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BIG BROTHER
12th February 2008, 03:10
I just finished reading the communist manifiesto, which i happened to get from the school library. The problem is, that the manifiesto came with an introduction by Stefan T. Possony. And during his introducion he critizises socialim, along with Marxism and communism. This part of his introduction is called "Socialim and Slave labor"

"the greatest mystery of why so-called "progressives" embrace Marxian communism is provided by the Manifiesto's proposal regarding "equal liability of all to labor" and the "stablishment of industrial armies especially for agriculture." This pphrasing is an identical re-write of Engels' formula in the Foundations, except that after the word "labor" Engels had added the following: "until the total suppression of private property." Thus Engels proposed slave labor as a transitory meausre, presumably as a method of forcing the iddle, the rich and non-proletarians to do manual labor. By contrast, the Manifiesto advocated compulsory labor service on a permanent basis. Let it be clrearly understood, then , that communismm, on the strenght of its own demands, must be built upon slave labor. This was pointed out as early as 1848 by de Tocqueville, who said that the socialist state inevitably must become the master of each man. Socialism "is the confiscation...of human liberty... It is serfdom under a new formula." How, we may ask, did such a system ever come to be regarded as "pro-gressive"?

The communist who still uphold the Manifiesto as their gospel cannot be acused of incosistency: they do operate slave labor camps. The social democrasts and socialists oppose the communist on this pint very strongly. But they have never clearly repudiated the Marxian program. It is true that they adhere to Marx only in a dilatory fashion. But as late as 1948 even the British Labor party published a centennial edition of the Manifiesto, in which Harold Laski failed to take issue with the proposed introduction of slave labor.

Karl Kautsky, to his day the leading theoretician of socialism, wrote in his Grundsaetze und Forderungen der Sozialdemokratie(1892) as follows:

Socialist produtction is not compatible iwth liberty of work; that is to say, with the worker's freedom to work when or how he likes.... It is true that under the rule of capitalism, a worker still enjoys liberty up to a certain degree. If he does not quite like a factory, he can find work elsewhere . In a socialist society, all the means of production will be concetrated in the hands of the state, and the latter will be the only employer; there will be no choice. The workman today enjoys more liberty than he will possess in a socialist society.

To "repudiate" Engels, Mark and Kautsky on this central point is not good enought. For once these men were right: socialism without compulsory labor is a impossible as wooden iron or dry water. It is not time for the labor movement to acknowledge that socialism is a flase solution to the problems of misery and opression? Is it no obvious that freedom and well-being cannot be accomplished by the aboliton of property, but only by maintaining or creating conditions in which the largest number of citizens are able to acquire property and, through it, economic security? What mus be repudiated is not just slave labor, but socialim itself."

Now this guy Stefan is dead, but how would you guys respond to him?

RNK
12th February 2008, 04:07
First, the conclusion that socialism equals slave labour seems to have been arrived at by quite a lot of leap-frogging and hole-digging. It is best summed up in this collection of lines:


"equal liability of all to labor" and the "stablishment of industrial armies especially for agriculture." This pphrasing is an identical re-write of Engels' formula in the Foundations, except that after the word "labor" Engels had added the following: "until the total suppression of private property."

The conflict arises when you consider (which the author did not) the material conditions of that labour. A slave does not own what he produces or helps produce; he is forced to labour for his owner, or for a company, or a boss, either by physical force or by coercion (ie, "sign this labour contract or be jobless and homeless"). He does not have any rights to the products, or commodities, he produces, and he is alloted only a miniscule percentage of the profit he helps create.

Socialism radically transforms the relationship between a man and his labour, and the creations of his labour. Under a socialist system, a man would own either the products he creates, or an equitable share of the profit the sale or use of those products generates. This fundamentally changes the relationship and transforms the slave from a propertyless labour commodity in and of itself to a person in control of their own labour and with a voice in how that labour is used.


Karl Kautsky, to his day the leading theoretician of socialism

I can't tell whether you mean "to his day", as in "in his day", or "to this day". Both assertions are false. Kautsky was long-ago exposed for the left-liberal oppurtunist he is; his support of the war in 1914 (on Germany's side no less) showed his true nature, regardless if he changes his position later. Overall, Kautsky was only a leader in the socialist movement because of the lack of any legitimate leaders. Lenin changed all this, thankfully.

Overall the whole thing is a somewhat ingenius but easily-countered attempt to revise socialism into the "boogyman" that western capitalist intellectuals want it to be.

Schrödinger's Cat
12th February 2008, 04:22
What, now they're interjecting propaganda into Marxist literature? Be forewarned: this violates liberty, freedom. Oh, and socialists like to torture little kittens. :D


who said that the socialist state inevitably must become the master of each man.
I fail to see the distinctive point where the state becomes one's master when it is made up of men (and let's not forget women) through democratic organs of decision-making. Right. ;)


In a socialist society, all the means of production will be concetrated in the hands of the state, and the latter will be the only employer; there will be no choice. The workman today enjoys more liberty than he will possess in a socialist society.
RNK is correct; this author leap-frogs over the truth. I suspect the only reason his thoughts are being expressed in words is because he takes favor in bashing communists.

Nobody will be forced to work anywhere they don't want to, be it socialism or communism. Don't like the conditions in one factory? Pick up and move to a different one.

RNK
12th February 2008, 04:39
Another fallacy is the nature of state ownership. Bourgeois intellectuals have cleverly created an atmosphere of mistrust towards their own apparatus of control; I'm sure we're all aware of the right-wing's fetish for bashing the state and calling for its "minimalization" (which they can at this point owing to the severe nature that capital directly controls society without the need for a state).

For when the state controls something it does so at the preordainment of someone (or some class). Today, the state is, obviously, under the control of the ruling class and any action the state takes is naturally an action of the ruling class. When a state is controlled by the people, through, ie, in the situation of a worker's state where democracy and universal suffrage reigns supreme then the actions of the state naturally reflect the ideals of its owners - the people. This is another truth conveniently smudged by many anti-communists (and anarchists, ironically). The issue isn't what the state controls, but who controls the state.

BIG BROTHER
12th February 2008, 06:14
What, now they're interjecting propaganda into Marxist literature? Be forewarned: this violates liberty, freedom. Oh, and socialists like to torture little kittens. :D


lol I know it's pretty sad right? I guess they decided not to bann they manifiesto as long as it had capitalis propaganda.

And thanks for all of you guys answers, to bad that guy isn't around to hear the answers.

Issaiah1332
12th February 2008, 21:27
lol I know it's pretty sad right? I guess they decided not to bann they manifiesto as long as it had capitalis propaganda.

And thanks for all of you guys answers, to bad that guy isn't around to hear the answers.


Ironic actually...that the capitalist propaganda is almost always aimed at destroying the credibility of the state, when capitalism could not exist without a state. They like to make it seem that we will all become slaves to the omniscient state...working our asses off, only to give everything we have produced to the socialist state. Wow...that does sound familiar :rolleyes: