etc."
For what you canot see is the value form and its universality.
Ticktin suggests this.
The decline of capitalism must involve a decline in the operation of the law of value. both in extent and in itself. The latter refers to the increasing replacement of labour by machinery, which is leading logically to the point where value is abolished. That has not happened, as yet, but the process of automation is obvious. As a result, prices come to be arbitrary, dependent on the degree of control over the market, rather than value. The growth of 'monopoly' is an expression of this fundamental tendency. At the present time, we might expect that the lack of alignment of value and price might be partially restored in a depression. The fact, however is that there is such a serious divergence for long periods of time that it threatens the system itself in a serious downturn."
and further
There are three aspects of decline. The first reflects the political decline of the bourgeoisie in that it was overthrown in 1917 and the whole epoch now reflects that overthrow. The second reflects the fact that value itself is more restricted or decadent, as in finance capital. The third refers to the increasing difference between actual and potential production.."
The point is that you forever blind to the forces of capitalism's destruction and when you do see. We are
The winning side , the right side, by the people
who have to live through this capitalist nightmare.
to conclude
"The twentieth century has been a century of unprecedented barbarism, precisely due to the death throes of a capitalism, which will not die. Today we witness, more than ever, untold wealth standing opposed to untold misery. Millions die of curable or preventable diseases, while the ruling class of the United States wastes 250 billions on arms production. Above all, the gap between what could be accomplished with the talents of the whole population and what is accomplished is wider than ever. Thus even at the simplest empirical level, one might have thought that decline was obvious"






(Edited by peaccenicked at 11:22 pm on Feb. 12, 2002)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 12:21 pm on Feb. 13, 2002)

[Forever capitalism]

once again another long and monotonous reply peacenicked, please limit your replies. I didn't even read that but can rebuttle you with the following sentence, "communism has never, and will never work as history has attested"

[peaccenicked]

Forever capitalism
You pompous fool . you lover of freedom of speech.
You boring drone of a dupe.
You did not read
how many words too long
then criticise as monotonous.
How can you ctiticise what you have not read. You really have stooped to the lowness of a low brow brain dead,
anal , deseased mind.
If you want a reply read and then list your objections.

[Forever capitalism]

hahah that is rich coming from somebody so intelligent they have to abuse me! A bit like communism, if you don't like what somebody is saying then you kill them or suppress them in some way right???

[peaccenicked]

If I was trying to abuse you
you would know it.
Here I merely giving an accurate description of you.

[Forever capitalism]

What has that got to do with you adhering to a failed system. Tell me one place where communism has succeeded and is still succeeded. No long, inane responses just one

[Nateddi]

The anarchist societies in spain and the paris commune. Why don't you look at the failed attempts at communism and tell me how those failures are in context with the marxist-leninist doctrine. Follow the successful guidelines, learn from the mistakes. The history is socialism's largest problem, there is no way that with your knowledge, you FC could stand a chance of defending capitalism without using same hot phrases of history to attack communism. Stalin was a dictator, he killed people for no reason. Nothing about it written in any works of marx, engels, and lenin, why not figure out how the soviet union betrayed the glorious october revolution, and learn from the past. Why not stop being a narrow minded wanker with an open mouth, FC!

Tell me please, when the US sent in troops and money to fund the white army during the russian civil war, why did they want the non-communists to win? Perhaps because it was likely that the soviet union would actually succeed. There was no bad history against communism, the US are just plutocrats and the only reason why the US government helped the whites is because they did not want a global spread of socialism, which then had no bad history at all.

(Edited by Nateddi at 5:38 am on Feb. 14, 2002)

[CimSaint]

Would you stop with this shit? You both sound retarded when you try to be clever and slam on the other guy. Present your facts, then talk about it.

And as for communism working, what about the Paris Commune? I don't know much about it except that the Prussian army invaded and crushed the new government. If they'd stayed out of the way, who can say what would have happened?

How can you say that Cuba is not an example of a successful socialist economy? It's not perfect, but the populace there is in better shape than when Batista ran things. If Cuba was capitalist, with their limited resources and space, they would be nothing more than a ***** to the United States. They would be no different than any other capitalist Carribean (sic?) nation; devided, violent, explotive, and always answering to Washington.

[Forever capitalism]

In Cuba they rationa food and resources such as petrol. Is that really successful is it??? The only thing that is rising in Cuba is the amount of prostitues on the streets. I bet Marx really envisaged that when he wrote about distribution equally of WEALTH and the accumulation of wealth that will end poverty and crime and injustice.

[peaccenicked]

Child Prostitution

BACKGROUND

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although child prostitution has been around for thousands of years, it has only achieved widespread recognition in the last few decades. End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography, and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Exploitation (ECPAT) has estimated that there are between 100,000 and 300,000 children sexually exploited through prostitution and pornography in the United States. (Source: End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography, and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Exploitation (ECPAT), Europe and North America Regional Profile, issued by the World Congress Against Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, held in Stockholm, Sweden, August 1996, p.70.)
One reason for this this type of child exploitation is because of the distorted thought that sex with juvenile prostitutes is safer than sex with adult prostitutes. This is clearly a misconception. On the contrary, children are more prone to sexually transmitted diseases than adults. Many contract sexual diseases such as gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, hepatitis-B, herpes, and HIV/AIDS.

Most juvenile prostitutes are in their mid to late teens. Contrary to popular belief, in the United States the economic status of a juvenile prostitute's family is generally middle-class. They are not running from poverty, rather from a dysfunctional family life where they suffered physical, emotional, and/or sexual abuse. As expected, many of these prostitutes suffer from low self-esteem and poor self-image. This lethal combination contributes to their becoming unfortunate victims of manipulation.

They soon find themselves hungry and alone. Like victims of sexual abuse, these children are vulnerable and crave attention, affection, and love. Initially, a pimp seduces the child by providing comfort, protection, and understanding. As he gains the child's trust, he further alienates the child, increasing the child's dependency on him. Only after a child is financially and emotionally dependent on a pimp does he introduce the child to the world of commercial sexual exploitation.

The majority of juvenile prostitutes settle in cities far from their home, some peddling themselves all around the country. Most of them have had prior involvement with the juvenile-justice system for crimes such as stealing, drugs, and truancy. Many also had substance abuse problems.

The most tangible consequence of involvement in juvenile prostitution is the extremely high probability of suffering violent assault. The vast majority of female prostitutes are beaten by their pimps and abused by their customers repeatedly. Rape is often a common-place experience for girls involved in prostitution, with up to 70 percent of female-juvenile prostitutes admitting that they have been raped by customers an average of 31 times per prostitute.

Child prostitution is the most overlooked form of child abuse in the United Sates and the public attitude towards it needs to change. There are currently no state agencies charged with identifying and investigating juvenile prostitution and recording its existence. It is often treated as a nuisance crime by local law enforcement. There is also the misconception that juvenile prostitutes are willing participants in their own victimization. Having experienced unimaginable abuse, they are truly victims in desperate need of help. Professionals from a variety of diciplines including the court system, law enforcement, and victim service agencies must increase their collective efforts to combat this problem.
Adapted from The Report on Child Prostitution as a Form of Forced Labor: A Non-Governmental Organization Perspective by Ladda Saikaew. Reprinted with permission of the Bureau of International Labor Affairs of the U.S. Department of Labor. http://www.labor.gov. Office of Publications, Department of Labor, 200 Constitution Avenue, Northwest, Washington, DC 20001.

STATISTICS
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Many prostitutes especially those between the ages of 14 and 17 can make $500-600 dollars a night. This money is often used to bail their pimps out of jail. Child prostitutes rarely see more than a $25 dollar allowance from their earnings. (Source: Ladda Saikaew. The Report on Child Prostitution as a Form of Forced Labor: A Non-Governmental Organization Perspective. Reprinted with permission of the Bureau of International Labor Affairs of the U.S. Department of Labor. http://www.labor.gov. Office of Publications, Department of Labor, 200 Constitution Avenue, Northwest, Washington, DC 20001.

There are several target groups that have been identified by the U.S. Labor Department’s Report on Child Prostitution as a Form of Forced Labor. Some examples of children who are at high risk to be involved in child prostitution are noted below.
1. A child who has been expelled from school or is no longer interested in pursuing an education, however, this child still desires the money and material items that his or her peers have.
2. A child who has an older sister or relative involved in prostitution.
3. A child whose parents are separated or divorced or a child whose parents are deceased and is living with a relative or a friend.
4. A child whose parents are drug addicts, alcoholics, or compulsive gamblers. A child whose family is living in extreme poverty, and is needed by his or her family to make money in any way possible.
Adapted from The Report on Child Prostitution as a Form of Forced Labor: A Non-Governmental Organization Perspective by Ladda Saikaew. Reprinted with permission of the Bureau of International Labor Affairs of the U.S. Department of Labor. http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/library/e_archi...ive/childlabor/ (http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/library/e_archive/childlabor/).
ECPAT has estimated that there are between 100,000 and 300,000 children sexually exploited through prostitution and pornography in the United States. (Source: End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography, and the Trafficking of Children for Sexual Exploitation [ECPAT], Europe and North America Regional Profile, issued by the World Congress Against Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, held in Stockholm, Sweden, August 1996, p.70.)
Prostitution is a seasonal problem. It is most prevalent during the warmer months and in cities with warmer climates. During the peak seasons for prostitution in the larger cities throughout the United States, there can be as many as 500 prostitutes on the streets. At least 25-30 percent of those prostitutes are children younger than 18. (Source: Haggarty, Joe. Material presented at the Prostitution and Related Offenses Workshop on October 15, 1997, at the Metropolitan Police Department Training Center, Washington, DC. )



Background and Statistics | Laws and Legislation | Prevention and Resources | Exploited Child Unit

[Imperial Power]

Peace is it really neccesary to post an article for every response? I'm beginning to think it is your argument strategy. Bore them to passive submission. No one wants to read your novels and try to find the moral. Usually the end of many threads is a 10,000 word essay on a different topic than the one being discussed. Just try to get to the point.

[Moskitto]

I was actually thinking the same as IP but about someone else.

[Imperial Power]

Thats cute moskitto, I didn't know you were a comedian.

[Moskitto]

yep, I was thinking exactly the same as IP, but I wasn't thinking about you or Peaccenicked.

But that stuff about child prostitution is not nice.

[peaccenicked]

it was a short article and in reply to forever ignorant
who only sees prostitution in Cuba.
IP you said yourself that you do not trust left wing sources.
Moskitto, you are right it is not nice and it is worse to listen hypocrits spout about prostition in Cuba who never look at the nightmare of poverty in America,
with their talk of 'unalienable' rights slabbering over the blood of innocent children.