Communist Genocide

[Capitalist]

I tried in vain to find numbers on the estimated mass murder of Native Americans by both the United States and Europe itself.

I wanted to compare - but this is what I have

(Non – Communist Murder)

World War 2 (includes both Pacific & European)
55 million

Nazi Germany
6 million Jews

Let Us take a look at Communism

USSR
20 million

China
65 million

Vietnam
1 million

North Korea
2 million

Cambodia
2 million (Pol Pot killed more than 1/4 the population of Cambodia)

Eastern Europe
1 million

Latin America
150,000

Afgahnistan
1.5 million

Communist movements & parties not in power
10,000

Total approaches 100 million people killed

Not to mention the billion more enslaved.

China’s Mao (Tibetan Invader and the ideal communist according to Che GueVara) has killed sheers of people. China has the worst human rights record to date – 65 million people dead!!!

Che Guevara = just another brick in the wall

You are the rage!

Well I am the machine

I will tear down this wall and hold the insides!

The truth will be known!

[DaNatural]

capitalist where the hell did u get these stats from? Its a cheap ploy by you to draw credibility to your comments and stats by laying it out in a nice clear manner. However, your numbers seem grossly exaggerated. 1.5 in Afghanistan? where are these stats from. You are trying to show a direct link between communism and death. But the numbers in afghanistan reflect war! The socialist government did not go out and begin slaughtering people, these people died in war. Unlike Pol Pot or Mao who had people who he considered were traitors. People in afghanistan were killed because of war. A war which shouldnt have happened, but of course the usa "helped out" by giving 650 million dollars in arms to the people from 1980-85. How nice of them. as for your numbers in china under mao those seem ridiculous, I dont have my history text besides me but I can sign my name to affidavit and say that those numbers are nowhere close to reality.
Pathetic attempt my friend.

[MJM]

More bullshit speculation I'm afraid.
Capitalist if you believe everything you read there's no helping you, now go find that mad hatter.I hear there's a tea party somewhere.

[I Will Deny You]

Capitalist, those statistics are kind of random.

6 million Jews, yes--but what about the 6 million people who were killed because they were Jehova's Witnesses, homosexuals, Catholics, and, yes--communists? Your figures for non-communist murder during the Holocaust are only 50% complete. If you can look at the people who died in Vietnam because of communism, why can't you look at all of the deaths in Vietnam because of American (capitalist) involvement? If you find it important to mention that 150,000 people have died in Latin America because of communism then why isn't it important to mention the people who were murdered by the decidedly un-communist Pinochet?

That's without even debating your statistics, which are debatable if anything. And as far as Kissinger is concerned, Vietnam and Chile don't even begin to cover it. There are plenty of other Kissingers out there, too.

Exactly how much of the truth will be known?

[Renegade]

Whatsmore the majority of killings by the USSR were carried out by Stalin, who was a pseudo-communist, just another facist dictator.

The same goes for a lot of the killings in China.

[Renegade]

Oh yeah, while I'm at it, genocide is the attempt to wipe out a race moron.

[Capitalist]

CLASS GENOCIDE!

it is still genocide in my opinion!

maybe not genocide based on race or religion (like the Nazis) but definitely genocide based on class.

Extermination / Genocide = What is the difference! why don't you start picking at my spelling errors too while you are at it.

The Nazis are responsible for 55 Million deaths if you consider them responsible for ALL the deaths in World War 2. That is why I put that number there. You can not hold the Nazis responsible for more than 55 million deaths (that number includes everyone - including all concentration camp victims, Atomic bomb victims, Finland soldiers killed by invading soviets, etc.).

As for my statistics they are based on numbers that are unofficial - they are based on averages from several different in-depth studies and authors that have written about genocide and extermination conducted by totalarian regimes.

Why don't you guys take a look and tell me what you come up with.

Personally I'd like to know how many Native American Indians were killed by European Invasion?

How many Indians were killed by USA specifically.

&

How many Africans were enslaved by the USA prior to 1865?

I'd like to compare the Crimes of the United States with the Crimes of Communism and see who wins.

[gooddoctor]

who gives a shit! fuck communists, fuck capitalists, you've both killed millions of ordinary human beings with your bullshit politics and propaganda.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 4:16 pm on Jan. 11, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

Again and again you try to make your case by pointing out how militant communism is bad. I don't disagree with you on that as I'm neither a communist nor a capitalist. But tell me does the milions of lives lost due to communism excuse the milions of lives lost due to capitalism? A bit of the pot calling the kettle black if you ask me... and I would say your support of Ronie Regan puts you in the same boat as those communists you attack.

[Mclaren]

Are statice right and who sys that ther are right ALL SYTEMS HAVE COMITED GENOCIDES OF POEPLE TO GET ANWARE. got that good in the french revolution people had to be killed to stop a rebelion people have to die and anyway in war such as afghnstan you sytart playuing a numbers game 3000 people dead in the attacks aginst whatver in afghaistan poeple start playing games and what applies in peace doien't apply in war people will ALWAYS DIE IN TRYING TO GET A NEW SYSTEM IN. What about the people tying to stop commuinsm being introduced surly they dersrve a mention don't they oh no they can't i fogot ther captalist dead oh sorry i rember only the minority deaths count

[Renegade]

Give me a break McLaren, you are the biggest pro-status quo loser I've been able to witness so far.

Don't you get that the reason so many people are willing to die and willing to kill (whether it's the right thing or not to advocate violence is irrelevant) is because the status quo is hell on earth?

Now capitalist, as far as 'class genocide' goes, once again, whether you are for or against violence, there is nothing wrong with a certain type of class genocide, that is abolishing classes altogether. I mean, that is your worst nightmare isnt' it capitalist? When you can't exert power over your fellow man anymore. When there is equity, solidarity and diversity in the world. I'm in no way an advocate for some stalinistic central planning system that stinks of corruption just as badly as any police department in the world today, but in the way I mentioned, let class genocide begin anytime, abolish all classes and live in equality.

By the way, I'd like to agree with some of my predecessors on the inaccuracy of the 'non-communist murder' included in your little stats package (which technically should include everything done by russia and china).

You're forgetting indonesia, vietnam, cambodia, iraq, iran, palestine, mexico, nicaragua, guatemala, chile, panama, afghanistan, the native american population, south africa, egypt and the internal war against the african americans. If there was some known way of measuring exactly how many people have died because of this capitalist mess, then there would be no way of the media fooling morally sound people into believing the lies that they are sold so cheaply.

Not to mention that the US helped cause world war two through their participation and support of the treaty of versailles.

Don't speak your shit with me McLaren, or you Capitalist. Leave things the way it is indeed. 'The way it is' got us the fucked over world we have today.

[Mclaren]

Maybe its all of our falts and not my fault but comines or whaver you are

[HardcoreCommie]

Had the US supported the treaty of versaille then WW2 may not have happened, unfortunately the US congress never ratified the treaty of Versailles, turning instead to the isolationism that is characteristic of American foreign policy.

Moreover I think your statement about so many people willing to kill or die, or perform violence in order to upset the status quo is wrong. On the contrary there aren't many people that are willing to die or kill, there are very few.

[Capitalist]

Capitalism is like Freedom and Democracy. It can be abused.

Example of good Capitalism

Medical Company invests a large amount of money into medical research and develops a drug that can fight the side effects of cancer.

Example of bad Capitalism

Slave Driver pays an African tribe to conquer another tribe in hopes of selling the conquered people as slaves in Havanna.

But Communism is always bad. Nothing ever good results out of Communism.

Communism is a breeding ground for dictators, big military, concentration camps, poverty, etc.

The same can not be said for Capitalism.

[Renegade]

Hmm, my reference to violence to oppose the status quo was directed at my predecessors, che, lenin and the likes and their supporters the same people that our capitalist acquaintances were bagging out, it's sad that support isnt' what it once was today.

To capitalist and anyone else, let me explain money. Money is something that you exchange for goods and/or services, it's a representation of your portion of the overall social product, so your examples of good and bad capitalism are just a crock. The fact that research requires money is only because we're in a capitalist system, all it really requires are scientists and technology.

Capitalism is 'the' breeding ground for poverty, this is an inarguable point. It's the lifeblood of large militaries and of dictators. It also confines people to areas because of their socio-economic status, it might not have walls, but it's a concentration nonetheless.

[Imperial Power]

Capitalism depends on self motivated people to succeed. Communism depends on mindless drones to do what the government tells them.

[peaccenicked]

if you the slightest thing about history you would find out that the exact opposite is true and you yourself are living proof of conformist idiocy.

[Moskitto]

Nazi Germany
6 million Jews

When will people realise, Neo-Nazis don't realise, and capitalists don't seem to realise.

Hitler killed a hell of a lot more than Jews

Hitler killed loads of people.

Black People
Slavics (that's 5 million)
Soviet Prisoners of War
Homosexuals
Disabled people
Alcoholics
Union Leaders
Travellers
Gypsies
Socialists
Social Democrats

Anyway the book you're reading is called "The Black Book of Communism" It doesn't estimate 100 million, It estimates 85-100 million. You just took the high figure. Gun freaks in America likewise took the high figure to show that guns had been used 2.5 million times in the last year for self defence.

Here's a couple of reviews from an Amazon user of the Book your reading.

"This is a creative book- a work of fiction in fact- which uses statistical gerrymandering and multiplication on the order of ten to "change our historical perspective". If anything like this number of victims was real how was it kept secret for so long? Remember that all these numbers are at best controversial and more probably made up. If scores of millions of people were killed by the Soviets why do the 700,000 KNOWN, DOCUMENTED victims (shot) of the "Great Terror" stand out? If Mao killed 65 million people (oh come on!!!) then why do most historians note the 2 million victims of the Cultural Revolution? Using the authors' own methods we can make quite a huge and DOCUMENTED list of Victims of Capitalism in the 20th century. (These will be known, uncontroversial victims)- 2 million Congolese (Belgian capitalism); 8 million Europeans killed during the Great War (a capitalist crisis); 50 million kiled during WW2 (the result of capitalism in its most extreme form- fascist imperialism); 2 million Indians (collapse of British capitalist imperialism); 2 million Koreans (anti-communist Cold War); 2 million Vietnamese (French and American capitalist imperialism); 500,000 Indonesians (CIA); 250,000 Guatemalans (CIA); 70,000 Nicaraguans (CIA); 7,000 Chileans (CIA); 5,000 Argentinians (CIA); 2 million Congolese (collapse of Belgian capitalist colonialism); 1 million Rwandans (collapse of Belgian capitalist colonialism)... the list could go on especially if one includes all the victims of the grinding poverty and famine in the capitalist enforced Third World. Unlike most of the victims proposed in "The Black Book of Communism" these are real, documented victims. Books like this make the "victors" in the Cold War feel better about themselves but in real life capitalism and its stepchild fascism have killed alot more people."

Infact I used his method for calculating the death toll from a famine that happens at the same time as food mountains and discovered a 800 million death toll which will be the total unless the world does something by 2080.

annother far less reactive review is

"This is a very frustrating book. While being blatantly one-sided from cover to cover, at times it provides a very sober and excellent analysis of the darker side of 20th century Communism. Unfortunately, many of its contributors (and above all its editor, Stephane Courtois) are so biased that they destroyed any chance this book had of being taken as serious history. The worst thing about _The Black Book of Communism_, however, is that it is being used to further a great lie (or more properly a series of lies all pointing to the same false conclusion): that Communists are equally as murderous as Nazis and that all those Westerners who take a "soft" line on Communism are as shameful as any apologist for Hitler. As is the case with the lie it has come to serve, this book is cloaked with just enough facts to lend a facade of credibility to its outrageous claims.

Ironically, the extremist views this book has come to represent are not those of its two principal authors. Nicolas Werth and Jean-Louis Margolin both denounced Courtois for (among other outrages) equating Communism with Nazism and for having an obsession with inflating the "body count" of Communist rule to the ridiculous figure of 100 million. The fact that these men have both publicly distanced themselves from their editor's fallacies speaks volumes in and of itself. Everyone waving _The Black Book_ as proof of some mythical 'Red Holocaust' that dwarfs the atrocities of fascism should understand that even the two most important contributors to their "evidence" have repudiated such nonsense.

The book's many chapters vary greatly in quality. Some, like Pascal Fontaine's section on Latin America, are just absurd. Fontaine seems to blame Nicaragua's Sandinista government exclusively for all the deaths caused in that country's civil war, as though US-backing of the 'Contra' narco-terrorists had nothing to do with it. Even Margolin, who put together some decent research on Asian Communism, often neglects to tell the whole story. The Khmer Rouge, hands down the most repugnant so-called 'Communist' regime (I say 'so-called' because their practices were almost the perfect antithesis of Marxism-Leninism), had their murderous rule brought down by the intervention of Soviet-backed Vietnamese Communists. This event is glossed over by Margolin, and the fact that the U.S. sent military aid to the same Khmer Rouge butchers during their guerrilla war against the new pro-Hanoi government is not mentioned at all.

Nicolas Werth's 'book within a book' about the Soviet Union, titled _A State against Its People_, is by far the most revealing section. His statements about the sources of revolutionary Russia's extraordinary political violence (decades of dehumanizing oppression suffered by Russia's workers and peasants amplified by the horrors of World War I) fly right in the face of those who insist that it was the Bolsheviks who are to blame for the savagery of the years 1917-22. As for the fallacy that Stalin's methods were merely a continuation of those started by Lenin, Werth directly contradicts this on several occasions, at one point describing the two periods as being 'quite incomparable'. Buried carefully in Werth's text are important details such as Moscow's tenuous control over the actions of its nominal subordinates during the early years of Soviet power and the fact that the punitive measures actually carried out by the Bolsheviks often came far short of matching the savagery of their rhetoric (i.e. having opponents arrested or exiled rather than being 'summarily shot' as so often threatened). To quote Werth directly, most of the evidence of Soviet-era repression 'counteracts the theory of a well-conceived, long-term plan.'

Unfortunately, Werth's contribution, while it has some merits almost entirely missing from the remainder of _The Black Book_, contains just as many errors and omissions. His treatment of the famine of 1932-33 repeats the common folly of pinning the blame for that catastrophe almost entirely on the Soviet government, when in fact it was primarily the 'kulaks' (well-off peasants) who precipitated the crisis by hoarding their surplus grain during a period of food shortages in the hopes of selling it at inflated prices once the cities began to starve. If Moscow was guilty of 'using hunger as a weapon' against the kulaks, then it was only following the example set by the kulaks themselves. Werth is better than the other authors of _The Black Book_, but this is a very modest compliment at best.

As a catalogue of the abuses of power by Communist governments and their tendency to put ideology before practical reality, _The Black Book of Communism_ only half-succeeds, with occasionally accurate and in-depth research being all too often contaminated by misrepresentation of the facts. In its more politically charged role as a damnation of Communism as a wicked creed on par with Nazism, a role which at least two of its authors have themselves rejected, _The Black Book_ will convince only those who wish to be convinced. Remember, Stalin and Mao both met the strongest resistance to their excesses from other Communists, so many of who risked their freedom or even their lives in order to oppose brutality. Many so-called "crimes of Communism" should more properly be called "crimes against Communism".

As for the speculation about a _Black Book of Capitalism_, it actually exists. Authored by another group of French historians and published one year after this book was, you can find a French-language version listed on Amazon.fr under _Le livre noir du capitalisme_. Using the same methods as their counterparts applied to Communist regimes, their research concludes that international capitalism is to blame for up to as many as 300 million deaths since the time of the Industrial Revolution. I sent Harvard University Press an e-mail a while back asking if they were planning to publish an English-language version, but never got a reply. I suspect that like all those who are lauding this book as though it were gospel, they too are only interested in looking at half the story."

[peaccenicked]

Communism and socialism have nothing in common with genocidal practices. We have nothing in common with the counter revolutionary dictators who use marxist theory to justify mass murder, they just pay lip service to it. Stalinism was a twisted anomaly in world history
much in parrallel with ancient Sparta in this respect. Imperialists and their supporters have not got the intellectual honesty to conceed this. They might say that this is bullshit but they have n't got anything in their brains but what they have been spoon fed by the capitalist lie machine, that blinds them at school, spits at them daily from the newsstand and turns them into voice pieces for mental slavery and funniest part it is done in the name of individual freedoom.

[CommieBastard]

Hey, Capitalist, Hitler called himself a National Socialist, does that mean his killings are a result and responsibility of socialism? if you admit that they are not, then why do you accuse Stalin, Mao, and numerous others of being communists, and why do you claim that they prove communism's evil? considering especially how their policies were near identical to Hitler's...

Also, what you don't seem to comprehend is that both the 'good' and the 'bad' of capitalism go hand in hand, as capitalism is motivated purely on profit... sometimes to get profit you have to be ethical, sometimes unethical, but capitalists dont mind just so long as there is profit, and as long as this is a factor, the bad will not go away.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist on 7:09 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
Communism is a breeding ground for dictators, big military, concentration camps, poverty, etc.

The same can not be said for Capitalism.
You'd be hard pressed to find a single country on the face of this planet, capitalist or communist, that is not a dictatorship and does not support dictatorships. I can also think of a concentration camp or two that were in capitalist countries.

There have been concentration camps in capitalist and communist nations. Neither capitalism nor communism are breeding grounds for concentration camps--they happen regardless of the economic system in place.

By the way, Capitalist, what about Rwanda? A successful genocide by almost any measure! 800,000-1,000,000 men, women and children murdered (almost all were killed by machete, after the women were raped) in a mass murder that happened three times as fast as the Holocaust. It was decimation carried out by the people, and it was done by capitalists in a capitalist country. Why wasn't the most recent genocide on earth included in your list?

[Moskitto]

Belgian Congo, 8 million dead so that the Belgian king could make more money. that's capitalist.

[gogo gomez]

Moskitto! What the heck are you talking about? Excuse me but does anyone have an aspirin (no bayers pls)?
Your almost amazing where do you get all this information and even more where do you store it all?

People only use 10% of their brains no? (probably less)
But you? oh my gosh your head must look like a round world globe. (heehee) Have you ever considered ruling the world?

RIGHT ON!

[Moskitto]

It's the one genocide that people forget.

The Armenian Genocide is not the century's first Genocide, This one is. And this one was a lot worse than Armenia.

But in reality, really big mass murderers are comparatively rare despite what everyone says about this century being the nasiest. Only these people have had reasonable estimates of more than a million deaths placed on them.

Adolph Hitler (Germany: 1933-45)
Mao Zedung (China: 1949-76)
Joseph Stalin (USSR: 1924-53)
Chiang Kai-shek (China: 1928-49)
Enver Pasha (Turkey: 1913-18)
Hirohito (Japan: 1926-89)
Hirota Koki (Japan: 1936-37)
Ho Chi Minh (North Vietnam: 1945-69)
Kim Il Sung (North Korea: 1948-94)
Lenin (USSR: 1917-24)
Leopold II (Belgium: 1865-1909)
Nicholas II (Russia: 1894-1917)
Pol Pot (Cambodia: 1975-79)
Saddam Hussein (Iraq: 1969- )
Tojo Hideki (Japan: 1941-44)
Wilhelm II (Germany: 1888-1918)
Yahya Khan (Pakistan: 1969-71)

And surprisingly enough only 6/17 of them were so called "communists."

[gogo gomez]

okay, so i printed what you put down and MOSKITTO it was two pages long! :biggrin: (im copy/paste the rest, ive got to go).

Have a good Weekend.

[Moskitto]

i've found something else interesting on the same site.

Colonial El Niño Famines (1876-1900)
Mike Davis, Late Victorian Holocausts: El Niño Famines and the Making of the Third World (2001) argues that the business policies of the imperial European bureacrats, traders and landlords in the face of El Niño drought intensified these famines and thereby caused millions of deaths. If true, this accusation could easily create a moral equivalence between these famines and the devastating Communist famines of the 20th Century, but so far, the scholarship on this is new and untested.
Estimated death tolls:
1876-79 Famine
India
est. by Digby: 10.3 M
est. by Maharatna: 8.2 M
est. by Seavoy: 6.1 M
China
Broomhall: 20 M
Bohr: 9.5-13 M
Brazil: 0.5-1.0 M (Cunniff)
1896-1900 Famine
India
The Lancet: 19.0 M
Maharatna: 8.4 M
Seavoy: 8.4 M
Cambridge: 6.1 M
China: 10 M (Cohen)
Brazil: 1.0-1.5 M (Smith)
TOTAL: 31,700,000 to 61,300,000 (midpoint: 46.5M)

Interesting...

[Kez]

Quote: from HardcoreCommie on 6:49 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
Had the US supported the treaty of versaille then WW2 may not have happened, unfortunately the US congress never ratified the treaty of Versailles, turning instead to the isolationism that is characteristic of American foreign policy.


well if britain and france helped uncle joe in the fight in the spanish civil war, then we wouldnt be in that shit anyway, if the bastard english didnt apease hitler as a buffer against communist ussr, then we wouldnt have ww2, it all layed in the hands of the capitalists, and they chose war, with 55 million dead.

comrade kamo

[RedCeltic]

Wow... Moskitto I must say your a briliant young lad... but uh.. didn't you say yesterday you aren't going to stress your brain with this board for some time? : ) Anyway glad to see your still here comrade : )

[Capitalist]

"I will Deny You"

At first I was not reading your replies because they were too long - I try to keep it simple. You have very good points but it requires a longer attention span.

As for "Moskitto"

I like the stats.

We must look at the truth behind extermination.

Capitalism is to blame for the horrible diamond trade!

I agree 100%

African children having their limbs cut off so that an American woman can have a diamond for her engagement ring!
- It is horrible and UnAmerican!

Freedom is American

Capitalism is American

However the Freedom to profit on human suffering is not American in my opinion.

Depends how one looks at America, Freedom, and Capitalism.

All have done great good and great bad.

The same can not be said for Communism.

[Capitalist]

"Capitalism depends on self motivated people to succeed. Communism depends on mindless drones to do what the government tells them."

- Imperial Power.

Our point is better summed up in his words.

Can SOMEBODY indicate anything positive about communism?

Besides Public Libraries, Museums, and Zoos - I can't think of anything else that his totally socialistic yet effectively operated without capitalistic motivation.

Even the communist must resort to capitalism to secure their power.

[RedCeltic]

I have already pointed out before that capitalism can't exist on it's own... and has used socialist ideas to prop itself up... "THE NEW DEAL" ring a bell?

[HardcoreCommie]

keynsian economics are hardly socialist, in any sense of the word socialist.

[revolutionary spirit]

i don't know if anyone has mentioned this but how about the capitalist war of 1914-1917 like 20 million dead in their nice blood filled trenches because of facort owners[capitalist] pressing for an arms race

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from HardcoreCommie on 2:48 pm on Jan. 12, 2002
keynsian economics are hardly socialist, in any sense of the word socialist.


Social Security? one of the ten points Marx talked about? Part of the new deal?

[Capitalist]

New Deal = Raw Deal

I can invest for my own retirement, better than the government. Social Security is a waste of my Pay Check.

As for Franklin Roosevelt, the more I read about this man the more I think - what a lousy President.

He let Japan bomb our fleet.

He and Churchill appeased Stalin the way Chamberlin appeased Hitler.

They free Western Europe from Nazi Slavery but leave Eastern Europe to be eaten alive.

Roosevelt & Churchill = Stalin Appeasers.

As for World War 1 - I agree that was a very ignorant war. That was the Royal Family (Grandson Kings of Queen Victoria) playing a real life game of Chess or better yet Risk.

[Moskitto]

What about people who don't have enough money to get a decent pension?

Yeah the first world war was pretty stupid. Getting soldiers to WALK towards machine guns and not changing tactics in a battle for 2 months. General Haig makes me ashamed of what idiots my country produces.

[Jurhael]

Capitalist, you are a moron.

The only people who can do without Social Security are those who DON'T already have it. That would be the rich. The fact that they want to take the THIRD LEG of the retirement(the other two being savings and yes, private retirement plans) from the middle/working class is just pathetic scamming.

People just don't understand that S.S was meant to be a backup plan NOT the retirement plan itself.


The other problem comes from using most of the payroll tax for anything but Social Security.

And I wonder how good the private retirement plans were for Enron workers...

[El Brujo]

I dont think Capitalist knows what the meaning of the word GENOCIDE is. gen: kind race cide: destruction, murder. Now tell me, ARE CAPITALISTS A RACE?!?!?!, and the only right-wing force you mentioned was Nazi Germany, what about:

Fascist Italy
The Taliban
The Shah of Iran
The Cuban millitary government (before Castro took over)
The Dominican millitary government
The Haitian death corpse
The Bolivian millitary government
The Brazillian millitary government
The Argentinian millitary government
The Chilian millitary government
The Paraguayan millitary government
The Uruguayan millitary government
And lets not forget YOUR millitary (which includes the GENOCIDE of native americans as one of its atrocities)and the CIA

And note that all of the above (except Fascist Italy) were supported by the U.S.

[RedCeltic]

Capitalist... my point is.. where would we be without socialist reforms? Where would we be without those socialists 100 years ago who protested against sweat shops, child labor, 15 hour days.. formed labor unions... etc....

Capitalism in the raw... is something found in the 19th century.... and it existed through the 20th century propped up by social (socialist) programs...

Also... have you noticed that even after socialists have been ousted from power such as the Sandanistas social progams they inplemented remained in use?

Social Security was venemously fought by the GOP during the time of FDR as Marxist... yet today you see even members of the GOP support it...

Oh now I suppose your goint to tell me that your a "Pure Raw capitalist" who belives in turning the clock back to 1848... make men women and children slave for 15 hours a day seven days a week...

Minumum wage? Pahh who needs that?

Unions? Pahhh who needs that... another silly red idea...

Welfare? Pahh for the Lazy... If you can't work you should starve.

If you find yourself agreeing with these statements... than yes your a raw piece of crap capitalist turd.

But if you don't... there's still hope for you... your heart isn't black as coal... and now must realize that.. Capitalism is not 100% perfect and Socialism 100% wrong.

Get out of that black and white world my friend.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:47 pm on Jan. 12, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:53 pm on Jan. 12, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

[quote]Quote: from Capitalist on 7:09 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
Capitalism is like Freedom and Democracy. It can be abused.

Example of good Capitalism

Medical Company invests a large amount of money into medical research and develops a drug that can fight the side effects of cancer.

And then the oh so benevolent capitalist medical company charges so much for the drug that only the rich can afford it. Yaaaaaaa!!!

[Capitalist]

Medical Research is very very expensive.

Doctors, Scientists, Lab Research, Trial & Error Research is not cheap. Most research never ever pays a dime.

How else are medical companies supposed to pay for such research?

They have every right to charge high prices.

New Technology is expensive. People who make such a great contribution to society, deserve to be rewarded greatly in return.

This is a prime example of capitalism at work for the good of human-kind and I stand by it 100%.

I am pro-union 100% - everyone has the right to assemble - especially workers.

I am not Republican - I do not support political parties - they hinder true Democracy.

Socialism should be volunteered - not enforced. Although I must agree with Red Celtic. I do believe in taxes and some social programs - however government should advocate the use of the Private sector wherever possible to get the biggest bang for the buck!

[CheGuevara]

I haven't seen any medical executives living in anything remotely near even a middle class existence, so obviously there's room to still make a healthy profit which capitalists see such a need to do while still putting it within range of the people. Of course, this is all absurd thinking because then they might have to drive Lexus's or even a, gasp, obnoxiously large, polluting, phallic symbol SUV, instead of BMWs and Rolls Royces.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 4:43 am on Jan. 13, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

Oh, and you also conveniently forgot the 6 million other people the Nazi's killed, such as communists, anarchists, socialists, gypsies, trade unionists, homosexuals, etc, and the collosal numbers from the war they started.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 4:45 am on Jan. 13, 2002)

[Son of Scargill]

what about bayer and cipro?they are your capitalist friends and yet your government and its protection of corporate and intellectual property rights forced them to drop their price from nearly five dollars a hit to about one
In their words"if you do not lower the price:we will order congress to revoke your patent in the United States and produce it ourselves"
It is a pity they were not so charitable to the african nations that could not afford aids drugs:although they have had to back down on this issue

Bayer is a German company~so the US bullied them~and you wonder why even Europeans have no respect for your system~even Euro capitalists

apologies about the grammar~PC~keyboard playing up~best I can do


RedCeltic~good points~could not agree more

[Capitalist]

I have not forgotten about the millions killed by Nazis.

I am simply stating that the Communists have killed way more.

They make the Nazis look like a boyscout troop when you compare the slaughter.

The Nazis considered themselves socialistic "National Socialists"

Goebels - the Nazi Propaganda Minister was once a communist and disagreed with Hitler's killing of communists. They were basically the same (dividing up eastern europe between themselves). The Nazis were basically Racists Socialists - they did not want Democracy - like the Communists.

The Communists killed many Nazis during those early days too (don't see to many people shedding a tear for either).

We should of listened to General Patton and mowed over the USSR after taking Nazi Germany.

Franklin Roosevelt was such an appeaser - We should have at least demanded that Stalin get the fuck out of Eastern Europe and restore Poland, Romania, Czechoslavakia, Lithuania, blah blah blah

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Capitalist on 7:58 pm on Jan. 12, 2002
"I will Deny You"

At first I was not reading your replies because they were too long - I try to keep it simple. You have very good points but it requires a longer attention span.Well, I aim to please so here goes nothing (or something that's a lot closer to nothing):

You hate Roosevelt (the youngest president ever) but as I recall either you or Imperial Power--who you praise--have said wonderful things about Reagan. (You probably both did.) Kennedy, a liberal from a family of liberals, died young, too.

Then why are you criticizing Social Security? It's your heroes who need it.

Che was in power in his early-mid 30's. Reagan was in power in either his early or mid 300's (he doesn't recall exactly when it was). Social Security is for Republicans!

[Son of Scargill]

the nazis used the term socialist in order to confuse the populace ~the communists were becoming too powerful~the industrialists were worried~Hitler took the money from the industrialists~looked after their interests(remember the hippies~volkswagen thread)and introduced programs to employ people into state sponsored building works(like the autobahns~that led to Poland and the low countries)He used most of the money for the army navy and airforce~the populace were not really interested in this aspect~and any way under the treaty of Versailles he had to be secretive~so while paying lipservice to the people~he was really serving the interests of his industrial backers~so he was always~and always will be a right_wing capitalist

[El Brujo]

Hitler coined the term "National SOCIALISM" because the best interests of the Germans during this time were rising employment, therefore, he would have greatly benefitted by appealing to the working class but all he really did is stuff the unemployed in the millitary. Once Hitler came to power, he had many of the people in his national socialist movement killed because it was an extremely right-wing, non-marxist (it stated that Marx, as a jew was incorrect) interpretation of the communist party. "The Communists killed many Nazis during those early days too(don't see to many people shedding a tear for either).": why dont you go say that to the family members of the six million jews that were killed simply for being born into their religion. "they did not want Democracy - like the Communists.", another idiot that thinks Capitalism=democracy when the rich control the economy and there is an electoral college that is purpously set up to fuck over independant parties. Jesus, you remind me of the owner of that "Nazis are Fags" website. You capitalist americans are always saying that you hate communism because its not free, but then could you explain to me why you have set up millitary DICTATORSHIPS all over the world to oust DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED socialist governments?

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Capitalist on 10:29 pm on Jan. 12, 2002
Medical Research is very very expensive.

Doctors, Scientists, Lab Research, Trial & Error Research is not cheap. Most research never ever pays a dime.

How else are medical companies supposed to pay for such research?

They have every right to charge high prices.




You'd sing a diffrent tune if you had to eat cat food in order to afford your meds. It's inhumane to make a person choose between eating or taking their pills... or taking less amount than required... because "Someone has to pay for it"

Also... what CheG said... Exactly... they are all filthy rich... doctors make a ton of cash in amercia... turning caring for humans into a profitable busness.. where the patients and their families are extorted... to make the doctors wealthy people.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 1:25 am on Jan. 13, 2002)

[El Che]

exactly El Brujo, good points. However i dont recomend wasting your time replying to these idiots, it wont do any good. They uncapable of questioning the propangada they have bin thought, and lack the drive to educate them selves out of the cronic disgracefull ignorance problem they sufer from. So i wellcome you to this community and recomend you dont waste your time with such matters. There are also alot of interesting threads and people to discuss with.

[Son of Scargill]

wise words El Che~and welcome El Brujo

[El Che]

why are ~you~writting~ like this~? =)

[Son of Scargill]

my cheap communist key board is playing up~some keys don t work some only upper case
spent nearly an hour trying to sort it gave up worked out which keys work~best solution I could come up with without sounding like mclaren

[Moskitto]

"National SOCIALISM"

A quote by a British emigre who fled Nazi Germany to a group of Mosley supporters.

"It's not socialist, It's not a workers party, It's an extreme nationalist movement, You don't live in a dictatorship, you don't live in a country where your union leaders are locked up, you don't live in a country with a concentration camp outside every city, Not Yet At Least."

P.S. I posted that on a neo-nazi forum and they couldn't understand the concept of a "quote."

[El Che]

gald to see your still with us moskito.