When is the right time for Revolution?

[Mr. Path-e-fist]

We lots of people banging on about how much of an anarchist they are and how much they would love participate in a revolt. However actions are stronger than words and to my knowledge no one has yet to lead us lefties to our socialist society. Which brings me onto my question, What the hell do we need to get a revolution going?

[BIG BROTHER]

we probably need to spend less time in the computer and more time with the oppressed masses.

[lutondave]

I think times need to get harder some people wont fight for thier freedom but will fight when their kids are asking them where dinner is.

[Pawn Power]

It was yesterday. you totally missed it!

[Marsella]

When is the right time for Revolution?
Would next Wednesday night be okay? After, say, 6:30 because I've got dancing on at 5:00 (and I really don't want to miss that).

Cheerio.

[Forward Union]

We lots of people banging on about how much of an anarchist they are and how much they would love participate in a revolt. However actions are stronger than words and to my knowledge no one has yet to lead us lefties to our socialist society. Which brings me onto my question, What the hell do we need to get a revolution going?

Material Conditions, Class Conciousness and a strong Anarchist Organisation.

[Bandito]

we probably need to spend less time in the computer and more time with the oppressed masses
true,but internet is the new media.
I don't think spending time discussing and spreading our beliefs through the web is worthless,but the truth is-you can't do anything with your ass on the stool.

[BIG BROTHER]

true,but internet is the new media.
I don't think spending time discussing and spreading our beliefs through the web is worthless,but the truth is-you can't do anything with your ass on the stool.

I agree.

[lutondave]

I think in Europe we miss suport from the armed forces what the right has.

[Bandito]

Did you mean:militant behaviour that the right wing has?
If that's the case,i have to disagree. Left wingers in Europe are very militant(take Germany) for example. It is stupid to draw lines like:"nazi skinhead"="right wing" and "grass smoking hippie"="left wing". Not olny stupid,but veeery wrong.

[RNK]

Revolutionary situation has existed for the past half century. It our own incompetence which has prevented it from materializing.

That, and anarchists.

[Jimmie Higgins]

That, and anarchists.:rolleyes: that and pointless sectarianism.

Seriously, the right time for the revolution will come when the working class has developed a sense of itself as a class and it's ability to run society on its own terms and for itself. So the question is how can this develop and what is the role or revolutionaries in developing this.

[Bandito]

that and pointless sectarianism.


very much true.

[benpuk]

Seriously, the right time for the revolution will come when the working class has developed a sense of itself as a class and it's ability to run society on its own terms and for itself.
I get the impression the working class is getting slowing less aware of itself, it's situation, and any political system it exists within. Seeing the (increasing, in my perception at least) apathy of the "working"* class makes me think we're getting further away all the time.


So the question is how can this develop and what is the role or revolutionaries in developing this.
Yes, that is a good question. What's the answer?

* not even an accurate term a lot of the time.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I get the impression the working class is getting slowing less aware of itself, it's situation, and any political system it exists within. Seeing the (increasing, in my perception at least) apathy of the "working"* class makes me think we're getting further away all the time.


Yes, that is a good question. What's the answer?

* not even an accurate term a lot of the time.

Yes, class consciousness is pretty low right now in the US and many other countries. On the other hand class conflict and working class action are rising in places like Latin America.

The "how" question is complicated and where the agreement of most people on this site breaks down.

[BIG BROTHER]

Yes, class consciousness is pretty low right now in the US and many other countries. On the other hand class conflict and working class action are rising in places like Latin America.

The "how" question is complicated and where the agreement of most people on this site breaks down.

The bad thing, is that even though Latin America has the elements for a revolution, sadly enough most people have never heard of communism, and some who have, believe in all the capitalist propaganda that condems communism.

As in the US I think that as long as it continues to be a rich country, and the working class itself is in a higher economical position than other workers in other countries, a revolution won't develop, or it will be unlikely.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The bad thing, is that even though Latin America has the elements for a revolution, sadly enough most people have never heard of communism, and some who have, believe in all the capitalist propaganda that condemns communism.

As in the US I think that as long as it continues to be a rich country, and the working class itself is in a higher economical position than other workers in other countries, a revolution won't develop, or it will be unlikely.

No matter what the standard of living, workers are exploited in this system and this exploitation leads to class conflict.

Even though it was reformist in nature, Germany had the largest Socialist Party before WWI, so I don't think living in an advanced capitalist country with lots of industry is a barrier to becoming radicalized or having class consciousness. Often, the larger the capitalist economy, the more severe the booms and busts are and this instability causes people to question the nature of the system. That's part of the reason why people in Argentina protested when the economy collapsed earlier this decade even though Argentina is one of the countries in Latin America with the highest standard of living.

In the US, I don't think it's the standard of living that is causing passivity in the working class side of class conflict, I think it is the relative economic stability of the 50s and 60s, the elimination of union militants and the overwhelming shift to business-unionism, and the legacy of McCarthyism. The US is rich, but US workers are still exploited and are oppressed to a greater degree (Prisons, Racism, business attacks on worker's rights and reform) than workers in other "rich countries" like the UK or France.

[Organic Revolution]

A revolution will come as a spontaneous revolt from the working class. We cant schedule a revolt or revolution.

[Jimmie Higgins]

P.S.

I don't believe any shortcuts will help us get to the revolution. It's frustrating at the moment, but I think that really we are at the point of rebuilding a socialist/anarchist left since the collapse of the USSR and the retreat of social-democracy in the West.

Groups such as the ISO (Trotskyist) and the SDS (Anarchist) in the US are talking to their members and allies about a long-term struggle in rebuilding a left tradition of radicalism, anti-imperialism, and grassroots working class fight-back. I'm sure other groups are talking about the same sorts of things and think this is a positive step in the US. All too often, we have kept our hopes on some spontaneous explosion of radicalism to happen and arouse the masses and that has led to some short-sightedness and a lack of continuity from struggle to struggle. While there is bound to be sudden explosions of wildcat strikes or sudden protests like the immigrant rights protests, when we look back in history we see that the "explosions" that had the most long-lasting effects were actually the harvest from years and decades of small struggle and building a tradition of resistance. Obviously, the civil rights movement had struggled for more than 10 years before black power and radical back organizations gained populatiry. Also, look at the struggle to build industrial unions in the US. It took decades before the IWW was formed, it was more or less destroyed, then it took another decade and a half for the CIO to be built and win big strikes.

I think there will be plenty of short spontaneous struggles for radicals to be involved in, but I think the key is developing a longer strategy; winning over rank-and-file militants in unions/civil rights leaders/anti-war activists to radical class politics (and hopefully to building radical organizations); developing pockets of resistance and radicalism on campuses and workplaces and working-class neighborhoods that can act as a counter-balance to the general feeling of pessimism among workers right now as well as provide an ideological alternative to all the BS propaganda we are fed.

[Comrade Qwatt]

A revolution will come as a spontaneous revolt from the working class. We cant schedule a revolt or revolution.
Wow, what a profoundly anti-Marxist position. To simply say a revolution will spontaneously happen without working class organization with the communists is ludicrous. After all feudalism was abolished by the bourgeois after a long battle of ideas, so must the workers fight to destroy capitalism and replace bourgeois property with socialist.

It is true that development of the revolution will depend largely on class consciousness, and the workers will only become more conscious as they grow larger with furthering industrialization, and the class antagonisms with the bourgeois come into sharp focus.

You sound like more 'historical determinism' crap, that the revolution will happen all on it's own with no exterior help. It is real men that will make revolution, not 'history'.

[BIG BROTHER]

ahh grave digger, you have made some very good points...

[Die Neue Zeit]

Material Conditions, Class Consciousness and a strong Anarchist Organisation.

The funny thing is that, were you not an anarchist, you could have been a valuable member of the Revolutionary Marxists user group (I think, depending on the extent of your knowledge of and willingness to address the crises of political theory). :(

I'll second your words, but substitute "anarchist" with "revolutionary Marxist." :)

This is a quote from our user group:


I would say there a three major crises (1) the lack of understanding what class consciousness means; (2) the confusion of strategy and tactics; and (3) poor foresight into the future (including post-revolution organization).




Revolutionary situation has existed for the past half century. It our own incompetence which has prevented it from materializing.

And what about class consciousness? Not all class consciousness can be formed by organization or worship of such, you know.

[Another] aspect of reductionism is over-emphasis on organization. Such over-emphasis, as if organization is the be-all-and-end-all solution to every single question, leads to "bureaucratization." (http://www.revleft.com/vb/internal-challenges-revolutionary-t70556/index.html)



I'm going to have to mull over that one some more. That's a very interesting point: sometimes it seems like everyone on the Left finds a reason that a particular group failed, and how revolutionary forces could've been better organised to win. But perhaps victory is just impossible in certain instances, and not a question of organisation...Which leads right back to "core" materialism: the ball bounces back and forth between "core" materialism and organization.



Comrades, I offer the material in my thread "Crisis of theory: Merge Marxism with the workers' movement!" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/merge-marxism-workers-t70141/index.html) to this more public area for urgent discussion.

[RNK]

Class consciousness obviously isn't formed simply by some act of organization. You know as well as I, however, that the leftist movement has made some serious mistakes and has generally disintigrated since the 50s and 60s. Obviously the actions of the imperialist powers has done quite a bit but I think it is ignorant to claim that we revolutionaries can do nothing but sit and wait for workers to suddenly grow a conscience. This kind of passive attitude is nonsense; I personally attribute most of our failure to the rampant sectarianism and unwillingness to collaborate between the various parties. And yes, it is an accusation I put on Maoist organizations, too.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Class consciousness obviously isn't formed simply by some act of organization. You know as well as I, however, that the leftist movement has made some serious mistakes and has generally disintigrated since the 50s and 60s. Obviously the actions of the imperialist powers has done quite a bit but I think it is ignorant to claim that we revolutionaries can do nothing but sit and wait for workers to suddenly grow a conscience. This kind of passive attitude is nonsense; I personally attribute most of our failure to the rampant sectarianism and unwillingness to collaborate between the various parties. And yes, it is an accusation I put on Maoist organizations, too.

I hope you aren't accusing me of worshipping spontaneity, because that is the very first reductionism that I attacked in my "Internal Challenges" thread. :(

That you are willing to "self-criticize" in regards to fellow Maoist organizations is a good thing, however.



P.S. - I am offering up for discussion here most of the discussion material so far in the "Revolutionary Marxists" user group, except for the ones attacking various forms of revisionism.

[RNK]

No, that is infact the reason I said you know as well as I the faults in the modern left.

And self-criticism is a mainstay of MLM - unfortunately many self-proclaimed Maoists seem to forget this when it suits them (for instance, RCPUSA :D). We should all be just as critical of ourselves as we should of others; if not, we end up with clusterfucktational sectarianism and people throwing around useless symbolic rhetoric like "revisionism" and "Trotskysm" at any sign of ideological difference.

[Kropotesta]

A revolution will come as a spontaneous revolt from the working class. We cant schedule a revolt or revolution.
i've always found this as an excuse to do nothing but hey I don't know.
I think the their needs to be a strong anarchist organisation which needs to become publically known, for example like the SWP has in the UK. The anarchist cause also needs to have far more power in the workplace, the like the IWW is trying to achieve, before the majority of the working class understands that anarchism isn't just intellectual bourgeois trash. Workers need to take back parts of the means of production to inspire the revolution to show that it is actually possible.

[BIG BROTHER]

Yes, I think that we can all agree in the fact, that if we educate workers about the struggle, the revolution will become much more likely.

[MT5678]

After i'm out of college, I'll come back to learning Hindi, and then I'll go to India and join the Naxalbari if they haven't won already.

[THKO]

anti marxists doesn't stop their organization and we are sitting all day we have to do something. we should be together i have a idea about organization but it need improve and money.let's create a booklet and we have to distribute our booklets

[ninjakik]

i may be new but i have a few beliefs and all this talk of "we have to wait for conditions to be right blah blah blah" such as the working class becoming aware of itself a lot of it is here we have work unions we have social organizations for the working class empowering them and saying we need to wait for the time to be right is redundant and an excuse to continue sitting on our asses talking on this forum i recently read Che's manual on guerilla warfare and although the situation may be different considering this is not cuba i do believe he was correct in one of his statements. "It is not necessary to wait until all conditions for making revolution exist; the insurrection can create them." we can make the conditions right we can spark the revolution and with enough support we can be victorious in forming a new society. i am an anxious person and hope there will be enough action to insight that spark which in turn will cause an unstoppable flame of revolutionary action. remain active comrades :]

[Awful Reality]

During the coming economic oil collapse and after the World War with Russia, China, and Iran.

I'm saying maybe 7-10 years; right now we've got to make sure that that revolution is Socialist/Marxist, not otherwise.

[Awful Reality]

anti marxists doesn't stop their organization and we are sitting all day we have to do something. we should be together i have a idea about organization but it need improve and money.let's create a booklet and we have to distribute our booklets

I'm going to start a thread.

[superwog]

I'm bored of talk.

[YSR]

Revolution is not a moment.

It is a series of moments, a cycle of interrelated actions, that build a new society. The revolution has already begun, but simultaneously "the Revolution" will never happen. That is to say, some apocalyptic, millenarian Revolution will never happen.

Communism is already here. It is a tendency, a strain in the actions of the working class. The struggles of workers on the shopfloor, in the home, in the streets, these actions represent steps taken towards moving communism from a relation among small groups to a relation shared by all of our society. The time for "the Revolution" is past, the time for revolutions is already upon us.