a question to regular OI-ers

[Zurdito]

many of the "counterrevolutionaries" have been here, posting regularly (often at an average of many posts daily) for a considerable time. My questions are honest ones, not insults:

Have any of you ever recruited anyone?
Have any of you made any friends here?
Do any of you feel make any impact here?
Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum?
I ask honestly, not because I particularly want you to leave, but because I cannot imaine spending any significant amount of time in a place where I'm not wanted, not appreciated, have no impact, acheive nothing, and neither develop my own opinion nor learn about anyone else's.

I mean, what would you all think if I joined a libertarian board and started repeating marxist phrases as if they were self-evident, without first even bothering to understand my differences with the majority line - or if, after failing to find any common ground, just still hung around asserting that I was right, based on the same premises which my opponents never accepted in the first place. If you all observed me doing that, what would you think?

Wouldn't you consider it all to be a breathtaking waste of my time?

[Individuality]

Have any of you ever recruited anyone?
Have any of you made any friends here?
Do any of you feel make any impact here?
Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum?No to all of them. I'm here to learn. I learn through questions, which people don't seem to like.

[Red_or_Dead]

[/list]No to all of them. I'm here to learn. I learn through questions, which people don't seem to like.


Its not a matter of us not liking the questions, more the thing that you keep asking the same, and never accepting any answers, even when they are absolutely correct.

Now, I cant be bothered anymore, so all I can say is, run up to a library and grab a copy of the manifesto. Read it, think about it.

[Jazzratt]

[/list]No to all of them. I'm here to learn. I learn through questions, which people don't seem to like.

You're only half way there with learning through questions though - you never listen to the fucking answers you just repeat your same old conceits over and over again.

[Individuality]

Its not a matter of us not liking the questions, more the thing that you keep asking the same, and never accepting any answers, even when they are absolutely correct.
If I ask the same question it's because you probably haven't answered it. The questions I repeat were repeated because they weren't answered or, this is the most common, the person argued semantics(definition of words). As in us having conflicted view points on property and money. So the definition is stated, the question is reasked.


Now, I cant be bothered anymore, so all I can say is, run up to a library and grab a copy of the manifesto. Read it, think about it.
Don't you like talking about your ideology. I sure do. I just want to learn. The people here want to start a violent revolution and force me into their "utopia", I wish to know what it's like. And I'm also very interested in how things work, especially when there are no authoritarian bodies to enforce the complex communist ideals.

That's all. There's no need to get worked up. Let's just shoot the shit.

[pusher robot]

Have any of you ever recruited anyone?No need.
Have any of you made any friends here?There are people that I respect and am interested in hearing from. That's a form of friendship.
Do any of you feel make any impact here?Occasionally. I think there are a lot of people - myself included - who accept their ideology far to easily. Even if I only serve to strengthen people's understanding of their own ideology, that's a impact.
Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum?I try not to repeat dogma. I try to challenge assumptions, highlight inconsistence, and expose holes.


I ask honestly, not because I particularly want you to leave, but because I cannot imaine spending any significant amount of time in a place where I'm not wanted, not appreciated, have no impact, acheive nothing, and neither develop my own opinion nor learn about anyone else's.

My original purpose in coming here was to learn about the different opinions. I doubted that I would be convinced, but I am willing to listen and I was genuinely curious. If there are good answers to the questions I pose, I want to hear them. Also, I enjoy debating with people, and there seem to be people here who enjoy it as well. The intellectual argument is enjoyable for its own sake.


I mean, what would you all think if I joined a libertarian board and started repeating marxist phrases as if they were self-evident, without first even bothering to understand my differences with the majority line - or if, after failing to find any common ground, just still hung around asserting that I was right, based on the same premises which my opponents never accepted in the first place. If you all observed me doing that, what would you think?

I'd think you'd need to raise your game - making more substantive criticism than repeating Marxist phrases. If you find the premises are different, try to find the lowest common premise and work upwards, seeing where it is premises diverge. That discovery in itself would be quite enlightening, and would open the possibility for substantive criticism.


Wouldn't you consider it all to be a breathtaking waste of my time?

Yes if you were just trolling, but not if you took the time to really have an argument. Libertarians need to be kept as intellectually honest as anyone else. Maybe moreso.

[Zurdito]

that seems fair enough. I have heard the name pusher robot mentioned favourably in the past, as opposed to any other OI-er in fact.

[apathy maybe]

Indeed, and I am proud to say that he started haunting these halls because of noticing me on another forum. ;)

I'm not sure if I'm actually one of the folks he respects and learns from, perhaps because I don't hang out in OI much, but I'm fine with that regardless.


(Other OI netizens that are worth a more then the average, include some of the 'left-wingers', Publius and there used to be some other folks, but they have long departed (I'm sure Publius remembers some of them though).)

[Dean]

many of the "counterrevolutionaries" have been here, posting regularly (often at an average of many posts daily) for a considerable time. My questions are honest ones, not insults:

Have any of you ever recruited anyone?
Have any of you made any friends here?
Do any of you feel make any impact here?
Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum?

I'm going to assume that none of this is directed at me.

[Zurdito]

I'm going to assume that none of this is directed at me.

no. I didn't realise you were restricted.

[ironguy]

Have any of you ever recruited anyone? no just got here
Have any of you made any friends here? yes
Do any of you feel make any impact here? yes
Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum? im a leftisti now pose these questions to you. Mr. Zurdito

[Zurdito]

Have any of you ever recruited anyone? no just got here
Have any of you made any friends here? yes
Do any of you feel make any impact here? yes
Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum? im a leftisti now pose these questions to you. Mr. Zurdito

Not recruited yet.

Like to think I've made some friends.

Developing arguments - definitely. That's a main thing I am grateful for finding the site for.

Making an impact? - I hope so, or else I wouldn't post. I think a marxist has an obligation to try to impact upon comrades who have flaws int heir thinkign, as well as to correct their own flaws through debating ideas. Clearly it's much easier for me to make an impact within a marxist (and especially trotskyist) debate, than it is for someone with a completely different ideology to do so, which is why I asked. I don't usually bother with arguments I don't think I can have an impact on, i.e. arguing with stalinists etc. The day I think I can't have an impact on revolutionary leftists at all is the day I'll leave the forum and the movement. I certainly know that many posters have an impact on me and develop my thinking and knowledge, and I very much hope thast sometimes I can make others think twice, or teach them something, with a post.:)

[Joby]

Have any of you ever recruited anyone?

To what? :confused:

Have any of you made any friends here?

I feel an overarching sense of Solidarity to all the others trapped in this Gulag.

Do any of you feel make any impact here?

No. Though I don't think the Far Left is one to judge, especially those of you in America.

Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum?

No.

[bezdomni]

Other OI netizens

I suggest we restirct apathy maybe for using the word "netizen".

[Zurdito]

Have any of you ever recruited anyone?

To what? :confused:


Asking that question goes a long way to explaining why you're traped in OI.



Have any of you made any friends here?

I feel an overarching sense of Solidarity to all the others trapped in this Gulag.


A gulad which you voluntarily log onto every day. Poor you!


Do any of you feel make any impact here?

No. Though I don't think the Far Left is one to judge, especially those of you in America.


1.) I'm not in the USA. 2.) We have to live in the world, regardless of whether we have an effective impact - We don't have to log onto a forum every day which we make no impact on. WTF would be the point? You basically are admitting to wasting your time, and then you feel in a position to criticise others?

As for having an impact on the world though I personally think I make an impact ont he world around me, for example, I'm right now in the middle of an election campaign to sensationally win my student union over from Labour Party bureaucrats and install a marxist President. A few determined individuals can make a huge impact, thanks. I'll be sure to post on here if we do win, but until then, I can assure you that we've succeeded in radicalising many students and forcing the campaign leftwards. :)




Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum?

No


I gathered. Though actually you seemed quite open minded last time we spoke, so, who knows, maybe you're not as bad as you make out. If you ever feel like being useful, I'm sure the "far left" will forgive you. Until then, have fun in your "gulag". You've got no-one to blame but yourself. ;)

[Dean]

no. I didn't realise you were restricted.

Seems most people don't :P

[Demogorgon]

no. I didn't realise you were restricted.

Says a lot about the validity of his restriction, doesn't it?

[Publius]

many of the "counterrevolutionaries" have been here, posting regularly (often at an average of many posts daily) for a considerable time. My questions are honest ones, not insults:
Have any of you ever recruited anyone?No, because I'm not recruiting anyone for anything.




Have any of you made any friends here?Not really. There are people I like and respect, and there are people that like and respect me, but nothing resembling "friendship", which is difficult, if not impossible, to really attain over the internet anyway.




Do any of you feel make any impact here?Yes.




Are any of you developing arguments against communism in an engaged way rather than repeating free market dogma ad nauseum?I am now.

Actually I don't even really argue against communism anymore. When I first came here I was an ardent libertarian, but now I've wised up.

Anyway, I haven't really developed arguments against communism, I've just realized that I'm not a communist, and I don't think I can be. Just like it's not in me to be religious, I don't think it's in me to hold out much hope for the sort of improvement/change of humanity required for and by communism, any time soon.

It'd of course be quite ridiculous to try to predict what's going to happen 50+ years from now. Could humanity ultimately change for the better? Well, it will, or else it'll die off. But that makes human improvement inevitable. Whether or not I'm "for" it is quite irrelevant. I am for it, incidentally, but I don't see how labeling myself 'communist' would aid that by any means.

Political change has occurred via revolution, but has social change?



I ask honestly, not because I particularly want you to leave, but because I cannot imaine spending any significant amount of time in a place where I'm not wanted, not appreciated, have no impact, acheive nothing, and neither develop my own opinion nor learn about anyone else's.



Quite right.

Which is why I make sure that my opinions are worthwhile, and that sensible individuals (it should have nothing to do with being communist or not; you just make yourself an ignorant ass when you discount something because of the label attached to it) can appreciate them.

If my opinions truly weren't wanted, respected, etc. I wouldn't be here.



I mean, what would you all think if I joined a libertarian board and started repeating marxist phrases as if they were self-evident, without first even bothering to understand my differences with the majority line - or if, after failing to find any common ground, just still hung around asserting that I was right, based on the same premises which my opponents never accepted in the first place. If you all observed me doing that, what would you think?

Wouldn't you consider it all to be a breathtaking waste of my time?

Not more than quite a few others. I think that every communist since the major revolutions has been "wasting time", if you want to get pejorative about it.

What has the US communist movement accomplished in the last 30 years? Really? The entire act of being a communist is essentially a waste of time. As is being a libertarian -- look at how Ron Paul spectacularly flamed out. This whole business of theoretical politics is a "waste of time" in the sense that real-life politicans ignore it. Or when they do listen, it's a disaster. Look out how Soviet Russia 'followed' Marx, or how the Bush administration 'followed' Strauss.

The entire act of debating "free market" vs "socialist" is quite silly given the fact that the powers that control everything are already entrenched, and are quite opposed to EITHER of those ideas, and really most every other in between.

So I guess it depends on what you think is a valuable way of spending time. Me, I post here and elsewhere because it interests me in quite a few ways. Intellectually, mostly. But I also hope that I can do something to improve things, even though I realize that basically, I can't.

Anyway, yes it would be silly for you to do that, because anytime you converse without the intent to learn, or the possibility that you are very likely wrong, you're just pissing in the wind.

I don't think I can take seriously anyone who hasn't drastically changed their views at least once, on some major issue. Just the basic probability that you could get your ideology right on the first, or even second time is quite absurd. To think that any one of us has any idea how things should be (let alone whether or not we have any sensible grasp on how things are; maybe things are senseless and chaos rules) is pretty presumptuous.

Which is why I don't really think that -- I don't know what to think.

[careyprice31]

Its not a matter of us not liking the questions, more the thing that you keep asking the same, and never accepting any answers, even when they are absolutely correct.

Now, I cant be bothered anymore, so all I can say is, run up to a library and grab a copy of the manifesto. Read it, think about it.

Reading the manifesto is good however I feel the answer you gave still is a kind of simplistic one. He wont understand just from reading the Manifesto.

Read about the Industrial Revolution, the time that Marx grew up in. Read some Russian revolutionary history. You should know why people became against capitalism in the first place when it was developed by Adam Smith in the 18th century. Because without knowing the enviornment and the history behind it you will not be able to appreciate it.

Even read about some of our Canadian revolutionaries such as Louis Riel. They werent Marxist but they still were oppressed.

To the leftists who visit here. You can read that book, the manifesto, you can shout the slogans, etc. But unless you know the history behind it, of the societies which fostered these beliefs, you're trivializing the entire struggle.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Seems most people don't :P

Why exactly are you restricted, Dean?

From what I've read from you, you seem pretty consistent in your beliefs. Beliefs which are not out of place on this website.

Anyway, just wondering.

[Dean]

Why exactly are you restricted, Dean?

From what I've read from you, you seem pretty consistent in your beliefs. Beliefs which are not out of place on this website.

Anyway, just wondering.

They think I'm sexist.

I've refuted this claim, apparently my statements on abortion - though I agree with the woman's right to choose - are unacceptable tot he witch hunters here.

[R_P_A_S]

[/list]No to all of them. I'm here to learn. I learn through questions, which people don't seem to like.

Some of your questions. are pretty right down stupid. and I know there's not such thing as "a stupid question" but you sure as hell don't ask in a serious matter with any attempt to learn. You do it to 'get a reaction' and to make fun about something you have no fucking idea of. you never bother to research it, read on it, and try to grasp it.

I can say with full confidence that leftist ideology is by far more broad and at times a bit complex to grab easily. hence why it's revolutionary... It offers no gimmicks, no emotional opinions. It's well research scientific and historical.

You can't say that about a system that you don't have to study or understand in order to live in it , be exploited and exploit others. All of you who are just mere reactionaries and capitalist fanatics are lazy in reality because you dont wanna understand the world you live in. you rather eat all the shit you were told and not even bother to educate your selves.

[pusher robot]

All of you who are just mere reactionaries and capitalist fanatics are lazy in reality because you dont wanna understand the world you live in. you rather eat all the shit you were told and not even bother to educate your selves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
"In psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology), psychological projection (or projection bias) is a defense mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism) in which one attributes to others one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety) by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them. The theory was developed by Sigmund Freud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud) and further refined by his daughter Anna Freud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Freud), and for this reason, it is sometimes referred to as "Freudian Projection" [1] (http://www.heretical.com/sexsci/bpsychol.html)[2] (http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/12/a_case_of_freudian_projection.html)"

[R_P_A_S]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
"In psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology), psychological projection (or projection bias) is a defense mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism) in which one attributes to others one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety) by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them. The theory was developed by Sigmund Freud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud) and further refined by his daughter Anna Freud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Freud), and for this reason, it is sometimes referred to as "Freudian Projection" [1] (http://www.heretical.com/sexsci/bpsychol.html)[2] (http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/12/a_case_of_freudian_projection.html)"

and i dont like you because that fucking picture on your avatar gets on my nerves. maybe you are a nice guy. good for you. but i hate that picture. sorry homie! ;)