Peace movement, BP, & Weatherman

[freakazoid]

What are your thoughts on the tactics of these three different types of movements?

Black Panther Party - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party
The Weather Underground Organization - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_%28organization%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_%28organization%29)

Here are some vids of videos about the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense and the Weather Underground. You can download them with this, http://www.downloadyoutubevideos.com/

The Weather Underground -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEKoL4MNkeU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Oi-vG1SWpc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rH70YnX8l0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAEruNACFh0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU7hTnwaNGc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilPpm81Yds0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTDwmHbit2I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4ZwA28t6_I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NTEWi0aOpk&feature=related

Underground -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxXfenh-vKY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFOpV9KjLgU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2YVkBOzUaM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wOywoF2c1c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De2PowgxRcE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De2PowgxRcE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tydLf6n2x4&feature=related

All Power to the People -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=copBLAUHGC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6R4X-LaIDM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5rVxvyz_4k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYUfE2xGUaM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LODv3zEpYWw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyA2O9_FKiY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmXvvjh_SEU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyPC-AxLrFY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXiAc7IFORM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSSMEVf8L9c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB_CevMfIJs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRh7MyzNNUU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDM4nX-qpZI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM8h2eu9BzQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK4Ohp3H11I&feature=related

They all tried to change things through different means but I think that each one was important. The peace movement tried to do it by getting trying to spread love, which is good for image. The BP tried to empower the people and learn not to take crap from the .gov through it's 10 point program, which is good for getting the community support. And the Weatherman tried to change things through direct action against the .gov, sort of a propaganda of the deed.

Limits on each, the peace movement alone won't actually change things because the .gov isn't going to go without a fight. The weatherman alone won't do it because of the image they create among the people because they just soak up what the .gov tells them. And the Black Panthers, well actually none that I can think of.

Your thoughts?

edit - Added the Underground videos

[Dean]

Your thoughts?

My user title says it all.

[Joby]

I have a lot of respect for the BPP.

The Weathermen were a bunch of idiots.

[Black Dagger]

My user title says it all.

I thought you were an anarchist?

[Dean]

I thought you were an anarchist?

I am. Why would they be exclusive?

[Black Dagger]

Because The Weatherman were a spectacular and strictly hierarchal marxist organisation?

[Jazzratt]

I have a lot of respect for the BPP.

The Weathermen were a bunch of idiots.

Your in depth analysis is striking, thank you for posting.

[RGacky3]

The weathermens tactics were pretty much stupid, blowing things up is'nt going to get people to yourside, unless of course people are already in somewhat of a revolutionary mind set.

the BPP did things well I think, so well that the United States government had to kill them, if the only thing the Government can do is resort to murder you know your doing things pretty well. The BPP could'nt be slandard, their actions were hard to twist, they did a lot of humanitarian work, they did'nt alienate people like many leftist groups do.

[blackstone]

Your in depth analysis is striking, thank you for posting.

And Deans response was any better?

[Joby]

Your in depth analysis is striking, thank you for posting.

Building an economic system outside of the mainstream capitalist one, among a group of oppressed peoples, is ingenious. Unfortunately, the "Left" would rather talk about revolution while sitting on their asses, unwilling to take any baby-steps and expecting some "spontaneous act" to mobilize everyone.

Blowing up some offices and bashing some cars, then expecting people to join you, is retarded and quite immature.

[Dean]

Because The Weatherman were a spectacular and strictly hierarchal marxist organisation?

I never knew them to be heirarchal. I like what they did as resonses to U.S. imperialism, I like how they valued human life and were very successful at direct action against the state. Some things I don't like about them, but all in all I think they were good.

How were they authoritarian?


And Deans response was any better?
What do you have against me?

[RNK]

The Weathermen, while they had the "right idea", critically failed to adopt an effective strategy. They eschewed mass organizations or mass participation and instead chose to carry out actions via propaganda of the deed.

A similar organization called the Front for the Liberation of Quebec (FLQ) carried out similar actions here in Quebec a few decades ago.

Both organizations failed because of their lack of ability to grow roots amongst the masses. Though they may have had support from sections of the masses that support was limited to little more than lip service. In the end, they were cut off, strangled, and picked off one-by-one.

The BPP is a very interesting organization and one I wish to learn more about, particularly concerning its eventual failure and disintigration. It was in my opinion incredibly progressive for its day and age (and even today I would consider it so). However, my (slightly uneducated) opinion is that the BPP failed due to the fact that after a point it failed to continue to progress, and similar to the Weather Underground was cut-off, subdued and destroyed piecemeal through an aggressive campaign by the government as well as general supporter complacency. In the end, it failed to live up to its virtue and although it made some spectacular and impressive showings it did little to actually change things, mainly because it could not, short of declaring a race war (which would not have been beneficial). I think one of the most damaging aspects of the BPP was its unwillingness to work with other revolutionary mass organizations and its insistence to pursue a line only when it benefited the black community in the most direct sense.

[Joby]

The BPP is a very interesting organization and one I wish to learn more about, particularly concerning its eventual failure and disintigration. It was in my opinion incredibly progressive for its day and age (and even today I would consider it so). However, my (slightly uneducated) opinion is that the BPP failed due to the fact that after a point it failed to continue to progress, and similar to the Weather Underground was cut-off, subdued and destroyed piecemeal through an aggressive campaign by the government as well as general supporter complacency.

You should do some research on COINTELPRO. It could be very eye-opening.

[last_angry_man]

I have a lot of respect for the BPP.

The Weathermen were a bunch of idiots.

I'll disagree and leave it at that. However...

There is a scene in the 'Weatherman" DVD/film where Fred Hampton (leader of the Chicago chapter of the BPP) is being interviewed concerning the Weathermen and he gives a hilarious and insightful reply. I think he used the term "muddleheaded" but its been a while since I last viewed the DVD and I could be mistaken about the exact terminology. The BPP generally concluded that the WU had good intentions, but the wrong tactics. I've read several interviews with different Panthers where they all reached the same conclusion: responding to police abuse with extreme force is one thing (the cops 'started it' so a violent response will have the public's sympathy). But purposelly calling out the cops and challenging them to a fight (as in 'Days of Rage") is both hopleess and counterproductive.

Violence against the cops is best when unexpected (it has a chance of success) and in response to prior abuse by the cops. (the sympathy factor)

A Bush-like "pre-emptive" strike against the cops will only result in lots of busted heads for the good guys.

But both the BPP and WU (along with Malcolm X, and even MLK, at the end of his life) understood that years of peaceful protest had done nothing to bring about the end of the Vietnam War; in fact, the USA escalated its terror bombing almost in parallel with ever larger, peaceful anti-war protests.

As the Panthers (Eldridge Cleaver?) so elequently put it: "don't talk to me about non-violence. Get the pigs to practice non-violence, then I'll be happy to consider it."

[Dean]

I have a lot of respect for the BPP.

The Weathermen were a bunch of idiots.

I'll disagree and leave it at that. However...

There is a scene in the 'Weatherman" DVD/film where Fred Hampton (leader of the Chicago chapter of the BPP) is being interviewed concerning the Weathermen and he gives a hilarious and insightful reply. I think he used the term "muddleheaded" but its been a while since I last viewed the DVD and I could be mistaken about the exact terminology. The BPP generally concluded that the WU had good intentions, but the wrong tactics. I've read several interviews with different Panthers where they all reached the same conclusion: responding to police abuse with extreme force is one thing (the cops 'started it' so a violent response will have the public's sympathy). But purposelly calling out the cops and challenging them to a fight (as in 'Days of Rage") is both hopleess and counterproductive.
I do agree that "Days of Rage" was not very reasonable.

[freakazoid]

but its been a while since I last viewed the DVD and I could be mistaken about the exact terminologyThe link that I provided is a copy of The Weather Underground.


The weathermens tactics were pretty much stupid, blowing things up is'nt going to get people to yourside,I don't think so. They were specific on there targets and made sure that people didn't die. Plus I don't think the point was to get people on your side. That is what the BPP were for, they got public support, while the Weatherman struck against the system. Both were needed. I don't think the Weatherman went far enough though, they should of systematically targeted each police station and jail and various other places. Could you imagine what that would do if they hit each police station? The cops wouldn't have a base of operations and no place to send prisoners.

[freakazoid]

Just added the videos clips to Underground, a vid about the Weatherman they made.

[RNK]

The BPP generally concluded that the WU had good intentions, but the wrong tactics.

This is my conclusion (and I said as much). Just because they pursued an idiotic tactic does not mean I feel their intentions were idiotic.


I don't think the Weatherman went far enough though, they should of systematically targeted each police station and jail and various other places.

Then we get into the matter of whether or not an organization like the Weathermen had the physical means to "make a difference". You can firebomb a police station to the ground, but chances are, a few blocks away, is another police station.

In the end their actions were more symbolic than practical and that is where the line is drawn between effectiveness and failure. The WU were too small a group to be able to do anything, and their restrictive behaviour did not allow the movement to benefit from any support. They did not engage the masses at all but acted outside of them in their own supposed interests.

[Dean]

I don't think so. They were specific on there targets and made sure that people didn't die. Plus I don't think the point was to get people on your side. That is what the BPP were for, they got public support, while the Weatherman struck against the system. Both were needed. I don't think the Weatherman went far enough though, they should of systematically targeted each police station and jail and various other places. Could you imagine what that would do if they hit each police station? The cops wouldn't have a base of operations and no place to send prisoners.

The Weathermen did get people on their side; they had vast public support among the New Left, however they simply chose not to recruit due to the secretive nature of their organization.

[freakazoid]

Then we get into the matter of whether or not an organization like the Weathermen had the physical means to "make a difference". You can firebomb a police station to the ground, but chances are, a few blocks away, is another police station.

Thats why I said each station.


They did not engage the masses at all but acted outside of them in their own supposed interests.

I don't think that should of been there job. The Black Panthers engaged the masses while the Weathemen engaged the .gov. They served a different role.

[RGacky3]

The Weathermen did get people on their side; they had vast public support among the New Left

Getting support among the new left is'nt the same as getting support from those who would'nt generally be radical leftists, thats what is needed.


Weatherman struck against the system.

Striking against the system is really worthless unless its going to achieve anything, and for a genuine revolutoin you need public support.

[Dean]

Getting support among the new left is'nt the same as getting support from those who would'nt generally be radical leftists, thats what is needed.
Perhaps. But both help.



Striking against the system is really worthless unless its going to achieve anything, and for a genuine revolutoin you need public support.
I disagree. These acts cost the state confidence, and make people aware that there is a problem. Where there is a local resistance, people will ask why. This is what we want.

[last_angry_man]

in my comment about the BPP concluding that the Weathermen were wrong, both I and the BPP were referring to the early pre-1970 days, before the bombing campaign. Fred Hampton was killed in 1969, so he was NOT referring to the bombings which came later. My comment concerned the "tactic" of announcing that they were going to "trash the city" (Chicago in the Days of Rage) and then running into an army of cops when the day arrived. That was a bad idea. And that is the 'tactic' that Fred was referring to when he called them 'muddleheaded' (or whatever term he used...)

My thoughts regarding the bombings of the early 70s are quite different and generally in line with Freakazoid's. Hell, as I stated in my post in the "Introductions" forum, I was in high school in the early 70s and hoped to join an organization like the WU when I got a little older. (being a revolutionary when you still live at home with mom and dad is just not practical...)