I have been debating far too long! someone help

[AshAibA]

Hi, i am a fan of many people including Karl Marx, Lenin, Guevara. And whenever I tell people that. They say O..CHE WAS A MURDER STEALER EVIL COMMUNIST. and LENIN IS A MASS MURDERER. now. I would like to have so good solid FACTS NOT OPINIONS. on why they are great. I know why i love them, but when i debate. they say all i say is lies and honestly, i cant say if what i say is true becuase i dont have evidence..

I need statistics as in...how bad cuba was before the revolution...(poverty ect.)

and how che WASNT a murder and all these things are myths... i need good arguable facts that can kill someone in a debate! thanks!

[Zurdito]

Che killed people. So did Lenin. They were soldiers. do the people who say this to you oppose all wars ever? Do they think Winston Churchill is a hero? Do they think it's ok to wipe out the populations of Dresden and Hiroshima for the "greater good" and to "defeat fascism"? In which case, why are they so shocked that you support armed revolution to defeat capitalism for the greater good?

[AshAibA]

I know that already. and i use that to defend my self. but when they say that the government before the revolution was better, that angers me.... i need some facts and evidence that can proove them that the government before the revolution was a horrible government and stuff like that

statistics most favorbly

[Publius]

Hi, i am a fan of many people including Karl Marx, Lenin, Guevara. And whenever I tell people that. They say O..CHE WAS A MURDER STEALER EVIL COMMUNIST. and LENIN IS A MASS MURDERER. now. I would like to have so good solid FACTS NOT OPINIONS. on why they are great.

Maybe they aren't.

They were murderers, to various degrees.

I think that probably both of them can be justified, though.

Was Lenin really worse than the Tsar?


I know why i love them,

Don't "love" them. That's a silly thing to do.

Admiration is one thing, adulation is another.


but when i debate. they say all i say is lies and honestly, i cant say if what i say is true becuase i dont have evidence..

Then why do you say it? Can't you see that it's quite silly to love someone that you don't even know the first thing about?

You might want to re-assess why it is you believe what you believe, because if you love someone, and you can't even figure out if they're "mass murderers" or not, something is wrong.



I need statistics as in...how bad cuba was before the revolution...(poverty ect.)

and how che WASNT a murder and all these things are myths... i need good arguable facts that can kill someone in a debate! thanks!

What's the purpose of "killing" someone in a debate?

[AshAibA]

Maybe they aren't.

They were murderers, to various degrees.

I think that probably both of them can be justified, though.

Was Lenin really worse than the Tsar?



Don't "love" them. That's a silly thing to do.

Admiration is one thing, adulation is another.



Then why do you say it? Can't you see that it's quite silly to love someone that you don't even know the first thing about?

You might want to re-assess why it is you believe what you believe, because if you love someone, and you can't even figure out if they're "mass murderers" or not, something is wrong.



What's the purpose of "killing" someone in a debate?

Heres your typical smart alec.
i dont love them in the adult way.
i know my facts, but i never have written evidence
and when i say kill, i dont mean IM GOING TO KILL YOU WITH A KNIFE
its just a lil silly word meaning beat someone in a debate

[UnderTheWeepingMoon]

Heres your typical smart alec.
i dont love them in the adult way.
i know my facts, but i never have written evidence
and when i say kill, i dont mean IM GOING TO KILL YOU WITH A KNIFE
its just a lil silly word meaning beat someone in a debate

Here is your typical Che T-Shirt wearing 14 year old.

How can you have fact without evidence? :/

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Here is your typical Che T-Shirt wearing 14 year old.

How can you have fact without evidence? :/
It is entirely possible for a fact to have evidence to back it up, but for a person to lack that evidence in a debate.

And I would ask you not to be so hostile to newcomers, even if you are one yourself.

AshAibA, if your opponents are actually calling Lenin, Che et al mass murders then the burden of proof lies on them to back up such accusations. There is little doubt that Lenin and Che killed people during the Russian and Cuban revolutions (well I'm not quite sure about Lenin, but let's say for argument's sake that he did). But killing someone as a soldier in a war or revolution is not murder.

[RedStarOverChina]

Refusing to resist against the mass murdering system of capitalism is much worse. Like the French used to say, a month of revolution is less bloody than a day of reaction.

[BIG BROTHER]

I know that already. and i use that to defend my self. but when they say that the government before the revolution was better, that angers me.... i need some facts and evidence that can proove them that the government before the revolution was a horrible government and stuff like that

statistics most favorbly

damm I can't remember that much, but Cuba for example even though they don't have what I would qualify as a good socialist system, still better than it was before, when a few land-owners had all the land and cuban peasants were starving while working in their landlords land. Also back in Batista's rule black Cubans wouldn't even be allow to enter the fancy hotels, and another known fact, was that corporations, mafia and gov't from the US controlled cuba and it was pretty much disguised colony.

[manic expression]

I know that already. and i use that to defend my self. but when they say that the government before the revolution was better, that angers me.... i need some facts and evidence that can proove them that the government before the revolution was a horrible government and stuff like that

statistics most favorbly

Rest assured that those people are either lying or completely ignorant. Remember that the capitalists will stop at NOTHING to slander about our movement, and the issue of Cuba has always been polluted by capitalist lies.

OK, here are some stats:

http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba/000305cubastats59.html
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

On democracy:

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

Here's one excerpt I've seen that explains the situation quite well:


Before the 1959 revolution (http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba/000305cubastats59.html)
· 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
· More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
· 85% had no inside running water.
· 91% had no electricity.
· There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
· More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
· Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
· The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
· 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
· 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
· 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
· 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
· Racial discrimination was widespread.
· The public school system had deteriorated badly.
· Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
· Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution (http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm)


“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.



No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. All of the people of Cuba worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.

Poll: Americans don't support Cuban Sanctions
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=770


I hope that helps. If you have any questions, let me know.

[bellyscratch]

Dont know if this will be any help, but i will try put forward my (inexperienced) opinion.

First of all, im not Che's biggest fan, yes i agree with alot of the things he wanted to achieve, but not necessarily the way he went about trying to achieve them.

Lenin is someone that i have more respect for, but, he still had flaws like all of us.

Like someone said before, do not love these people. Respect them by all means, but remember the flaws of them and take the positives forward. If i was having a debate, i would openly say i didnt agree with everything about Che, but there can be alot learnt from what he did.

It also looks like your trying to take the quick route of acquiring knowledge for these debates, but there is no quick way of doing it. You have to spend hours and hours and hours and hours reading about these people, and then read even more.

The best bit of advice is simple if you want to be able to put up a good argument and that is, just read.

[Jazzie Boy]

Hi, i am a fan of many people including Karl Marx, Lenin, Guevara. And whenever I tell people that. They say O..CHE WAS A MURDER STEALER EVIL COMMUNIST. and LENIN IS A MASS MURDERER. now. I would like to have so good solid FACTS NOT OPINIONS. on why they are great. I know why i love them, but when i debate. they say all i say is lies and honestly, i cant say if what i say is true becuase i dont have evidence..

I need statistics as in...how bad cuba was before the revolution...(poverty ect.)

and how che WASNT a murder and all these things are myths... i need good arguable facts that can kill someone in a debate! thanks!

The answer here is easy. Just do what Che did. He went muslim infidel style on non believers. That's what you need to do. Just go kill them. Don't worry about it, they're just filthy capitalists. Cut their fucking heads off, drink their blood and that'll show everyone that communism is definitely the correct ideology to follow. Good luck.

[Colonello Buendia]

I respect Che and admire the fact that he went to great lengths to defend his beliefs. the best way to mess with the cappies is to shoot the arguments down by asking them to back up their sources

[Davie zepeda]

We must learn from the past to make sure are vision of are communism is not tainted with the same mistakes also all men have errors in there way's but theres is difference .i tell you doing it thinking it is for the greater good or like all capitalist knowing what your doing is for the great good of one self.

i must say che, lennie .what ever they say mass murders ha they only did what was necessary for the revolution to survive none the less as we see in Latin American revolutions can not be achevie with the capitalist in tact for they only bring unrest and overthrow the system with lies you have to destroy the threats even if it means looking like a monster i understand the blood spilled is not good but i only say to use this as a last resort if the capitalist gain to much control as in Venezuela where the working class is left polarized .

[Winter]

Ask these people: Is George Washington and the minutemen murderers for fighting in the Revolutionary War? Is a militia of Jews living in Nazi Germany murderers for killing German soldiers? Why is murder acceptable in instances such as these but not acceptable when it comes to people in other countries fighting for there rights to live? That's all what Che and Lenin did, they fought for the rights of the workers and peasants, to give them the living conditions they deserve.

[Raúl Duke]

but when they say that the government before the revolution was betterI think it's easy to argue against that...

In Lenin's case, Socialism/Stamocap/etc was better than feudalism and was better at industrializing rapidly in a less bloody fashion than capitalism (early capitalism sucks alot.) Also, the Czar had labor camps, etc and I think he and his predecessors probably sent more people to death than the Soviets ever did.

In Cuba's case, the "revolution" brought literacy, lower mortality rates, etc to more levels (specifically the under class) of Cuban society. Although thy might have sent people top prison/labor camps/etc but so did Batista and probably in a worst way. Although now they might seem to be "very bad" but one must take into account that they had their special period and the Soviet Union, which provided them with many things, had just collapsed. The economy is trying to better itself (although this lead to trying to improve their state-owned economy yet also introduced capitalist elements in tourism.) and now has help from Venezuela.

All in all, it was pretty good for the lower classes in the beginning. However, none of them reached communism unfortunately...

[AshAibA]

Rest assured that those people are either lying or completely ignorant. Remember that the capitalists will stop at NOTHING to slander about our movement, and the issue of Cuba has always been polluted by capitalist lies.

OK, here are some stats:


Here's one excerpt I've seen that explains the situation quite well:



[/font]I hope that helps. If you have any questions, let me know.


Thanks! thats exactly what i'm looking for. Now I can finally have some good evidence with me from now on when I debate.