Franklin Roosevelt & Winston Churchill

[Capitalist]

Neville Chamberlain and Edouard Daladier are infamous for their appeasement of Hitler and Mussolini. Allowing the Fascist Movement a strong foot hold upon Europe prior to World War 2.

Both these men had good intensions on keeping peace during their time - and perhaps it is always easier looking back, than living during the moment, to say that these men were infamous idiots in signing the Munich Agreement that allowed Nazi Germany to run over Czechoslavakia.

However what about Yalta?

How could Roosevelt and Churchill allow Stalin to regain Poland, Czechoslavakia, etc?

Roosevelt and Churchill were even bigger idiots than Chamberlain & Daladier for Communist Appeasement. The Soviet Union had no claim what so ever to Romania, Czechoslavakia, Ukraine, and ESPECIALLY POLAND (Who they invaded through their Pact with Hitler via Ribbentrop).

I'm starting to think that history has let Roosevelt and Churchill off the hook to easily.

Their Appeasement of Stalin and Communist Russia was definitely unjustifiable.

[vox]

Awww, you're just mad because FDR saved capitalism. You right-wingers have never forgiven him for it.

vox

[Moskitto]

Camberlain, while wasn't perfect for appeasing Hitler, actually did the right thing. Camberlain knew war was coming. To enter the war at that time would have been suicide, Britain would no way have been able to defeat the rapidly rearming and fiercly nationalist German army. Camberlain had to buy time to build Britains army so they could actually fight them.

Czechoslavakia wasn't taken over immediately after WW2. Czechoslavakia only became sucked into the soviet satelite system in 1948 and was a multiparty democracy before then. It is one of the only "communist" countries which overthrew a democracy.

[ArgueEverything]

erm....maybe it was bcos the USSR lost more troops killed than germany, britain and the US combined?

[Guest]

The USSR basically took Eastern Europe by force, and since the USA had nuclear weapons, and the USSR was soon to get them, nobody wanted WW3 so soon after WW2. Best to let Stalin take Eastern Europe, they thought at the time.

[Moskitto]

Of course, the clever thing to do in all this would be to let the USSR and Nazi Germany blow each other apart an wait till both of them are so weak they could never fight of an invasion by Britain, France or America and then walk over them.

[James]

I think some are looking for reasons, when there arn't any.
All of the allies knew that each other had different ambitions.
There was really nothing that could be done, all there was was diplomacy.
Starting another war would not have been clever looking at the state of europe and the world at the end of WW2. Nearly all the countries were bankrupt and nearly destroyed. Not only did the allies have the task of getting their own economies back on their feet, they had germany to look after. I really don't think that the allies were that arsed with the rest of europe. They had troubles at home, they might have thought that the USSR would give back the rest of europe.
I don't think that England, france etc. could have taken care of all those other countries anyway (not saying that they needed looking after).

"I'm starting to think that history has let Roosevelt and Churchill off the hook to easily."

well i'm sorry to tell you, but i think churchill is one of the greatest men in british history. Have a little look into his history.

[HardcoreCommie]

It's easy to pass judgment on roosevelt with our 20/20 hindsight.

[Capitalist]

Winston Churchill also proved to be a strong roadblock in North Ireland independence from Britian.

Don't get me wrong - I admire the man. Nobody is perfect.

But the fact remains, FDR & Churchill definitely appeased Stalin. The USSR had no claim to Poland, Romania, and the rest of Eastern Europe.

The Berlin Wall - Looked so beautiful from the outside with all that graffiti and ideals painted on the outside. But from the inside - it oppressed an entire people - holding them captive, ignorant, and poor for years upon years.

Rage against the Machine?

Well.

My machine will tear down your walls.

[James]

Well some information for you. When world war 2 started, the UK joined in the war with the initial intention of increasing the empire. take Norway for example.
THE FACT REMAINS-WHAT COULD THEY HAVE DONE?
start world war three?

[Capitalist]

The fact remains

FDR and Churchill appeased Stalin.

[vox]

FDR and Churchill didn't agree to anything that they didn't want to agree with.

Eastern Europe was given to the USSR. This isn't news, and it isn't surprising.

We divided up the world after the war. Just ask the Palestinians. Heck, a whole country was finally created because no one wanted the Jews.

vox

[pastradamus]

Roosevelt & churchill were the biggest idiot's on the face of the earth.Stalin was a political genious.

When opperation barbarossa started,Stalin wanted the big two to attack from the west,It took them a good while to do that.reason being,they wanted the facists & the communists to destroy each other.
& when they finally attacked the red army were on the offensive.
Even till today the russians are under the impression that the U.S & BR only invaded to stop the ussr from consuming the whole of europe & germany & therefore turing them into communist nations.

[lordbynight]

Whats really funny is that if it was not for Stalin and Russia We might have all been nazi right now.
so fuck the capitalist the imperialist, and fuck the diez brothers.
I bury those cocaroaches....

[James]

The British, Canadians, US etc. could not invade till they were ready. I think that some of you really do look far too deeply into some of these situations.

Getting several armies across the channel was not easy at all (many boats sank before they even saw action).

"Roosevelt & churchill were the biggest idiot's on the face of the earth.Stalin was a political genious."


Churchill was not an idiot, hes the only reason Nazism didn't spread across the whole world. At one time (Battle of Britain sort of period) Britain stood alone, with no support from the US (part from bit of food). Churchill gave hope to the people, don't you think it amazing how one small, starving country held off such a big force? Stalin was not really a political genious, he was a just a gready so'n'so (such a good communist that he allied with the nazis!!! That is untill they get turned on, and nearly destroyed by them).

[Capitalist]

Stalin didn't care about anyone but himself. - a fucking goof ball regardless of his power.

"Bozo the Clown" was more respectable than Stalin.

Stalin = biggest idiot in history - to be replaced soon by Sadamm Hussein.

Stalin feared Hitler. He appeased Hitler to the very last moment (sending shipments of food, oil, and iron)

The USSR was totally caught off guard by their Once NAZI Ally. The tide only turned once the extreme cold set in and the USA began to deliver large shipments of needed machinery to the Soviet Union.

Cold Weather and United States Production saved the USSR.

Churchill never feared Hitler for a second - even when England was the only prey left after Nazi Germany - devoured France. "We will never surrender" - Churchill (The man had balls).

Stalin just watched and cheerfully congradulated Hitler on his success in France.

Stalin had no idea.

Completely a clueless idiot.

My point is final - it was just a complete crime that Churchill and Roosevelt allowed the Soviet Union so much after World War 2.

The Appeasement of Stalin was just unexcusable!

What the hell was Churchill and Roosevelt thinking?

[Capitalist]

Somebody had their head

up their ass

at Yalta.

[El Brujo]

Churchill was friends with Francisco Franco who we all know was supported by Hitler in the Spanish civil war. He had nothing to do with the USSR.

[Moskitto]

They were probably trying to stop WW3. Courtois' 100 million death toll of communism isn't as bad as 4 billion dead in a nuclear holocaust is it?

Annother thing, how can you say "Long Live Thatcherism" yet criticise Churchill when Churchill was a better leader?

(Edited by Moskitto at 7:29 pm on Feb. 14, 2002)

[James]

"Stalin had no idea.

Completely a clueless idiot"

Wrong. The russian intelligence knew, and told him. It was on ver rare occasions that Stalin listened to anyone.

Thanks Moskitto, finally some one who sees what i were trying to say. Starting a third world war would not have been clever. It really would have been the end of the world, however i don't think any side was really in any state to continue fighting.

I don't think you have listened to anything that i've said Capitalist. Have you?

[El Brujo]

Well, what do you expect? Its the typical narrow-mindedness of right-wingers.

[El Commandante]

Capitalist, you really should become better informed before you lauch your half-assed arguements. Churchill was a staunch anti-communist, not the kind of person that will appease the Soviet Union. As people have said before he supported Franco in Spain. Before Stalin formed the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany him and his diplomats had desperately been trying to form some sort of alliance with Britain and France, something along the lines of the entente in WW1. France were all for it and pledged support and equipment and expertise for the modernisation of the Russian Army. But Churchill didn't want anything to do with it, he in fact wanted the Nazi's to invade Russia, he hoped that they would both beat the crap out of each other and run out of steam and be destroyed. He used every tactic possible, losing files, sending representatives who had no authority, late to meetings on the slowest form of transport.

The reason that the Russians got Eastern Europe was because the allies decided to invade southern France, which was the idea of Eisenhower. Churchill wanted to invade the Yugoslav area as he felt that it would have more impact and stop the Russians getting it. By the time of Yalta it was too late the British and Americans to do anything because the Red Army was steam rollering through all lines of resistance and was capturing country after country.

Also who was it who made the Iron Curtain speech? Winston Churchill, that speech really sounded like the words of an appeaser, compare his words to those of Chamberline (a real appeaser) and you can see the difference. So no, Churchill was not an appeaser, he was a drunk, fat, narrow minded git who was an upper class moron.