The rise and fall of the american empire

[peaccenicked]

The Rise and Decline of the American Empire Tom Wetzel.

The Historic Basis of American Prosperity
Part of the popular support for militarism in the U.S. has been the myth that American postwar prosperity was based on the U.S. position as Number One in military power. Actually, this reverses the cause-and-effect relationship. The U.S. came to be the dominant industrial power in the capitalist world through the long period of industrial growth from the Civil War to World War II. It was this industrial prowess that enabled the U.S. to build up the military forces during World War II that put the U.S. in the driver's seat on the world stage at the end of war. This industrial prowess also enabled the U.S. to provide a higher level of material consumption for the working class in the postwar boom years. This economic dominance and prosperity was based on the fact that America had a higher labor productivity -- value produced per worker -- than the other industrialized countries (Japan and Europe). How did this come about? Here we need to look at how the world business system functioned during the century leading up to World War II. World War II marked the end of an era, an historic turning point in the evolution of world capitalism.
A truly international capitalism, based on relatively open mobility of goods and capital across national lines, existed in only a rudimentary or embryonic form prior to World War II. In that era the business class of each nation used its control of its own state to rope off its national market, making penetration by businesses of other nations very difficult.

The small size of the markets in a single nation posed a limit to business growth, however. By each national business class pursuing its own narrow advantage, the result was fragmentation of the world market along national boundary lines, which tended to restrict the possibilities for growth of all businesses by restricting world trade.

Faced with this problem, the European and Japanese business classes, on the one hand, and the American business class, on the other hand, pursued different strategies to expand their markets.

The main expansionist strategy of the European business classes during the 19th century was colonialism; that is, each country would try to carve out areas of control in the third world, using its technological superiority translated into military terms. The raw materials and labor and markets of these colonies were for the exclusive exploitation of businesses centered in the home country. The inherent weakness of this colonialist strategy, from a capitalist point of view, is that the bulk of the populace remained in poverty and therefore provided not much of a market for the goods of the home country. In the absence of industrial development, many people lived by subsistence farming and were thus minimally involved in the market economy.

The most successful of these colonial systems in the 19th century was that built up by Great Britain. In addition to the external control of third world countries like India, Britain also pursued the development, in some areas, of new settler states (Australia, Canada), transferring people, skill and capital from the home country. Though the settler states provided more of a market than third world countries, this strategy was limited because of the relatively small populations of the new settlements.

Britain's settler state strategy was also set back a bit by the anti-colonial revolt in America. Partly as a result of that revolt, there were strong currents in the U.S., right up to the eve of World War II, that preferred a "neutralist" foreign policy, opposing a permanent military buildup or expansion of American intervention beyond its home "turf" in the Americas. The Permanent Arms Economy of today simply didn't exist in the U.S. prior to World War II.

The consensus in favor of a global imperialist role for the U.S., and the development of the postwar Military/Industrial Complex, was forged out of the American victory in World War II and the destruction of the native Left during the Cold War. But before the war, the absence of such a political consensus forced the U.S. business class to pursue a different strategy for market expansion than its European and Japanese competitors.(9)

Forged out of its settler state experience, the American business class developed a strategy based on the expansion of the home country itself. Through the ruthless destruction of the indigenous American Indian communities and the violent conquest of the northern third of Mexico, and peopled by endless waves of European immigration (and Africans brought over in chains), the American business class pushed the westward expansion of the American state and the internal integration of this vast area and burgeoning population into a single national market.

This huge, integrated state provided the American business class with a vastly larger national home market than that enjoyed by their European or Japanese competitors. This permitted American industry to achieve much greater "economies of scale" than European or Japanese industry, which reduced per unit costs of production. The high U.S. profit rate also fueled innovation and investment in technical changes aimed at further increasing the productivity of labor.

This meant that the cost structure of European and Japanese industry at that time was uncompetitive with American industry -- a factor that militated in favor of the trade barriers that fragmented the world market. This fragmentation into insulated national market systems also tended to translate into frequent military conflicts between competing capitalist powers. By World War II American industry had built up a huge investment of capital to operate on the vast scale permitted by the continent-wide American market, which permitted the American workforce to produce more market value per worker than any other country. This higher productivity, combined with the traditions of struggle for personal and organizational freedom in this country, was the reason for the higher levels of material consumption enjoyed by the American working class at mid-century.(10)

An Historic Turning Point
With military power newly erected on this massive industrial base during World War II, the American business class at the end of the war looked at Europe and Japan in ruins and saw their opportunity to remake the world structure of capitalism to permit the unhindered expansion of American business throughout the globe.
With their mercantilist/colonialist strategies exhausted through two world wars and world-wide depression, the European and Japanese business classes were forced to adapt to the American project of world-wide open trade. With greatly reduced trade barriers, and a mechanism in place to resolve trade disputes (GATT), and various world financial institutions also in place (World Bank, IMF), business was now confronted with the possibility of operating on a world scale. Within not too many years after the war the former colonies of European powers were granted their independence since their colonial status was no longer required to ensure access for European business.

The American business class, with over half of the total world production capacity at the end of World War II, was initially in the best position to take advantage of this new situation. This fact was, of course, the main material motive for the American efforts to construct this new world order. However, the fact that the American business class had never been seriously committed to a mercantilist/colonialist strategy, unlike European and Japanese capital, was an important factor as well.

Ironically, this postwar world market system has been the undoing of the American business class, eroding their hegemony on the world scene. Japanese and European capital are now able to operate on a world scale and thus enjoy for the first time the same "economies of scale" as their American competitors. In short, the historic basis of the higher prosperity of America has been destroyed. Faced with the stark realization that the U.S. no longer has any particular advantage in the area of production of industrial and consumer goods, the main sectors of the business class can now see no way out other than relying on this country's one remaining advantage: Military Muscle. This addiction to military coercion clearly shows the moral bankruptcy and incompetence of American business class leadership.

Over the long run the ability of a country to maintain military power is directly dependent on its economic capacity. The transformation of the U.S. into a debtor nation dependent on petro-dollars and the Tokyo financial markets shows the serious stresses from America's role as "world cop"; the U.S. can't maintain its position by borrowing money forever.

The American working class has nothing to gain by the maintenance of this imperialist role. The bloated military machine is a drag on American prosperity, siphoning funds that could be used for investment in increased productivity in industry or badly needed social services such as health care.

The U.S. role as the world's Number One ass-kicker tends to sustain the third world as an area of low wages and non-existent environmental restrictions for ready exploitation by American capital. This provides incentives for American companies to relocate operations to these areas and puts downward pressures on wages in the U.S. and discourages anything that increases cost structures for companies operating here, such as health benefits or environmental protections.

For a continuation see, the article Every Nation-state is Imperialist by Nature.

Notes
9. Note that I am not saying that the American state was not imperialist before World War II. The point is that imperialism took a different form here than in Europe. The American state did, of course, acquire a few colonies that were never intended for integration into the American home state (e.g., the Philippines) but colonialism and permanent military forces were limited.
10. America tended to have higher wage levels than Europe even prior to the massive industrialization of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The ready availability of free land in North American prior to the 20th century, and the widespread knowledge of farming skills among immigrants, meant that it was hard to get people to work for wages; they often preferred to work their own farm rather than be under the thumb of a boss. Indeed, this was the reason for the introduction of slave-labor (initially using both white and black slaves) for large-scale plantation farming in Virginia in the 17th century: it was the only way to get the necessary labor force.

Labor scarcity in America tended to bid up wage levels . The higher wage structure of the U.S. tended to provide a better home market for native manufacturing which facilitated the industrialization of the late 19th century. Though free land was no longer available in the 20th century, the higher wage structure in America was sustained by the higher productivity of American industry.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:33 pm on Jan. 30, 2002)

[Supermodel]

How old is this article? I would say these conditions were evident at the end of the Reagan era but not today. America's military-inductrial complex, while still enormous, no longer feeds the economy the way it did during the cold war and especially during the reagan era.

America's biggest products are agricultural, manufactured good and raw steel, and entertainment.

Services and tourism continue to grow as strong factors in the economy.

Thus it is not the sheer size, but the diversity of the American economy that keeps it strong. America relies on no foreign sovereignty for much of anything. As soon as dick-head Daschle gets off his butt and passes an energy bill, we will no longer need saudi oil.

Finally, the greatest strength of the American economy is its ability to change rapidly and adapt to new conditions, which may be the positive flip side of the country having no traditions and in some cases morals.

Am I helping or getting you mad?

[peaccenicked]

the points you make are reasonable.
I think the article is quite old.
Nevertheless the broader point is that cheap labour abroad can only undercut labour costs in the U$A and the war machine is cutting into investment for need.
U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 30 Jan 2002 at 09:57:13 PM GMT is:

$5,935,004,614,820.86


The estimated population of the United States is 286,146,054
so each citizen's share of this debt is $20,741.17.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1,026 million per day since September 28, 2001!

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock

This spells even more decline than the last time. Clinton?
I think.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 11:30 pm on Jan. 30, 2002)

[Supermodel]

Cool, I know the guy who invented that clock and keeps it up to date.

You are right, labor is much cheaper in the third world but I struggle every day with the concept that the pittance they make while they churn out toys and clothes and CDs for us westerners is in fact keeping them and their families alive. So, stopping the exploitation of them is stopping their livelihood, the same problem Stalin faced when the peasantry starved on the path to communal farming.

Personally I haven't stopped buying third world products because I think I'm keeping someone alive, even if massive profit percentages also go somewhere else.

[Moskitto]

Supermodel, Buy Fairtrade.

More profits go to the farmers.

[reagan lives]

I'm sorry, I'm very stupid, and I'm just not following the discussion here. I scoured that opening post for a thesis, and found none. Then Supermodel said some fairly general and cryptic things. Then peacenick said something about the US national debt. And so forth. What is the point?

[peaccenicked]

It seems that another part of the decline of the American empire is the inability of the republican /libertarian jetset who are the head lice of this bb to be able to read descriptive articles. All
IP has is a few words at his disposal capitalism = freedom undeniable.He thinks repeating this mantra will
send the people reading this into a slavish slumber and hostility towards Che and his ideas. This obssessive
fetish of IPs is not quite as pronounced as Reaganspivs. He likes to prentend to us he scouring this bb looking for
a reasonable argument from a reasoned position.
He wrote that international law does not exist. I showed him an article from an American law proffessor.
All I got was a reasonable silence.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 5:54 pm on Jan. 31, 2002)

[Supermodel]

Me, cryptic? I'm not smart enough to do that!

I'm just saying the american economy and way of life, in some form or another, are here to stay.

Now foreign policy, that's the one thing that MUST change.

[reagan lives]

And then peacenick responds with some ad hominem bullshit, completely unprovoked. Could it be that even he doesn't know what his point is?

[hardcore capitalist]

congratulations reagan lives, peaccenicked has no point, hes just another dumb socialist, and supermodel, we don't need a change in our foreign policy, America will always continue to prosper, we're the biggest baddest country around, that's why we're the best, we help 3rd world countries with humanitarian aid, and all the other countries look up to us.

GO USA!!!!!

[peaccenicked]

Half your country seems to be wondering why america is so hated abroad and you think it is liked, baddest you mean feared. You see no point because you don't want to see any point ad infinitum.
Everything is going great according to Bush. "Long live the American dream don't wake me up." (applause)
By the way what do you call your national debt -
a blip on the edge of reality. It is obviously too far away for you to see. Those rose tainted spectacles dont last forever. oh dear whats that huge tax return adoing on my little old desk.

[hardcore capitalist]

Everything is great, watch the news sometime you moron! Other evil countries can't help but attack us cause they're jealous of our freedom and democracy.

[El Brujo]

Right, helping them by setting up fascist dictatorships in their country's and sucking them dry of as much of their hard earned money as possible with your imperialist corporations. What a fucking joke. Malte, I think we have a spammer here.

[rebel with a cause]

Hardcore capi, check this link

http://zena.secureforum.com/cartoons/show_...t.cfm&artist=17 (http://zena.secureforum.com/cartoons/show_toon.cfm?toonID=404&toonList=549,542,536,535,529,530,512,513,493,489,4 69,463,457,439,436,427,424,417,404,393,382,374,375 ,360,361,362,355,356,357,346,347,348,329,330,331,3 32,333,308,309,310&index=by_artist.cfm&artist=17)

.....ignorant Americans....ugghhh!!!!!

[hardcore capitalist]

hmmmm?

[hardcore capitalist]

Those have to be false statements, where's your proof?

[rebel with a cause]

My proof? How about 1 million dead bodies of innocent Iraqis? The news you so profoundly acclaimed in one of your other ridiculous posts, its full of lies, neglect, and censorship that's why you never hear of the malicious deeds of the U$ unless you search outside the system, I know firsthand, I was once an ignorant American like you!

[peaccenicked]

From The state of the union address.
'It costs a lot to fight this war. We have spent more than a billion dollars a month -- over $30 million a day -- and we must be prepared for future operations. Afghanistan proved that expensive precision weapons defeat the enemy and spare innocent lives, and we need more of them. We need to replace aging aircraft and make our military more agile to put our troops anywhere in the world"
Really great 'hardcore' capitalism what do you do for encore drop bombs on more innocent people.
Here is an isolationist libertarian thoughts.
TWO THUMBS DOWN
Despite the huzzahs from the President’s amen corner – which now include Democrats as well as Republicans when it comes to foreign policy – as propaganda Bush’s speech was remarkably dull and unconvincing. He started out touting our glorious victory, celebrating the ignominious defeat of a bunch of bedraggled half-civilized tribesmen by the mightiest army on earth: we not only "rallied a great coalition," he declared, but also

"Captured, arrested and rid the world of thousands of terrorists, destroyed Afghanistan's terrorist training camps, saved a people from starvation and freed a country from brutal oppression."

As if the outcome was ever in doubt – and the warlords hadn't already started shooting at each other. Never has there been so much chest-pounding bravado and triumphlist hysteria over so little. When Caesar subdued the Gauls, he didn’t make half as much noise about it. Okay, then, so we won: mission accomplished, over and out. Ah, but not so fast…

WE’VE ONLY JUST BEGUN
We are told that thousands of terrorists – Bush says as many as 100,000 – are roaming the earth, with but one thought in mind: to target America:

"What we have found in Afghanistan confirms that, far from ending there, our war against terror is only beginning. Most of the 19 men who hijacked planes on September the 11th were trained in Afghanistan's camps. And so were tens of thousands of others. Thousands of dangerous killers, schooled in the methods of murder, often supported by outlaw regimes, are now spread throughout the world like ticking time bombs, set to go off without warning."

$30 million a day.
All we hear is radio ga ga



(Edited by peaccenicked at 3:54 pm on Feb. 1, 2002)

[hardcore capitalist]

Look, innocent lives is part of war, America did absolutely everything possible to avoid civilian casualties and other damage to the country that so desperately needed our help to escape from the wrath of the Taliban.

[rebel with a cause]

Quote: from hardcore capitalist on 8:51 pm on Feb. 1, 2002
Look, innocent lives is part of war, America did absolutely everything possible to avoid civilian casualties and other damage to the country that so desperately needed our help to escape from the wrath of the Taliban.

First of all, OUR country!, instead of going through Aghanistan with a scalpel looking for terrorists, they went through with a fuckin bulldozer!

Did everything possible to prevent civilian casualties, right........
they did every inhumane thing they could get away with.
You know that red-cross center that was accidentally bombed?
The government damn well knew what their coordinates were, because they sent it to them twice, not to mentuion the fact it had a giant visible red cross on the roof and it was bombed during broad daylight!!!!

A country that needed our help, it was OUR fault the Taliban was erected in the first place, the U$ was helping Afghanistan get rid of the commies in the 80's, (even stooped so low as to hiring Mr. bin Laden to the CIA and giving him the fake name of Tim Osman and assisted with manpower and financially his organization).

We so wanted to help them, c'mon you know Bush&CheneyCo. are oil-craving sluts, $$$$$$$

Now they've got a new government, with 2 women members!!!!

Ladi-frickin-dah

the women of afghanistan still cant vote, if your gonna have a government, how succesful can it be if 50% of the population is excluded?

Now I'm not pro-taliban, I'm just here to enlighten your ignorant ass.

.................................................. ...................................

this is a little old, but read up on what u missed over the last couple months cause you were paying attention to FOX, CNN, MSNBC, and the newspapers

What you haven’t heard.
It was early evening and the villagers were just sitting down to dinner. It was a cold, clear night, but not as quiet as usual, because the village was swollen with refugees who had escaped from the bombing of Jalabad, 30 miles away. As the prayers finished and the food was served, the meal was suddenly interrupted by the sound of two jets flying overhead, followed quickly by the roar of bombs exploding.
Men ran from their houses to check on the damage, but the women and children stayed indoors. Only a few people were injured. The bombs must have fallen by mistake; there was no military target nearby. This place was safe. But the jets turned and made a second pass over the village, and then a third, each time dropping more ordnance onto the homes of Karam, a rural, mountain village in Afghanistan.
Surviving residents and several reporters say that the village was completely destroyed by US bombs. Over 100 people, perhaps as many as 200, were killed--mostly women, children, and old people. Many of the bodies still remain interred in the ruins.
The US government says that Karam was once a training camp for Al Qaeda. In fact, the site was used to train mujahideen during the 1980s and was run by Sadiq Bacha to train members of the Hezb-i-Islami faction with CIA support.
Some of those men later joined the Taliban, but the base was never used by Al Qaeda. It was closed and abandoned in 1992, before bin Laden moved to Afghanistan. In the 1990s, families moved in and built mud and rock houses on the site. During the winter, nomads also made Karam their temporary home. Obviously, the US military relied on old, outdated, and incorrect information.
This has happened before: take, for example, the October 9th bombing of the Afghan Technical Consultants offices, a UN agency responsible for removing landmines in Afghanistan. The US government claims that ATC was near a military radio tower, but UN officials say the tower was a defunct and abandoned medium and short wave radio station that hadn't been in operation for over a decade. And the ATC had even given its address to higher-ups at the UN to pass on to the US military, so the ATC offices would not be hit.
Four men were killed in the explosion, including two security guards: Najeebullah, a father of five young children, and Safiullah, a father of four. The other two victims were Nasir Ahmad, a newly married medical nurse, and Abdul Saboor. Only two days before, Saboor had volunteered to make the perilous trip from Pakistan into Afghanistan on foot to deliver much-needed cash salaries to UN employees. Just two hours after he arrived at the ATC offices, his body was blown apart in the explosion, along with the money that was sent with him.
How often has the US military made this kind of mistake? It's impossible to know, since the Taliban have expelled all western reporters and Pakistan has closed its border with Afghanistan, making it hard for reporters to get into the country. Pakistani border guards are beating Afghan refugees with sticks and firing guns at them to keep them from crossing into Pakistan, where their stories of the bombing may further enrage the Pakistani populace.
But the refugees who can afford to pay bribes or are well enough to make the hike over mountainous terrain are finally making it into Pakistan and telling their stories. Here is a small collection of the civilian deaths told to reporters so far. None of these accounts come from Taliban sources; all are from refugees and western or Pakistani reporters.
In Jalalabad, the Sultanpur Mosque was hit by a bomb during prayers, with 17 people caught inside. Neighbors rushed into the rubble to help pull out the injured, but as the rescue effort got under way, another bomb fell, killing at least 120 people.
In the village of Darunta near Jalalabad, a US bomb fell on another mosque. Two people were killed and dozens--perhaps as many as 150 people--were injured. Many of those injured are languishing without medical care in the Sehat-e-Ama hospital in Jalalabad, which lacks resources to treat the wounded.
More civilian deaths are being reported in the villages of Torghar and Farmada, north and west of Jalalabad. At least 28 civilians had died in Farmada, which has an abandoned Al Qaeda training camp nearby. In Argandab, north of Kandahar, 10 civilians have died from the bombing and several houses have been destroyed. The same has happened in Karaga, north of Kabul.
A five-year-old child was killed while sleeping in his family's home outside Kandahar when two bombs fell on a munitions storage area half a mile away. The explosion threw shells and rockets in all directions and one of those shells smashed through the mud-brick wall of his bedroom, slicing open young Taj Muhammed's abdomen and burning his six-year-old sister, Kambibi. Taj suffered for 12 hours at a nearby hospital before he died.
On Oct. 7, the first night of the bombing, US planes targeted the Hotel Continental in Kabul. Taliban commanders have stayed at the hotel, but civilians also stay there on a regular basis. In the first wave of bombing, at least one private residence in Kabul suffered a direct hit and others were damaged. On the same night, bombs were dropped on the houses of Taliban leaders in Kandahar. Two civilian relatives of Mullah Muhammad Omar were killed: his aged stepfather and his 10-year-old son.
On Oct. 8, the second night of the bombing, three missiles were aimed at the airport in Jalalabad, but only one hit the target. The other two went astray and exploded nearby, killing one civilian, and injuring a second so severely that he needed to be driven to a hospital in Peshawar, Pakistan, to have shrapnel removed from a deep wound in his neck and his spinal injuries treated. He's not expected to survive. A third 16-year-old boy injured in the same attack was also taken to a hospital in Peshawar; he lost his leg and two fingers, and he says that many more people were injured and may have died in the same incident.
On Oct. 11, a bomb aimed at the Kabul airport went astray and hit Qala-e-Chaman, a village one mile away, destroying several houses and killing a 12-year-old child. Three other houses collapsed from the explosion, and at least four civilians were injured. On the same night, another missile hit a house near the Kabul customs building, killing 10 civilians.
As of Oct. 12, the UN had independently reported at least 20 civilian deaths in Mazar-i-Sharif and 10 civilian deaths in Kandahar.
On Oct. 13, Khushkam Bhat, a residential district between Jalalabad airport and a nearby military area, was accidentally bombed by US planes trying to down a Taliban helicopter. More than 100 houses were flattened.
At least 160 people were pulled from the rubble and taken to hospitals.
On Oct. 16, two bombs fell on two Red Cross warehouses in the center of Kabul. The warehouses, bombed in full daylight, were clearly marked with red crosses on their roofs. US spokesmen claim that the warehouses were hit because there were military vehicles parked nearby. But those were Red Cross transport trucks.
On Oct. 17, a bomb scored a "direct hit" on a boy's school in Kabul, but fortunately didn't explode. A US plane, however, dropped a bomb at Mudad Chowk, a residential area of Kandahar, which did explode, destroying two houses and several shops, and killing at least seven people. In Kabul, four bombs fell near the city center; casualties are as yet unknown.
On Oct. 18, a bomb killed four members of a family in the eastern suburb of Qalaye Zaman Khan when it demolished two homes. A half a mile away, another bomb exploded in a housing complex, killing a 16-year-old girl.
The UN reports that Kandahar has fallen into a state of "pre-Taliban lawlessness," with gangs taking over homes and looting shops.
On Oct. 19, the UN announces that at least 80% of the residents of Kandahar have left the city to escape the bombing and are swamping the surrounding villages, where there are no resources to care for them. Some have moved on to the border and crossed into Pakistan. One refugee said that there are bodies littering the streets of Kandahar and people are dying in the hospitals for lack of drugs. "We know we will lead a miserable life in Pakistan, in tents," he said. "We have come here just to save our children."
The civilian death toll is in the hundreds, probably thousands, and sure to rise with two new developments. US Air Force pilots have been given the go ahead to fire "at will"--at anything they desire, without pre authorization from strategists peering at satellite and surveillance photos. In fact, there are now regions of the country that have been designated "kill boxes," patrolled night and day by low-flying aircraft with the mission to shoot anything that moves within the area. There has been no mention of how Afghan civilians will know where such "kill boxes" are and how to avoid them.
In addition, US planes are now dropping cluster bombs. Cluster bombs are like landmines on steroids; they fall, release hundreds of small "bomblets," which disperse and explode, slicing through people, cars, trucks, and even certain types of buildings. Notably, about 8-12% of the brightly-colored bomblets don't explode on impact, leaving behind attractive but deadly toys for children to play with later. Thousands of Afghan children were killed or maimed by similar bombs and attractive booby traps dropped by the Soviets in the 1980's.
As if that weren't horrible enough, the UN says that many of the US's air-dropped food packets have landed on minefields; this will lure starving refugees to gruesome deaths. After two decades of war, Afghanistan still has 10 million landmines buried in the ground.

There is a myth here in America that terrorists attacked the World Trade Center because "we're the freest nation on Earth." If that were true, you and I would be free to read the details about the Afghanistan bombing campaign in the US press. But we're not allowed that particular freedom.
In Britain, however, the press has been following the course of the war in some detail and reporting on the civilian casualties, the worsening humanitarian condition, and the dropping of cluster bombs on villages. Not a word of this can be found in the US press.
Because of their freedom to read the truth, the British public is beginning to change its mind about the progress of the war. According to a Guardian/ICM poll, 54% are in favor of halting the bombing campaign, at least temporarily, to allow aid agencies to feed hungry refugees, treat wounded civilians, dispose of unexploded cluster bombs, and help restore electricity and water to Kabul, Herat, and Kandahar.
In spite of the selective reporting here in the US, a huge majority of Americans--a whopping 75%--think that the US hasn't got a chance in hell of capturing or killing bin Laden, according to an Oct. 30 CBS-New York Times poll. Only 30% think that the "international alliance" will hold. This shows how really slim American support for the war is; it's a very small step from believing that the war is unwinnable to thinking that the war should be stopped.
We don't know how many Americans would change their minds if they could possess the freedom that the British public takes for granted. In that spirit, here's a toll of civilian casualties--a continuation of the list that ran in the last issue of ETS!:
On Oct. 18, intense bombing over Kabul killed 10 people in Kalae Zaman Khan, 3 people near the Kabul airport, and 2 civilians in Kabul's Khair Khana district. An 8-year-old girl perished in the Macroyan housing project. A US bomb damaged the offices used by CNN contract workers in Kandahar (the bomb was meant for a vehicle parked nearby). Reuters reported that all water supplies in Kabul have been bombed out and electricity is only being supplied to select parts of the city for 15 minutes per day--not long enough for doctors to perform operations in hospitals.
A 10-year-old Afghan boy in a Pakistani hospital describes cluster bomblets that exploded while he and his friends played near their homes in Kandahar. Shrapnel cut a hole in his head. He doesn't know what happened to his friends.
On Oct. 19, a US bomb struck the Sarai Shamali marketplace in Kabul and killed more than a dozen civilians.
On Oct. 20, refugees reported a mass exodus of people from Kandahar and Herat, leaving the two cities 70-80% empty. The UN reported that many people who had fled to rural areas are beginning to head for the borders with Pakistan and Iran in search of food. Refugees also reported that US bombs are driving Taliban fighters into the cities to take up residence in mosques and abandoned homes, further endangering civilians.
On Oct. 21, a US bomb demolished two homes in the Khair Khana district in northern Kabul. An AP reporter saw 7 dead: 3 women and 4 boys, ages 8 to 13. A doctor at the nearby hospital reported a total of 13 dead from the incident, all members of the same extended family.
At 7:20 PM, the tiny village of Doori near Kandahar was completely destroyed by two US bombs. At least 25 people were killed and a 12-month-old baby was taken to a hospital in Pakistan. His tiny, burned, cut face is broadcast on media all over the Middle East and Europe--but not here in the US.
A US bomb fell on a tractor/trailer carrying dozens of civilians fleeing bombing in the town of Tirin Kot. At least 20 people were killed, including 9 children.
On Oct. 22, Taliban officials claimed that the US is using chemical weapons in Afghanistan. They said doctors in Herat and Kandahar described "a state of poisonousness" in patients injured by shrapnel. They could be referring to sickness caused by depleted uranium munitions, which produced sickness in injured soldiers and civilians in the Gulf War, Serbia, and Kosovo.
Also that day, Chowkar-Karez, a farming village about 60 km north of Kandahar, was destroyed just before midnight by US bombs. The Taliban claimed 90-100 civilian dead, almost the entire population of the village; Human Rights Watch estimates 25-35. Six survivors interviewed by Human Rights Watch were all adamant that there was nothing in their remote village that ought to have attracted the interest of the U.S. military. Other witnesses talked to by the Western reporters claimed there were no Taliban troops in the village and that U.S. planes opened fire on people as they attempted to flee the bombs. After Rumsfeld professed ignorance repeatedly, unidentified Pentagon officials, claiming that Chowkar-Karez was "a fully legitimate target" because it was a nest of Taliban and al-Qaeda sympathizers, eventually told CNN that "the people there are dead because we wanted them dead."
On Oct. 23, the UN said a US bomb demolished a military hospital in Herat. UN personnel confirm that civilians were often treated at that hospital. The Taliban claimed 100 killed, but no other source verified casualties.
On the same day, a cluster bomb exploded and released its bomblets in the village of Shaker Qala, near Herat. The bomblets didn't explode; instead, they spread out over an area the size of a football field, trapping villagers inside their homes. 8 people died from the initial explosion and 1 man died when he tried to pick up one of the bright, yellow bomblets, which looked like a soft-drink can. UN personnel laid sandbags around the visible bomblets, but after realizing that some of them were half-buried in the ground and difficult to see, they were forced to evacuate the entire village.
Qatar's Al-Jazeera television (much maligned here in the US for showing footage of bin Laden's speeches, but widely hailed as the freest and most comprehensive press outlet in the Middle East) reported that 93 civilians were killed by US bombs in the village of Chakor Kariz, 37 miles northeast of Kandahar, including 18 members of a single family that had fled to Chakor to escape the bombing in Kandahar. 40 people were wounded in the attack. Jazeera broadcast video footage of the dead bodies, taken by their correspondent in Kandahar. A few days later, BBC reporters visited the village and described "a scene of total destruction...A detailed examination of the scene revealed no evidence that the village might have been used by Taleban fighters or any other reason for it to have been targeted."[BBC, 11/1/01.]
On Oct. 24, the foreign minister of the Northern Alliance warned the US government to work harder to avoid civilian casualties, particularly in and around Kandahar and Jalalabad.
On Oct. 25, a US bomb exploded near a mosque in the Ishaq Suleiman district of Herat during evening prayers; at least 20 civilians were killed.
A doctor at the Sandeman Provincial Hospital in Quetta, Pakistan, reported that between 60 and 70 wounded Afghan civilians were arriving every day for treatment and "there are many other hospitals in this community facing the same problem." A doctor at Al Hajeri Al Khidmat Hospital reported that most of the wounded were women and children.
Three houses in the village of Wazir Abad, 3 miles west of the Kabul airport, were flattened by a US bomb, killing 2 girls, ages 6 and 11.
US planes again mistakenly bombed the Red Cross compound in Kabul, dropping eight bombs in two separate bombing runs, and destroying four warehouses. All the buildings had large, red crosses painted on the roofs and the Red Cross had given their coordinates to the US military twice--once at the beginning of the war and again after two of the buildings were bombed on Oct. 16. Food and supplies that could have fed 55,000 people this winter were destroyed.
On Oct 26, the UN and several NGOs condemned the use of cluster bombs in Afghanistan. "The unexploded bomblets effectively turn into landmines, ready to detonate on contact ... In Kosovo, NATO cluster bombs were estimated to have killed or injured 200 people in the first 12 months after the bombing," said Richard Lloyd of Landmine Action.
On Oct. 27, US bombs fell on two civilian hamlets in Northern Alliance territory (Ghanikheil and Raqi) and one village in Taliban territory (Nikhahil), killing 12 people and injuring at least 10 others. (Ghanikheil is far behind the front lines, according to the Times of London.) This was the fifth time US planes had bombed Northern Alliance territory by mistake.
On Oct 28, a bomb flattened a house in the Qali Hotair neighborhood of Kabul, killing seven children as they were eating breakfast with their father. The blast also killed another two children in a neighboring house, one of them a 2-year-old. 3 more people died near the Macroyan housing complex. A bomb fell on a bus and killed 2 civilians attempting to flee Kabul with their family.
On Oct. 30, the US began broadcasting radio messages to the Afghan people warning them not to mistake the cluster bomblets for the food packets being dropped from US planes. (Both are the same color and size.) Unfortunately, almost no one in Afghanistan was hearing the broadcasts, according to BBC reporters.
On Oct. 31, a US bomb damaged a Red Crescent hospital in Kandahar, killing 15 people and severely injuring 25, including hospital staff and patients. Two ambulances were destroyed in the attack. Red Crescent flags were flying outside the hospital and stretchers were stacked against one outside wall.
Cluster bombs exploded in Jabraheel, littering unexploded bomblets over this suburb of Herat. At least one person died after picking up a bomblet. The Los Angeles Times reported that US planes have begun carpet bombing all over the countryside, although the Pentagon had dubbed it "area bombing," to avoid negative connotations.
On Nov. 1, the Taliban claimed that US planes bombed the Kajaki hydro-electric power station 55 miles northwest of Kandahar, eliminating electricity supplies for the cities of Kandahar and Lashkargah; no independent confirmation was available. If true, tens of thousands of people who live downstream from the power station could be killed in the event of a rupture at the dam, which contains 2.7 billion cubic meters of water.
In the past month of bombing, the largest aid agencies in the world--including the UN's World Food Program, Oxfam, the Red Cross, the Red Crescent Society, and Care USA--have begged the US to halt or scale back the bombing so that they can deliver food to warehouses inside Afghanistan. As many as seven million people will need food aid this winter. With only another 2-3 weeks before the snows set in, there's currently enough food in Afghan warehouses to feed less than half a million people.


DURHAM, NEW HAMPSHIRE - December 10 - More than 3,500 civilians have been killed in Afghanistan by U.S. bombs, according to a study to be released December 10 by Marc W. Herold, Professor of Economics, International Relations, and Women's Studies at the University of New Hampshire. Professor Herold will announce his findings on Monday, December 10 in a discussion with award-winning journalist, Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! in Exile's War and Peace Report (http://www.democracynow.org).
Professor Herold has been gathering data on civilian casualties since October 7 by culling information from news agencies, major newspapers, and first-hand accounts. "I decided to do the study because I suspected that the modern weaponrywas not what it was advertised to be. I was concerned that there would be significant civilian casualties caused by the bombing, and I was able to find some mention of casualties in the foreign press but almost nothing in the U.S. press," said Herold.
Herold's data will be available at http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mwherold/.
For each day since October 7, when the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan began, he lists the number of casualties, location, type of weapon used, and source(s) of information. Following are several examples from his daily calculations:
·On October 11, two U.S. jets bombed the mountain village of Karam, comprised of 60 mud houses, during dinner and evening prayer time, killing 100-160 people. Sources: DAWN, (English language Pakistani daily newspaper), the Guardian of London, the Independent, International Herald Tribune, the Scotsman, the Observer, and the BBC News.
·On October 13, in the early morning, an F-18 dropped 2,000 lb. JDAM bombs on the Qila Meer Abas neighborhood, 2 kms. South of the Kabul airport, killing four people. Sources: Afghan Islamic Press, Los Angeles Times, Frontier Post, Pakistan Observer, the Guardian of London, and the BBC News.
·On October 31, in a pre-dawn raid, an F-18 dropped a 2,000 lb. JDAM bomb on a Red Crescent clinic, killing 15 - 25 people. Sources: DAWN, the Times of London, the Independent, the Guardian, Reuters, Associated Press, and Agence France Presse.
Professor Herold has sought whenever possible to cross-corroborate accounts of civilian casualties. He relied upon British, Canadian, and Australian newspapers; Indian newspapers, especially The Times of India; three Pakistani daily newspapers; the Singapore News; Afghan Islamic Press; Agence France Press; Pakistan News Service; Reuters; BBC News Online; Al Jazeera; and a variety of other reputable sources, including the United Nations and other relief agencies.
The Pentagon has repeatedly denied reports of civilian casualties in Afghanistan, and most U.S. media outlets have qualified their reports of casualties with the statement "could not be independently confirmed." But Professor Herold has been able to confirm the number of casualties and has found that the number is climbing toward 4,000. "People have to know that there is a human cost to war, and that this is a war with thousands of casualties," said Herold. "These were poor people to begin with, and, on top of that, they had absolutely nothing to do with the events of September 11."

Advanced Flag Waving
On September 11th, while survivors were being treated near the World Trade Center, a nearby Starbuck's charged rescue workers $130 for bottled water. They later apologized. Tragedies and wars bring out the best and worst of human nature, from heroism down to cynical profiteering. Below that lies the U.S. House of Representatives, which passed a new milestone in porkbarrel politics.
On October 24th, the House narrowly passed the Republican sponsored "Economic Security and Recovery Act," aimed at pumping $100 billion into the economy, most of it directed to corporations and the rich. If signed into law, it means we'll be asking young men and women to sacrifice their lives, while inviting rich Americans to become even richer.
In all fairness, Republicans are supposed to provide for the wealthy. That's their job. Typically, pumping money into the hands of the rich comes with a host of economically respectable fig leaves. The rich invest and create jobs while the middle and under classes "waste" money on food, clothing and rent. Supporters of these arguments are at least able to keep a straight-face on the MacNeil Newshour. But the major tax break in this proposal pushes its supporters over to Saturday Night Live.
The naked centerpiece of the stimulus bill is the repeal of the corporate minimum tax, a gift of $25 billion. This tax minimum was originally designed to see that U.S. mult-nationals did not use their tax shelters to pay zero taxes. Back then, that was considered a national embarrassment. Arguing that such a tax is now unfair, the authors drew the obvious conclusion. Not only should it be removed from the books, but all payers of it should get refunds on taxes paid -- all the way back to 1986.
Remember the $300 tax rebate you received this year? All the rebates added together are approximately one-half of what Republicans are offering to 100 corporations. Taxpayers will be handing IBM $1.4 billion, Ford $1.0 billion, General Motors $832 million, not for any new investments in America but for having invested their money outside our borders or in tax shelters. The purest grade pork imaginable without a bridge or tank or American job to show for it.
But now comes the fun, flag waving part. How do you defend such handouts? Fortunately the House held a debate, so we can quote some of the finer rhetorical flourishes. First up to bat was Rep. John Linder (R-Ga), who pointed out on the House floor that we need this measure to ensure our economic security "in light of the tragic events of September 11, 2001." That's $1.4 billion for IBM, $1.0 billion for Ford Motors, $832 million for General Motors... as sort of a memorial to the victims, I presume.
Rep. Kevin Brady (R-Tx) rose to proclaim "We cannot stand by idly and let a terrorist topple our economy as they toppled the World Trade Center." Obvious conclusion: We need to give $671 million to General Electric, $608 million to Texas Utilities, $600 million to Daimler Chrysler...
Even more spirited was the response of Rep. James Traficant (R-Oh) who answered Democratic critics: "Let it go with this class warfare business. It hurts America. This is an important bill, as important as any we have dealt with that deals with terrorism. We are defeating terrorism." Defeating Bin Laden with cash handouts of $572 million to Chevron Texaco, $371 million to United Airlines... I assume he's ready to surrender now.
The high point of the debate came when the main sponsor of this bill, Rep. Bill Thomas (R-Ca), addressed the House. Rep. Thomas prefaced his remarks by saying "Sometimes we actually run into problems when we are dealing with plain English." How true. Then he asked, "Does anyone dispute that making sure the economy remains strong so that we can be a vigilant and free America is combating terrorism?" Sounds like $254 million to Enron...
Rep. Thomas also had an answer for the negativity critics directed toward corporations. We mustn't lose sight of the fact, he said, that "businesses are America's employers. They're the hardware store, the diner down the street, the gas station on the corner." Take a wild guess how much the corner diner will be receiving. Meanwhile, where was I? It's $241 million for Phillips Petroleum...
These payments are, according to the President, "part of our homeland defense" just as drilling the oil of Alaska's Artic Wildlife Refuge has become a matter of "national security." Is there anything in the Republican agenda that doesn't have the stars and stripes engraved on it? Are those six thousand lives and the heroism of countless Americans to be just cannon fodder for corporate enrichment?
The last time I looked, the American flag was not covered with company logos. Not yet. Your mission is to help take it out of the picayune little hands of politicians who are openly fronting for the corporate new world order. Good luck.

[hardcore capitalist]

.........(pondering).....not speechless, but still pondering.......

[rebel with a cause]

Whats that HC? Are you stunned with disbelief?

The truth burns doesn't it?

[Imperial Power]

Rebel so how is you believe any US soldier would purposely bomb a Red Cross tent. Is it because they're American? Seems like one sided leftest anti-American propaganda. The person that wrote the article understands nothing of war. I especially like how he demands up to date bombing be broadcast. That's very smart. Another thing he "forgets" is the Taliban moving civilians around like human shields. They place them in military targets and then take pictures of the dead showing how America is targeting civilians. It's simple dirty guerilla tactics and certainly doesn't go to show the Taliban's love for its people.

[rebel with a cause]

It wasn't a tent, it was an actual building, you know, buildings?, like consisting of a roof, walls, founation, plumbing and what not. I don't recall him making demands of up to date bombing be broadcasted. This information was gathered from numerous independent media sources which all verified these events, and this was compiled by an American (whos party affiliation is actually Republican), just like you & me, the difference being, I'm a patriot, he's a patriot, and you're meerly a sheep.

[peaccenicked]

Imperial power read and weep
Vietnam War
Crimes Hearings
Permission granted to link this site to your Webpage
http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwch1.htm



DELLUMS COMMITTEE HEARINGS ON WAR CRIMES IN VIETNAM
April 25, 1971
Caucus Room, Cannon House Office Bdlg

Special thanks to Peter Ungar for this data contribution

DELLUMS: The hearings will be in order.

I am Congressman Ron Dellums. This is the 1st day of our mornings of hearings that will be conducted in this room between the hours of 9:30 and 12:30. This is the 1st open set of hearings on war atrocities in Indochina.

We introduced back on 3-1 of this year House Joint Resolution [HJR] 409, cosponsored by 21, fellow Congressmen.

We asked for action by the Rules Committee on this resolution and none was forthcoming. All of us are very interested in full, official hearings into the potential of war atrocities in Indochina, but receiving no action from the RULES COMMITTEE or the leadership of the Congress, we proceeded to try to plan as completely and capably as we could with these ad hoc hearings.

I would like to introduce on my far left Congressman Reuss, who has joined us this morning, Congressman Riegle from Michigan, Congressman Don Edwards from California, Congressman Badillo from New York, Congressman Frank Ryan of New York; to my immediate right Cngwmn Bella Abzug of New York, Congressman Parren Mitchell from Baltimore, Congressman John Conyers from Michigan, Congressman Seiberling from Ohio.

Are there Congressmen who have any opening statements that they would like to make this morning? Congressman Mitchell.

MITCHELL: We have begun hearings today to investigate the military policy used in Vietnam which appears to us to foster war crimes. We are concerned with such schemes as free-fire zones, search and destroy missions, mass resettlement of peasantry and the so-called "bodycount mania." Since the Dept of Defense [DOD] acknowledges the use of these tactics, we wish to illustrate graphically what happens when such tactics are translated into action. Vietnam has been called the ultimate model war of attrition where civilians die by the score for every combat soldier killed. Our interest here is in the suspect military policy, not in uncovering war tames, but it is likely that we shall hear testimony as repugnant to the nat'l conscience as My Lai.

We do not do so to demean the military or to undermine the nat'l confidence, but we must bring the nature of the Vietnam war home to the American people, for it is they in the final analysis who must reject and end it.

The men who testify before us, and I know some of them personally, display great courage, and we commend them. In order to speak about these atrocities they have discarded careers and jeopardized their future security. but they speak out of a deep moral conviction that demands respect.

This nation will be shocked by what it hears, but America will be better for having heard it. We call upon our fellow Congressman to attend these sessions and to learn from what is said here. The people are war-weary and the Congress must assert its constitutional prerogative to end the longest war in history.

This Congress has had chance after chance to end the war, and we have not done it. Hopefully these hearings in combination with all the other pressures that can be exerted, hopefully, we will then force the Congress to act and to cause it to end this bloody and immoral war in which we have been so long engaged. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CONYERS: The statement that I would have made has been ably made by my by my colleague from Maryland. So I will only make 2 points. 1st of all, I want to emphasize that this Congress has displayed a complete lack of moral responsibility and legislative integrity in not having the courage to openly look at the actions that we are forced to do as an ad hoc committee through the failure of anyone to act on the Joint Resolution 409 or to have hearings under 1 of the several committees that this could have been done under the rules of the House. 2dly, Mr Chairman, I want to personally commend you as a freshman member of this body for under taking this very, very important responsibilities.

DELLUMS: Thank you. Cngwmn Mink from Hawaii, 2d from my far right, has just joined us, and we welcome you. Congressman Seiberling.

SEIBERLING: Yes. Today we are beginning 4-day hearings of ad hoc public hearings on policy and command responsibility for war atrocities in Vietnam. I think this forum is necessary because today, despite requests by a number of members of Congress, including myself, there have been no official hearings.

The central question to which this series of hearings must address itself is simply stated by Telford Taylor, chief counsel for the prosecution at the Nuremburg Trials, in his book, "Nuremburg and Vietnam-An American Tragedy", and I would like to read a key paragraph of that book. "The 1956 Army Manual provides explicitly that a military commander is responsible not only for the criminal acts in pursuance of his orders but is also responsible if he has actual knowledge or should have knowledge that troops or other persons subject to his control are about to commit or have committed a war crime and he fails to take the necessary and reasonable steps to insure compliance with the law of war or to punish violations thereof." The purpose of these hearings is not to discredit our military services, but 1st to determine whether there were widespread violations of law by the American military with respect to the treatment of civilians and POWs and, if so, to pinpoint responsibility for such violation.

I might say parenthetically that 1 of the chief reasons so many Americans are disturbed by the decision of Lieutenant [LT] Calley's case was that it appeared that after all the terrible events and possible crimes and atrocities in Vietnam that 1 single LT was being made criminally responsible for the entire armed services and indeed for the entire country. Obviously it is vital to bring justice not to just minor officials but those responsible at whatever level of command it may be.

Neither the military services nor the nation should have to face the world under a cloud of suspicion. The best way to prevent this is to get the facts and to take what ever action is necessary to correct the deficiencies which may have led to such violations.

1 of the most shocking and depressing aspects of the disclosures of the German atrocities after World War II was the fact that so few citizens in that great nation raised their voices in protest or even took pains to learn the truth. This is understandable in a people living under the grip of a totalitarian regime; it is unthinkable in a human and civilized democracy. We must know the truth before we can deal effectively with our nations problems.

If I could borrow a single biblical phrase to cover our nation's needs in this difficult time, it would be, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

DELLUMS: This morning we will look at policy and command responsibility, and we have with us 5 West Point graduates, 4 captains and a major. We also have Capt O'mera, who is not a West Point grad, who will be a corroborating witness with 1 of our capt's, Capt Bartek. Our 1st witness this morning will be Capt Fred Laughlin.

Statement of Fred Laughlin, Capt, US Army, West Point, Class of 1965, Bethesda, MD LAUGHLIN: I graduated in 1965, spent 5 years in the service, 2 1/2 years in infantry, 1 year in Vietnam as a company commander and as a platoon leader.

I was a 1st LT.

I would like my testimony to center more on the distortions of war and my examples to be more illustrative than shocking. I would like to give 3 examples and hope that I can--I, we can--draw something from it. When I arrived in Vietnam in 1966, in October, I was sent to a jungle warfare school in Lai Khe. Lai Khe is on the northeastern tip of the eastern triangle. I spent a week in the jungle warfare school being taught the way it really was in Vietnam by non-commissioned officers [NCO's], some of whom had been in battle themselves. At the time the BODY COUNT idea pretty will hit the military in Vietnam, and we were taught at the jungle school, that it is very important to get BC. There is a big difference between BODY COUNT and so-called killed in action [KIA].

It is very important to verify some member of the body, particularly the ears.

The ears seemed to be the favorite in order to report validly a BC. This was not promulgated officially. It could not be, of course. but this was taught in the school and it was clear to a what the sergeant [Sgt] was talking about. and these people were blank pages when they came to Vietnam, They had no idea what was coming off. I did not. I was supposed to be educated. I did not know. As far as I knew, he was giving me the straight story. The 2d example that I would like to give of the distortions in Vietnam occurred during my 2d month in Vietnam as a platoon leader. VC had reportedly run into a village, a village not unlike my Lai. We surrounded the village with our platoon and began to seal it off in the typical manner. Civilians were pouring out of the village at the time. It was late in the evening. All of a sudden, with no warning, the platoon opened up on the civilians. It was their job to keep the civilians in, and God knows where they got the order.

I was in charge, completely. By the time I could get the firing stopped, which seemed like an hour--it was probably 30 seconds--1 man was shot in the back, an old Vietnamese. We picked the man up and took him back to base camp, which was not far from civilization. It was about a 2 minutes' helicopter ride from Du Lai. The man was clearly bleeding internally and didn't have long to go. I wasn't a doctor, but that was pretty clear. I reported this to my company command, said that we needed immediate evacuation, and there was none forthcoming. The man died about 5 the next morning.

The 3d example I would like to give has to do with the distortions of a different type. It occurred late in my Vietnam tour when I was company commander, just south of the Cambodian border, about 25 miles north of Tay Ninh. It was called the battle of Prec Loc. the battle of Prec Loc is probably the only claim to fame that the 2d Battalion , 2d Infantry, had at the time, and, of course, these are things that people like to cherish: battles.

The battle of Prec Loc occurred late in the summer of 1967. The perimeter that we had, and it was 2 companies, was attacked by supposedly a regmt of enemy troops. The battle waged throughout the thing. The brigade [Bgd] commander was over my head, and over his head was a helicopter, over his head was the asst division [div] commander, the div commander was over his head and God knows who was over his head, and it was really terrific. It was just the thing you want when you are in battle.

During the night in radio conversation after the battle lulled, there was a wager made by 1 of the company commanders, the A Company commander to the C Company commander, as to who would find the most bodies out in front of their positions, a case of beer, as a matter of fact. The next morning they went out to police up the bodies. The A Company commander had 8 and the C Company commander had 5, for a total of 13, as I recall. The asst div commander landed his helicopter, surveyed the situation. It was clear to him there were 13 bodies in front of the position. He proclaimed by some strange way that I will never be able to figure out that there were 197 bodies, and that is what was printed in the paper the next day.

Now, the distortions that I described here, and I think it is pretty clear what they are, run across the board, and are a result of some type of immoral template that seems to be superimposed on the whole world in Vietnam--the whole horror, aberration, aspect, concept. These same distortions caused the general, 1 of the members of my platoon, and a Sgt at the general school, the same distortions that seem to be causing Americans to shrug now, and perhaps this is the greatest price for America.

The way I feel about it is the term "war crimes" is a bit of a misnomer itself, in that war seems to be a repudiation of all laws except those that are sanctioned by bodies. I think that America needs to undergo a bout with reality, which I hope you people can do during these hearings, for in the long run America is the one, not the people who fought in Vietnam, not the Calley's, not the Westmorelands, but America is the 1 in the long run who bas to carry this stigma. Thank you for your time. If you have any questions, I would be glad to answer them.

DELLUMS: Thank you, Capt Laughlin. I appreciate your testimony. I have 1 question I would like to ask. From where do you understand the policies that you have enumerated to come?

LAUGHLIN: I don't know. They seem to permeate throughout Vietnam, and I could not associate them with any particular source. I think they seem to be a major component of war. You are going to have these policies if you are going to have war.

[b] here is an update on what the US has
learned from this
http://www.geocities.com/IslamAwareness/Am...ican/sorry.html (http://www.geocities.com/IslamAwareness/American/sorry.html)

(Edited by peaccenicked at 3:26 pm on Feb. 3, 2002)

[Moskitto]

Why do people asume that if you don't like US military action you support what they're fighting against?

[Imperial Power]

Peace in Vietnam bad things happened. But that article is 31 years old. In Vietnam the enemy was unknown America didn't have its heart in the war and it's a different story when your defending your homeland as opposed to being sent over to stop the communists. War like that does something to men. The viet cong would be shooting at them one second and laying land mines then the next they would look like harmless rice farmers. Not knowing who the enemy was led to civilian deaths. But there coudl have been many many more. If some in the Pentagon had there way 24 hour carpet bombing would have destroyed the communists and everyone else in north vietnam. But that has little to do with now.

Rebel- It doesn't matter if it was a tent, building, bridge, or a missle silo. They move civilians around as human shields to use as propaganda later.

[Nateddi]

Quote: from hardcore capitalist on 5:51 am on Feb. 2, 2002
Look, innocent lives is part of war, America did absolutely everything possible to avoid civilian casualties and other damage to the country that so desperately needed our help to escape from the wrath of the Taliban.


If I was Bush, after Sept. 11, I would

1) Find out who did this
2) Find them and punish them*
3) Focus on intelligence and security instead of trying to irraticate all terrorism (which is impossible).

*Go after them with prescision. No aircraft except on completely unpopulated areas. Ground troops into areas where innocent people may be living. This is much better, as well as cheaper than bulldozing (great word rebel).

come on cappies, do you honestly expect that the rest of the "war on terrorism" will be perfect? Yea, we go in, quickly beat up their government, and put in new pesky english speaking leaders and broadcast happiness to the US media.

(Edited by Nateddi at 9:25 pm on Feb. 3, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 7:15 am on Feb. 3, 2002
Rebel so how is you believe any US soldier would purposely bomb a Red Cross tent.
US sodiers atrocities vietnam but good boys now
Oh GROW UP

[hardcore capitalist]

To you tell you the truth rebel, I am somewhat disturbed by the contents of your post, but nevertheless I maintain a strong sense of trust in the US government and our country. I know of no other place with as much freedom and liberties that we enjoy here, I know of no other place with a greater tolerance for people or a commitment to justice,

"we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness......"

many soldiers died in the revolution for the red, white, and blue so that we could have freedom of speech, of the press, assembly, and religion, so that we could have a right to a fair trial, and as an American I am proud of that, and so should you, salute old glory, start being a patriot instead of ungrateful.

[MJM]

Quote: from hardcore capitalist on 6:30 pm on Feb. 4, 2002
To you tell you the truth rebel, I am somewhat disturbed by the contents of your post, but nevertheless I maintain a strong sense of trust in the US government and our country. I know of no other place with as much freedom and liberties that we enjoy here, I know of no other place with a greater tolerance for people or a commitment to justice,

"we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness......"

many soldiers died in the revolution for the red, white, and blue so that we could have freedom of speech, of the press, assembly, and religion, so that we could have a right to a fair trial, and as an American I am proud of that, and so should you, salute old glory, start being a patriot instead of ungrateful.

The term brain washed springs to mind after reading this.
You know of no other place?
How many other places have you been to?
Tolerance of others LOL come on dude.
Justice, man you're killin me down here LMAO

(Edited by MJM at 6:58 pm on Feb. 4, 2002)

[Moskitto]

Switzerland is one hell of a lot more democratic than America. In Switzerland, The people are the legislature. The parliament can only propose laws, it can't ratify them, that's for the people to do.

And no, I'm not saluting for America, I don't have citizenship, so why should I have to?

[Fires of History]

Great thread! This is all I have to say:

"America is the only country in history to go from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between."
-Oscar Wilde

Power to the People,
Trance

[rebel with a cause]

"Your ignorance is bliss, it wipes the smile of my face."
- RATM

That's exactly what I'm trying to get across to you capi!

I love this fuckin country so much that I will do it the greatest service of dissenting, that's right, dissenting!

(note to my fellow socialists, anarchists, communists, etc. I am well aware of America's history during the revolution, and onward, which at some times, ok.. a majority of the time, wasn't so pretty, like with the removal of the Natives, believe me thats a huge issue to me beacause the genocide still continues today, I simply want to make a statement to HC, so I just wanna request that no body posts somethin like "what about the slavery, or the japanese-internment camps, or segragation, etc."......I know the U$ commited countless crimes, I'm not ignorant, so just chill ;) )

When our forefathers declared independence from Britain, that was an act of rebellion, though when we won, the rights that were promised weren't given to everyone, the ideals were still there.

Thomas Jefferson, one of the most intelligent men to walk the face of this earth had these following words to say:
"Information is the currency of Democracy."

"In matters of style, swim with the current, in matters of principle, stand like a rock"

"If all the people knew all the facts, they would never make a mistake."

"It is better for one hundred guilty men to go free than one innocent man to go to jail"

"It is wrong to take a man's money and use it to promote ideas he does not agree with"

"It's better to debate an issue without settling it, than to settle an issue without debate."

"The end of democracy, and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending institutions and moneyed incorporations."

"We must crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to bid defiance to the laws of our country."

"The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder."

"The patronage of public office should no longer be confided to one who uses it for active opposition to the National Will"

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice will not sleep forever."

“Experience declares that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can think of no milder term to apply to…the general prey of the rich on the poor.”

"our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost."

"nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle."

"What a stupendous, what an incomprehensible machine is man! Who can endure toil, famine, stripes, imprisonment & death itself in vindication of his own liberty, and the next moment . . . inflict on his fellow men a bondage, one hour of which is fraught with more misery than ages of that which he rose in rebellion to oppose."

"Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights."

“A society that will trade a little freedom for a little order, will lose both, and deserve neither.”

I love this country because of its ideals of "liberty and justice for all", not for some, but for ALL!

"we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness......"

it didnt say some men, it said all men! (that includes ladies too ;) )

and instead of just memorizing that part like they have you do in school, if you read a little further you'll also notice it says:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to ALTER or to ABOLISH it, and to INSTITUTE a NEW Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

Did you comprehend that? It is not only our privelage, but our obligation to address the government when their acts are unjust.

I don't see how we can preach everywhere else to the world to follow our ideals and standards, when our very government neglects them knowingly and willingly right here at home!

The red white and blue you refer to stands for freedom, liberty, and justice!

However, our government has made a mockery of it, they're the ones that have desecrated it, they only increase a flag-burner's reason to burn it. Because it no longer stands for that!

I was once like you, a "walking through life, everything is just great, my country is moral, just, and great in everyway, ignorant American."

It started while I was listenin to RATM, I actually listened to the words one day, and my first reaction was ..... "what the fuck, who does this asshole think he is dissing my country? saying this fuckin commie bullshit?
what the hell is he talkin about?"

but I investigated the lyrics, found out what they mean, and I was disgusted with my country.

I began analyizing the history I was taught in school, and other sources dealing with the same topic, I had to ask myself honestly, who was wrong? more often then not, it was us.

I was mentally-torn for about 5 months, I couldn't believe that this country, MY COUNTRY, could be capable and guilty of countless atrocities, the system tried to enslave me in ignorance, failed, I was now "enlightened", and was capable of using the system against them, because you see, this country was founded on rebellion, diobedience and dissenting!

Our flag is the banner of freedom seekers, risk takers, democracy builders, rebels, pioneers, mavericks, barn raisers, and hell-raisers-- a liberty-loving people who are naturally suspicious of authority and able to detect that the real threat to our land of the free comes not from afar, but from within.

Our flag is made of strong democratic cloth, artfully designed and painstakingly stitched together over 225 years -- liberty by individual liberty, people's movement by people's movement. Our flag embodies a democratic continuum that connects us today to the pamphleteers and Sons of Liberty, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, the abolitionists and the suffragists, Sojourner Truth and Frederick Douglass, the populists and Wobblies, Mother Jones and Joe Hill, Martin Luther King Jr. and Cesar Chavez.

Protest is patriotism!

Our government's actions both prior to and after 9-11, are so horrific, disturbing, inhumane, and down right terrible! Our leaders just stand behind a podium and spit nothing but flase truths, they've got the media whipped into submission even more because the CIA in accordance with the top 10 media conglamorates, control everything you hear and don't hear.

The cruelest lies are often told in silence.

It is a tribute to the American people that our leaders perceived that they had to lie to us, it is not a tribute to us that we were so easily misled. ~ Daniel Ellsberg

I will not stand idly by as these whores in DC take away our rights! I will not rest until I have done everything within my phyisical power to try and make a difference in this world! Why? Because I bleed red, white, and blue! I am the TRUE American!

Here are some things to think about capi.....

"Being an activist means being aware of what's happening around you as well as being in touch with your feelings about it -- your rage, your sadness, your excitement, your curiosity, your feeling of helplessness, and your refusal to surrender. Being an activist means owning your desire." - Paula Allen

"One of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for Independence." - Charles A. Beard

"Sometimes, when asked the what-do-you-do question, it occurs to me to say that I work for the government. I have a government job, essential to national security. I AM A CITIZEN. Like the Supreme Court judges, my job is for life, and the well-being of my country depends on me. It seems fair to think that I should be held accountable for my record in the same way I expect accountability from those who seek elected office. I would like to be able to say that I can stand on my record and am proud of it." - Robert Fulghum

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair. - H.L. Mencken

Rebellion is only an occasional reaction to suffering in human history; we have infinitely more instances of submission to authority than we have examples of revolt. What we should be most concerned about is not some natural tendency toward violent uprising, but rather the inclination of people faced with an overwhelming environment of injustice to submit to it. Historically, the most terrible things—war, genocide, and slavery—have resulted not from disobedience, but from obedience. - Howard Zinn

Now here are some things to really consider before you have to ask yourself that final question after you read the info i sent to you via email.......

"When it shall be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy, neither ignorance or distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars, the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive . . . When these things can be said, then may that country boast its constitution and its government." - The Rights of Man (1791) - Thomas Paine

Former Senator J. William Fulbright
To criticize one's country is to do it a service and pay it a compliment. It is a service because it may spur the country to do better than it is doing; it is a compliment because it evidences a belief that a country can do better than it is doing. In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith. Like medicine, the test of its value is not in its taste but its effect, not how it makes people feel in the moment but how it makes them feel in the long run. Criticism, in short, is more than a right; it is an act of patriotism, a higher form of patriotism, I believe, than the familiar rituals of national adulation.


Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else. -- Theodore Roosevelt

Mark Twain
My kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its officeholders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; its institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags - that is a loyalty of unreason…

Harry Belefonte
"How can you sit so comfortably with the indifference that you're evidencing with this tragedy when you could, in fact, take some part of that tragedy and fix it and make a difference? Not all of it. Don't sit there and be overwhelmed by the enormity of the problem. Just pick out that portion which is yours, and kick butt. Go out there and make a difference. Change it. Change it. CHANGE IT."

Now, hardcore capi, are you an American like me....
or an Ameri**** like 99% of the rest of the ignorant, apathetic, prejudice, hypocritical, fuckin country.
You believe in freedom, liberty, and justice?

PROVE IT.

( FYI fellow comrades, i sent HC numerous articles regarding corporate globalization, the U$A's various malicious roles and actions thru-out the world, ie. School of the Americas, U$A terrorism, Iraqi sanctions, etc., I also informed on who Che was and what anarchy & socialism is all about. It's enough pure truth and "de-ignorizing" material to make his head spin and have him vomit in disgust at his lack of knowledge.)









(Edited by rebel with a cause at 9:16 pm on Feb. 6, 2002)

[hardcore capitalist]

OMG! I dunno what to say. I'm.....frustrated, sad, ashamed, enraged, so many emotions are going thru my head. I can't believe I was so blind. Rebel, I'm an American, freedom, justice, and liberty, are the ideals I love, so being loyal to my country would be to defend those, even if it means dissenting against the government. I just need your help, like I said, i'm just stuplified right now, I'm new at this, I don't know what it's like to be informed,

Other members of the community, I hope you can accept me, I know I was ignorant and totally clueless before, I'm sorry.

Malte, ban this past of mine from the community.
I will re-register as "capi turned commie".

[rebel with a cause]

I will be more than glad to take you under my wing, especially since I know exactly what you're going thru mentally right now, I felt the same way, "capi turrned commie", I like the sound of that.

Brothers and sisters, let us welcome our newest comrade. Thats 1 more commie in the world and 1 less capi. ;)

The path you have chosen will not be easy, but .....
"you have to be the change you want to see in the world." - Gandhi

[capi turned commie]

Thanks rebel.

[ArgueEverything]

heiliger kuh!!!!

[Imperial Power]

Hardcore is either the weakest minded person on the board or this is a propaganda stunt.

[PunkRawker677]

Welcome Hardcore. I wish more people would be able to come to the realization you have just come to. I myself walked around thinking this country was perfect, but again, i was awakened after reading different literature and listning to some new music. It changed me, and i may not be the worlds most renowned revolutionary, but i care, and ill keep trying to spread the ideal around and hope to open people's eyes in the future. Congratz on the elightment!

Punk-

[I Will Deny You]

Heh, hardcore capitalist is full of shit.

Whatever happened to HardcoreCommie?

[Forever capitalism]

LOL
i just read this, though belatedly, this is the most ridiculous topic ever!!!!!!!!! The acting by hardcore capitalist is magnificent, the communists gain another member congratulations!!!!!!! So without reading any theory or knowning anything about communist hardcore capitalist has just turned into a communist because a huge quantity of propaganda was posted? Well at least he is following everyone else who turned communist after they too were successfully brainwashed. Congratulations hardcore capitalist you are a true communist!

[queen of diamonds]

agreed, FC...hardcore, the faults of america are absolutely no reason to turn communist....the faults of american are hardly the faults of the capitalist system...for all the time you spent telling us how great the US was before, and for all that your old name was 'hardcore capitalist', when was the last time you looked at what capitalism is? Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of inalienable individual rights.....ie., not what the US is following.....i'm not at all disagreeing with anyone who says the US was at fault, just anyone who wants to call it capitalist....based on the principle of inalienable individual rights? you think that's what the US government holds up? give me a break!!! sure, you have the right to vote, which is promptly negated by the lack of any real choices, since all the candidates seem to stand for the same things....you have the right to opinion, thought and free speech, which is nuetralised by the government's attempts to keep the public in the darkness of ignorance...at least as far as they can keep them thinking they're right....
open your eyes, mate, all you've done is moved from blindly following one group of people to blindly following another!
capitalism is not equal to american!!! recognising the wrongs of the US is great, but turning communist because of that is just stupid......although maybe from your earlier remarks i shouldn't be surprised
unless IP's right and this is a propaganda stunt....in which case, it's completely ineffective and totally useless
at least think up something that....you know, vaguely looks like it might someday be considered something resembling convincing!!!!

[MindCrime]

So, when a leftist moves to the right...

"Its the benefits of a free market system, impossible to resist!"

But when a Cappie goes Commie....

"Its all a conspiracy by the left! Conspiracy! Its propaganda! Publicity stunt!!!"

I dont care if it was a stunt or not, it suceeded in showing how stubborn and beligerent these cappies really are.

[peaccenicked]

Quote: the faults of america are hardly the faults of the capitalist system
The dominant mode of production in the US is capitalism
and its expansive form imperialism dominates the world.
One of the major flaws of america is 'ethical'
imperialism.In 1996,
Madeleine Albright told CBS that containing Iraq was worth the death of 500,000 Iraqi children.
Queen of pigeon shit how many more faults do you want to hear about?

[queen of diamonds]

okay, exactly which part of that led you to believe i think america is anything vaguely resembling fair or good?
i'm saying, although it may (althought it isn't completely) a capitalist economy, we're not talking about it's economy here, and in the political sense of the word capitalism, america isn't it!
i'm not saying america's perfect, far from it, but realising america's faults is hardly any reason to turn communist...
word of advice....next time, try figuring out what someone's talking about before trying to refute it. it generally works better in a debate.....

[loz]

do any of u actually realise what you are implying? in being swept up in communism or capitalism or whatever you follow, have you forgotten everything else? sure this discussion is supposed to be about political matters but is it really necessary to be so obsessive? maybe some of you need to take a few steps back and look at the bigger picture...

[Imperial Power]

This is very much the big picture

[Forever capitalism]

loz i question why you are here

[MindCrime]

Are you a member of the Apathy Party or are you a Nihilist, loz?

If you came here to learn about comrade Che, let me give you a few words:

"We cannot be sure of having something to live for unless we are willing to die for it." ~Che Guevara

Be true to your ideals, friend, whatever you decide they may be.

[peaccenicked]

"We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."
— Adolf Hitler
capitalist
supported by American capitalists
such as Prescott Bush,
grandfather of George W. Bush


Does that sound familiar.

[Imperial Power]

Yet again peace you have seen through our capitalist attempt to restore the Reich. Unfortunatly now you will have to be eliminated.

[MindCrime]

Unfortunatly IPs attempt at humor hits far to close to home. Nazism never died the death it should have after World War II.

After WW2, when America began to get paranoid about the Soviets mounting power, they enlisted the head of the German intellegence organization (Gerring was his name I believe) to help him spy on the Soviets in return for amnesty and escape to Brazil. Instead of sending him to the Nuremburg Trials, like this war criminal deserved, he was given a comfortable position in the newest superpower! He was Americas source on all things Soviet, an ex-Nazi in whose favor it was to keep himself useful to the US (by keeping the Soviets looking scary?). In addition to this, he gave training in subversive activities, tourture techniques, and insurgence to the CIA, FBI and NSA.

The United States also took many Nazi scientists home as well. Among them the creator of the V2 rocket system, Schroder von Braun (spelling may be off) who was famous for saying "Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down, it's not my department." He was given and estate in Florida and, with his fellow Nazis, developed the Atomic Bomb, which killed over 200,000 innocent civilians! 200,000! America cries when less than 5,000 die. Look what horrors you have unleashed yourself. The Nazi made atomic bombings are the greatest act of terrorism in the history of humanity, and it was perpetrated by the United States.

Whats more, the Western Capitalistic States allowed fascism to remain reletivly intact in Europe. When the Soviets moved in, they removed every remenance of the fascist state in their area of control. The economy suffered, but there were no right wing racists in power. Unfortunatly, the West needed the fascists and their economies to help fight the Communists. They didnt want to hurt their profits, so fascist judges, governors, and military leaders remained in place.

The CIA sponcered Operation Gladio in Italy to overthrow the government with the help of the mafia and the remaining fascists if the communist party was elected to power. Do you really stand for democracy? Such projects also took place in Greece, France, Belgum, Sweden, Denmark, and numerous other countries. In addition to that, they supported the Fascist dictatorship of Ferdinan Marcos in spain, which lasted up until 1975.

Today, America has continued to sponser clandestine operations to prop up dictatorships and overthrow governments around the world. Most of our enemies of today (bin Laden, Hussein, the Shah of Iran) were all sponsered by right wing reactionary presidents like Regan and Bush sr.

America helped Nazis escape justice at the Nuremburg Trials. The used their scientists to develop the most horrifying weapon in military history, and used it twice. They circumvented democratic governments and set up dictatorships.

I ask you this then, how can a nation that uses Nazi intellegence, tourture techniques, technology, and terrorism, be any diffrent? I look at the patriotic American of today, waving his flag and screaming for Arab blood. Such was the case of the Nazis who sought to kill the Jews. Jingoism reaps the same rewards everytime... But no! America isnt like the Nazis! We dont have a genocide going on! Besides, were killing Arabs with bombs, not Jews with ovens.... Is it ok if their skin is darker? Is racism ok if you dont discriminate at home?

How can you possible have support for a counrty that lets Nazis escape justice and commits such horrible acts against hummanity? How can you put a fucking price on human life? Answer me THAT!

Call this propaganda? Theyre all facts, simple and true. Its a horrible history of America, filled with bigotry, genocide, and eliteism. This is far worse that anything Stalin could have ever done. The Nazis themselves were only slightly worse. I hope this post got your blood boiling, I hope there's still somce comapssion in this world for victems.

Answer me, then, how a country can commit these acts and still stand for justice and equality. The Nazis may have lost, but unfortunatly their ideals havent. Im mad. I leave you then, with a final quote:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you."
~Nietzche

[La Resistance]

Quote: from hardcore capitalist on 12:41 am on Feb. 1, 2002
congratulations reagan lives, peaccenicked has no point, hes just another dumb socialist, and supermodel, we don't need a change in our foreign policy, America will always continue to prosper, we're the biggest baddest country around, that's why we're the best, we help 3rd world countries with humanitarian aid, and all the other countries look up to us.

GO USA!!!!!


hmm, I doubt you have travelled outside your fortress(USA) boy! But what do you care?

Thinking outside the box(fortress) is just not your thing, huh? Your fortress is built on slavery of 3rd world countries (and you fail to raise them to your own standard, and throw petty change at them to make you look good).

By slavery of the third world, I mean, making the chinese eat, drink, and shit opium for some time... I'm sure I could name some more "core versus periphery" examples, but I'm too lazy...
***

[Forever capitalism]

Peacenicked if you want to talk dictators let's talk about Pol Pot, a communist, and Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Castro, etc

[MindCrime]

Or all the warlords and tyrannts active in Third World now, supported with American money, weapons, and secret agents? Care to talk about them Cap?

[Forever capitalism]

yaeh warlords that came to significance after the inevitable collapse of communist/totalitarian regimes in the African continent leaving a power vacuum. I would like to see evidence where they are supported by American dollars if in 1993 America intervened in Somalia in order to eliminate the warlords and establish a democracy. Name me the warlords MineCrime and enlighten me. Better yet, refute the facts and without monotonous and inane essays as people have lives and dont' spend everyday, 24/7 reading pointless essays that trip over their own contradictions and propaganda.

[peaccenicked]

again foreverfascist tries to identify me with dictators
I oppose. he cant even read.
He is simply antidemocratic,
I dont go around saying to christians that they supported the Spanish inquisition.
If we want to talk about dictators lets start with him
good job he has no power but dictators always start without it.

[Forever capitalism]

...... please relate to the topic peacenicked

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 6:15 am on Feb. 20, 2002
Peacenicked if you want to talk dictators let's talk about Pol Pot, a communist, and Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Castro, etc


related enough fascist liar

[Forever capitalism]

Did you go through school peacenicked? You have no thought process except to belch out inane drivel or profanity. How i am a fascist when i adhere to a system that hold democratic elections and is the epitome of democracy? History has taught us that communist/totalitarian regimes inevitably turn out to be ruled by tyrants. Hence Cuba, China, USSR, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos. Tell me one place where that hasn't happened and is still not happening today, without using profanity or childish and immature insults.

[peaccenicked]

I am not a stalinist.
It is fascist to insist that I am something that I am not.
Thats what hitler did to the jews.

[Imperial Power]

Mind Crime

Do you realize that if the US did not take those Nazi scientists home the USSR would have? Vernor von Braun was a genius. It was not the Nazi's who developed the Atomic Bomb. You should know it was the Manhattan Project. Even though the Nazi ideal is evil is that a reason to throw away all the technology they had developed? I believe modern jet engines are based off the work of Meserschmitt which was the primary airplane manufacturer for the Luftwaffa. You say "do I call it propaganda" and I do. It is specifically manipulated to discredit the United States of America. I am sure with a little research such information could easily be found for the Soviet Union. Also I will need to look into your accusations of America helping Nazis escape. But you have to realize not every Nazi was evil. For instance most members of the Wermecht were just soldiers fighting for their country. They specifically commited no attrocities. It is Himmlers SS, speciafically the Death's Head Squadrons that ran the death camps and were in control of elimanating all jews from Europe who were the true monsters. I gurantee no one helped them escape. Not everyone understands all Germans were not evil Nazis. I can tell you that the Stasi or the former East German Secret police were based off of the Gestapo and they were under communist control and feared more then the KGB.

[Rosa]

democratic elections? bah: you spend over 5 million $ on theese elections, and they are nothing but fight between 2-3 high(economiclly)-class morons wanting power, and they compete each other on "who is going to wash more brains and take the votes". Does any of theese "democratic elections" change anything in political system? No.

[peaccenicked]

you still equate communism with stalinism
when will you ever learn?

[Rosa]

democratic elections? bah: you spend over 5 million $ on theese elections, and they are nothing but fight between 2-3 high(economiclly)-class morons wanting power, and they compete each other on "who is going to wash more brains and take the votes". Does any of theese "democratic elections" change anything in political system? No.

[Forever capitalism]

Why convolute my words. Communism in theory is not the same in practice. Stalinism is a form of communism in practice. The question still stands peacenicked and i hope you honour it with an answer.

[Jurhael]

"you still equate communism with stalinism
when will you ever learn?"

Probably never.

It's like speaking to a brick wall.

[MindCrime]

Imperial Power,

First of, before I begin, I'd like to say a word or two about propaganda. Have you ever taken a Political Science Methodology course? Look at the polls taken in the public. Even the simple arangement of the names on a check sheet has an affect on how people choose them. Using the phrase "government helping the poor" instead of "welfare" increases a response by almost 40%! Words are propaganda. And you use them as much as I or anyone else does. I am not destributing this to the public, this is between you and me and the members of this forum. Please, use a substantial argument instead of screaming PROPAGANDA! at every turn. This is discussion and I speak from my heart on these issues. Do the same and I think some real progress can be made. Thank you.

...................

If a technology was developed by evil, would I throw it away? If it was a single bomb that was responsible for the deaths of almost a QUARTER MILLION people in Haroshima alone, then yes, I would throw it away. I know it was called the Manhattan Project, I'm not stupid, but you can call it whatever you want, it was still populated by Nazi scientists. Atomic bombs...Fighter jets....These things you got from they Nazis, they are used to destroy life. Admitedly, jet engines can be used for regular planes, but the bulk of them facilitate fighters. We could have developed them without the Nazi's help. Either way, bombs and fighters arnt used to feed the hungry or house the poor, theyre used to kill people. Is that what you stand for?

"When you welcome the Devil into you're house, it can be difficult to make him leave."
~Anonymous

You claim to have herocilly rescued these Nazi scientists from the USSR, yet the Soviets still developed the Bomb. (The immigrant accused of treason and executed for giving the secret to the Soviets was later cleared, after his death of course. God bless our justice system!). What good did it do to save them? You didnt stop the Soviets form developing the same weapons! All it acomplished was giving an escape route to the weapon developers of the most horrific regime in history.

Vernor von Braun was a genius, and he was also going to stand trial for war crimes. He developed the V2 rocket, which lead to high civilian losses in England over the war (it was essentially lobbed over there periodically to kill people and scare the populace). He also helped plan death camps across the Nazi Empire and even reccomend the specific toxins used in the gas chambers. He also poineered the Nazis sterilization program of homosexuals, alcoholics, disabled, and other "degenerates". He was greatly in favor of bizarre experaments and eugenic programs that would be concidered crimes agains humanity. Does this sound like a good person to you? Does it sound like one of the "good Nazis" you described?

You keep coming back to Stalin and the Soviet Union. Let me tell you, for now and all time, I do not support Stalin and the degeneration of the Union under his leadership. I dont supoport them, IP, I'm not championing their cause. I AM questioning how you can stand by America after all these violations of international justice that have been commited.

A high ranking Pentogon offical remarked that "in persuit of our anti-soviet policy, we're prepared to overlook the warcrimes of some former Nazi's." America's leaders were so paraniod about the Soviet forces that they we're willing to do away all the good they had acomplished fighting the Nazis, all the lives that had been lost defeating the fascists, and offer them amnesty in return for their diabolical aid. What do you have to say of this, IP? What do you have to say of Gernhert (spelling), the leader of the Nazis Eastern intellegence division, who was going to stand trial but was saved by American intervention? He was a sadistic fiend who concidered tourture to be "a high and noble art." And America took him in and learned from him. Even today, the South American dictators that imprison anyone speaking out, and torture them for years, they were traind by the CIA, who owe their skill to this famous Nazi.

Bottom line IP, if you use the same methods and means of your enemy, you are no diffrent than him. You can spout "truth, justice, and the American way" all day long, but if you protect them with the same methods the Nazis used to commit their wars and genocides, then you are every bit as despicable.

[peaccenicked]

stalinism has nothing to do with communist practice.
It is the practice of killing communists and anybodyelse who gets in the road.
forever not studied in history. read a book.

[Imperial Power]

MindCrime you believe the United States is just as bad as Nazi Germany? You seem to be an anti-war supporter which I would agree with if it was possible. But as long as there are weapons in the hands of enemy's we cannot disarm.

"Bottom line IP, if you use the same methods and means of your enemy, you are no diffrent than him. You can spout "truth, justice, and the American way" all day long, but if you protect them with the same methods the Nazis used to commit their wars and genocides, then you are every bit as despicable. "

Do you believe there should be no military then and just allow ourselves to be overrun. Someone will always be wanting to fight, just look at Islamic Jihad. The whole world is despicable according to you.

[Rosa]

yeah, the Vietnam was a really big threat to you. And Iraq. ...to have all the oil for themselves! A BLASPHEMY, ISN'T IT?

[peaccenicked]

Germ War: The US Record
"As far as chemical and biological weapons are concerned, Saddam Hussein is a repeat offender. He has used them against his neighbors and on his own people." Madeleine Albright, US Secretary of State

By Madeleine Albright's criteria Saddam has a ways to go to catch up with the United States, which has deployed its CBW arsenal against the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Vietnam, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Cuba, Haitian boat people and Canada, plus exposure of hundreds of thousands of unwitting US citizens to an astonishing array of germ agents and toxic chemicals, killing dozens of people.

The US experimentation with bio-weapons goes back to the distribution of cholera-infect blankets to American Indian tribes in the 1860s. In1900, US Army doctors in the Philippines infected five prisoners with a variety of plague and 29 prisoners with Beriberi. At least four of the subjects died. In 1915, a doctor working with government grants exposed 12 prisoners in Mississippi to pellagra, an incapacitating disease that attacks the central nervous system.

After World War I, the United States went on a chemical weapons binge, producing millions of barrels of mustard gas and Lewisite. Thousands of US troops were exposed to these chemical agents in order to "test the efficacy of gas masks and protective clothing". The Veterans Administration refused to honor disability claims from victims of such experiments. The Army also deployed mustard gas against anti-US protesters in Puerto Rico and the Philippines in the 1920s and 1930s.

In 1931, Dr. Cornelius Rhoads, then under contract with the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Investigations, initiated his horrific Puerto Rico Cancer Experiments, infecting dozens of unwitting subjects with cancer cells. At least thirteen of his victims died as a result. Rhoads went on to head of the US Army Biological Weapons division and to serve on the Atomic Energy Commission, where he oversaw radiation experiments on thousands of US citizens. In memos to the Department of Defense, Rhoads expressed his opinion that Puerto Rican dissidents could be "eradicated" with the judicious use of germ bombs.

In 1942, US Army and Navy doctors infected 400 prisoners in Chicago with malaria in experiments designed to get "a profile of the disease and develop a treatment for it." Most of the inmates were black and none was informed of the risks of the experiment. Nazi doctors on trial at Nuremberg cited the Chicago malaria experiments as part of their defense.

At the close of World War II, the US Army put on its payroll, Dr. Shiro Ishii, the head of the Imperial Army of Japan's bio-warfare unit. Dr. Ishii had deployed a wide range of biological and chemical agents against Chinese and Allied troops. He also operated a large research center in Manchuria, where he conducted bio-weapons experiments on Chinese, Russian and American prisoners of war. Ishii infected prisoners with tetanus; gave them typhoid-laced tomatoes; developed plague-infected fleas; infected women with syphilis; performed dissections on live prisoners; and exploded germ bombs over dozens of men tied to stakes. In a deal hatched by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, Ishii turned over more than 10,000 pages of his "research findings" to the US Army, avoided prosecution for war crimes and was invited to lecture at Ft. Detrick, the US Army bio-weapons center in Frederick, Maryland.

In 1950 the US Navy sprayed large quantities of serratia marcescens, a bacteriological agent, over San Francisco, promoting an outbreak of pneumonia-like illnesses and causing the death of at least one man, Ed Nevins.

A year later, Chinese Premier Chou En-lai charged that the US military and the CIA had used bio-agents against North Korea and China. Chou produced statements from 25 US prisoners of war backing him his claims that the US had dropped anthrax contaminated feathers, mosquitoes and fleas carrying Yellow Fever and propaganda leaflets spiked with cholera over Manchuria and North Korea.

From 1950 through 1953, the US Army released chemical clouds over six US and Canadian cities. The tests were designed to test dispersal patterns of chemical weapons. Army records noted that the compounds used over Winnipeg, Canada, where there were numerous reports of respiratory illnesses, involved cadmium, a highly toxic chemical.

In 1951 the US Army secretly contaminated the Norfolk Naval Supply Center in Virginia with infectious bacteria. One type was chosen because blacks were believed to be more susceptible than whites. A similar experiment was undertaken later that year at Washington, DC's National Airport. The bacteria was later linked to food and blood poisoning and respiratory problems.

Savannah, Georgia and Avon Park, Florida were the targets of repeated Army bio-weapons experiments in 1956 and 1957. Army CBW researchers released millions of mosquitoes on the two towns in order to test the ability of insects to carry and deliver yellow fever and dengue fever. Hundreds of residents fell ill, suffering from fevers, respiratory distress, stillbirths, encephalitis and typhoid. Army researchers disguised themselves as public health workers in order photograph and test the victims. Several deaths were reported.

In 1965 the US Army and the Dow Chemical Company injected dioxin into 70 prisoners (most of them black) at the Holmesburg State Prison in Pennsylvania. The prisoners developed severe lesions which went untreated for seven months. A year later, the US Army set about the most ambitious chemical warfare operation in history.

From 1966 to 1972, the United States dumped more than 12 million gallons of Agent Orange (a dioxin-powered herbicide) over about 4.5 million acres of South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. The government of Vietnam estimate the civilian casualties from Agent Orange at more than 500,000. The legacy continues with high levels of birth defects in areas that were saturated with the chemical. Tens of thousands of US soldiers were also the victims of Agent Orange.

In a still classified experiment, the US Army sprayed an unknown bacterial agent in the New York Subway system in 1966. It is not known if the test caused any illnesses.

A year later, the CIA placed a chemical substance in the drinking water supply of the Food and Drug Administration headquarters in Washington, DC. The test was designed to see if it was possible to poison drinking water with LSD or other incapacitating agents.

In 1969, Dr. D.M. McArtor, the deputy director for Research and Technology for the Department of Defense, asked Congress to appropriate $10 million for the development of a synthetic biological agent that would be resistant "to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease".

In 1971 the first documented cases of swine fever in the western hemisphere showed up in Cuba. A CIA agent later admitted that he had been instructed to deliver the virus to Cuban exiles in Panama, who carried the virus into Cuba in March of 1991. This astounding admission received scant attention in the US press.

In 1980, hundreds of Haitian men, who had been locked up in detention camps in Miami and Puerto Rico, developed gynecomasia after receiving "hormone" shots from US doctors. Gynecomasia is a condition causing males to develop full-sized female breasts.

In 1981, Fidel Castro blamed an outbreak of dengue fever in Cuba on the CIA. The fever killed 188 people, including 88 children. In 1988, a Cuban exile leader named Eduardo Arocena admitted "bringing some germs" into Cuba in 1980.

Four years later an epidemic of dengue fever struck Managua, Nicaragua. Nearly 50,000 people came down with the fever and dozens died. This was the first outbreak of the disease in Nicaragua. It occurred at the height of the CIA's war against the Sandinista government and followed a series of low-level "reconnaissance" flights over the capital city.

In 1996, the Cuba government again accused the US of engaging in "biological aggression". This time it involved an outbreak of thrips palmi, an insect that kills potato crops, palm trees and other vegetation. Thrips first showed up in Cuba on December 12, 1996, following low-level flights over the island by US government spray planes. The US has been unable to quash a United Nations investigation of the incident that is now underway.

At the close of the Gulf War, the US Army exploded an Iraqi chemical weapons depot at Kamashiya. In 1996, the Department of Defense finally admitted that more than 20,000 US troops were exposed to VX and sarin nerve agents as a result of the US operation at Kamashiya. This may be one cause of Gulf War Illness, another cause is certainly the experimental vaccines unwittingly given to more than 100,000 US troops.

[Forever capitalism]

you really need to let go of your cut and paste articles as a reference to "back up" your argument. Propaganda and rhetoric we can do without.

[peaccenicked]

so what is not true?

[Forever capitalism]

I don't read inane drivel especially something that has been plagerised and does not represstn the thought process of the individual. For brevatys sake keep it simple. A good debater can present his argument without having to resort to a million word theory or essay that is monotonous and boring.

[peaccenicked]

so what is not true?

[rebel with a cause]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 10:01 pm on Feb. 19, 2002
yaeh warlords that came to significance after the inevitable collapse of communist/totalitarian regimes in the African continent leaving a power vacuum. I would like to see evidence where they are supported by American dollars if in 1993 America intervened in Somalia in order to eliminate the warlords and establish a democracy. Name me the warlords MineCrime and enlighten me. Better yet, refute the facts and without monotonous and inane essays as people have lives and dont' spend everyday, 24/7 reading pointless essays that trip over their own contradictions and propaganda.


obviously you barely know a thing about our intervention in somolia

secondly, you want proof of who we provided and funded in Latin America

answer to that is easy

fort benning, georgia

School of the Americas

I have these on file, just for the notorious graduates its
77 microsoft word pages.

http://www.derechos.org/soa/index.html

[Imperial Power]

Rosa you should study the Domino Theory which is what lead to Vietnam. It was seen as a threat to the United States and thats why they gt involved.

[peaccenicked]

the dominoe theory was what everywhere turns
communist and america gets surrounded.
so we have got to stop 'communism' in its tracks.
Even if it violates the national soveriegnity of every other nation, none of whom are planning to declare war on you.
vietnam was nothing to do with ideology
more to do with Real Estate.

[Forever capitalism]

The U.S. was involved in Vietnam because the Chinese and other communist countries were supporting the Vietnamese communits through economic and military assistance. That cannot be denied. People say America intervened but is it alright for China to send ammunition and weapons that kill innocent people. Vietnam, after the Vietnam War invaded Cambodia as well as having border confrontations with China. This beligerence is what the U.S. was trying to prevent. The domino theory was rapant, attack was in this case the best form of defence, hence forward defence policy.

[peaccenicked]

article from net.


The Vietnam debacle | page 1, 2

Yet Ho was never, as the current crop of revisionists insists, a pawn of communist masters. In August 1945, when Ho declared independence, he read the American Declaration of Independence in front of the Hanoi opera house. Earlier, when he formed a provisional government in the jungle in 1950, he asked for recognition from Marshal Tito -- whose nonaligned stance in Yugoslavia made him Stalin's enemy No. 1. This was not the action of a man controlled by Moscow. As for China, its relationship with Vietnam could best be described as one of mutual hatred. The notion that the North Vietnamese communists ever advanced a Chinese agenda is preposterous.

The United States put its weight behind an anti-communist regime in the South headed by Ngo Dinh Diem, but Diem could not cope with the growing Viet Cong insurgency and in 1963 he was murdered in a coup by his senior officers. Though Kennedy approved the coup, he was stunned by the assassination. Despite much conjecture, there is no evidence that Kennedy would have withdrawn from Vietnam had he been reelected in 1964.

Johnson, like Kennedy, believed in the domino theory, which held that if the communists took over Vietnam, the rest of Southeast Asia would fall. And not just Southeast Asia: If the Viet Cong triumphed, LBJ notoriously said, "we'd end up fighting on the beaches of Waikiki." Richard Nixon, who succeeded him as president, echoed this claim with his famous statement that if the United States did not hold the line, it would end up "a pitiful, helpless giant."

These fears did not come true -- nor is there any proof that the war had much effect one way or the other on the region's eventual embracing of capitalism. The Vietnamese did attempt to exercise control over Laos and Cambodia, neighboring nations that had been part of French Indochina. Laos was vital to the Viet Cong because the Ho Chi Minh Trail ran through it. They weren't as successful in Cambodia, where Prince Norodom Sihanouk, a master political juggler, relied heavily on China, which dreaded Vietnamese expansionism, to thwart them.

Despite his fear of communist expansion, Johnson was not the warmonger caricatured by cartoonists. His obsession was the Great Society, his liberal agenda. But as the situation in Vietnam deteriorated, he felt that he had to send in combat troops. By late l967, 500,000 Americans were serving there.

Their commander, Gen. William C. Westmoreland, had at his disposal the most sophisticated technology in America's arsenal -- automatic rifles, heavy artillery, supersonic planes, aircraft carriers and a panoply of spooky electronic devices. He was persuaded that, with his superior firepower, he would overwhelm the communists and crack their morale. I saw mountains of enemy corpses piled up after battles, but Westmoreland's optimism was an illusion. He was up against obdurate, resilient adversaries who refused to surrender. For them the war was a sacred crusade.

Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, the communist commander, explained this phenomenon to me during a lengthy talk in Hanoi in 1991. As we reviewed the past, I asked how long the communists would have continued fighting. Without the slightest hesitation he thundered, "Another 10, 20, 50, maybe 100 years until victory -- regardless of cost."

So, as the war ground on and U.S. casualties steadily mounted, it became clear to Americans that the war was unwinnable, and they greeted the fall of Saigon on April 30, 1975, with a mixture of shock and relief. Defeat was a debacle, but not a disaster. The long nightmare was finally over.

Americans old enough to remember Vietnam bitterly recall the duplicity of leaders who propelled the United States deeper and deeper in the futile endeavor in Southeast Asia. Among the numerous legacies of the distaste is a pervasive distrust of politicians, a trend that was visible during the recent primary elections, when many voters deemed character to be more important than issues -- an attitude that benefited Sen. John McCain. Thus citizens are more skeptical than they have ever been -- a healthy development that could be construed as the silver lining in the stormy Vietnam experience