Zionism is Fascism, exerpts from a leading Zionist organization

[TC]

I'm starting this thread over complaints that people have been calling Zionism, Fascism. Well, guess what, Zionism is an obviously Fascist ideology, but don't take it from me, take it from one of the principle Zionist organizations: Betar.

Betar is an obviously fascist zionist youth organization that operates across the globe promoting explicitly fascistic Jewish National Socialism. Betar was instrumental in establishing the state of Israel, fighting the British during the mandate, and is closely connected with the Israeli government, Likud and Kadima parties. Many Israeli prime ministers including current Israeli PM Ehud Olmert were members. This is no fringe group, its reflective of mainline Zionist ideology.

Here are some direct quotes from the British branch's website under the ideology page, found here: http://www.betar.co.uk/ideology.php


Betar signifies a generation that dedicates its life to the sole idea of a Jewish State, without recognizing any other ideals...

... First of all, however, the Jewish nation must build its state, this undertaking is so complicated and difficult that it demands the full strength of an entire generation, perhaps even more than one generation. Jewish youth must, therefore, devote itself completely to this sole task; all other ideas, though they be beautiful and humane, should influence us only in so far as they do not hinder the rebuilding of a Jewish state. When one of these ideas becomes, even if indirectly, an obstacle on the road to a Jewish state, it must be mercilessly sacrificed in favor of the one ideal...

To this ideal all other ideas must bow, and near it there should not and cannot exist a second ideal, for two ideals are as absurd as two gods; one can worship only one G-d and only one ideal. Everything else one may like is, and must, remain secondary importance.

I'm sorry, but that could have been lifted straight out of Benito Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism, this is Fascism. http://www.constitution.org/tyr/mussolini.htm (http://www.constitution.org/tyr/mussolini.htm)

The total subordination of the individual to the state, "Everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing above the state", even the language Betar uses as well as the religious comparison seems to parrot Mussolini.


This conception Betar holds to be the most conspicuous example of "shaatnez" of a blind absurdity. Classes can exist only in an already formulated and established society; since we are concerned as yet with the colonizing stage, there are no "classes" or "proletarians" or "wealthy" -
there are only pioneers. These "chalutzim" each of whom participates as well as he or she is able, in a mutual and very difficult enterprise are merely figures on the chessboard of Zionism
- whoever they are, they play a fighting game while being manipulated by one excellent player.
They, the chalutzim, are merely various instruments in an orchestra; each instrument has its own musical score, but the combined instruments play at the same concert and are led by the same conductor. In our case, the chess player and the conductor is named the Jewish State.

No classes, only "pioneers" who are 'chess pieces' of the state!


Nobody denies that even in Palestine the individual interests of the worker are unlike those of his employer: the former want to earn more, the latter to pay less, - as in any other country.
However, whereas in France or Italy it is not the concern of the worker whether his employer, a manufacturer, can "stand" a high wage or not, the case is entirely different in Palestine. There the worker, if he is a Zionist, cannot afford the luxury of running a factory because thus the scope of colonization is narrowed.. The manufacturer too, if he is a Zionist, should not tolerate impossible working conditions in his enterprise which then would lose its colonizatory significance. In other words: in Palestine, higher and mightier than class-interests, the common interest of rebuilding the Jewish State rules supreme. Consequently there should be no talk of class war, a system, the harmful tendency of which, is manifested when one side threatens the other by means of strikes or lockouts. In Palestine, such conflicts must always be settled in one manner only: through obligatory national arbitration...

... Naturally, such a strike is not merely "unholy" - it is a crime, an injustice which is intolerable for the state which needs every one of its pioneers. Such a strike must not merely be disrupted - it must be made impossible; whether one is cursed with the name "scab" or not. An unjust and state disintegrating strike must be mercilessly broken as well as any other attempt to damage the reconstruction of the Jewish State. Finally, it is the right and duty of Betar itself to decide as to the justice or injustice of a conflict; help of the former and break the latter.

Like any good fascists, Betar declares its intent to"mercilessly " "state disintegrating strike[s]" because "[B]in Palestine, higher and mightier than class-interests, the common interest of rebuilding the Jewish State rules supreme."



In another sense too, the class struggle in Eretz Yisrael is but a fiction, in the sense of uniting the "proletarians of all countries" in a common battle against the bourgeoisie of all nations. Every Jewish worker in Eretz Yisrael knows very well indeed that if Arabian proletarians were to attack the hateful bourgeois of Petach Tikvah, he being a Zionist, would defend middle-class property against his "class brethren". Why? Because it is, first of all Jewish property, a factor in Jewish colonization, a position to be eventually utilized in the process of attaining a Jewish majority. A colonizatory period has its own social laws, which are fundamentally different from those that, perhaps, govern the already established countries. Here are several social laws pertaining to our colonization as comprehended and proclaimed by Betar.
a) 100% Jewish Labor in all Jewish enterprises. Otherwise these are, from the colonizatory viewpoint, worthless. The worst of all national crimes in Palestine is the boycott of Jewish Labor.


Like any good fascists, Betar is openly racist. "100% Jewish Labor in all Jewish enterprizes!" What fascist regime does that remind people of?


The Betar is steadfast concerning Legionism: it demands of its members as well of the Jewish youth generally that they fully train in the technique of utilizing firearms, and that they be in readiness always to answer personally the call of self-defense or, time being opportune, of a new Jewish army. The Betar holds that a pioneer who did not prepare himself for this task is useless and unsuitable for Palestine and "Hachshara -a-garin" (military training) is the first and most important of all other requisites. Our rivals call this "militarism". We should not be afraid, however, of a Latin word.

Again, this is text-book fascist ideology. These people actually organize martial arts classes in London. Were they Muslim, no one would hesitate to call them terrorists.


In, however, the case of Jews, who are being beaten everywhere, and even in Palestine are being threatened with destruction - it is certainly proof of good nationalism to arm for the defense of our lives, property and future. We may then well be proud of it. Every great colonization in history, has always entailed a revolt of the natives.
Palestine is no exception to the rule. One who thinks that the Arabs are right to oppose Zionism, may as well reject entirely the idea of colonizing Palestine. But he who holds that the Jewish people has a sacred right in its historic homeland, and that the opposition of the Arabs (a people of only about 40 millions which possesses a territory as large as a half of Europe) is unjustified -
he should draw the logical conclusion, and in accordance with his conviction aid in the creation of that iron wall, which will make destruction impossible.

Betar puts itself in the tradition of "Every great colonization in history", referring to the Intifada as an unjustified "revolt of the natives." Is there any question here that these people deem themselves naturally superior?

But wait, it gets much scarier than that:


The building of Betar is founded upon the principles of discipline. Our aim is to make Betar such a world organism which, at a sign from the center, will be able simultaneously to move tens of thousands of hands in the cities of all countries. Our adversaries say that it is "unworthy of free men", that it means being made into a machine. I propose that we should not be ashamed to reply, and proudly to boot: "Yes - a machine"...

...When ten thousand Czech soldiers are stationed somewhere and at a sign from their commander they all make the same gesture at the very same moment, every onlooker feels that in this there manifests itself the highest self-respect of a free and civilized nation.
....
Indeed the entire conception of "mankind", in its deepest and most delicate sense, is centered in unity. The salvation of Israel will dawn at the moment when the Jewish Nation will learn how to act together and in unison, preferably as a "machine";

I would again direct readers to the link to Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism, http://www.constitution.org/tyr/mussolini.htm (http://www.constitution.org/tyr/mussolini.htm)

Because Mussolini and Betar are talking about percisely the same thing, "liberty" through the subordination of the individual will to the state.

In case anyone was wondering what Betar means by 'discipline', they spell it out explicitly:


Discipline is the subordination of a mass to one leader; that leader must subordinate himself to his superior, the superior to somebody higher than himself, etc...

...Betar is a combination of both "school and army" and a class of pupils or a regiment of soldiers is best led by one teacher or one commander, not by a group with divergent opinions.

Just to repeat "the subordination of a mass to one leader", if thats not Fascism, what is?


a Jew especially, if the expression "aristocrat" has any meaning, it is this: an aristocrat is he whose fathers, grandfathers and so on, for many generations were men of "culture"; men who were not merely existing but were capable to engross themselves in noble ideas and suit their way of life in accordance with higher ideals. If such is the case, we Jews are the most "aristocratic" people in the world. Even the most ancient of ruling dynasties have to their credit not more than 20 - 30 generations of culture. Further, some where at the beginning we find at best a medieval, half-savage peasant, or a robber. Jews, however, have seventy generations of man in the past; men who could read and write; men who studied and discussed G-d, history, ideas of justice, human problems and the future. In this sense, every Jew is a "prince"

This historical justification of the notion that "we Jews are the most 'aristocrat' people in the world", that "every Jew is a 'prince'", sounds very similar to the historic ideological justification for another fascist regimes self-proclaimed master race. Make no mistake, these people are racist white-supremicists to the core.


Woman is a born "organizer". Since ancient times, she has always played the organizing part in every family. The man was the "conqueror", the "attainer"; he was a hunter; it was his job to find edible "stuff" for the table, garments to cover the body. The task of the woman, then as ever, was to transform all the material the man brought home into real food, suitable clothes and general comfort...

...There is also the type of empty headed, flapperish girl; but nonetheless, every one of the latter too has this inclination to orderliness, to quiet systematization. Betarian education will have to seek the way in which to train a refined citizeness for the Jewish State.
...
An important branch of colonization is house management. The progressive woman of my generation hated it and it was quite natural for them to feel so, because they reacted in this manner against the old viewpoint that "Housewifeliness" is the only affair women are capable to undertake.


Today, women-suffrage is generally acknowledged and consequently, there is no reason for hating a field of endeavor upon which is founded the life of both family and society. Betar will probably develop the highest appreciation and enthusiasm for the conception of "Hachshara Baithith" (house management).


Now that women's suffrage is acknowledged, the "citizeness" can have the "highest appreciation and enthusasism" for being house wives! This I guess is more just generally reactionary rather than specifically fascistic, but I thought to inclue it anyways.


The word "giyus (mobilization is definable thus: first and most important is the mobilization of a Jewish army at the opportune time. The second mobilization signifies permanence, and it refers to every Betari who settles in Eretz Yisrael. According to our statutes, the Betari must consider himself "mobilized" for a period of two years and is obligated to do any assigned work in any given place in conditions deemed fit by the Betar Executive.


We, therefore, demand of every Betari that during the first two years in Eretz Yisrael he should entirely disregard his own interest. During that time, a Betari is only an instrument of rebuilding; he must not prefer to work in Tel Aviv rather than in Metula or be pleased to become a baker rather than a carpenter. he must go to such places and do such labor as the Jewish State might demand and as commanded by the Betar in Eretz Yisrael. Thus act those of our young laborers who, at present, are working in various Jewish settlements, and who are organized into "Plugot-agiyus" (work corps).

...one thing must be remembered: the first two years are not yours, they belong to the Nation.


Military organization in all aspects of life.


The first convention of Betar (Vienna 1928) resolved that the Betar uniforms especially the brown shirts (which, by the way, were worn before one had heard of the German Nazi movement) should be made by Jewish weavers in Eretz Yisrael. To our regret, this has not been realized in actuality; but this will be a duty of Betar in all the countries, to develop great and systematized work on behalf of the products of the Yishuv.

Betar actually goes out of its way to stake a claim as the original brownshirts!


The remainder of the document describes Betar's version of "socialism", just in case anyone was wondering if these were of the corporatist or national socialist varity of fascists, they appear to be the later.

[ArabRASH]

Fuck the Zionists!!!! Victory to the Intifada!!!! Fuckin fascists....

[Dros]

Who (on this board) says Zionism isn't fascism?

[BobKKKindle$]

Who (on this board) says Zionism isn't fascism?

Zionism shares many of the features of Fascism (emphasis on the importance of ethnicity, the link between "blood" and "soil" etc) but it is not synonymous with Fascism, as Fascism is an ideology that gains prominence during periods of crisis, when the bourgeoisie seeks to crush workers organisations - these conditions are not applicable to Israel, as Zionism still commands support amongst what is considered the "left" in Israeli political discourse.

[EwokUtopia]

In regards to the occupation, yes, it certainly is fascist, or at very least, a brutal police state (cutting hairs?). In regards to how it works inside the Israeli borders, it is merely a more severe form of settler capitalist democracies, such as the US, Canada, US, Australia, et cetera. The problem with these states is that they can turn fascist in a pinch if the people are hyped up with enough fear and nationalism. If the zionists face a crisis, I have no doubt they will become fascist.

Lets not forget what Netanyahu said about the so-called "demographic threat":

[paraphrased]"If the Arab population of Israel grows larger than 20%, then Israel can not remain both democratic and Jewish in nature."

Netanyahu certainly doesn't seem like the type of guy to choose civil liberties over ethnic rhetoric, does he?

[BobKKKindle$]

In regards to how it works inside the Israeli borders, it is merely a more severe form of settler capitalist democracies, such as the US, Canada, US, Australia, et cetera

There is a large Arab minority within Israel, the members of which hold Israeli citizenship; however Arabs continue to face discrimination in employment (important sectors of the economy are closed to them on the grounds that they could pose a security risk) and are prevented from learning about the history of their people and how Israel came to exist (the Shin Bet, Israel's secret police, controls all promotions and appointments in schools). It is partly for this reason that Israel has no constitution - the inclusion of an equality cause would strengthen the legal legitimacy of challenges to the system of apartheid which pervades Israel.

[EwokUtopia]

There is a large Arab minority within Israel, the members of which hold Israeli citizenship; however Arabs continue to face discrimination in employment (important sectors of the economy are closed to them on the grounds that they could pose a security risk) and are prevented from learning about the history of their people and how Israel came to exist (the Shin Bet, Israel's secret police, controls all promotions and appointments in schools). It is partly for this reason that Israel has no constitution - the inclusion of an equality cause would strengthen the legal legitimacy of challenges to the system of apartheid which pervades Israel.

Sounds alot like how we (Canada) treated the indigenous people only 30 years ago.

[TC]

Zionism shares many of the features of Fascism (emphasis on the importance of ethnicity, the link between "blood" and "soil" etc) but it is not synonymous with Fascism, as Fascism is an ideology that gains prominence during periods of crisis, when the bourgeoisie seeks to crush workers organisations - these conditions are not applicable to Israel, as Zionism still commands support amongst what is considered the "left" in Israeli political discourse.


As I said in the original post, I was speaking of the ideology and politics of fascism not the socio-economic phenomenon of fascism as described by Marxists.

Similarly the BNP, the KKK, Front National, etc share a Fascist ideology with Mussolini and Hitler and Franco although they don't share the same socio-economic status that the successful fascists respective movements attained.

Just as "communism" refers to both an ideological position and a (theoretical) socio-economic structure, Fascism is a term that refers to concepts in both categories.

[Edelweiss]

Zionism is not a fascist ideology per se. Maybe there are fascist currents within zionism, but to say that fascism is always fascist is totally absurd. Zionism is quiet heterogeneous, it reaches from labour zionism to radical religious zionism.

After all the state of Israel was the logical conclusion of a real fascist regime and it's crimes. All comparisons with Israel and fascism/Nazism mostly just have the aim to turn history upside down and to make culprits out of the victims of the holocaust.

Israel is not a fascist state at all, maybe that's bullshit is good for your propaganda, but it's just politically inaccurate. Israel today is comparable to apartheid, but not to fascism. Big fucking difference.

[Dros]

Zionism shares many of the features of Fascism (emphasis on the importance of ethnicity, the link between "blood" and "soil" etc) but it is not synonymous with Fascism, as Fascism is an ideology that gains prominence during periods of crisis, when the bourgeoisie seeks to crush workers organisations - these conditions are not applicable to Israel, as Zionism still commands support amongst what is considered the "left" in Israeli political discourse.

No, that's true. They're not synonymous. Nazism and fascism are not synonymous. Nazism and Zionism are subsets of fascism. And fascism as a system is not defined by how it emerges but by how it organizes society around the means of production. I think Zionism (regardless of ideological diversity) is in practice a necessarily fascist ideology.

[NuBemet]

:confused:

A very important thing you forgot to mention is that this Ideaology was written 1929, 20 years before the establishment of Israel.

Betar was one of the most radical movement among a variety of jewish movements of the early 20th century that can be defined as "zionist", that is, seeking a homeland for the jewish diaspora in the holly-land of Israel (or palestine, if you wish), and MOST CERTAINLY can not be considered as "one of the principal zionist organizations", unless you really wish it would be ;)

I wouldn't comment about all the other lies and twisting of the facts, have still some work to do on this wonderful sunny sunday. What I would recommend to you is to catch a plane and come for a visit, and then make up your mind.

Cheers,
Moshe, Israel.

[LSD]

Sorry Tragic, but all you've proven is that Betar has fascistic tendencies, not Zionism in general. That's like claiming communism is homophobic because Stalin criminalized gay sex.

Zionism is a very complicated, very multi-faceted ideology, which in all rights probably shouldn't even be categorized as a single ideology at all. After all, there is a world of difference between radical theocratic settlers in Gaza who seek to drive all arabs to the Jordan river, and draft dodging secular Jews in Tel Aviv who campaign for an independent Palestine. And yet both might (rightfully) categorize themselves as "Zionists".

At this point, the word has taken on so many secondary and connotative meanings as to be almost useless ...kind of like "fascism", actually.

[MT5678]

I don't know. I was reading National Geographic the other day, and its article on Zionism mentioned that many Zionists echo the same themes of Betar. Those shitheads and *****es want nothing better than to drive all the Palestinians out, and "walk the paths [their] forefathers walked".

[EwokUtopia]

Zionism is a colonial movement, not a fascist one. It could be argued that Colonialism is worse than fascism (European genocides in the America's outnumbered the body count of the holocaust), but they are still separate.

I do say that Israel, as well as the US for that matter, could well become fascist in no time flat, if they ever feel threatened enough to do so. In Israel, it would likely be an ethnically based fascism, where in the US, it would be religiously based.

[Awful Reality]

Well first, Zionism is not as specific as you make it out to be. Zionism started as a religious form of nationalism among many Eastern Jews in the late 1800's (and we know that most nationalist groups end up fascist) in defense and promotion of a universal Jewish paradise, where all world Jews could live in a single nation. Of course, Zionism is much more complicated, but as a term, that is all Zionism really stands for. There is nothing inherently "Fascist" about Zionism (although there seems to be something inherently Fascist about Betar).

I have had many dealings with Zionists, especially the Ultra-Religious ones, and I do not believe that Zionism is Fascist. One must understand, after talking to the general Religious Zionists, that Zionism is a rather fickle ideology. It is designed as a belief of sympathy: It continues to cause, produce, and propagate its own defense and reason for existence. Zionists are not exactly concrete: they seem to be fascist when they need to be, secularist when they need be, religious when they need be, and moderate when they need be (may I note that it is self-contradictory to be a Religious Fascist organization, at least under the established state).

One, in an analysis of Zionism, must consider the good it has led to: namely the Kibbutz. The Kibbutz is a pure form of Marxism- it is Anarcho-Socialism. Anyone, I contend, who is against the Kibbutz is certainly no Marxist. However, the type of fickle division I describe above among Zionists does not allow one to fully analyze Zionism. It is not a well-united ideology, it has never been truly implemented and it is not very well defined as a term, However, I must say that some aspects of Zionism are certainly Fascist.

[Dros]

Zionism is a colonial movement, not a fascist one.

It's colonialism on the basis of and for the express purpose of advancing the interests of one nation over another. It is also (in practice) one that advocates fascistic economic and social policies.

[Die Neue Zeit]

As I said in the original post, I was speaking of the ideology and politics of fascism not the socio-economic phenomenon of fascism as described by Marxists.

So by that same token, Bismarck's Prussia was a fascist state, huh? :glare:

Not every form of authoritarian capitalism is fascist. To say otherwise is reductionist! (http://www.revleft.com/vb/internal-challenges-revolutionary-t70556/index.html) This f-word is good for agitational demonstrations, NOT for extensive revolutionary Marxist propaganda amongst comrades. :(



[Likewise, Zionism's twin, pan-Arabism, is NOT "yet another form of fascism."]

[Edelweiss]

It is also (in practice) one that advocates fascistic economic and social policies.

Fascistic economic policies?! Such as what? Last time I checked Israel was a bourgeois democracy comparable to South Africa in it's discrimination policies towards a specific ethnicity, but in no way it's comparable to a fascist state in any political accurate sense.

The theory of Israel being a fascist state, and zionism being a fascist ideology has been debunked by several people in this thread and there is nothing left but bullshit which would back this thesis. well, except you are a brandead Maoist or Clownist.

[EwokUtopia]

One, in an analysis of Zionism, must consider the good it has led to: namely the Kibbutz. The Kibbutz is a pure form of Marxism- it is Anarcho-Socialism. Anyone, I contend, who is against the Kibbutz is certainly no Marxist.

Look at the Kibbutz's today. They are nothing like what they were originally intended on being. You also have to remember that alot of people were (and pathetically, still are) deluded into Zionism by the thought that Palestine was "A land without a people for a people without a land", so you see many people going there thinking it was empty. If it was empty, great, no problem. However, as we all know, it was not empty, indeed the notion that some of the best land on the Mediterranean could have remained empty until 1948 is quite absurd.

In this notion, I view the founders of the Kibbutz as something of well-intentioned idiots. If you want to found a Socialist paradise community, that is great, but better make sure you arent stealing land from Olive Farmers who have lived there for generations.

I have always contended that Israel is a state which could have been ideal, but has become quite the opposite. If it was founded in land ceded by the Germans (If anyone owed the Jews land, surely it was Germany), then there would be no problem. Take Konigsburg. Ceded to the Soviets in 1945. Who complains about this? Only ultranationalists, who are quite unpopular in modern Germany. If only that is where the Jewish state was created, the world would be a much happier place. But no, it had to be the "holy land", so that the Christian Right could have the ability to manipulate events to make their precious savior come back after standing them up for 2 millenia.




Well, went on a bit of a ramble there. Its all a very complex matter, but still, the standard saying applies here as much as anywhere else "if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry christmas."

Aside from moralistic opinions, which I do hold, in a completely objective manner, one can not help but to realize that Zionism is perhaps the biggest shit-disturber in the last 60 years.

[Zurdito]

How about if the Kibbutz is built on the rubble of a Palestinian village and protected from its old inhabitants by a wall and tanks?

That's why "labour zionism" means about as much as the fact that fascist movements can have "labour wings". The BNP has a trade union. So what?

[SouthernBelle82]

The more I've been reading and studying on Zionism the more and more I agree. Only thing you have to do is change the proper words and you have Nazi Germany. Only thing is there's some religion involved since Judaism is both religion and race. It's really quite sad and what's even more sad is that not enough people are standing up and saying no. What's the phrase used? Never forget? Seems they haven't forgotten but are making adaptations. I am glad though there are some peace groups in Israel not going this route but it seems they're like us leftist Christian's and are still being drowned out by their fascist counter parts.

[SouthernBelle82]

I also remember reading during the Lebanon/Israel conflict that Israeli officials wouldn't give shelter to those who were non-Jewish whether Arabic or something else. One thing I find kinda sad is how with the rightwing Christian's and the rightwing Jewish people they both want to destroy each other and are using each other for that purpose without letting the other know. :rolleyes: One thing I found sad and interesting is during the Lebanon conflict not too long ago they bombed more moderate Muslim's and moderate Christian's than anyone else. I wonder why that is?


There is a large Arab minority within Israel, the members of which hold Israeli citizenship; however Arabs continue to face discrimination in employment (important sectors of the economy are closed to them on the grounds that they could pose a security risk) and are prevented from learning about the history of their people and how Israel came to exist (the Shin Bet, Israel's secret police, controls all promotions and appointments in schools). It is partly for this reason that Israel has no constitution - the inclusion of an equality cause would strengthen the legal legitimacy of challenges to the system of apartheid which pervades Israel.

[SouthernBelle82]

So wanting to kick out anyone and everyone who isn't Jewish isn't fascist? Than what would you say it is? Isn't that what Hitler wanted to do with the "pure" race crap?


Fascistic economic policies?! Such as what? Last time I checked Israel was a bourgeois democracy comparable to South Africa in it's discrimination policies towards a specific ethnicity, but in no way it's comparable to a fascist state in any political accurate sense.

The theory of Israel being a fascist state, and zionism being a fascist ideology has been debunked by several people in this thread and there is nothing left but bullshit which would back this thesis. well, except you are a brandead Maoist or Clownist.

[spartan]

So wanting to kick out anyone and everyone who isn't Jewish isn't fascist? Than what would you say it is?

No it is racism.

Fascism isnt synonymous with racism, indeed far from it in its early days (Many Jewish businessmen openly funded Fascist parties as they were anti-Communist, and Communists want to take away the Bourgeoisie's property, and some were even leading members of some Fascist movements like the British Union of Fascists).

We must also not forget that Francos Spain was a haven for Jews fleeing Nazi Germany, and Italy was also the same for a while before Hitler forced the discrimination laws on Mussolini.


Isn't that what Hitler wanted to do with the "pure" race crap?

That was extreme German Nationalism mixed with racism, eugenics, and all that other crap, but it certainly wasnt Fascism in the true sense of the word as there was no Coporatist model in place in Nazi Germany as far as i know.

All Germany had economic wise was just a mixture of Private and State Capitalism, which was necessary to build up Germanys war machine in preperation for war, which was a price the Bourgeois were willing to pay for supporting the Nazis as long as the Nazis crushed the Communists (Who would have taken away all the Bourgeoisie's power).

[SouthernBelle82]

While that's true everything I've been seeing with Zionism compares to what was going on with Nazi Germany. Where's the differences? I just don't see it. It just seems to be too much of the same to me. :confused:


No it is racism.

Fascism isnt synonymous with racism, indeed far from it in its early days (Many Jewish businessmen openly funded Fascist parties as they were anti-Communist, and Communists want to take away the Bourgeoisie's property, and some were even leading members of some Fascist movements like the British Union of Fascists).

We must also not forget that Francos Spain was a haven for Jews fleeing Nazi Germany, and Italy was also the same for a while before Hitler forced the discrimination laws on Mussolini.

That was extreme German Nationalism mixed with racism, eugenics, and all that other crap, but it certainly wasnt Fascism in the true sense of the word as there was no Coporatist model in place in Nazi Germany as far as i know.

All Germany had economic wise was just a mixture of Private and State Capitalism, which was necessary to build up Germanys war machine in preperation for war, which was a price the Bourgeois were willing to pay for supporting the Nazis as long as the Nazis crushed the Communists (Who would have taken away all the Bourgeoisie's power).

[Edelweiss]

While that's true everything I've been seeing with Zionism compares to what was going on with Nazi Germany. Where's the differences?

Is that a serious question, or arev you really that ignorant?! Maybe the industrial termination of 6 million poeple out of ideological insanity will give you the hint on where the difference is? Another thing you keep ignoring is that Israel is a bourgeois democracy like any other, except it's racist treatment of the Palestinians, which makes it close to South Africa during apartheid, but not to Nazi Germany. It's not remotely comparable to Nazi Germany or fascism.

[Awful Reality]

Okay- I am well connected with Zionists. Betar is a Fascist organization, it is true. However, Betar doesn't have jackshit to do with Zionism. They're highly extremist. In fact, they are just about as extremist as Zionism goes.

Also- It's "Kibbutzim" :o And yes, Kibbutzim are nothing like they used to be. But the idea, and the early Kibbutzim, were ingenious.

[Zurdito]

Is that a serious question, or arev you really that ignorant?! Maybe the industrial termination of 6 million poeple out of ideological insanity will give you the hint on where the difference is? Another thing you keep ignoring is that Israel is a bourgeois democracy like any other, except it's racist treatment of the Palestinians, which makes it close to South Africa during apartheid, but not to Nazi Germany. It's not remotely comparable to Nazi Germany or fascism.

compare the relative size of the populations of Jews in the Middle East and whites in africa, and Germans vs Jews in Europe, and you might have a clue about why they behave differently. But genocide is genocide. The comparison between them is to make that point: racist murderers. For that purpose, it's justified. For an academic debate on the precise nature of fascism, you are right.

[Dros]

Fascistic economic policies?! Such as what? Last time I checked Israel was a bourgeois democracy comparable to South Africa in it's discrimination policies towards a specific ethnicity, but in no way it's comparable to a fascist state in any political accurate sense.

The theory of Israel being a fascist state, and zionism being a fascist ideology has been debunked by several people in this thread and there is nothing left but bullshit which would back this thesis. well, except you are a brandead Maoist or Clownist.

"Israel has a diversified economy with substantial government ownership and a rapidly developing high-tech sector."

Yes, yes. My source for this is wikipedia. I don't have time to find something more "legitimate" right now allthough it shouldn't be all that hard.

And that is what I mean by "fascistic". Isreal is not strictly speaking a fascist state but they have an economy based on private property but with more government control of industry than usually present in a boureois democratic system.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Ah, but even THAT isn't fascism. Fascism is a combination of the following:

1) State capitalism; and
2) Political authoritarianism (not synonymous with state capitalism, given the example of "free-market" Singapore).

And even then, fascism is a petit-bourgeois phenomenon that arises after some sort of prolonged economic crisis. By this definition, the "Second Reich" is excluded, and so is China. CN noted also that the petit-bourgeoisie, not the bourgeoisie, stand to benefit the most from a fascist regime, and may even backstab the latter in such regime.

[NoGodsNoMasters]

I believe there is little difference between Israel and Nazi Germany.

The ideal of both is a racially pure ethnostate with the brutal repression and genocide of another people. Whether they are called 'master race' or 'chosen people' makes little difference to the victim of the genocide.

[bcbm]

I believe there is little difference between Israel and Nazi Germany.


That is a completely insane thing to say.

[NoGodsNoMasters]

That is a completely insane thing to say.

I don't think it insane at all.

I do not believe there are degrees when it comes to racial supremacy and state organized repression and genocide. It is quite simply evil in its purest form. I understand that not everyone in Israel approves of the treatment of Palestinians, but not everyone in Germany was a Nazi either. We have a moral obligation to stop oppression and genocide. Israeli citizens which do not actively attempt to stop their goverment's maltreatment of the Palestinians are just as morally culpable as those ordinary non-Nazi Germans who stood by silently in the face of anti-Jewish policies.

To consider any holocaust or genocide more evil than any other is to give it's victims a greater moral worth than other victims. This is something we cannot do. Oppression must be fought with equal force wherever and to whomever it occurs.

I just found this article from the Jerusalem Post when I was Googling this topic. The link between Israel and the Nazis is closer than many often imagine.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1203343697375&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1203343697375&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

[Edelweiss]

To consider any holocaust or genocide more evil than any other is to give it's victims a greater moral worth than other victims. This is something we cannot do. Oppression must be fought with equal force wherever and to whomever it occurs.

To compare the holocaust with the situation in Palestine is both politically and historically completely insane, and just helps the Nazis to relativize the Nazi crimes. As bad as it is what is going on in Israel/Palestine, in the end it's "just" a struggle for soil, where one side has to suffer from expulsion. There is no systematic, industrial extermination of a whole ethnicity for pure ideological reasons, without any "rational" aims, like the holocaust was. If you can't see this difference, than I feel truly sorry for you.

[Dros]

^^^ Ah, but even THAT isn't fascism. Fascism is a combination of the following:

Correct. That is exactly why I claimed that Israel was fascistic.


And even then, fascism is a petit-bourgeois phenomenon that arises after some sort of prolonged economic crisis.

No. Fascism is a way of organizing the economic base and superstructure around capitalist production relations. It tends to be a petty bourgeois phenomenon, but as with all systems of organizing a society, it is defined by production relations, not how it happened to arise.

[Edelweiss]

You obviously know nothing about the Israeli economy or fascism, drosera. Your uneducated posts on this matter are quiet annoying. Only because there are some state owned companies in Israel that doesn't mean it's a fascist economy. Most social democracies in Europe have/had a good amount of state owned companies, especially in the telecom, energy and public transport sector. So according to your definition half of Europe would have a fascist economy.

[Zurdito]

No. Fascism is a way of organizing the economic base and superstructure around capitalist production relations. It tends to be a petty bourgeois phenomenon, but as with all systems of organizing a society, it is defined by production relations, not how it happened to arise.

I don't think that's true at all. Fascism is a counterrevolutionary ideology, not an economic system. Fascism in power is simply the highest dictatorship of finance capital. This can also be acheived through bonapartism or bourgeois democracy.

[Dros]

You obviously know nothing about the Israeli economy or fascism, drosera. Your uneducated posts on this matter are quiet annoying. Only because there are some state owned companies in Israel that doesn't mean it's a fascist economy. Most social democracies in Europe have/had a good amount of state owned companies, especially in the telecom, energy and public transport sector. So according to your definition half of Europe would have a fascist economy.

Why don't you fucking read my post before you attack me as uneducated? The fact that you live in a formerly fascist country does not make you the resident expert on all things fascist.

I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT ISRAEL WAS FASCIST!

I said that they had certain fascistic tendencies. Fascism is charectarized by a certain elevated degree of government control over the means of production. There is more gov't control in Israel than in these other countries by and large. That, accompanied with the apartheid, ultranationalism, jingoism, and the abridging of bourgeois rights, makes Israel look like it has certain fascist tendencies. That is, there are several similarities.


I don't think that's true at all. Fascism is a counterrevolutionary ideology, not an economic system. Fascism in power is simply the highest dictatorship of finance capital. This can also be acheived through bonapartism or bourgeois democracy.

I never claimed that fascism was an independent mode of production. Fascism is a way of organizing capitalist production around petty bourgeois interests. It does, however, manifest differences on the level of the base and especially in the superstructure.

[SouthernBelle82]

So when Israel's government bulldozes houses with people STILL INSIDE that doesn't count?


Is that a serious question, or arev you really that ignorant?! Maybe the industrial termination of 6 million poeple out of ideological insanity will give you the hint on where the difference is? Another thing you keep ignoring is that Israel is a bourgeois democracy like any other, except it's racist treatment of the Palestinians, which makes it close to South Africa during apartheid, but not to Nazi Germany. It's not remotely comparable to Nazi Germany or fascism.

[Edelweiss]

So when Israel's government bulldozes houses with people STILL INSIDE that doesn't count?

Count as another holocaust? I'm afraid not...:rolleyes:

Learn how to quote properly BTW, like everyone else here does, with the quote above the reply.

[Zurdito]

I never claimed that fascism was an independent mode of production. Fascism is a way of organizing capitalist production around petty bourgeois interests. It does, however, manifest differences on the level of the base and especially in the superstructure.

Fascism is a demagogic ideology, it appeals to petty-bourgeois resentment to get into power. Once in power it doesn't necessarilly respect petty-bourgeois interests any more than any other bourgeois government.

[SouthernBelle82]

Hon that's just one example of what is going on there. You are aware of the recent decision made by Israel's government to kick out all Asians right? I guess that doesn't come close either. Or how about their invasion and murder of the people of Lebanon? They murdered moderate Muslim's and Christian's who had NOTHING to do with anything going on there and their only crime was existing. And hon no. I'm not going to do anything "correctly." Just because I do something differently doesn't mean it isn't correct. Is there a rule that I have to? Unless there's a rule in the TOS than keep that shit to yourself.


Count as another holocaust? I'm afraid not...:rolleyes:

Learn how to quote properly BTW, like everyone else here does, with the quote above the reply.

[bcbm]

I do not believe there are degrees when it comes to racial supremacy and state organized repression and genocide.

Of course there are, to say otherwise is not a materialist position. This doesn't mean they need to be opposed in varying degrees, but if we're discussing specific political terms and systems in relation to wildly different states, than yes, it is important to qualify them and look at the different "degrees" and specifics of each.


It is quite simply evil in its purest form.

Evil is a relative, moralistic term with no meaning in determining whether or not something is fascist, or comparing the policies of one state to another.


I understand that not everyone in Israel approves of the treatment of Palestinians, but not everyone in Germany was a Nazi either.

You're taking minor things and blowing them up as if they represent something more. The differences between Nazi Germany and Israel are far more extensive than not everyone approving. There are differences in economics, political structure, the nature of resistance to the dominant ideology, racist policies, how those policies are enacted, final aims of the state, and many more.


We have a moral obligation to stop oppression and genocide.

No, there is no "moral" obligation to do anything. That is, of course, not to say we shouldn't try to end those things, but it has nothing to do with morality. Its a question of class solidarity.


Israeli citizens which do not actively attempt to stop their goverment's maltreatment of the Palestinians are just as morally culpable as those ordinary non-Nazi Germans who stood by silently in the face of anti-Jewish policies.

Its easy to judge when it isn't you and your family who will be sent to a concentration camp or worse for speaking out, isn't it? Yes, of course "bad things happen because good people stand by and do nothing," but it isn't always that simple.


To consider any holocaust or genocide more evil than any other is to give it's victims a greater moral worth than other victims. This is something we cannot do.

It has nothing to do with considering anything more "evil." This is a discussion about using a specific term to describe a state and, more generally, about the social and political policies of that state as compared to others which could be accurately described as "fascist."


Oppression must be fought with equal force wherever and to whomever it occurs.

Should we devote the same energy and force to school students being denied the right to sit during the national anthem as to ethnic genocide?


I just found this article from the Jerusalem Post when I was Googling this topic. The link between Israel and the Nazis is closer than many often imagine.


Yes, the Nazis and Zionists of the period did have some collaboration, for obvious reasons: they had overlapping goals. This doesn't make Zionists Nazis.

[Dros]

Fascism is a demagogic ideology, it appeals to petty-bourgeois resentment to get into power. Once in power it doesn't necessarilly respect petty-bourgeois interests any more than any other bourgeois government.

I suppose that is true. If I implied otherwise, I was mistaken. You have expressed more clearly in your last post what I was attempting to say.

That said, it often does respect petty bourgeois interests. The kind of development of the means of production that occurs under fascism is appealing to the petty bourgeois class.

[proleterian fist]

Zionism is another edition of fascism in my opinion.
I think if there is superiority of any race to another ones,this means nothing but fascism;)

[chegitz guevara]

Zionism is just a Israeli nationalism. It is no more fascist than Palestinian nationalism. That said, there are certainly fascist elements within both movements.

Is Israel brutal, yes. But fascism isn't defined by its brutality, or all states would be fascist, and the term would lose all meaning. The USSR was far more brutal than Fascist Italy, but we don't call Stalin and the USSR fascist. Fascism shares certain outward forms with many movements and ideologies. Both the Fascists and the Nazis had radical anti-capitalist ideology. So do we. Does that make us fascists? No.

What defines fascism is not what it says or even the repression it creates, but the class from which it arises (the middle class), under which conditions (capitalist decay), and in whose interests (finance capital and heavy industry). Zionism shares none of this with fascism. To call Zionism fascism is to hold a fundamental misunderstanding of what fascism is.

As for using words like fascistic, it reminds me of the joke, I'm not a Jew, I'm just a little Jew-ish.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I suppose that is true. If I implied otherwise, I was mistaken. You have expressed more clearly in your last post what I was attempting to say.

That said, it often does respect petty bourgeois interests. The kind of development of the means of production that occurs under fascism is appealing to the petty bourgeois class.

CN and I said once before on fascism that fascism respects ONLY petit-bourgeois interests. More often than not, the bourgeoisie who provide the big $$$ get backstabbed in some economic fashion.

[Invader Zim]

Any highly nationalistic ideology has parallels with fascism, because at the core of fascism is nationalism. However to ignore the rest of fascisms decidedly strange and contradictory ideology and brand any nationalistic ideology as fascism is plain ridiculous.


Hon that's just one example of what is going on there. You are aware of the recent decision made by Israel's government to kick out all Asians right? I guess that doesn't come close either. Or how about their invasion and murder of the people of Lebanon? They murdered moderate Muslim's and Christian's who had NOTHING to do with anything going on there and their only crime was existing. And hon no. I'm not going to do anything "correctly." Just because I do something differently doesn't mean it isn't correct. Is there a rule that I have to? Unless there's a rule in the TOS than keep that shit to yourself.

I have a suggestion for you, why don't you go and visit a library and read up on the holocaust because your ignorance is truly staggering. You do realise that prior to the onset of the final solution there were numerous plans of ever increasing barbarity employed by the Nazi regime prior to the employment of genocide. The holocaust is defined by its employment of industrial genocide; Israel has not committed a genocide, thus claiming that Israel has committed an act comparable to the holocaust is utterly moronic - it is also the tactic of neo-nazis.

Oh and Malte owns this board he doesn't have to keep anything to himself here.

[SouthernBelle82]

Keep your shit to yourself. You know NOTHING about me and my education and what I have and haven't read. I've studied WWII for years reading up on whatever I could on WWII. I had two great uncles who died fighting the Nazi's so that's where my interest first came from (they died at sea). And speaking of the holocaust why don't we ever hear from Hitler's other victims? He hated more than the Jewish population you know. What about gays? Women? Gypsy's? I suggest you do your own research on Israel and Palestine. There's so much going on there right now you obviously have no clue. Go and do your own research on the ordeal going on there with the Palestinian people in an illegal occupation. The fact you can defend Israel's government and what they're doing is disgusting. You can own the world but I'm going to still tell you to keep your shit to yourself. Oh and apparently I didn't break any TOS rule since I'm still here. Oh and you saying I'm using tacticts of Neo-Nazi's is disgusting and you owe me a damn apology. I don't see you saying that shit to anyone else here who is saying similar or the same thing(s). You owe me an apology with your propaganda shit.


Any highly nationalistic ideology has parallels with fascism, because at the core of fascism is nationalism. However to ignore the rest of fascisms decidedly strange and contradictory ideology and brand any nationalistic ideology as fascism is plain ridiculous.



I have a suggestion for you, why don't you go and visit a library and read up on the holocaust because your ignorance is truly staggering. You do realise that prior to the onset of the final solution there were numerous plans of ever increasing barbarity employed by the Nazi regime prior to the employment of genocide. The holocaust is defined by its employment of industrial genocide; Israel has not committed a genocide, thus claiming that Israel has committed an act comparable to the holocaust is utterly moronic - it is also the tactic of neo-nazis.

Oh and Malte owns this board he doesn't have to keep anything to himself here.

[BuyOurEverything]

And speaking of the holocaust why don't we ever hear from Hitler's other victims? He hated more than the Jewish population you know.

We do.


What about gays? Women? Gypsy's?

You can hardly compare the Nazis' policy towards women to their policy towards Jews, Roma, and gay people.


The fact you can defend Israel's government and what they're doing is disgusting.

Nobody's defending the Israeli occupation of Palestine. We're simply saying that it does not constitute another Holocaust, just as Zionism does not constitute fascism, although some Zionists, notably Betar, are obviously fascists.


Oh and apparently I didn't break any TOS rule since I'm still here.

It's not a Terms of Service rule, it's just irritating.


Oh and you saying I'm using tacticts of Neo-Nazi's is disgusting and you owe me a damn apology.

It's true though, it is a common tactic.


I don't see you saying that shit to anyone else here who is saying similar or the same thing(s).

That's because he was replying directly to your post. The same would obviously be true no matter who says it. That doesn't mean that you are Nazis, of course. That would (ironically) be falling into the same trap. It is, nonetheless, an important point to note.

[SouthernBelle82]

Oh yes I can. Women were just as tortured as the others especially those who disagreed with the Nazi's and were forced to give birth and raise their children with Nazi propaganda shit.

I'm saying holocaust with a small "h." Not a large H. Here's the definition I'm using from dictionary.com :
hol·o·caust http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fholocaust) /ˈhɒlhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəˌkɔst, ˈhoʊhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnglə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire. 2.a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering. 3.(usually initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the). 4.any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.

Now tell me with a straight face that isn't going on with the Palestinian people and Israel's government with respects to number one and four.

And you still owe me an apology with your own Nazi shit bull. I'll be waiting for my apology. And my last point still stands. What about the original author? I don't see you saying that shit towards them now do I? Nope.


We do.



You can hardly compare the Nazis' policy towards women to their policy towards Jews, Roma, and gay people.



Nobody's defending the Israeli occupation of Palestine. We're simply saying that it does not constitute another Holocaust, just as Zionism does not constitute fascism, although some Zionists, notably Betar, are obviously fascists.



It's not a Terms of Service rule, it's just irritating.



It's true though, it is a common tactic.



That's because he was replying directly to your post. The same would obviously be true no matter who says it. That doesn't mean that you are Nazis, of course. That would (ironically) be falling into the same trap. It is, nonetheless, an important point to note.

[BanderaRoja]

This was a very good thread to read. Do I think that Israel is fascist? No, it does not seem to have the economic structures most commonly associated with fascism. Is it currently one of (if not *the*) most brutal colonial occupiers in the world? Yes. Fascism does not have an exclusive hold on oppression. During the 1960s the US seemed to move towards domestic liberalization of society, yet at the same time it was torching Southeast Asia and gunning down Vietnamese, Laotian and Cambodian peasants. So it shouldn't be surprising that while Israel may have a fairly open, free-market domestic economy it still has managed to turn Gaza into the world's biggest prison. I will add that fascistic tendencies *are* strong in Israeli politics. Betar's ideals and policies are not far at all from those advocated by Likud or Kadima political parties. Some other notes I took while reading this:

1. Bobkindles, I would argue that Israel has been in a state of prolongued crisis. From the date of its founding it has been engaged in non-stop colonial war. It also politically had to immediately turn to imperialist support to justify its existence diplomatically. I think what prevents Israel from having to mov towards fascism is that it is a US client state. The generous aid from the US allows the funding of a massive military complex (relative to the territorial size/population of the country) in Israel without the state having to move towards harsher economic measures such as nationalization. If US aid drops off or the war intesifies to a greater degree I think Israel will move towards fascism with extreme speed.

2. Malte, you are right, Zionism is heterogenous. Then again, so was Nazism: there were strains of National Socialism that centered around religion or traditional morality, as well as around the concerns of chauvinist middle-class and worker Germans (Strasserism) that I would compare to Labor Zionism. That isn't to say that Nazism and Zionism have menaced the world to the same extent: Zionism hasn't conducted a systematic genocide like the Holocaust. Nonetheless, identifying similar features in the two is important in determining the nature of fascism and the threat it poses.

3. FourthInternational, kibbutzism has never been Marxist. It has always seen itself as a series of communal enterprises within a capitalist market. Today the kibbutz are all even more commercialized than they were a few decades ago. It is further evidence that communalism or syndicalism won't work without a revolutionary change in all of society. I, for one, consider myself a Marxist and do not see the kibbutz as being "pure Marxist".

4. In regards to the origins of Israel, I think what is important is the question of imperialism. Zionism's origins do owe much to the Holocaust (I'm fairly certain Zionism had been around for some time before, but the Holocaust certainly propelled its popularization). For a time Zionism may have been progressive in that it was anti-imperialist. Certainly when Eastern European Jews rebelled and fought against Nazi armies it was a progressive move that served as internationalist aid to all the oppressed peoples being conquered by the Germans. That isnt to say all of these fighters were Zionist, many were communist Partisans, but a Jewish nationalist identity did play a role. However, two important developments led to the Zionists becoming oppressors and exploiters. First of all, they decided to establish a state by invading and occupying Palestine, which immediately made them colonialists. Second of all, they turned to the imperialist powers to prop them up and fashioned a trade: Israel gets arms and money from the US, and in return pacifies and dominates the Arabs in the region for the imperialists who control resources in the region.

Long live Palestine!

[Intelligitimate]

Looks like the rumors of Malte being a crypto-Zionist are true.

[Dros]

CN and I said once before on fascism that fascism respects ONLY petit-bourgeois interests. More often than not, the bourgeoisie who provide the big $$$ get backstabbed in some economic fashion.

I don't see that as being true. The Third Reich for instance was very kind to the Bourgeoisie.

[Invader Zim]

Keep your shit to yourself. You know NOTHING about me and my education and what I have and haven't read. I've studied WWII for years reading up on whatever I could on WWII. I had two great uncles who died fighting the Nazi's so that's where my interest first came from (they died at sea). And speaking of the holocaust why don't we ever hear from Hitler's other victims? He hated more than the Jewish population you know. What about gays? Women? Gypsy's? I suggest you do your own research on Israel and Palestine. There's so much going on there right now you obviously have no clue. Go and do your own research on the ordeal going on there with the Palestinian people in an illegal occupation. The fact you can defend Israel's government and what they're doing is disgusting. You can own the world but I'm going to still tell you to keep your shit to yourself. Oh and apparently I didn't break any TOS rule since I'm still here. Oh and you saying I'm using tacticts of Neo-Nazi's is disgusting and you owe me a damn apology. I don't see you saying that shit to anyone else here who is saying similar or the same thing(s). You owe me an apology with your propaganda shit.


You know NOTHING about me and my education and what I have and haven't read.You are absolutely correct: I know nothing of you or your background; all I have to go on are your posts, and if they are shit and ahistoric then I treat you as such.


I've studied WWII for years reading up on whatever I could on WWII.Then you obviously were not paying attention.


I had two great uncles who died fighting the Nazi's so that's where my interest first came from (they died at sea).Everyone has family members who died in the Second World War, your vague family connections has nothing to do with your ahistoric opinions.


And speaking of the holocaust why don't we ever hear from Hitler's other victims? We do, but like in other areas you apparently dont pay attention.


He hated more than the Jewish population you know.Yes, I do kow. Near certainly far more than you.


I suggest you do your own research on Israel and Palestine. There's so much going on there right now you obviously have no clue.The fact that you compare the Nazi holocuast to the actions of israel is more than proof my research exceeds yours by a vast degree. Indeed it is clear that your reading of either issue extends no further than the most basic of secondry sources.


The fact you can defend Israel's government and what they're doing is disgusting.

I don't defend Israel's government; stop constructing obvious strawman arguments and downright lies.


nd what they're doing is disgusting. You can own the world but I'm going to still tell you to keep your shit to yourself. Oh and apparently I didn't break any TOS rule since I'm still here. Oh and you saying I'm using tacticts of Neo-Nazi's is disgusting and you owe me a damn apology.

You owe every victime of the Nazi regime and Israeli regime an apology for trivialising their deaths with your blatant fucking lies.

[SouthernBelle82]

Take your holier than thou bullshit to someone else. It doesn't work on me. LOL! The fact you are ignoring there is a holocaust (small "h") going on in Palestine than why should I take you seriously at all? Do you even have a damn clue what's going on there? Obviously not because you're still defending Israel and their government and what they do to people. Everything they're doing reeks of fascism. There is nothing different going on with them and Nazi Germany. The Israeli government in fact is even open about their murders whether it's in Palestine or Lebanon. Tell me again why did they murder innocent moderate Christian's and Muslim's who had nothing to do with anything and never did anything to Israel? Fucking lies? Hmm you might want to go to Gaza and talk to the people who go through their shit every damn day and the mothers who had their babies MURDERED STILL A LIVE in their home by the Israeli government who didn't allow them to go and get their babies. And you say you aren't defending Israel! HA! Talk about ahistoric bullshit!


You are absolutely correct: I know nothing of you or your background; all I have to go on are your posts, and if they are shit and ahistoric then I treat you as such.

Then you obviously were not paying attention.

Everyone has family members who died in the Second World War, your vague family connections has nothing to do with your ahistoric opinions.

We do, but like in other areas you apparently dont pay attention.

Yes, I do kow. Near certainly far more than you.

The fact that you compare the Nazi holocuast to the actions of israel is more than proof my research exceeds yours by a vast degree. Indeed it is clear that your reading of either issue extends no further than the most basic of secondry sources.



I don't defend Israel's government; stop constructing obvious strawman arguments and downright lies.



You owe every victime of the Nazi regime and Israeli regime an apology for trivialising their deaths with your blatant fucking lies.

[Invader Zim]

Take your holier than thou bullshit to someone else.

When you clue up.


The fact you are ignoring there is a holocaust (small "h") going on in Palestine than why should I take you seriously at all?

Because it isnn't and that you claim it is clear evidence you have no fucking idea what the holocaust was.


Do you even have a damn clue what's going on there?

Yes and it is not the holocaust.


Obviously not because you're still defending Israel and their government and what they do to people.

Stop lying, I realise that you cannot justify your contention that a holocaust is occuring in Israel; but pointing out your inept grasp of history and current events does not equate support for the actions of the Israeli government.


There is nothing different going on with them and Nazi Germany.

What, other than industrialised mass murder, plans to relocate an entire ethnic group to Madagascar, forcing those of seperate ethnic groups to wear demeaning badges, etc?


Tell me again why did they murder innocent moderate Christian's and Muslim's who had nothing to do with anything and never did anything to Israel? Fucking lies? Hmm you might want to go to Gaza and talk to the people who go through their shit every damn day and the mothers who had their babies MURDERED STILL A LIVE in their home by the Israeli government who didn't allow them to go and get their babies. And you say you aren't defending Israel! HA! Talk about ahistoric bullshit!

That is not anything like the holocaust, I suggest you go to school where you belong; thirteen year old children have a better grasp of European history than you do.

[Awful Reality]

If I may respond in his (or her) favor, Invader Zim.

The term "holocaust" is not synonymous with "The Holocaust." One cannot claim that the proportions, tactics, or ideology of The Holocaust are being employed in Palestine, but a "holocaust," which literally means "completely burnt," one can argue, is going on.

When hundreds of children die monthly, when innocent workers are gunned down in the streets on the paranoid assumption that they wish to commit these crimes, something is wrong. And therein lies the claim that this is a "holocaust," as it is a small-scale genocide. The claim that this is on the scale of The Holocaust is ludicrous, the claim that this is comparable to The Holocaust is ludicrous, but remember that the term "Holocaust" existed long before 1932, and nobody is claiming that this has anything to do with "The Holocaust."

[Invader Zim]

The term "holocaust" is not synonymous with "The Holocaust."

Of course it is. Your argument is actually the exact same one employed by David Irving in his defence.


but a "holocaust," which literally means "completely burnt," one can argue, is going on.

If one is a neo-nazi perhaps. As Richard Evans, one of the historians most influencial in the defence of Lipstadt when she was being sued by Irving, said: -

"The meaning of the term 'Holocaust' might have been metaphorical rather than literal; common usage made what it referred to abundently clear."

Richard J. Evans, Telling Lies About Hitler: the Holocaust, History and the David Irving Trial, (London, 2002), p. 113.

The term holocaust, though its etymology of the term 'holocaust' shows that the term has origions that pre-date 1941, it now is clearly synonamous with industrial genocide and the extermination of European jews. To claim that a 'holocaust' is occuring in Israel is to fundermentally trivialise the actual Holocaust and to erode the image of what the Holocaust was. It is the tactic of neo-Nazis, white supremacists and holocaust deniers akin to David Irving, and should have no place on a board such as this.

To quote Irving: -

"[It is] invidious to single out one single act of mass murder of innocents and to label it "The Holocaust", as though there was none other,"

Irving, 'Reply to Defence of Second Defendant', p. 11.

In short your argument is basically Irvings and various other fascists seeking to downplay one of the most brutal acts in the history of humanity.

[Lector Malibu]

I'm not gonna say that the way the Palestinians are suffering and being oppressed is an exact carbon copy of what Nazi Germany did. Though I'm not gonna deny that there are similarities and alot to boot. To the point that yes Israel is not Nazi Germany but I have no problem referring to them in that manner because what they are doing is similar enough. I don't hold these views to minimize or take away from the victims of the actual Holocaust , I'm not anti-semitic in any way or a man of ignorance. Like I said the other day the IDF isn't using Zyclone B or anything horrible like that. What they are doing though is horrible enough though and I really don't know where people get off suggesting else wise. Like the Nazi's plowed into Poland and set up shop the IDF has done the same thing. They have been in violation of a request to leave since 1967 (UN242 ) period!

The Holocaust was a sickening event and so wasn't apartheid , the conquest and genocide of the indigenous peoples from what we now call America, or the persecution of the early Irish who came to America, or the plight of the African Americans ect. The point I'm trying to make is it's all bad period. What is sad is that just because Hitlers Holocaust was done differently , it's almost like none of the other victims suffering and plight matters as much or is worthy as being referred to as a holocaust. Suffering is suffering period. Yet people wanna sit around and say "well it wasn't as bad as.." Give me a break!

[bcbm]

The fact you are ignoring there is a holocaust (small "h") going on in Palestine than why should I take you seriously at all?

Your use of the term "holocaust" to describe the events in Palestine is not the simple usage of a term based on its definition. You're clearly using the term because of its association with Nazism and Jews. As I mentioned in another thread, this is a vulgar attempt at political leverage and Invader Zim is spot on in calling you out on it, because it very clearly lowers the status of the Holocaust.

I'm also a bit disturbed by your earlier comment about people here knowing about the other victims of the Holocaust (you forgot to mention the nearly 5 million Poles executed when rattling off victims). It reminds me of people complaining about "all the focus on the Jews" in regards to the Holocaust, due to their being as many other victims. I don't think you'll find anyone downplaying the others murdered, but I think its ahistorical to deny that Jews were singled out above all other groups as a special scourge on Germany.


Do you even have a damn clue what's going on there? Obviously not because you're still defending Israel and their government and what they do to people.

Nobody here is defending Israel or its actions, they're arguing against the use of the term "fascist" to describe that nation-state and its political and economic structures, as well as use of the term "holocaust" to describe what is being done to the Palestinians. And before you can accuse me of not having a clue, I've been doing active Palestinian solidarity work for years, including work on a time consuming divestment campaign. I know my shit, thanks.


Everything they're doing reeks of fascism. There is nothing different going on with them and Nazi Germany.

This is a completely ahistorical perspective that cannot be defended through objective facts. For one, who is "they" when you're talking about Israel? Israel is a democratic state with a variety of individuals and groups with many interests having power in the government and a say over what actions the state takes. Perhaps specifics groups have fascist tendencies, but not the apparatus as a whole- that's been proven extensively here. There's one major qualitative difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. Plenty of others have been laid out elsewhere in this thread and you have yet to address them from what I've seen. Shrill hysterics and emotional pleas (the rest of your post) are not an argument.

-----------------


When hundreds of children die monthly, when innocent workers are gunned down in the streets on the paranoid assumption that they wish to commit these crimes, something is wrong. And therein lies the claim that this is a "holocaust," as it is a small-scale genocide.

Is there a holocaust going on in the inner-cities of the United States then?


nobody is claiming that this has anything to do with "The Holocaust."

That Jews are involved in this instance and the lack of the term being brought out in relation to other acts of genocide (I've never seen it in several years on these boards, that I can recall) is mere coincidence I'm sure.

[Awful Reality]

Is there a holocaust going on in the inner-cities of the United States then?

That Jews are involved in this instance and the lack of the term being brought out in relation to other acts of genocide (I've never seen it in several years on these boards, that I can recall) is mere coincidence I'm sure.

No, there is not. I meant hundreds of children murdered by the state, and other than that I see no correlation.

You are right; the only reason people are afraid to say "holocaust" in this instance is because It involves Jews. I'm a Jew, and I'm not afraid to label it "holocaust."

[chegitz guevara]

remember that the term "Holocaust" existed long before 1932, and nobody is claiming that this has anything to do with "The Holocaust."

A holocaust is firestorm. The Chicago Fire was a holocaust. The California wild fires are holocausts.

The term holocaust was applied to what the Nazis did because they disposed of millions of bodies in ovens. It was a huge fire. Recently (past few decades), the term holocaust has been widened to mean any mass murder on a national scale.

I think this trivializes what was unique about the Holocaust: industrial, methodical, mass murder. There's something more horrific about how the Nazis carried out their genocides. It was soulless, passionless. Mass murder was an assembly line. To compare what Israel does in the territories to what the Nazis did at Dachau or Treblinka or Baba Yar is morally repugnant.

Frankly, the reasons the Israelis are having so much trouble with the Palestinians is because they are not acting like the Nazis. The occupation may be brutal, but the truth is, the Israelis are acting with restraint. Historically, any occupier faced with what the Israelis face, would have reacted, far, far more brutally, much like they acted during the War of Independence, massacring whole villages, driving a city in to the sea, sending a city on a death march, etc. If they really wanted to pacify the Palestinians, they'd start murdering by the tens of thousands until the Palestinians learned that they could either submit or be exterminated. Which in no way excuses what the Israelis are doing now. But anyone with any brain can see the difference between policy of industrial, methodical genocide and a brutal, thuggish occupation.

[Invader Zim]

You are right; the only reason people are afraid to say "holocaust" in this instance is because It involves Jews. I'm a Jew, and I'm not afraid to label it "holocaust."

Wrong, the reason people do not label a non-genocidal occupation a 'holocaust' is because they actually appriciate what the Holocaust was and why it is totally different from what chegitz guevara described above as "a brutal, thuggish occupation".

To be blunt, if you compare the Israeli occupation of Palestine to the holocaust you are paying an active disservice to the victims of the Holocaust, and any other genocide for that matter, by trivialising their deaths in order to generate political capital against the Israeli state.

[SouthernBelle82]

No hon I'm not. Don't speak for me. Speak for your damn self. I'm using the term holocaust with a small h. I posted definitions from the dictionary and told which ones specifically I was using. The terms I was using on the previous page is correct. If I wanted to do what you're claiming I would capitalize the word holocaust. Have I done that in any of this discussion? No.

And no where hon did I claim the Jews were only singled out. I only said how it's frustrating and interesting that we never hear the stories about the other victims of Hitler. Go out in the streets here in the States and ask a 1,000 people in a survey the following question: do they have any idea what Paragraph 175 is. See how many people say "yes." To my knowledge at this point in time I can only think of one documentary out of all the stories out there where it focuses on another group that Hitler attacked and that's the gays and lesbians and the movie called "Paragraph 175" which is about how Hitler made homosexuality a crime. About Poland even George Bush knows about Poland.

Apparently you don't know your shit enough to know a simple definition even from the dictionary. From dictionary.com once again:

hol·o·caust http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fholocaust) /ˈhɒlhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəˌkɔst, ˈhoʊhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnglə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire. 2.a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering. 3.(usually initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the). 4.any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
[Origin: 1200–50; ME < LL holocaustum (Vulgate) < Gk hol&#243;kauston (Septuagint), neut. of hol&#243;kaustos burnt whole. See holo- (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=holo-), caustic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=caustic)http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]

—Related formshol&#183;o&#183;caus&#183;tal, adjective
hol&#183;o&#183;caus&#183;tic, adjective

—Synonyms 1. inferno, conflagration, ruin, havoc, ravage.

I've told you time and time again who this "they" is. Israel's government. Don't just read where you can jump up and down and pound your chest. Read everything I say. I've from the first post in this thread have always said Israel's government. They are even open about their murders (see their last attack of Lebanon).

On your question of the United States according to the definition yes in their own way. They are being ignored and pushed out etc. for big business. Here in my town not too long ago there was a whole neighborhood of poorer people who were pushed out for big business. The U.S. has also been involved in plenty of murders over the last few years the most recent being in Iraq and Afghanistan and they approved and encouraged Israel's government to attack Lebanon. Oh and with the U.S. need I to remind you about Katrina and New Orleans? See definition four.






Your use of the term "holocaust" to describe the events in Palestine is not the simple usage of a term based on its definition. You're clearly using the term because of its association with Nazism and Jews. As I mentioned in another thread, this is a vulgar attempt at political leverage and Invader Zim is spot on in calling you out on it, because it very clearly lowers the status of the Holocaust.

I'm also a bit disturbed by your earlier comment about people here knowing about the other victims of the Holocaust (you forgot to mention the nearly 5 million Poles executed when rattling off victims). It reminds me of people complaining about "all the focus on the Jews" in regards to the Holocaust, due to their being as many other victims. I don't think you'll find anyone downplaying the others murdered, but I think its ahistorical to deny that Jews were singled out above all other groups as a special scourge on Germany.



Nobody here is defending Israel or its actions, they're arguing against the use of the term "fascist" to describe that nation-state and its political and economic structures, as well as use of the term "holocaust" to describe what is being done to the Palestinians. And before you can accuse me of not having a clue, I've been doing active Palestinian solidarity work for years, including work on a time consuming divestment campaign. I know my shit, thanks.



This is a completely ahistorical perspective that cannot be defended through objective facts. For one, who is "they" when you're talking about Israel? Israel is a democratic state with a variety of individuals and groups with many interests having power in the government and a say over what actions the state takes. Perhaps specifics groups have fascist tendencies, but not the apparatus as a whole- that's been proven extensively here. There's one major qualitative difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. Plenty of others have been laid out elsewhere in this thread and you have yet to address them from what I've seen. Shrill hysterics and emotional pleas (the rest of your post) are not an argument.

-----------------



Is there a holocaust going on in the inner-cities of the United States then?



That Jews are involved in this instance and the lack of the term being brought out in relation to other acts of genocide (I've never seen it in several years on these boards, that I can recall) is mere coincidence I'm sure.

[SouthernBelle82]

So tell that to a mother who lost her baby in her home because Israel's government bulldozed the baby a live and wouldn't let her go get it. There's plenty of this type of shit going on. Oh and what about the Asians living in Israel who they're kicking out now because they aren't Jewish? :rolleyes:
Why is it that it's okay for Israel to have a 100&#37; pure Jewish state but God forbid if the Palestinians want it or Iran or whomever else (their own "pure" state).

And what Israel is doing is an illegal and brutal occupation. Even the U.N. has told them to get the fuck out of Gaza but they haven't. They are there illegally. But I guess rules only apply to certain people now days. :rolleyes:


A holocaust is firestorm. The Chicago Fire was a holocaust. The California wild fires are holocausts.

The term holocaust was applied to what the Nazis did because they disposed of millions of bodies in ovens. It was a huge fire. Recently (past few decades), the term holocaust has been widened to mean any mass murder on a national scale.

I think this trivializes what was unique about the Holocaust: industrial, methodical, mass murder. There's something more horrific about how the Nazis carried out their genocides. It was soulless, passionless. Mass murder was an assembly line. To compare what Israel does in the territories to what the Nazis did at Dachau or Treblinka or Baba Yar is morally repugnant.

Frankly, the reasons the Israelis are having so much trouble with the Palestinians is because they are not acting like the Nazis. The occupation may be brutal, but the truth is, the Israelis are acting with restraint. Historically, any occupier faced with what the Israelis face, would have reacted, far, far more brutally, much like they acted during the War of Independence, massacring whole villages, driving a city in to the sea, sending a city on a death march, etc. If they really wanted to pacify the Palestinians, they'd start murdering by the tens of thousands until the Palestinians learned that they could either submit or be exterminated. Which in no way excuses what the Israelis are doing now. But anyone with any brain can see the difference between policy of industrial, methodical genocide and a brutal, thuggish occupation.

[SouthernBelle82]

To your blunt shit I guess it's easy for you to say since you aren't going through that. Neither am I but I'm not getting holier than thou. I would love for you to go and live in Palestine and still say the same shit you are afterwards.


Wrong, the reason people do not label a non-genocidal occupation a 'holocaust' is because they actually appriciate what the Holocaust was and why it is totally different from what chegitz guevara described above as "a brutal, thuggish occupation".

To be blunt, if you compare the Israeli occupation of Palestine to the holocaust you are paying an active disservice to the victims of the Holocaust, and any other genocide for that matter, by trivialising their deaths in order to generate political capital against the Israeli state.

[Invader Zim]

Neither am I but I'm not getting holier than thou.

No you are being fucking ignorant, employing the tactics of neo-nazis' and down playing the suffering involved in the Holocust.


I would love for you to go and live in Palestine and still say the same shit you are afterwards.

I wouldn't like you to have lived under the nazi regime, largely because if you did live under such a regime you would have been one of the first victims of an actual genocide and would be incapable of saying anything.

[chegitz guevara]

To be honest, I have little hope that you'll gain any understanding. You've already made up your mind on the issue. Further discussion is pointless. But, I have a few minutes to waste, so what the hay.


So tell that to a mother who lost her baby in her home because Israel's government bulldozed the baby a live and wouldn't let her go get it. There's plenty of this type of shit going on.

Appeals to emotion, i.e., the mother who loses her baby because of X, is not a valid form of argumentation. It is an attempt to gain sympathy for your argument, after all, who could not be opposed to babies being squished. Of course, the difference between Israel and the Nazis would be that the Nazis would gather all the babies and put them in the house before bulldozing it.


Oh and what about the Asians living in Israel who they're kicking out now because they aren't Jewish? :rolleyes:
Why is it that it's okay for Israel to have a 100&#37; pure Jewish state but God forbid if the Palestinians want it or Iran or whomever else (their own "pure" state).You are engaging in a strawman debate here. Again, it is an invalid argument. Who here has said that it is okay for Israel to have a 100% Jewish state? No one. No one has denied that Israel is doing evil things. So stop attacking us for doing so.


And what Israel is doing is an illegal and brutal occupation.That's what I said. As I also said, brutal, thuggish, and illegal does not equal holocaust.


Even the U.N. has told them to get the fuck out of Gaza but they haven't. They are there illegally.This is an appeal to authority. This is another invalid argument.


But I guess rules only apply to certain people now days. :rolleyes:This is another strawman argument.

So the sum total of the valid statements you engaged in here was a restatement of what I had already said. You, however, fail to prove your premise that the Israeli occupation equals a holocaust. Instead of vague arguments, "teh evil Jewes killed teh babes!!1!!1111!," you might want to try cited facts, numbers, dates, places, and valid rational arguments.

Since you're talking about the occupation, you have to limit yourself to post-1967. This leaves out events such as Dier Yassin, Kibya, Jedah, Liddah, etc. To prove your case, you need to show a campaign of genocide. You need to show where the Israelis have carried out a systematic effort to exterminate the Palestinian people since 1967.

[SouthernBelle82]

Oh get fucking real and grow the fuck up Zim. No where am I downplaying the Holocaust. I'm not even talking about the Holocaust but I'm talking about what is going on NOW IN THE FUCKING PRESENT! Either have a mature fucking discussion about it or not. You are behaving like an immature prick with your Neonazi bullshit crap and you don't deserve to be taken seriously. Get the fuck off it.

Ah so now you're a time traveler. You have no idea about that. Knowing me I would've either fought them via WRS. Of course it's easy to say since it didn't happen. I like to live in reality. Maybe you should try it with your holier than thou shit. Funny how you haven't addressed my definitions but yet ignored them all together. Go fucking figure.


No you are being fucking ignorant, employing the tactics of neo-nazis' and down playing the suffering involved in the Holocust.



I wouldn't like you to have lived under the nazi regime, largely because if you did live under such a regime you would have been one of the first victims of an actual genocide and would be incapable of saying anything.

[chegitz guevara]

Apparently you don't know your shit enough to know a simple definition even from the dictionary. From dictionary.com once again:

hol·o·caust /ˈhɒləˌkɔst, ˈhoʊlə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire. 2.a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering. 3.(usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the). 4.any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
[Origin: 1200–50; ME < LL holocaustum (Vulgate) < Gk holókauston (Septuagint), neut. of holókaustos burnt whole. See holo-, caustic]

—Related formshol·o·caus·tal, adjective
hol·o·caus·tic, adjective

No communist worth his or her salt refers to a dictionary to discuss complex social and historical phenomenon. This shows the total bankruptcy of your position.

[chegitz guevara]

Oh get fucking real and grow the fuck up Zim. No where am I downplaying the Holocaust. I'm not even talking about the Holocaust but I'm talking about what is going on NOW IN THE FUCKING PRESENT! Either have a mature fucking discussion about it or not. You are behaving like an immature prick with your Neonazi bullshit crap and you don't deserve to be taken seriously. Get the fuck off it.

Might I suggest you take your own advice. You're now engaging in ad hominem attacks, another invalid form of argumentation. Instead of dealing rationally and factually with Zim's arguements, you're swearing at him at and cursing.

[SouthernBelle82]

I'm never going to be understanding about ANY oppressive regime that is killing innocent people who's only fucking crime IS LIVING! What's the phrase that is said with the Jewish people? "Never forget"? Well seems like a damn good number of them have forgotten and are doing it their damn selves. Thankfully people in general are waking up from rightwing religious bullshit whether it's Judaism, Islam or Christianity.

Uhm hon the baby was already there. The government didn't allow the mother to go get her child. And I don't give a fuck what you think about the argument. IT'S REALITY! TRY IT! Why are you making fucking excuses? Hey ZIM HERE'S YOUR FUCKING DOWN PLAY RIGHT HERE!

See definition one and four from the dictionary.

I guess definitions doesn't equal facts in this so-called debate. :rolleyes:

Gee how about since they've been in Israel? Again why is it okay for them to have a 100% "pure" race state but when someone else tries it they're crucified etc? As I said earlier rules are only applied to certain people. Here are some facts, figures etc for you but I don't expect you to read them since you're so busy defending Israel's government.

Links: http://www.aztlan.net/holocoust.htm

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Beauty/palestine_holocaust.htm

http://www.rense.com/general76/palest.htm

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/shameful-denial-of-palestine-holocaust-1273237.html

Also try to find the film "Palestine is still the issue" by John Pilger who is a very independent and a true journalist in every sense of the world.


To be honest, I have little hope that you'll gain any understanding. You've already made up your mind on the issue. Further discussion is pointless. But, I have a few minutes to waste, so what the hay.



Appeals to emotion, i.e., the mother who loses her baby because of X, is not a valid form of argumentation. It is an attempt to gain sympathy for your argument, after all, who could not be opposed to babies being squished. Of course, the difference between Israel and the Nazis would be that the Nazis would gather all the babies and put them in the house before bulldozing it.

You are engaging in a strawman debate here. Again, it is an invalid argument. Who here has said that it is okay for Israel to have a 100% Jewish state? No one. No one has denied that Israel is doing evil things. So stop attacking us for doing so.

That's what I said. As I also said, brutal, thuggish, and illegal does not equal holocaust.

This is an appeal to authority. This is another invalid argument.

This is another strawman argument.

So the sum total of the valid statements you engaged in here was a restatement of what I had already said. You, however, fail to prove your premise that the Israeli occupation equals a holocaust. Instead of vague arguments, "teh evil Jewes killed teh babes!!1!!1111!," you might want to try cited facts, numbers, dates, places, and valid rational arguments.

Since you're talking about the occupation, you have to limit yourself to post-1967. This leaves out events such as Dier Yassin, Kibya, Jedah, Liddah, etc. To prove your case, you need to show a campaign of genocide. You need to show where the Israelis have carried out a systematic effort to exterminate the Palestinian people since 1967.

[SouthernBelle82]

Only because that's what they deserve right now. They aren't interested in any sort of debate or discussion but propaganda.


Might I suggest you take your own advice. You're now engaging in ad hominem attacks, another invalid form of argumentation. Instead of dealing rationally and factually with Zim's arguements, you're swearing at him at and cursing.

[SouthernBelle82]

And here you were just talking about facts. :rolleyes: The dictionary is included with that you know. And hon are you now the communist gate keeper? Everything has to be according to you or nothing at all? Get real. You're not the one who decides shit. Oh and I don't give a damn how long you've been a communist or whatever. Get over yourself and go be a gate keeper to someone else. I don't do that shit with you so don't you do it to me. If you do than goodbye.


No communist worth his or her salt refers to a dictionary to discuss complex social and historical phenomenon. This shows the total bankruptcy of your position.

[chegitz guevara]

I'm never going to be understanding about ANY oppressive regime that is killing innocent people who's only fucking crime IS LIVING! What's the phrase that is said with the Jewish people? "Never forget"? Well seems like a damn good number of them have forgotten and are doing it their damn selves. Thankfully people in general are waking up from rightwing religious bullshit whether it's Judaism, Islam or Christianity.

Uhm hon the baby was already there. The government didn't allow the mother to go get her child. And I don't give a fuck what you think about the argument. IT'S REALITY! TRY IT! Why are you making fucking excuses? Hey ZIM HERE'S YOUR FUCKING DOWN PLAY RIGHT HERE!

See definition one and four from the dictionary.

I guess definitions doesn't equal facts in this so-called debate.

Gee how about since they've been in Israel? Again why is it okay for them to have a 100% "pure" race state but when someone else tries it they're crucified etc? As I said earlier rules are only applied to certain people. Here are some facts, figures etc for you but I don't expect you to read them since you're so busy defending Israel's government.

Links: --removed because I'm not allowed to post links yet--

Also try to find the film "Palestine is still the issue" by John Pilger who is a very independent and a true journalist in every sense of the world.

You fail.

[chegitz guevara]

Only because that's what they deserve right now. They aren't interested in any sort of debate or discussion but propaganda.

I think your arguments deserve contempt, but I'm taking the time to treat them seriously in the vain hope that you'll think logically for a moment instead of spewing from your heart.

[SouthernBelle82]

No I don't. You didn't even read a damn fucking thing. You posted way too fast to have read anything. Get over yourself.


You fail.

[SouthernBelle82]

Yeah right. :rolleyes: You're taking them sooo seriously. Get real. Your bullshit doesn't fly.


I think your arguments deserve contempt, but I'm taking the time to treat them seriously in the vain hope that you'll think logically for a moment instead of spewing from your heart.

[Invader Zim]

To be honest, I have little hope that you'll gain any understanding. You've already made up your mind on the issue. Further discussion is pointless.

Indeed, SouthernBelle82 is a fine example of a ferous cranus (http://redwing.hutman.net/&#37;7Emreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm); and one with a truly inept concept of history and politics.

[chegitz guevara]

And here you were just talking about facts. :rolleyes: The dictionary is included with that you know. And hon are you now the communist gate keeper? Everything has to be according to you or nothing at all? Get real. You're not the one who decides shit. Oh and I don't give a damn how long you've been a communist or whatever. Get over yourself and go be a gate keeper to someone else. I don't do that shit with you so don't you do it to me. If you do than goodbye.

No, the dictionary is not included in that. Take a logic class before you say what is and is not valid argumentation. If you argue like a complete moron, then those who understand logic are going to rip you to shreds, as they have been doing, over and over again. The dictionary is not a valid source of information for understanding complex historical and social phenonenon.

[SouthernBelle82]

Right because you just know everything about anything right? :rolleyes: Too bad for you I get A's and B's in any and all related history/political classes. And gee what was that about attacking people? Hypocrite.


Indeed, SouthernBelle82 is a fine example of a ferous cranus (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm); and one with a truly inept concept of history and politics.

[SouthernBelle82]

Hon I'm a college student and I write papers all the time and get A's on all of them. The dictionary IS used all the time whether by me or other students or professors. Only a moron doesn't use the dictionary. What a joke! I guess you also don't use the grammar book either! :lol:


No, the dictionary is not included in that. Take a logic class before you say what is and is not valid argumentation. If you argue like a complete moron, then those who understand logic are going to rip you to shreds, as they have been doing, over and over again. The dictionary is not a valid source of information for understanding complex historical and social phenonenon.

[chegitz guevara]

No I don't. You didn't even read a damn fucking thing. You posted way too fast to have read anything. Get over yourself.

Your failure to understand why you fail has nothing to do with what I did or did not read. Your response failed to deal with what I wrote and engaged in more logical fallacies.

[chegitz guevara]

Hon I'm a college student and I write papers all the time and get A's on all of them. The dictionary IS used all the time whether by me or other students or professors. Only a moron doesn't use the dictionary. What a joke! I guess you also don't use the grammar book either! :lol:

That shit won't fly in grad school, where the serious writing is done. If your professors are using the dictionary, then your teachers are not very good quality. Has education fallen that much since I left school or did I just get lucky and go to a school with serious academic standards?

[SouthernBelle82]

Than it shows you didn't read what I linked to. :rolleyes: Go waste someone else's time.


Your failure to understand why you fail has nothing to do with what I did or did not read. Your response failed to deal with what I wrote and engaged in more logical fallacies.

[SouthernBelle82]

Oh you're sooo clever! (sarcasm) My political professor has degrees from Perdu and the University of Chicago. :rolleyes: I think he knows more than your dumbass does.


Barbers college doesn't count.

[SouthernBelle82]

Here's the college- http://www.purdue.edu/


Oh you're sooo clever! (sarcasm) My political professor has degrees from Perdu and the University of Chicago. :rolleyes: I think he knows more than your dumbass does.

[Invader Zim]

Right because you just know everything about anything right? :rolleyes: Too bad for you I get A's and B's in any and all related history/political classes. And gee what was that about attacking people? Hypocrite.

Guess what; so did I before I graduated, and now I still do as a post-grad.


And gee what was that about attacking people?

I have no problem saying exactly what you are; ignorant and petulant in defeat.

[SouthernBelle82]

Because that's why text books use the dictionary too. :rolleyes: Oh and it's "than" not "then." So much for your education. I guess they weren't that serious if you don't know the difference with "than" and "then." :lol:


That shit won't fly in grad school, where the serious writing is done. If your professors are using the dictionary, then your teachers are not very good quality. Has education fallen that much since I left school or did I just get lucky and go to a school with serious academic standards?

[SouthernBelle82]

I guess all those A's and B's now make a person ignorant in your world. :lol: Pathetic.


Guess what; so did I before I graduated, and now I still do as a post-grad.



I have no problem saying exactly what you are; ignorant and petulant in defeat.

[Invader Zim]

I guess all those A's and B's now make a person ignorant in your world. :lol: Pathetic.


No, making ludicrous comparisons between industrial scale genocide and a relatively brutal occupation, a typical tactic of fascists and neo-Nazis attempting to downplay the tragedy of the holocaust, is what makes you ignorant.

[chegitz guevara]

Than it shows you didn't read what I linked to. :rolleyes: Go waste someone else's time.

You didn't read what you linked either. All you did was google Palestinian + holocaust. Did you even realize that one of those links was pro-Israeli viewpoint and the term "Palestinian Holocaust" was being used ironically? In any event, they are really terrible articles. I did read them. Their arguments are as bad as yours. There's no figures for numbers of dead. There's no evidence of a systematic campaign to exterminate the Palestinians. There's just a bunch of emotional appeals showing disconnected tragic events in an attempt to equate Israel with Nazi-sim. The Aztlan article even has a Star of David morphing in to a Swastika, which is out and out anti-semitic.

The tragedy here is that there are very good, intelligent arguments to be made against the occupation. Socialist Action, the ISO, and even the wretched SWP-USA have fantastic books on Zionism, Israel, and the occupation. You refuse to understand that everyone here criticizes Israel, but some of us understand that it is a colonial settler state, and therefore shares more in common with countries like Canada, South Africa, the United States, Australia, Chile, etc., than it shares with Nazi Germany. If you'd unplug your ears and stop shouting for a minute you might have noticed.

[chegitz guevara]

I guess all those A's and B's now make a person ignorant in your world. :lol: Pathetic.

Albert Einstein flunked out of school, so honestly, your grades don't impress me. All it shows it that you know how to take orders, not that you understand the material.

[chegitz guevara]

Because that's why text books use the dictionary too. :rolleyes: Oh and it's "than" not "then." So much for your education. I guess they weren't that serious if you don't know the difference with "than" and "then." :lol:

"If your professors are using the dictionary, then your teachers are not very good quality."

This is what is known as an "if ... then" statement. It is standard logic, as well as major part of computer programming.

"Than" is a comparison between two things. Invader Zim is more intelligent than you.

So, if you are going to attempt to correct my grammar, then you had best make sure you get it right.

[SouthernBelle82]

Hon you're talking about Holocaust with a capital "h." I'm talking about holocaust with a small "h." As others have said in this thread the word has been around long before what happened with the Holocaust. See how I capitalized the event? And no I'm not. You're downplaying what's happening to Palestine and their people especially children and women.


No, making ludicrous comparisons between industrial scale genocide and a relatively brutal occupation, a typical tactic of fascists and neo-Nazis attempting to downplay the tragedy of the holocaust, is what makes you ignorant.

[SouthernBelle82]

No shit. Give chegitz a cookie. :rolleyes: What did you expect me to kiss your damn ass? Get over yourself seriously. You're now hijacking the thread and aren't talking about the issue at all. Go back and read the original post and come back after you've done so.


"If your professors are using the dictionary, then your teachers are not very good quality."

This is what is know as an "if ... then" statement. It is standard logic, as well as major part of computer programming.

"Than" is a comparison between to things. Invader Zim is more intelligent than you.

So, if you are going to attempt correct my grammar, then you had best make sure you get it right.

[SouthernBelle82]

And you know this how? You know shit about how I study and what I remember or don't. And I could give a rats ass about "impressing" you. Do you think your something special? No. You aren't. Get over yourself. You made the false implication that I can't do arguments etc. and I told about my grades to show I can and can write very well. Why should I give a fuck about your ass?


Albert Einstein flunked out of school, so honestly, your grades don't impress me. All it shows it that you know how to take orders, not that you understand the material.

[SouthernBelle82]

Wow you didn't read everything I linked did you? Like this one? http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/shameful-denial-of-palestine-holocaust-1273237.html

So you lied. Oh I see. So there's no proof huh? How about they've been doing this since the state of Israel was created. How about the only Jews apply rule. I guess that doesn't count in your book. Now they are kicking out Asians. :rolleyes: What about the U.N. telling them to get the fuck out of Gaza and stop occupying their land? I guess that doesn't count as on purpose. :rolleyes: You're comparing Israel to Canada? LOL. I didn't know Canada now was being oppressive towards anyone and murdered anyone. I didn't know they were occupying Michigan now. :lol:


You didn't read what you linked either. All you did was google Palestinian + holocaust. Did you even realize that one of those links was pro-Israeli viewpoint and the term "Palestinian Holocaust" was being used ironically? In any event, they are really terrible articles. I did read them. Their arguments are as bad as yours. There's no figures for numbers of dead. There's no evidence of a systematic campaign to exterminate the Palestinians. There's just a bunch of emotional appeals showing disconnected tragic events in an attempt to equate Israel with Nazi-sim. The Aztlan article even has a Star of David morphing in to a Swastika, which is out and out anti-semitic.

The tragedy here is that there are very good, intelligent arguments to be made against the occupation. Socialist Action, the ISO, and even the wretched SWP-USA have fantastic books on Zionism, Israel, and the occupation. You refuse to understand that everyone here criticizes Israel, but some of us understand that it is a colonial settler state, and therefore shares more in common with countries like Canada, South Africa, the United States, Australia, Chile, etc., than it shares with Nazi Germany. If you'd unplug your ears and stop shouting for a minute you might have noticed.

[Invader Zim]

Hon you're talking about Holocaust with a capital "h." I'm talking about holocaust with a small "h."Thats not the difference, the difference is when people put 'the' before 'Holocaust', not the act of using an upper case 'H'. To quote the dictionary, a tactic you seem so very fond of: -

Holocaust

/hollhttp://www.askoxford.com/images/phonetics/schwa.gifkawst/
• noun 1 destruction or slaughter on a mass scale. 2 (the Holocaust) the mass murder of Jews under the German Nazi regime in World War II.

It is not the issue of employing an 'upper case' 'h', but more using 'the'.


It is also an issue I have already addressed in this thread, so I'll repeat it: -

" As Richard Evans, one of the historians most influencial in the defence of Lipstadt when she was being sued by Irving, said: -

"The meaning of the term 'Holocaust' might have been metaphorical rather than literal; common usage made what it referred to abundently clear."

Richard J. Evans, Telling Lies About Hitler: the Holocaust, History and the David Irving Trial, (London, 2002), p. 113.

The term holocaust, though its etymology of the term 'holocaust' shows that the term has origions that pre-date 1941, it now is clearly synonamous with industrial genocide and the extermination of European jews. To claim that a 'holocaust' is occuring in Israel is to fundermentally trivialise the actual Holocaust and to erode the image of what the Holocaust was. It is the tactic of neo-Nazis, white supremacists and holocaust deniers akin to David Irving, and should have no place on a board such as this.

To quote Irving: -

"[It is] invidious to single out one single act of mass murder of innocents and to label it "The Holocaust", as though there was none other,"

Irving, 'Reply to Defence of Second Defendant', p. 11."

[SouthernBelle82]

Hon quoting the dictionary isn't a tactic. :rolleyes: And your anti-Jewish bullshit is just that: bullshit. No where have I said anything negative about people who are Jewish. I've only talked about Israel's government because that is who is doing the oppression and murder. The fact that they happen to be Jewish means shit. Race doesn't matter and shouldn't matter to anyone and the fact you keep bringing up race shows how little you think of other people and their opinions. You like to think you're intelligent and crap but you surely don't act like it with your childish bullcrap. I get sick and tired of people saying you are anti this or anti that because you criticize a government whether it's being anti-American because I criticize George Bush or anti-Jew because criticize Israel and their policy's. Grow the fuck up. And hon I've also used the word "a" in front of holocaust I believe. Oh and the word "is." :rolleyes:




Thats not the difference, the difference is when people put 'the' before 'Holocaust', not the act of using an upper case 'H'. To quote the dictionary, a tactic you seem so very fond of: -

Holocaust

/hollhttp://www.askoxford.com/images/phonetics/schwa.gifkawst/
• noun 1 destruction or slaughter on a mass scale. 2 (the Holocaust) the mass murder of Jews under the German Nazi regime in World War II.

It is not the issue of employing an 'upper case' 'h', but more using 'the'.


It is also an issue I have already addressed in this thread, so I'll repeat it: -

" As Richard Evans, one of the historians most influencial in the defence of Lipstadt when she was being sued by Irving, said: -

"The meaning of the term 'Holocaust' might have been metaphorical rather than literal; common usage made what it referred to abundently clear."

Richard J. Evans, Telling Lies About Hitler: the Holocaust, History and the David Irving Trial, (London, 2002), p. 113.

The term holocaust, though its etymology of the term 'holocaust' shows that the term has origions that pre-date 1941, it now is clearly synonamous with industrial genocide and the extermination of European jews. To claim that a 'holocaust' is occuring in Israel is to fundermentally trivialise the actual Holocaust and to erode the image of what the Holocaust was. It is the tactic of neo-Nazis, white supremacists and holocaust deniers akin to David Irving, and should have no place on a board such as this.

To quote Irving: -

"[It is] invidious to single out one single act of mass murder of innocents and to label it "The Holocaust", as though there was none other,"

Irving, 'Reply to Defence of Second Defendant', p. 11."

[SouthernBelle82]

This is from John Pilger who is a great traditional journalist. He's written about the issue so I'm going to post his article here. And if you don't take John Pilger seriously than you're even more ignorant than you claim I am.

Link- http://www.antiwar.com/orig/pilger.php?articleid=9144

In Palestine, a War on Children
by John Pilger Arthur Miller wrote, "Few of us can easily surrender our belief that society must somehow make sense. The thought that the state has lost its mind and is punishing so many innocent people is intolerable. And so the evidence has to be internally denied."
Miller's truth was a glimpsed reality on television on June 9 when Israeli warships fired on families picnicking on a Gaza beach, killing seven people, including three children and three generations. What that represents is a final solution, agreed by the United States and Israel, to the problem of the Palestinians. While the Israelis fire missiles at Palestinian picnickers and homes in Gaza and the West Bank, the two governments are to starve them. The victims will be mostly children.
This was approved on May 23 by the U.S. House of Representatives, which voted 361-37 to cut off aid to non-government organizations that run a lifeline to occupied Palestine. Israel is withholding Palestinian revenues and tax receipts amounting to $60 million a month. Such collective punishment, identified as a crime against humanity in the Geneva Conventions, evokes the Nazis' strangulation of the Warsaw ghetto and the American economic siege of Iraq in the 1990s. If the perpetrators have lost their minds, as Miller suggested, they appear to understand their barbarism and display their cynicism. "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet," joked Dov Weisglass, an adviser to the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert.
This is the price Palestinians must pay for their democratic elections in January. The majority voted for the "wrong" party, Hamas, which the U.S. and Israel, with their inimitable penchant for pot-calling-the-kettle-black, describe as terrorist. However, terrorism is not the reason for starving the Palestinians, whose prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, had reaffirmed Hamas's commitment to recognize the Jewish state, proposing only that Israel obey international law and respect the borders of 1967. Israel has refused because, with its apartheid wall under construction, its intention is clear: to take over more and more of Palestine, encircling whole villages and eventually Jerusalem.
The reason Israel fears Hamas is that Hamas is unlikely to be a trusted collaborator in subjugating its own people on Israel's behalf. Indeed, the vote for Hamas was actually a vote for peace. Palestinians were fed up with the failures and corruption of the Arafat era. According to the former U.S. president Jimmy Carter, whose Carter Center verified the Hamas electoral victory, "public opinion polls show that 80 percent of Palestinians want a peace agreement with Israel."
How ironic this is, considering that the rise of Hamas was due in no small part to the secret support it received from Israel, which, with the U.S. and Britain, wanted Islamists to undermine secular Arabism and its "moderate" dreams of freedom. Hamas refused to play this Machiavellian game and in the face of Israeli assaults maintained a cease-fire for 18 months. The objective of the Israeli attack on the beach at Gaza was clearly to sabotage the cease-fire. This is a time-honored tactic.
Now, state terror in the form of a medieval siege is to be applied to the most vulnerable. For the Palestinians, a war against their children is hardly new. A 2004 field study published in the British Medical Journal reported that, in the previous four years, "Two-thirds of the 621 children … killed [by the Israelis] at checkpoints … on the way to school, in their homes, died from small arms fire, directed in over half the cases to the head, neck, and chest – the sniper's wound." A quarter of Palestinian infants under the age of five are acutely or chronically malnourished. The Israeli wall "will isolate 97 primary health clinics and 11 hospitals from the populations they serve."
The study described "a man in a now fenced-in village near Qalqilya [who] approached the gate with his seriously ill daughter in his arms and begged the soldiers on duty to let him pass so that he could take her to hospital. The soldiers refused."
Gaza, now sealed like an open prison and terrorized by the sonic boom of Israeli fighter aircraft, has a population of which almost half is under 15. Dr. Khalid Dahlan, a psychiatrist who heads a children's community health project, told me, "The statistic I personally find unbearable is that 99.4 percent of the children we studied suffer trauma … 99.2 percent had their homes bombarded; 97.5 percent were exposed to tear gas; 96.6 percent witnessed shooting; a third saw family members or neighbors injured or killed."
These children suffer unrelenting nightmares and "night terrors" and the dichotomy of having to cope with these conditions. On the one hand, they dream about becoming doctors and nurses "so they can help others"; on the other, this is then overtaken by an apocalyptic vision of themselves as the next generation of suicide bombers. They experience this invariably after attacks by the Israelis. For some boys, their heroes are no longer football players, but a confusion of Palestinian "martyrs" and even the enemy, "because Israeli soldiers are the strongest and have Apache gunships."
That these children are now to be punished further may be beyond human comprehension, but there is a logic. Over the years, the Palestinians have avoided falling into the abyss of an all-out civil war, knowing this is what the Israelis want. Destroying their elected government while attempting to build a parallel administration around the collusive Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, may well produce, as the Oxford academic Karma Nabulsi wrote, "a Hobbesian vision of an anarchic society … ruled by disparate militias, gangs, religious ideologues and broken into ethnic and religious tribalism, and co-opted collaborationists. Look to the Iraq of today: that is what [Ariel Sharon] had in store for us."
The struggle in Palestine is an American war, waged from America's most heavily armed foreign military base, Israel. In the West, we are conditioned not to think of the Israeli-Palestinian "conflict" in those terms, just as we are conditioned to think of the Israelis as victims, not illegal and brutal occupiers. This is not to underestimate the ruthless initiatives of the Israeli state, but without F-16s and Apaches and billions of American taxpayers' dollars, Israel would have made peace with the Palestinians long ago. Since the Second World War, the U.S. has given Israel some $140 billion, much of it as armaments. According to the Congressional Research Service, the same "aid" budget was to include $28 million "to help [Palestinian] children deal with the current conflict situation" and to provide "basic first aid." That has now been vetoed.
Karma Nabulsi's comparison with Iraq is apposite, for the same "policy" applies there. The capture of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was a wonderful media event: what the philosopher Hannah Arendt called "action as propaganda," and having little bearing on reality. The Americans and those who act as their bullhorn have their demon – even a video game of his house being blown up. The truth is that Zarqawi was largely their creation. His apparent killing serves an important propaganda purpose, distracting us in the west from the American goal of converting Iraq, like Palestine, into a powerless society of ethnic and religious tribalism. Death squads, formed and trained by veterans of the CIA's "counterinsurgency" in central America, are critical to this. The Special Police Commandos, a CIA creation led by former senior intelligence officers in Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party, are perhaps the most brutal. The Zarqawi killing and the myths about his importance also deflect from routine massacres by U.S. soldiers, such as the one at Haditha. Even the puppet Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki complains that murderous behavior of U.S. troops is "a daily occurrence." As I learned in Vietnam, a form of serial killing, then known officially as "body count," is the way the Americans fight their colonial wars.
This is known as "pacification." The asymmetry of a pacified Iraq and a pacified Palestine is clear. As in Palestine, the war in Iraq is against civilians, mostly children. According to UNICEF, Iraq once had one of the highest indicators for the well-being of children. Today, a quarter of children between the ages of six months and five years suffer acute or chronic malnutrition, worse than during the years of sanctions. Poverty and disease have risen with each day of the occupation.
In April, in British-occupied Basra, the European aid agency Saving Children from War reported: "The mortality of young children had increased by 30 percent compared with the Saddam Hussein era." They die because the hospitals have no ventilators and the water supply, which the British were meant to have fixed, is more polluted than ever. Children fall victim to unexploded U.S. and British cluster bombs. They play in areas contaminated by depleted uranium; by contrast, British army survey teams venture there only in full-body radiation suits, face masks, and gloves. Unlike the children they came to "liberate," British troops are given what the Ministry of Defense calls "full biological testing."
Was Arthur Miller right? Do we "internally deny" all this, or do we listen to distant voices? On my last trip to Palestine, I was rewarded, on leaving Gaza, with a spectacle of Palestinian flags fluttering from inside the walled compounds. Children are responsible for this. No one tells them to do it. They make flagpoles out of sticks tied together, and one or two climb on to a wall and hold the flag between them, silently. They do it, believing they will tell the world.

[SouthernBelle82]

John Pilger has a website at, doy, johnpilger.com He has a blog and articles up there of his writings. He has more years in writing then I do so he of course will say things better.

[chegitz guevara]

Wow you didn't read everything I linked did you? Like this one? http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/shameful-denial-of-palestine-holocaust-1273237.html

So you lied.

That's a strong term, there. And an ad hominem attack. Invalid argumentation.

I did read it. It doesn't prove your case. It only means that some other dipshit is using the term "Palestinian Holocaust" when no such thing is occurring. What you can't seem to understand is that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are not being slaughtered. Israel has certainly killed a lot of people, but 40,000 to 50,000 Palestinians is not a holocaust, not over sixty years. It's certainly horrifying, but see, you don't even know the facts enough to give me a figure like the one I just gave. You're flinging around terms like holocaust because a baby got squished. That does not make a holocaust. Ethnic cleansing (which is what Israel is doing) is not a holocaust. No one accuses Serbia of unleashing a holocaust in the Balkans, yet Serb forces killed probably close to 100,000 or more people.


Oh I see. So there's no proof huh? How about they've been doing this since the state of Israel was created.As I pointed out, you'd have had much better success in your argument if you attempted to show how Israel was like the Nazis if you'd paid attention to the War of Independence. However, you can't, off the top of your head, even refer to one instance of genocidal behavior then. If you could have, you would have brought it up. I can. Look up Dier Yassin. Look up the Lyddah Death March. But the Arabs did the same to the Jews during that war. It was civil war, and civil wars are among the most misnamed events there are.


How about the only Jews apply rule. I guess that doesn't count in your book.It doesn't count if you are attempting to prove a holocaust, no. If you're attempting to prove Israel is a racist state, well, not one person here disagrees. So it's irrelevant. This is an appeal to emotion, and thus invalid reasoning. It is also a strawman.


Now they are kicking out Asians. :rolleyes: Again, irrelevant to the central question as to whether Israel is engaging in a Holocaust in the Occupied Territories. This is an appeal to emotion, and thus invalid reasoning.


What about the U.N. telling them to get the fuck out of Gaza and stop occupying their land? I guess that doesn't count as on purpose. :rolleyes:Again, irrelevant to the central question as to whether Israel is engaging in a Holocaust in the Occupied Territories. This is a strawman, and thus invalid reasoning.


You're comparing Israel to Canada? LOL. I didn't know Canada now was being oppressive towards anyone and murdered anyone. I didn't know they were occupying Michigan now. :lol:You might consider looking up the First Nations. Canada was not an empty country before the English showed up and stole it from the French. What percentage of Canada is First Nations now? You really show a lot of ignorance about the world.

[chegitz guevara]

John Pilger has a website at, doy, johnpilger.com He has a blog and articles up there of his writings. He has more years in writing then I do so he of course will say things better.

John Pilger is not that great. Sure, for main stream media he's better than the usual pablum that comes on, but I've watched his stuff, and it's not very good. He's a sappy liberal, but he doesn't really examine too deeply or thoroughly what he's talking about. He's a much better interviewer than we get in America though, I'll give him that.

[SouthernBelle82]

Well according again to the small "h" holocaust definition it is one. That, again, is the definition I'm going by. I would even say Darfur is getting up there but I would still say though they're an ethnic cleansing genocide. Well according to the definition I gave earlier what Siberia is doing would be so. Once again you're using a capital h and I'm not. When you figure out the difference than we can have a serious discussion. Until then it's useless. As others have said the term holocaust has been around years before Hitler came a long. I guess you're going to downgrade those events and the holocaust that happened to the Native Americans with Christopher Columbus and the settlers who came here to the States. I guess that isn't a holocaust to you either. :rolleyes: So you automatically assume I don't know anything about First Nations? You're such a hypocrite talking big about don't doing ad hominem and then you turn around and do it yourself. And I'm supposed to take you seriously. :lol:


That's a strong term, there. And an ad hominem attack. Invalid argumentation.

I did read it. It doesn't prove your case. It only means that some other dipshit is using the term "Palestinian Holocaust" when no such thing is occurring. What you can't seem to understand is that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are not being slaughtered. Israel has certainly killed a lot of people, but 40,000 to 50,000 Palestinians is not a holocaust, not over sixty years. It's certainly horrifying, but see, you don't even know the facts enough to give me a figure like the one I just gave. You're flinging around terms like holocaust because a baby got squished. That does not make a holocaust. Ethnic cleansing (which is what Israel is doing) is not a holocaust. No one accuses Serbia of unleashing a holocaust in the Balkans, yet Serb forces killed probably close to 100,000 or more people.

As I pointed out, you'd have had much better success in your argument if you attempted to show how Israel was like the Nazis if you'd paid attention to the War of Independence. However, you can't, off the top of your head, even refer to one instance of genocidal behavior then. If you could have, you would have brought it up. I can. Look up Dier Yassin. Look up the Lyddah Death March. But the Arabs did the same to the Jews during that war. It was civil war, and civil wars are among the most misnamed events there are.

It doesn't count if you are attempting to prove a holocaust, no. If you're attempting to prove Israel is a racist state, well, not one person here disagrees. So it's irrelevant. This is an appeal to emotion, and thus invalid reasoning. It is also a strawman.

Again, irrelevant to the central question as to whether Israel is engaging in a Holocaust in the Occupied Territories. This is an appeal to emotion, and thus invalid reasoning.

Again, irrelevant to the central question as to whether Israel is engaging in a Holocaust in the Occupied Territories. This is a strawman, and thus invalid reasoning.

You might consider looking up the First Nations. Canada was not an empty country before the English showed up and stole it from the French. What percentage of Canada is First Nations now? You really show a lot of ignorance about the world.

[SouthernBelle82]

Oh good grief. So because he doesn't go with your line of thinking he isn't that great. :rolleyes: Gee more ad homeniem from the one who said not to do it. Hypocrite.


John Pilger is not that great. Sure, for main stream media he's better than the usual pablum that comes on, but I've watched his stuff, and it's not very good. He's a sappy liberal, but he doesn't really examine too deeply or thoroughly what he's talking about. He's a much better interviewer than we get in America though, I'll give him that.

[bcbm]

No hon I'm not. Don't speak for me. Speak for your damn self. I'm using the term holocaust with a small h. I posted definitions from the dictionary and told which ones specifically I was using. The terms I was using on the previous page is correct. If I wanted to do what you're claiming I would capitalize the word holocaust. Have I done that in any of this discussion? No.

So, again, the use of the word "holocaust" here in a situation involving Jews as the aggressor, when it is almost exclusively used to describe the events 1939-45 in relation to European Jewry, is entirely coincidental and you feel that word is really the most accurate one to describe the situation? I suppose people can convince themselves of anything, no matter how irrational it comes off.


And no where hon did I claim the Jews were only singled out. I only said how it's frustrating and interesting that we never hear the stories about the other victims of Hitler.

It's also not true. Every time I've encountered discussions on the Holocaust, the other victims are always mentioned. That Jews receive more frequent treatment in popular culture explorations of the subject has more to do with the overbearing numbers of Jews compared to other groups and the specific concentration the Nazis placed on them (and probably immigration patterns post-45) than any concerted campaign to downplay other victims.


Go out in the streets here in the States and ask a 1,000 people in a survey the following question: do they have any idea what Paragraph 175 is. See how many people say "yes."

I don't know what it is, so I suppose I don't know there were other victims of the Holocaust then?


Apparently you don't know your shit enough to know a simple definition even from the dictionary. From dictionary.com once again:

You missed the point, congratulations. I already acknowledged the dictionary definition, in my first sentence last time I posted in this thread. But hey, let's play with the definition again.


1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire.

While the occupation is brutal, it is neither great nor complete devastation. Normal life is disrupted and much is destroyed but the continued existence of Palestinian settlement in historical Palestine, in addition to the economies allowed to exist therein and that some Palestinians can enter Israel proper, pretty much rules out great or complete devastation.

4.any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.

The occupation is pretty inefficient in terms of "mass slaughter." The second part of this definition is the only one that's really applicable at all and, if you want to be honest, then you'd have to call every modern military endeavor a "holocaust" and basically render the term completely meaningless as a "special" sort of destruction. So, what will it be?


I've told you time and time again who this "they" is. Israel's government. Don't just read where you can jump up and down and pound your chest. Read everything I say.

I've read all your posts, and my chest is happily untouched. If you're talking, in the vaguest sense, about the Israeli government than your argument runs in to some trouble, given what I've already said about the Israeli government in comparison to the Nazi German one. See my previous post where I explained the differences, to which you didn't respond.


On your question of the United States according to the definition yes in their own way. They are being ignored and pushed out etc. for big business. Here in my town not too long ago there was a whole neighborhood of poorer people who were pushed out for big business. The U.S. has also been involved in plenty of murders over the last few years the most recent being in Iraq and Afghanistan and they approved and encouraged Israel's government to attack Lebanon. Oh and with the U.S. need I to remind you about Katrina and New Orleans? See definition four.

So basically the term has no real meaning in your eyes as everything from concentrated inner-city poverty to full on industrial genocide is a "holocaust."

So why use it at all?

[chegitz guevara]

Oh good grief. So because he doesn't go with your line of thinking he isn't that great. :rolleyes: Gee more ad homeniem from the one who said not to do it. Hypocrite.

No, I'm not attacking his character. You said he was great. I countered and gave reasons why I don't think he's that great, merely okay. I happen to know a bit about several of the subjects he's covered. Some of his assertions are just flat wrong, such as in his documentary, The Year Zero which described Cambodia as a gentle, peaceful land fully of happy, gentle peasants prior to the outbreak of war. In reality, the Pot Pot years were exactly what one should have expected if the Cambodia peasantry led a revolution. Cambodian peasants were an extremely brutal, violent people who dealt with disagreements by murder.

I just watched his piece, The War on Democracy. Again, it's long on emotional appeal, and compared to what passes for journalism in the US, quite good. But he's no Greg Palast or Alan Nairn or Robert Fisk etc. He's just okay.

[chegitz guevara]

Well according again to the small "h" holocaust definition it is one. That, again, is the definition I'm going by. I would even say Darfur is getting up there but I would still say though they're an ethnic cleansing genocide. Well according to the definition I gave earlier what Siberia is doing would be so. Once again you're using a capital h and I'm not. When you figure out the difference than we can have a serious discussion. Until then it's useless.

When you use the term holocaust, a comparison between the event you are describing and The Holocaust is automatically drawn. To use the term the way you are using it, because of a vague and sloppy definition in a dictionary (try looking up imperialism some time and see if it matches the definition given by Lenin), both trivializes The Holocaust and massively overstates the nature of the oppression in the Occupied Territories. In addition, when used in context of Israel, and thus Jews, it has additional connotations and baggage. It is an especially loaded term, and thus must be used with great care.

That you would even hesitate (you eventually did agree) to use the term for Darfur while using it for the Occupied Territories only shows how ridiculous your position is. Nearly half a million people in Darfur have died, but you hesitate to call it a holocaust, while maybe 50,000 Palestinians have died over sixty years (most of them in combat), and you get verbally abusive when anyone disagrees with you that it is a holocaust. This only shows that you are coming from an emotional perspective rather than an historical and logical one.


As others have said the term holocaust has been around years before Hitler came a long. I guess you're going to downgrade those events and the holocaust that happened to the Native Americans with Christopher Columbus and the settlers who came here to the States. I guess that isn't a holocaust to you either. :rolleyes:

Tens of millions of people in the Americas died as a result of the European invasion. Not even one tenth of one million Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis. There is a qualitative and quantitative difference between what the Europeans did and what Israel is doing. What happened to the American Indians can correctly be called a holocaust.


So you automatically assume I don't know anything about First Nations? You're such a hypocrite talking big about don't doing ad hominem and then you turn around and do it yourself. And I'm supposed to take you seriously. :lol:

If you knew something about the First Nations, you wouldn't have laughed off a comparison between the Canadian settler state and the Israeli settler state. You demonstrated ignorance, and how you act and what you write are the only indications I have of what you know. So if you write ignorantly, it is valid to assume you are ignorant. There is a reason nearly everyone here disagrees with you, and it isn't because we support Israel. Some of us have been opposing Israel since before you were born.