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RedCeltic
16th January 2002, 01:43
*The following was posted on a yahoo groups on socialism by JT. *


It would be foolish to deny that at one time the capitalist system was a
progressive development of society. It is doubtful if even a dedicated
admirer of privilege would want to go back to feudalism. Who would want to
be ruled by an absolute monarch in the shape of King Charles III, either
with or without Queen Elizabeth II?

If we were so ruled more than a few of us would be plotting a fate for him
similar to the one that befell his unfortunate predecessor King Charles I.
However, although capitalism once moved us forward, it has long since
outlived its usefulness. We come here to bury the capitalist system, not
to praise it.

In deciding whether capitalism, like feudalism, should be consigned to
history we should apply one simple test. Is the capitalist system
organised directly for the needs of all people? If it is not, that would
be the best reason for getting rid of it, and replacing it with one that
would. This is a choice between capitalism or socialism.

Capitalism is organised for private gain, for profit and the accumulation
of capital. It works through class ownership and economic exploitation. It
sets up economic antagonisms within communities and divides the world into
rival capitalist states. It breeds the ideologies of hate which are
expressed in many forms of religion, nationalism and racism. It is
enforced through the power structures of the state. It creates vast
amounts of waste and destruction. It turns all the useful things of life,
including our labour, skills and talents into commodities to be bought and
sold on the markets.

Capitalism makes a god of money and puts this above the real needs of
people, so how could anyone seriously argue that it is organised for the
benefit of the community?

Some obvious examples can be given. Surely, the first thing that any
decent society would do is make sure that everyone ate enough quality food
to sustain good health, yet there are more people starving or seriously
undernourished than ever before. In the 1990s UNICEF stated that 40,000
children die every day from malnutrition or malnutrition-related disease,
and this has not improved. We were all shocked and sickened by the
slaughter of 3000 workers in the Twin Towers in NYC. We should also
remember that throughout the world thousands of children are dying
needlessly every day.

We are not only talking about undeveloped countries. In the so-called
advanced countries there is widespread poverty. In Europe 30 million
people live below the poverty line (less than half average national
income). In America the number is 32 million. According to a report issued
by the “Department of Social Security Report: Households below average
income”, one third of all children, that is 4.1 million, live in poverty.

Appalling neglect of needs

How has capitalism responded to this appalling picture of starvation and
poverty? It cut food production because it was said there was
"over-supply". To understand this we have to understand that in the
twisted language of the market system "over-supply" does not mean "more
than we need". It means that too much food was produced for the purpose of
selling it at a profit. As a result food prices fell and profits were
threatened. To increase prices and profits, production was cut.

In America 82 million acres are taken out of cereal production. This was
equivalent to the combined states of Iowa, Illinois and half of Indiana.
Europe did a similar thing under a different name, "set aside". Under the
latest reform of the Common Agricultural Policy, European farmers have had
to take 15 percent of croplands out of production.

The ‘Independent’ carried sometimes a picture of a Major Lloyd and his
wife who are being paid £19,000 per year for growing nothing on their 215
acres of high quality arable land in Oxfordshire. Major Lloyd is an
ex-life guards officer, a group who are not normally noted for their
humanitarian sentiments but even he can't help saying, "something is wrong
when there are so many people starving in the world and we're being paid
not to grow food".

A further example of how the priorities of profit and capital accumulation
come before the needs of people is unemployment. In the 25 countries of
the so-called Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
(OECD) 35 million are unemployed. In Germany it is over 4 million. Since
1980 in Britain there has never been less than two million unemployed
using the old accounting methods.

In view of all the things that need to be done would a sane society keep
millions of its work-force in a state of idleness? What has been the
"opportunity cost"? Two million unemployed means 10 million work-days lost
every week or 500 million every year. Since 1980, in Britain alone, more
than eight billion work-days have been lost because of unemployment.

Think of all the useful things that could have been done with these eight
billion work-days, the houses and hospitals that could have been built,
the production of food, better education, a decent public transport system
and a clean-up of the environment. These are all examples of how the
capitalist system prevents our use of resources whilst needs are denied.

We are not only talking about material things, we are also talking about
de-humanised relationships in which producers are used as objects for
private gain. Profit and capital accumulation can only be achieved through
the economic exploitation of one class by another. The function of workers
is to create values over and above what their wages or salaries will buy.
This surplus is the source of the obscene disparities in the ownership of
wealth which we see all around us.

The ‘Independent’ reported that in America "Just weeks after AT&T
announced plans to shed 40,000 workers, it has emerged that its chief
executive, Robert Allen, received a pay package in valued at just over $16
million, compared with $6.7 million a year earlier." In this country,
Barclays Bank has announced the loss of a further 1,000 jobs, just after
posting $4 billion profits. This comes on top of its 21,000 workers sacked
since 1991.

Many such examples could be given and what they add up to is the fact that
capitalism is ruthless in its treatment of people when pursuing its aims.
By no stretch of the imagination could the capitalist system be said to be
organised for the benefit of the whole community, and this is the test as
to whether it has outlived its usefulness, now that a world of abundance
is possible.

Practical alternative

The practical alternative which would be organised directly for the needs
of all people is socialism. The challenge of working with others round the
world to set up a new system is not so great as it might appear. Already
we have people doing useful work in every field. In farming, mining,
industry, manufacture, building and transport, and in the running of
services like education, health, communications, radio and television, and
the like, we have people of every skill and talent doing the useful things
of life.

The challenge is to free these resources from the constraints and the
anti-social aims of the capitalist system. If workers around the world can
run society in the interests of profit-mongers then they can surely run it
in their own interests.

This would have to be based on common ownership where all resources and
all means of producing and distributing goods would be held in common by
all people. Then through democratic control and voluntary co-operation
every aspect of society would be organised solely for the benefit of the
whole community.

What can be the justification for wanting to retain a system such as
capitalism, which is only distinguished by its ability to generate failure
and disillusion and all its various ways of thwarting the best hopes that
we have for our future?

The day is long overdue for getting rid of it.


(Edited by RedCeltic at 1:05 am on Jan. 16, 2002)

I Bow 4 Che
16th January 2002, 03:36
WOW! interesting rant!

RedCeltic
16th January 2002, 06:03
Sorry I ment to credit that... it was posted on a yahoo groups on socialism by JT.

I saw it and thought I'd add yet another thread for the capitalists to ignore. :)

Hayduke
16th January 2002, 07:04
damn heavy stuff

Capitalist
16th January 2002, 19:17
Capitalism was used by Monarchies and Feudalists.

Capitalism is used by Communist ("Made in China" cheap goods to keep Chinese Government Officials in charge of the enslaved Chinese people).

Capitalism is used by the United States for both good and bad (Slave Labor, Native American Extermination, Medical Breakthrews).

Does that mean Capitalism is a bad thing?

No it just means that bad people have and still use it.

It is like Freedom

It can be abused if used by the wrong people.

It can be bad if you only look at the dark side.

libereco
16th January 2002, 19:20
Quote: from Capitalist on 8:17 pm on Jan. 16, 2002
It is like Freedom

It can be abused if used by the wrong people.

It can be bad if you only look at the dark side.

so how is freedom a bad thing again mister Capitalist?

Moskitto
16th January 2002, 20:20
I think the point was, because Capitalism does not benefit the lives of the majority of the people then it should be replaced.

Fuedel societies did incorporate capitalism, They also incorporated Tithes and Quotas to keep particularly the lower classes in order.

In Fuedel societies there were codes about what you can wear based on which class you're in, also there were unwritten codes based on how much money you had.

In capitalist societies the written codes are removed but the unwritten codes based on how much money you have remain.

In socialist societies there would be no codes, There would be no rich and poor, there would be no difference between someone who wants to wear one thing and annother.

peaccenicked
16th January 2002, 20:56
Capitalism has an inbuilt obolesence. Its historical function as the creater of a universal class is still in flux.
The problem is partly due to the rise of American Imperialism. Its dominance over the world is like an end of history but it is more like a side step. The dollar as the universal equivalent is just too good to be true for a
capitalist imperial power. In a sense it has a stagnant
monopolistic effect on the world. It as the world's policeman holds back revolution, even progress in the
rest of the world and part of globalisation is about making the world a stinking cultureless money hole. This empire acts a complete reactionary block on the future of humanity. History abhors a vaccuum and this tends to suggest that there will be an increased sense of nationalism throughout the world in search of equilibirium. My own immediate perspective is that socialism will take on an increasingly national character
and become part of the popular movement . Forever finding ways to aid and abet a multi polar world in oppostion to the unipolarity of the present New World order.

RedCeltic
16th January 2002, 21:25
Capitalist said: "Capitalism was used by Monarchies and Feudalists.

Capitalism is used by Communist ("Made in China" cheap goods to keep Chinese Government Officials in charge of the enslaved Chinese people)."


The distrabution of goods is by no means capitalism. Goods where distributed in Roman times... however they did not live under capitalism. You are confusing trade with capitalism, and your right, even communist counteries trade goods.

Capitalist said:"Capitalism is used by the United States for both good and bad (Slave Labor, Native American Extermination, Medical Breakthrews).

Does that mean Capitalism is a bad thing?

No it just means that bad people have and still use it."

The point isn't that it's a bad thing, it's an outdated thing.

Capitalist said:"It is like Freedom

It can be abused if used by the wrong people.

It can be bad if you only look at the dark side."

Just as communism can be a good thing, but be bad if you only look at the dark side. Dictatorship of the prol. should not mean a Govt. without democracy, but rather a Govt. ruled by the people, and not the 5% wealthy class.

And... how is FREEDOM something that is being abused? Do you belive in... Restricted freedoms?

And, what's all this "Lightside/darkside" and "Good/Evil" crap? This isn't star wars.




(Edited by RedCeltic at 4:35 pm on Jan. 16, 2002)


(Edited by RedCeltic at 4:58 pm on Jan. 16, 2002)

HardcoreCommie
16th January 2002, 22:27
What is absolute freedom? Is it something you desire?


(You guys really need to read more Machiavelli, Hobbes, Locke are basic)

It seems to me that in a state of anarchic absolute freedom every individual would have the right (natural) to lay claim and possession on the property and person of any other individual.
According to Hobbes when humans enter society they give up their alienable rights and freedoms, namely the one mentioned above. In turn they receive the alianable rights of others, so they can't lay claim over other individuals and other individuals can't lay claim over them.

The exchange is basic and fair, you give up absolute freedom provided for by the state of nature and in turn you receive liberty, which is defined in this case as freedom from fear and the ability to know that no one will steal the fruit of your labor.

Locke's version of the story is slightly different, he doesn't assume an inherent evil nature to all humans, in his version only some humans are evil.

Machiavelli, in the discourses makes a similar argument about power and how it is not a natural oppressor but can be a guardian against absolute freedom for the sake of liberty.

libereco
17th January 2002, 00:47
Quote: from HardcoreCommie on 11:27 pm on Jan. 16, 2002
What is absolute freedom? Is it something you desire?


(You guys really need to read more Machiavelli, Hobbes, Locke are basic)

It seems to me that in a state of anarchic absolute freedom every individual would have the right (natural) to lay claim and possession on the property and person of any other individual.
According to Hobbes when humans enter society they give up their alienable rights and freedoms, namely the one mentioned above. In turn they receive the alianable rights of others, so they can't lay claim over other individuals and other individuals can't lay claim over them.

The exchange is basic and fair, you give up absolute freedom provided for by the state of nature and in turn you receive liberty, which is defined in this case as freedom from fear and the ability to know that no one will steal the fruit of your labor.

Locke's version of the story is slightly different, he doesn't assume an inherent evil nature to all humans, in his version only some humans are evil.

Machiavelli, in the discourses makes a similar argument about power and how it is not a natural oppressor but can be a guardian against absolute freedom for the sake of liberty.

you tell us to educate ourselves, but it seems you don't know anything about this "state of anarchic absolute freedom"...so how about you start reading up a bit? Bakunin, Kropotkin to start with maybe.

in an anarchist society of course everyone has equal freedom, and of course ones freedom stops where the freedom of the next begins. And by the way not only your above mentioned authors thought of that (does Rosseu ring a bell?).

HardcoreCommie
17th January 2002, 03:58
The problem with the "anarchism" you point out is that it assumes the ideal. It assumes that :

"in an anarchist society of course everyone has equal freedom, and of course ones freedom stops where the freedom of the next begins. "

That may indeed be your definition of what anarchy constitutes but I doubt that the lack of ANY controlling (i.e. the law) authority would bring about such a situation. On the contrary I would think the lack of ANY controlling authority would hasten a situation like the natural state described in Hobbes or Locke (there being only a slight variation between the two).

Since there never has been a natural anarchic state, the example that Locke uses when trying to convey the sense chaos of the anarchic state is the situation that is seen in international relations between states. Locke felt that the lack of controlling authority, law, dictated that relations were conducted by the decree of force. This seems to be an apt parallell to me: if we see that human nations, when not bound by any sort of authority, find no qualms in claiming possession over the property and beings of other nations, then one of the possible intelligent assumptions is that individual humans would act similarly.

Since human nature is an undefinable paradigm, which should not be used to discount anarchy; I find it ironic that the foundations of anarchy as seen in Rousseu use human nature as their support. It seems to me that Rousseu made the terrible mistake of defining a pre-societal Eden for which there was no evidential support of existance, save his definition of human nature.

As far as later anarchist go, they obviously believe that the lack of controlling authority would bring forth an inherent sense of civility in man and that humanity would, for lack of a better expression, behave itself. I think like most people I would be very pleased if humans were inherently good (as it seems to me anarchists believe, although locke would agree), as the world would no doubt be a pleasant place to live. Moreover if humans were bad (as Hobbes believed) I wouldn't be sorely disappointed, since we would know that precautions should be taken to preserve peace, etc. Yet neither I, nor you, nor Hobbes, Locke, Rousseu, Bakunin, or Kropotkin has any authority to say that humans are inherently 'good' or 'bad', and they have no authority to define what human nature is.

Without this authority it seems Hobbes and Locke, who didn't try to define human nature according to their philoshpies but tried to describe the situations in which controlling authority was lacking, have the most solid foundation on which to stand when we try to describe a state of anarchy (as defined by a societal situation that lacks any controlling authority).

Everywhere we witness the crumbling of controlling authority we witness situations in which people attempt to lay claim on the persons and possessions of others. We have seen such situations happen in Somalia, Afghanistan, Liberia, etc. (one should note that when these situations occured they were often brought about by civil war, which is what Hobbes used to describe the anarchic state). In such societies the defining characteristic of anarchy, or lack of controlling authority, has been disaster.

I understand that to many of you here anarchy has a different definition than that which would be given to it by most of the world. But you mustn't make the mistake of defining something by your conception of what YOU WANT IT TO BE, as oppossed to WHAT IT REALLY IS.

From my experience, and that of history, anarchy has brought about situations of mass exploitation and mass violence, and not a Rousseuian eden, or any place where : " everyone has equal freedom, and of course ones freedom stops where the freedom of the next begins."

I would be very interested in learning about the justification for an absolute definition of anarchy as a system where the absolute freedoms provided for one individual don't violate those of others.

But if you're going to recount the principles of the anarchism to which you adhere you should save your keyboard the abuse. I will remind you that you can not define something by what you wish it was, you must define it by what it is as seen by its results when it occurs. In the case of anarchy it would help your case infinitely if you could recount a situation in which the lack of controlling authority did not lead to disaster.



(Edited by HardcoreCommie at 6:52 am on Jan. 17, 2002)

Nickademus
17th January 2002, 19:01
hardcore commie, i actually have read them all

i don't believe that absolute freedom is something everyone desires. in canada our 'freedoms' or often infringed. we say we have freedom of association but you can be deported if you belong to a terrorist organization. we are all for freedom of speech but you can't express yourself through child pornography. people seem to have little problems with this leading me (proving the philosophy) that people don't actually seek total freedom. anyway that's just my rant to follow hardcorecommie's statement.

HardcoreCommie
20th January 2002, 06:02
yup, they don't.

peaccenicked
20th January 2002, 13:52
In the course of real events, what people believe and
what they do are two different things and if I find anarchists on my side of the 'barricades' when comes to a protest or a strike,its ok. All this stuff about absolute freedom is all relative to limits. I don' want to spend my life worrying about the limits to freedom. I want real freedom for humanity. Poverty and State oppression are good enough enemies to be going with.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 2:54 pm on Jan. 20, 2002)

RedCeltic
20th January 2002, 15:24
I believe I was replying to what capitalist said that didn't sit well with me... I didn't think it was a fair comparison...

:"It is like Freedom

It can be abused if used by the wrong people.

It can be bad if you only look at the dark side.

It didn't make sense to me when I read it, however taking it in the perspective HardcoreCommie put it... I'd have to say I agree with his point.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:25 am on Jan. 20, 2002)

libereco
20th January 2002, 16:16
too many quotes seem to mess up everything.....so now red means quote. (by HardcoreCommie)

That may indeed be your definition of what anarchy constitutes but I doubt that the lack of ANY controlling (i.e. the law) authority would bring about such a situation. On the contrary I would think the lack of ANY controlling authority would hasten a situation like the natural state described in Hobbes or Locke (there being only a slight variation between the two).


Well, thats just your opinion. I believe that if all people were enlightened and educated enough, and if society would be fair and build upon mutual help then this ideal world could very much come true.
I don't see this happening anytime soon, but thats not a reason to not strife towards my goal.

Since there never has been a natural anarchic state, the example that Locke uses when trying to convey the sense chaos of the anarchic state is the situation that is seen in international relations between states. Locke felt that the lack of controlling authority, law, dictated that relations were conducted by the decree of force. This seems to be an apt parallell to me: if we see that human nations, when not bound by any sort of authority, find no qualms in claiming possession over the property and beings of other nations, then one of the possible intelligent assumptions is that individual humans would act similarly.

Well, once again we simply disagree. I don't think that this is what would happen. I myself am not one of those persons you described. Nor are most people I know.
And I don't believe that there are some people who are simply "evil" or anything like that.

Since human nature is an undefinable paradigm, which should not be used to discount anarchy; I find it ironic that the foundations of anarchy as seen in Rousseu use human nature as their support. It seems to me that Rousseu made the terrible mistake of defining a pre-societal Eden for which there was no evidential support of existance, save his definition of human nature.

well, i'm sorry, but i don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

As far as later anarchist go, they obviously believe that the lack of controlling authority would bring forth an inherent sense of civility in man and that humanity would, for lack of a better expression, behave itself. I think like most people I would be very pleased if humans were inherently good (as it seems to me anarchists believe, although locke would agree), as the world would no doubt be a pleasant place to live. Moreover if humans were bad (as Hobbes believed) I wouldn't be sorely disappointed, since we would know that precautions should be taken to preserve peace, etc. Yet neither I, nor you, nor Hobbes, Locke, Rousseu, Bakunin, or Kropotkin has any authority to say that humans are inherently 'good' or 'bad', and they have no authority to define what human nature is.

I don't need authority to define human nature...
I'm not pressing my beliefs on anyone.
Anyway, yes i do believe that humans are by nature good. And I don't have any reasons to believe the contrary.
However I don't believe that all humans are good, many have been corrupted by so many factors....

However I don't believe that mankind is inherently evil...if I believed in that i'd either go live alone somewhere or kill myself.


Without this authority it seems Hobbes and Locke, who didn't try to define human nature according to their philoshpies but tried to describe the situations in which controlling authority was lacking, have the most solid foundation on which to stand when we try to describe a state of anarchy (as defined by a societal situation that lacks any controlling authority).

again, i don't see the connection between your first and second statement.

Everywhere we witness the crumbling of controlling authority we witness situations in which people attempt to lay claim on the persons and possessions of others. We have seen such situations happen in Somalia, Afghanistan, Liberia, etc. (one should note that when these situations occured they were often brought about by civil war, which is what Hobbes used to describe the anarchic state). In such societies the defining characteristic of anarchy, or lack of controlling authority, has been disaster.

I don't see how in either of your examples there was a state of anarchy. Afghanistan for example is in no way anarchic....they have an extremely hierachic structure and strong Patriachat and so on.
Those are just states of lack of "central government", but not lack of authority in any way.

I understand that to many of you here anarchy has a different definition than that which would be given to it by most of the world. But you mustn't make the mistake of defining something by your conception of what YOU WANT IT TO BE, as oppossed to WHAT IT REALLY IS.

that doesn't make sense. I have read up a lot on anarchy, communism, capitalism, feudalism and so on.

And indeed most people use the word anarchy in a wrong way. They mostly use it to substitute "chaos". But it is those people who use the word in the way of what they want it to be. Not me.

From my experience, and that of history, anarchy has brought about situations of mass exploitation and mass violence, and not a Rousseuian eden, or any place where : " everyone has equal freedom, and of course ones freedom stops where the freedom of the next begins."

I would be very interested in learning about the justification for an absolute definition of anarchy as a system where the absolute freedoms provided for one individual don't violate those of others.

Any attempts to build up an anarchic situation so far have been crushed by other authorities, never failed on their own as far as I know.

I won't pretend that I know the answers to all questions on how an anarchic society would work, noone really knows, because it is not based around exact rules.

For us to know, we'd have to try. Learn. Change. It's not a static system.

The keypoint for me personally though is mutual agreement and consensus, rather than rule of the rich, the powerful, the majority or anyone else. Also I think that small communities rather than large ones would help a lot. ;)

Anyway, this is just my thoughts (and don't represent the ones of all anarchists i'm sure). I didn't have much time to reply to this post, as i'm really busy right now, but I hope it was understandable.

Also, I personally don't believe that a revolution can help to initiate anarchy. I believe that in order to achieve the goal Evolution and Enlightenment is needed. Revolution is only a option once the people are ready for it, not if the they're in support for the world they live in.

(Edited by libereco at 5:20 pm on Jan. 20, 2002)