Has anyone noticed this? Islamophobia vs. Antisemetism

[AshAibA]

Now, I hate to say this.
Has anyone noticed how when someone criticizes an arab government or makes fun of arabs like saying YOUR A SUICIDE BOMBER MAZLIM nothing happens? I don't know about the rest of you, but i've witnessed this a lot. When people seriously criticize Israel though, they get called anti-semites and when people make real jokes about the jewish people (not stupid southpark jokes) real problems begin to occur. The word islamophobic isn't even known to many people in both high schools I have been in, but anti-semitism sure is.

What's your opinion.

[UnderTheWeepingMoon]

Now, I hate to say this.
Has anyone noticed how when someone criticizes an arab government or makes fun of arabs like saying YOUR A SUICIDE BOMBER MAZLIM nothing happens? I don't know about the rest of you, but i've witnessed this a lot. When people seriously criticize Israel though, they get called anti-semites and when people make real jokes about the jewish people (not stupid southpark jokes) real problems begin to occur. The word islamophobic isn't even known to many people in both high schools I have been in, but anti-semitism sure is.

What's your opinion.

It's the jews. They control everything, etc.

[Black Dagger]

Yeah... i dunno if the discrimination forum is the best place for racist sarcasm; i assume you're being sarcastic?

[Aduro]

I think it's because, most people think that Islam is all about bombing and honor killing, and people must think that it's OK to take the piss out of them. As much as I dislike organised religion, this view of Islam is wrong. On the other hand, the public think it's wrong to make fun of jews, because of what their race has been through.
Taking the piss out of either is both as bad.

[jake williams]

Two things I think contribute to it, though I think it's quite complicated.

First, even though the entire world/West was obscenely anti-Semitic in the 40s, not a whole lot better than Germany really, especially pre-1930 Germany, and even though they rejected any suggestions to help Jewish immigrants/refugees for years and years and even sort of supported Hitler kind of awkwardly for a few years, in retrospect it was great for us to be able to say "We went into Germany to save the Jews!", because it means We're Really Great and always have been, and it's going to be the justification of every military/imperialist intervention we ever get into for awhile. So anti-Semitism is bad in part because we fought against Hitler who was horribly anti-Semitic, even though it was for completely selfish defence-of-the-Empire reasons.

So that's a huge part of the reason.

Also, it's not some crazy racist conspiracy to suggest that the American Jewish community, in particular, has done fairly well for itself in terms of the socio-economic hierarchy of the country - not a majority, of course, but a significant and a fairly important minority. So if you're a professional, an academic, sort of general official/dominant class professions - not necessarily megabucks capitalists, but wealthy and/or influential places in society - then they're your friends and neighbours and colleagues, and even here there's occasional racism but it's generally pretty slight. The idea of a "Jewish lobby" in America as sort of a club who occasionally beats the White House into doing its bidding is absurd, but the idea of a sort of cultural lobby, whereby the non-Jewish white majority sort of accepts Jews as one of them (which makes enough sense ethnically, but that's another story) seems to make a lot of sense.

Arabs, on the other hand, have been imperialist and occasionally crusading enemies of Us for centuries. And particularly now, of course, for complicated reasons, partly propaganda reasons - after the Soviet threat was done with we needed a new one, though the racist propaganda against China is already brewing and it's likely that'll replace soon enough. Granted Jews have been victims of European racist brutalizing for millennia as well, but remember that's not us, that's the Germans, and we fought the Germans, so we're good.

Also (boldface because I'm blathering on by now and I doubt anyone's still reading, but this is important) - old racism is sort of dying out now. There were important gains for, well Blacks especially in America in the 60s, but in the West for non-Euro races generally over the last century. It's no longer "cool" to say you hate black people for the sort of broadly "liberal" American elite, but it is cool to get all excited about Barack Obama, who is a horrible candidate for a million different reasons - and remember, because you're excited about Barack Obama you're Really Good. What is "cool" is to attack black single mothers, and it's even cooler to rip apart Bolivian peasants or Arabs - it's sort of economic neo-(liberal)-imperialism in which it's great to have a black guy on your board of executives as you rip the shit out of African mines, say.

But we still don't like the Arabs, because they're Enemies, and it'll be the Chinese soon too, remember.


ed: Also most people don't know the difference between Arabs, black African Muslims of whom there are a significant few, and Pakistanis/Bangladeshis, and no one even remembers Indonesia, which is good especially because then you have to talk about Suharto.

[TC]

I don't know I suspect it depends largely on region...in England you wont be called an anti-semite for criticizing Israel (except by Zionist organizations like the UJS, or if you do it too much like Galloway) or an 'islamophobe' for talking about muslim terrorism (this is pretty much demanded by the establishment)...

...but people will often be called 'islamophobic' both by sections of the left (RESPECT) and mainstream liberals for criticizing reactionary cultural practices associated with muslim communities, like arranged cousin marriages, genital mutilation, female seclusion and covering, etc. Likewise to actually oppose the existence of the state of Israel and Zionism rather than its conduct will get you termed anti-semitic.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

It's much easier to be branded an Islamophobe than an anti-semite these days. I frequently harp on about Israeli imperialism at my college, I get nothing but a few converts and a few enemies, same as whenever I voice my opinion. :L

However, mention that you think the Qu'ran is disgustingly reactionary and violent, and that desecration of the book is no worse than say, pissing on a copy of The Bell Curve and straight away even my marxist teacher tells me I've gone too far and that I ought to respect their culture.

-Alex

[jake williams]

It's much easier to be branded an Islamophobe than an anti-semite these days. I frequently harp on about Israeli imperialism at my college, I get nothing but a few converts and a few enemies, same as whenever I voice my opinion. :L

However, mention that you think the Qu'ran is disgustingly reactionary and violent, and that desecration of the book is no worse than say, pissing on a copy of The Bell Curve and straight away even my marxist teacher tells me I've gone too far and that I ought to respect their culture.

-Alex
If you hang out with a bunch of lefty university kids you're going to get a different audience, and hence a different reaction, than you will in the mainstream.

[LSD]

Has anyone noticed how when someone criticizes an arab government or makes fun of arabs like saying YOUR A SUICIDE BOMBER MAZLIM nothing happens?

I suspect that if one were to say "YOUR (sic) A SUICIDE BOMBER MAZLIM (sic)" to an actual Muslim person, a great deal would happen. Specifically that person would become quite angry; you might even get hit in the face in response, and not undeservingly.

In some parts of the world, saying the above might even get you killed.

I assume, however, that you are not refering to conversations with actual Muslims. I don't quite understand how that's possible given that you used the second person, but I'll go with it for the sake of argument. And I have no doubt that among non-Muslims, making fun of Muslims often goes unchallenged.

I'm equally certain, however, that there's nothing exceptional in that. Mocking the "other" is a social ritual about as old as spoken language itself. Find yourself any exclusive social group and, sooner or later, someone will crack a joke about whatever ethnicity/religion/race/sex/orienation/whatever isn't represented.

Black people make fun of white people, white people make fun of black people, men make fun of women, women make fun of men, and on and on ad infinitum. And most of the time, it's utterly meaningless; nothing more than a release of tension and a manifesation of

And when that kind of humour is taken to the public sphere, it more often than not provokes near-universal outrage and renunciation. Just look at the world reaction to those Danish Mohammed cartoons. Even putting aside the infantile response in the middle east, all across the "west", those cartoons were subject to scores of chagrined condemnation.

They weren't censored as the theocrats would like, but that's a good thing. You still can't deny that the response across the board was a negative one.

And insofar as "criticizing an arab government", I'm truly shocked that you'd expect that sort of thing to be condemned. I don't think there's an arab government on earth that doesn't deserve condemnation, and accusing anyone who critizises a "brown" country is the worst sort of paternalistic post-colonial bullshit.


When people seriously criticize Israel though, they get called anti-semites

By whom? Zionists? Well, that's to be expected, they don't really have anything else to defend their position with. For the most part, however, this claim that all of Israel's critics are vilified as "antisemites" is overexagerated.

The notion that no one can attack Israel is belied by the fact that millions of people do it every day; it's further falisified by the fact that the UN has passed something like 76 seperate resolutions on the subject of Israel (almost all of them critical). I'm not sure there's a more critisized state on the planet - with the possible present exception of Iran.

Do Israel's apologists label their enemies "antisemitic"? Yes, but then Islam's apologists are just as free with their new word "islamophobia. And there isn't a Christian organization on the planet that doesn't accuse its enemies of being "anti-Christian" or "anti-faith".

Call it an ad hominem or poisoning the well or guilt by association, it's the oldest rhetorical trick there is; and nothing fires up a group --and gets the donations flowing -- like the threat of "attack" from ones "enemies".

So Jewish groups are constantly on guard against "antisemites". It's just so much sexier than "opponents of the occupation of Palestine".


and when people make real jokes about the jewish people (not stupid southpark jokes) real problems begin to occur.

What exactly is a "real [Jew] joke" as distinct from the type one might see on "south park". Seems to me that South Park is famous for making jokes aboout Jews and all other sorts of people. Indeed it's routinely criticized for it by Jewish groups, Christian groups, Muslim groups, Scientology groups, and practically every other group that has a press office.

I would imagine the ADL found the South Park's "jew jokes" to be pretty damn "real"! So I honestly have no idea what in the world you're talking about.


The word islamophobic isn't even known to many people in both high schools I have been in, but anti-semitism sure is.

That's 'cause the word's only been around for a very short time. "Antisemitism" has a history going back 150 years and has a unique place in the history of western civilization in general and European culture in particular.

I have no doubt that in 50 years, we'll all be familiar with the notion of "Islamophobia", as facetious as it is.


Also, it's not some crazy racist conspiracy to suggest that the American Jewish community, in particular, has done fairly well for itself in terms of the socio-economic hierarchy of the country - not a majority, of course, but a significant and a fairly important minority.

It's about more than that, though. Jews have been a part of western culture for long enough that, liked or not, they're familiar. There's still a great deal of latent antisemitism, but most people are prepared to tolerate Jews because, at some level, they're used to them.

Islam is still alien to western eyes, however. It still evokes images of strange writing on exotic minarets, turbans and scimitars and, these days, bombs strapped to chests.

There's always been some Muslim presence in Europe, most notably in Iberia and the balkans, but it's always been a tiny and rather isolated population. In the last 25 or so years, however, the Muslim population of Europe (and America for that matter) has exploded. And at the same time, the Muslim world assert itself for the first time in the geopolitical arena.

Muslim radicals in Afghanistan beat back the mighty Soviet Army, Iran threw off its British-American puppet, and as of 1973, OPEC holds the world economy by its proverbial balls. The US has now fought two major wars in the region, and funded God knows how many; in the last 10 years alone, Muslim terrorists have killed, conservatively, something like 10,000 western civlians; and all the while Islam is on the verge of overtaking the holy Christian faith as the leading religion in the world.

Is it really that surprising that most westerners are getting nervous? People don't react that well to major transitions, and what's happening now is a major transition. The demographics of the planet are undergoing their most serious correction in about 400 years. Fifty years ago, the bulk of the Islamic work was made of tribal fiefdoms lorded over by European masters. Fifty years from now, it will be a global superpower.

Change, it's a *****.

[AshAibA]

Yeah... i dunno if the discrimination forum is the best place for racist sarcasm; i assume you're being sarcastic?


No, I'm actually very seroius

Let me say my opinion.
-----


The zionist basically run this country with AIPAC and large corporations. They control the media, and i have noticed that the media systematically makes our enemies look bad with small doses of propaganda so its hard to notice. Also, the holocaust has been taught to me every single year since 5th grade! its so exploited in the education system that its basically super glued to the peoples minds which makes them feel more bad for the jews. The people of America don't hear what happens to muslims that much therefor they don't care, along with the zionist propaganda mentioned above. In a way it also largely has to do with Israel. As I have said the Zionist control the US and its their duty to make sure people feel sympathy for the jews and not even care about muslims, with stereotypes in order to make there mission in the middle east look good.

[jake williams]

The zionist basically run this country with AIPAC and large corporations. They control the media, and i have noticed that the media systematically makes our enemies look bad with small doses of propaganda so its hard to notice. Also, the holocaust has been taught to me every single year since 5th grade! its so exploited in the education system that its basically super glued to the peoples minds which makes them feel more bad for the jews. The people of America don't hear what happens to muslims that much therefor they don't care, along with the zionist propaganda mentioned above. In a way it also largely has to do with Israel. As I have said the Zionist control the US and its their duty to make sure people feel sympathy for the jews and not even care about muslims, with stereotypes in order to make there mission in the middle east look good.
Then you're completely insane! AIPAC does almost nothing. The Holocaust should be taught, it's one of the sickest, and most important, events in human history. So, of course, should Suharto be talked about, the millions of Southeast Asians killed by Americans be talked about, Israeli ethnic cleansing and colonization, and, of course, how little anyone cared about the Jews and the Holocaust in fighting World War II, though well enough they didn't really know too much.

There are obvious reasons for almost all of media propaganda and capital/official class activity and ideology and so on that has nothing to do with some sort of Secret Zionist Control Squad. There's a bit of not-totally-insignificant cultural influence because of race-class dynamics and the social history of Europe and America and so on, but it's not like there's a "team" with Protocols that gets together to control everything. Also the American Jewish community is extremely complex and diverse, more so even than maybe most ethnic communities are, and all of them are quite a bit anyway.

[Comrade Rage]

Also, the holocaust has been taught to me every single year since 5th grade! its so exploited in the education system that its basically super glued to the peoples minds which makes them feel more bad for the jews.I think the holocaust SHOULD be taught, and people should feel bad for the Jews. That said, I think the general point that you were making about how the stereotyping of Muslims is tolerated is a valid one. We have a lot of stereotypes that are (wrongly) tolerated that we must fight.

[Zurdito]

Now, I hate to say this.
Has anyone noticed how when someone criticizes an arab government or makes fun of arabs like saying YOUR A SUICIDE BOMBER MAZLIM nothing happens? I don't know about the rest of you, but i've witnessed this a lot. When people seriously criticize Israel though, they get called anti-semites and when people make real jokes about the jewish people (not stupid southpark jokes) real problems begin to occur. The word islamophobic isn't even known to many people in both high schools I have been in, but anti-semitism sure is.

What's your opinion.

That's because Israel is key to the interests of the imperialist bourgeoisie, whereas muslims tend to get in the way.

[AshAibA]

I think the holocaust SHOULD be taught, and people should feel bad for the Jews. That said, I think the general point that you were making about how the stereotyping of Muslims is tolerated is a valid one. We have a lot of stereotypes that are (wrongly) tolerated that we must fight.

Of-course it should be taught. never said it shouldn't. The problem is that the schools teach it so much that it gets so stuck in your brain and you begin to treat them better then you treat yourself. Also, why should you feel "bad" for jews. What happened happened 70 years ago and is over, should we feel bad for every race/ethnicity/religion that has been persecuted.

I have encountered a poll, and when this lady asked me, what's your biggest fear. I sarcastically and stupidly said Gipsies and jews. When she wrote down Gipsies down and not jews, I asked her. She said that it was mean to put jews down, and that there is nothing wrong with putting Gipsies down. That is the kind of stuff I am talking about

[olia]

To some people it is still fresh in their mind even if it seems like it happened so long ago to others. Anti-Semitism is a serious issue and always will be just as Islamophobia is. Also, I feel as if you're linking up ever Jew with Israel and Zionism.

[MarxSchmarx]

That said, I think the general point that you were making about how the stereotyping of Muslims is tolerated is a valid one. We have a lot of stereotypes that are (wrongly) tolerated that we must fight.Here here.
In fact, many of the same BS that was used against Jews is shamelessly recycled against Muslims. For example, the shit about the white slave trade is alive and well in anti-Islamic rants.

[BobKKKindle$]

Islamophobia is prevalent because people assume that Muslims are complicit in or offer support to terrorist groups who use Islam as a justification for attacks against civilians. We need to educate people about what Muslims actually believe (and the attitude of most Muslims towards Islamism) to dispel these myths.


old racism is sort of dying out now.The reverse is true; in many European states, the far right has been able to attain electoral successes. In 2002, the National Front was able to beat the socialist party in the French presidential elections, which meant they went through to the second round - something previously considered impossible. This suggests that many "white" Europeans feel that immigrants are posing a threat to their economic stability ("they're stealing our jobs, they are abusing the welfare system" etc) and culture ("Why is there a mosque on every corner? Why don't they learn to speak our language?" etc)


The zionist basically run this country with AIPAC and large corporations. They control the media, and i have noticed that the media systematically makes our enemies look bad with small doses of propaganda so its hard to notice. Also, the holocaust has been taught to me every single year since 5th grade! its so exploited in the education system that its basically super glued to the peoples minds which makes them feel more bad for the jewsYou have misunderstood the direction of the relationship - it's America that controls Israel (not the other way round, as white supremacists have tried to argue with their allegations of the "Zionist occupied government" and a "jewish conspiracy") because Israel serves as an extension of American power in a region of strategic importance - the middle east. I see no problem with the Holocaust being taught from a young age - children need to be told about this terrible event or else they might be susceptible to the arguments of deniers, who claim that the holocaust never occurred, or was not as horrific as has been suggested. European students should be taken on compulsory excursions to the death camps so they can see what humans are capable of when they are motivated by hatred. Never again comrades.

[EwokUtopia]

You gotta take this from most peoples point of views. To do so, you have to realize where they get this. This is a rather large world issue, and as such it gets massive coverage from mainstream media, which is easier for people, especially in older generations, to access than other forms of information. Even if it is subtle, which it often is not, the mere wording used in relations to this conflict are important. Rather than speak about who did what and what happen, they use hotwords like "terrorist" which immediately provoke extremely negative emotions in most people. For instance, look at the summer war. Hezbollah was constantly reffered to as terrorist (bold for the fact that they usually shout the first syllable) while the Israeli military was reffered to as simply a military. Compare the two words, they are uneven in terms of emotional reactions.

Also, you have to realize that the images given are vastly different.

This is a typical image of a Palestinian in the Media:
http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/lebananon%20Palestinian%20Arabs.jpg

And this is what an Israeli looks like:
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/1572/345082673ntgmwqph5fz.jpg


Now, your an average, not particularly well red person who takes interest in this subject, who do you think you are more likely to side with? Who looks more like you? Who looks like the good guys and the bad guys?

I'd dare say that the subtleties of images and words is far more distorting to the situation that outright inflammatory hate-speech against Arabs.

Lets look at some words. In most Media:
Settlement=Neighbourhood (you almost expect Mr. Rogers)
Wall=Fence (white picket perhaps?)
Occupation=Conflict
High Explosives=Percision Weapons
Palestinian Animosty= Antisemitic Hatred
Zionism=Liberal Democracy
Resistance=Terrorism
et cetera...

[Bandito]

Absolutely true.
Journalism in occupied Palestine is 100% controled by Israel.
Also a very good point about the photos.

[jake williams]

[old racism dying out]

The reverse is true; in many European states, the far right has been able to attain electoral successes. In 2002, the National Front was able to beat the socialist party in the French presidential elections, which meant they went through to the second round - something previously considered impossible. This suggests that many "white" Europeans feel that immigrants are posing a threat to their economic stability ("they're stealing our jobs, they are abusing the welfare system" etc) and culture ("Why is there a mosque on every corner? Why don't they learn to speak our language?" etc)
To some extent, okay, yeah, and it's extremely worrying. But I maintain that it is a pretty "marginal" phenomenon, at least within the context of power, that this isn't really the dominant trend of society.

[Lenin II]

This might seriously be my favorite thread on anti-Zionism ever!
Those photos are perfect satire of the media's portrayal of the Palestinian struggle.
And to think the revisionists still want to side with Israel over Hamas.

[Zurdito]

This might seriously be my favorite thread on anti-Zionism ever!
Those photos are perfect satire of the media's portrayal of the Palestinian struggle.
And to think the revisionists still want to side with Israel over Hamas.
I'm confused now. Was Stalin himself a revisionist seeing as he backed the creation of the state of Israel and desperately wanted to pursue an alliance with them? I guess Hoxha wasn't too great on the issue either because at the time he endorsed Stalin's rule.

[Lenin II]

I'm confused now. Was Stalin himself a revisionist seeing as he backed the creation of the state of Israel and desperately wanted to pursue an alliance with them? I guess Hoxha wasn't too great on the issue either because at the time he endorsed Stalin's rule.
Probably the essential aim of Soviet foreign policy was to support Israel’s struggle against British imperialism. Moscow hoped to boot the United Kingdom out of Palestine by backing the partition plan while seeking to prevent the USA from actively entering the area at Attlee’s request. It was probably hoped that the small Jewish state would choose to be neutral and perhaps even afford a foothold in the Middle East to the USSR – the Kremlin may have cherished some illusions about the “progressive” inclinations of the Israeli leaders. In any case, the Soviet Union strongly opposed any attempt to prolong the British mandate or to institute a trusteeship which would have been placed in the hands of the Western states.

One fact alone demonstrates that the Russian position, rather than being inspired by any sort of sympathy for Zionism, simply expressed Stalin’s desire to contribute to the collapse of the British Empire: Moscow also sent arms to Syria, which was at war with Israel at the time.

This was an error doubtlessly, and I curse the day Stalin made that decision. It reveals an underestimation of the ties between the Zionist leaders and the United States. However it is unfair to say it was directly counterrevolutionary, since to declare so would be hindsight bias.

[Zurdito]

Probably the essential aim of Soviet foreign policy was to support Israel’s struggle against British imperialism. Moscow hoped to boot the United Kingdom out of Palestine by backing the partition plan while seeking to prevent the USA from actively entering the area at Attlee’s request. It was probably hoped that the small Jewish state would choose to be neutral and perhaps even afford a foothold in the Middle East to the USSR – the Kremlin may have cherished some illusions about the “progressive” inclinations of the Israeli leaders. In any case, the Soviet Union strongly opposed any attempt to prolong the British mandate or to institute a trusteeship which would have been placed in the hands of the Western states.

One fact alone demonstrates that the Russian position, rather than being inspired by any sort of sympathy for Zionism, simply expressed Stalin’s desire to contribute to the collapse of the British Empire: Moscow also sent arms to Syria, which was at war with Israel at the time.

This was an error doubtlessly, and I curse the day Stalin made that decision. It reveals an underestimation of the ties between the Zionist leaders and the United States. However it is unfair to say it was directly counterrevolutionary, since to declare so would be hindsight bias.

1.) So what did Stalin think would happen to the Palestinians? Or did that not matter as long as Britain was weakened?:confused:

2.) There is no hindsight bias about it, the British and French had tried to establish Israel in the 1920's as a counter to Arab nationalism.

3.) So what if Zionists were fighting Britain? Sometimes opressor nations fight against their imperialist sponsor when the imperialists want to slow the pace of colonisation or bring in a "peace deal". Israel sometimes has clashes with imperialists even today over this. Does that make Israel anti-imperialist? Hypothetically, is Israel went to war with the US or Britian today, would you actually support it? Because I wouldn't. That would be like leftists in 1994 calling "victory to the Serbs" as they placed Sarajevo under seige, and NATO dropped a few bobms to try and detain the pace of the genocide and impose a pro-Serbian peace deal.

Oh wait, many "revolutionaries" did call "victory to the Serbs" on that occassion.:rolleyes:

[MT5678]

2.) There is no hindsight bias about it, the British and French had tried to establish Israel in the 1920's as a counter to Arab nationalism.


Yep. The idea was to creat a great white state in the middle of a sea of brown barbarians.

Of course, Israel is doing most of the barbarism now. Accoring to National Geographic, hardly a Marxist magazine, 1200 Israelis and 5600 Palestinians have died since the Second Intifada.

Half the people the Israelis killed were women and children.

And how many people died when the Israeli supply cuts knocked out chemo for their cancer, blood-clot treatment for babies, and food for the hungry?

On the whole, Israel is a land of lunatic, pro-apartheid people who are proud of their stance. Only a few people break the norm.

[Zurdito]

Yep. The idea was to creat a great white state in the middle of a sea of brown barbarians.

Of course, Israel is doing most of the barbarism now. Accoring to National Geographic, hardly a Marxist magazine, 1200 Israelis and 5600 Palestinians have died since the Second Intifada.

Half the people the Israelis killed were women and children.

And how many people died when the Israeli supply cuts knocked out chemo for their cancer, blood-clot treatment for babies, and food for the hungry?

On the whole, Israel is a land of lunatic, pro-apartheid people who are proud of their stance. Only a few people break the norm.

I agree 100%. I was talking about Stalinism supproting Israel, not about the character of Israel. Maybe you misread my post?:confused: