United States World Power!

[Imperial Power]

Many of you seem to live in a fairy tale world and want the impossible. The commnist theory is flawed and those of you that believe in it are blinded with ignorance. Communism never has worked and never will work. You can say it hasn't existed in its most pure form, I don't care it's B.S. Most of you seem to be Limies with nothing better to do than criticize democracy. I think you all have personal problems and lack the drive to compete in a capitalistic world.

[koba]

ummm none of us critizized DEMOCRACY we are all FOR democracy....TRUE democracy which doesn't truly exist either. Your obviously ignorant on the subject but anyway .... Economically communism works and has been proven. The rest of the communistic idea's have never truly been applied. Oh and by the way its CAPITALISM we hate :)

get your facts straight, and then come and argue... at least proove what u say, and insults will get u no where.

[Son of Scargill]

Having spent 3 years of my life competing in the capitalist world(and I'll most likely get shit off some people for this) I can say that the system in the UK is serverely loaded towards the big players and their masonic and golf playing cronies.The way to succeed is through bribery,tax avoidance and/or illegal activities in order to gain enough money to make yourself look respectable down at the golf/country club.The easier way is to be born into money,that saves you the trouble of a few years scrimping and scraping in order to afford the car,the clothes,the golf clubs and the operation to remove any concern for anyone but yourself.The working classes obviously don't fall into the second catorgary,so the other option is to be a lying,cheating,self-serving,egotistical wanker(with an expensive lawyer).Admittedly,there is the occaisional success story,but(in the UK at least)of every 5000 small businesses started,4950 of them will go bust in 2 to 5 years.This is not just down to bad business practice(although some inevitably are),but down to the fact that big business feeds off the small businesses.Let the small guys undercut each other,they get phenomenally cheap deals.When one goes under,who cares?There will always be another sucker to come along and fill their shoes,dreaming the American,British,German,Your Country here....dream.The reality is that if your face doesn't fit,you're fucked..........capitalism?democracy?That's bullshit......
Btw,my business was making £250,000 pounds per annum after the second year(at least on paper).The cost of taking major companies to court cost a fortune,and the fuckers fought every inch of the way.I could have carried on,but I was not willing to sell my soul to any bank.Not then,not now,not ever.Living in the land of faeries maybe,but at least I'm not living as a capitalist,with the knowledge that I'm human scum.


Imperial Power?How apt..But read the history books,empires don't last forever.....Just hope you trigger happy cowboys don't take down the rest of the planet with your death throes.

[Michael]

"God bless the united states of america!"
I think I'm gonna cry with your signature...

[Renegade]

Don't cry Michael, god is damning them right now

[Kez]

We arnet actually against our working comrades in the usa, just the bastard government and its imperialism

TOWARDS REVOLUTION
comrade kamo

[Derar]

and against capitalist and racist americans ..........

also all sheeps ( blind americans ) must be educated , or else ........... killed !

[booga]

Quote: from Son of Scargill on 9:43 am on Jan. 4, 2002
Having spent 3 years of my life competing in the capitalist world(and I'll most likely get shit off some people for this) I can say that the system in the UK is serverely loaded towards the big players and their masonic and golf playing cronies.The way to succeed is through bribery,tax avoidance and/or illegal activities in order to gain enough money to make yourself look respectable down at the golf/country club.

son of scargill, wow that is incredible but believable. right now the internal revenue service (IRS) which is the most powerful government entity in the u.s. is making a move. the attorney bar association is backing the IRS up in the IRS attempt to offer corporations "incentive" to "reveal" sources up front. if the corps are willing to give up "shelter" houses then the IRS will most likey pardon them so to speak but has made it clear that they will have no mercy on anyone caught later on. hmm, makes me wonder... anyway the point is they are using methods they feel appropriate since they cannot apply the law to fight the stealing of money that belongs to the economy. i mean loop holes are okay only if they promote well being for the "people" not luxury living or for the promotion of evil destruction. by the way im still analyzing this one, i hope it makes sense.



(Edited by booga at 8:26 pm on Jan. 4, 2002)

[Zippy]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 2:58 am on Jan. 4, 2002
Many of you seem to live in a fairy tale world ...
If i did live in a fairy tale world, our schools wouldnt be underfunded and our hospitals wouldnt be falling apart.

No where did i park my horse and carriage ?

Zippy.

[revolutionary spirit]

i propose a motion to rename Imperial Power CNN's *****

[Zippy]

I second it. ;)

Zippy.

[Son of Scargill]

Booga,sounds like a good idea,but somehow I think most corporations will find ways to get around this.They're not stupid when it comes to avoiding their financial obligations.Furthermore,a lot of the corruption is involved in middle management(after all,CEO's don't tend to succumb to bribery,they're rich enough by that stage).These people will close ranks,and if they have to,they'll find scapegoats,people they consider expendable,or who don't quite fit into their scheme of things.Maybe it will make a difference,I hope so.But I'm not holding my breath.

(Edited by Son of Scargill at 8:33 pm on Jan. 4, 2002)

[Kez]

i motion we declare (the real) zippy king of mongolia

comrade kamo

[Freiheit]

In my new snowboard-magazine (canadian) was a advertisment "GOD BLESS AMERICA".

i got so angry, amna

[CommieBastard]

Hmm, methinks imperial power is a troll...

it really is funny tho, the way the majority of americans will go on about how they love democracy, and then tell everyone that they cant question their govt. LOL, man they really are blind....

the USA's motto should be "To protect freedom, we must destroy it", hell, it's not like everyone else cant hear it in every word they say anyway...

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Freiheit on 4:11 am on Jan. 5, 2002
In my new snowboard-magazine (canadian) was a advertisment "GOD BLESS AMERICA".

i got so angry, amna



around here there are still american flags everywhere showing our support for 9/11. its sickening. i can't stand it. we definately follow the US too much.

[flames of the flag]

what you do with the signs is scribble ou the bless and write in damn.that'll teach em.
IMp. power are you a federal agent here to keep an eye on us lefties? Anyways fuck off! i don't want to compete in a capitalist world, spending all my time working to recieve the highest possible wage and gain material wealth, that's stupid, life should be about more than that
Also i second the motion to rename imperial power cnn's *****, or maybe even wolf blitzer's sex slave (lol, watch that show up in the national inquirer)

[Zippy]

Quote: from CommieBastard on 2:51 pm on Jan. 5, 2002
Hmm, methinks imperial power is a troll...
Was it his terrible facial hair and bad breath that gave him away ?

Zippy.

[Imperial Power]

Zippy I believe you have me confused with your mother. All your responses confirm my theory that communists are simple minded and swept into it by fairy tale propaganda. I know that most of you get your news off antiamerica.com and The Communist Conspirator Daily, but that doesn't mean the TV networks are always wrong. Those of you trying to attack me don't any logical arguments to say against me so you attack what your afraid of, but thats ok with me if you want to call each other names. Some of you seem obsessed with this community maybe instead of sitting infront of the computer whinning that your rich neighbor isnt the same as you. Go and find a job so you can see the advantages of capitalism.

[libereco]

he is a troll...just ignore him.

[vox]

liberco is right, he's just a troll, and, of course, we all know the first rule of the Internet: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!

Unless, of course, they are amusing, and I found this to be amusing:


"Those of you trying to attack me don't any logical arguments to say against me so you attack what your afraid of, but thats ok with me if you want to call each other names."

How's that? "...to attack me don't any..?" What's that mean, anyway? Or this, "...attack what your afraid of..." Did it mean "you're afraid of," perhaps? And, of course, it ends a sentence with a preposition, though I too do that on occasion, so I won't kvetch.

Fact is, IP has said nothing. Nothing at all. Blustering blowhards seldom do, of course, though he's shown all of the qualifications (idiocy, pride, obedience) to be a good president of the United States of Atrocities.

So, let's have fun with him, and when he goes away, tail tucked between his legs, we won't miss him.

vox

[Conghaileach]

from vox:
"Those of you trying to attack me don't any logical arguments to say against me so you attack what your afraid of, but thats ok with me if you want to call each other names."

How's that? "...to attack me don't any..?" What's that mean, anyway? Or this, "...attack what your afraid of..." Did it mean "you're afraid of," perhaps? And, of course, it ends a sentence with a preposition, though I too do that on occasion, so I won't kvetch.I think he may have a martyr complex. He'll be on the boards and eventually we'll all get tired of him and we'll all be telling him to fuck off, then he can go back to his fascist friends and tell them how he attempted to talk some sense into the commies but was banned or whatever. Quite sad really.

[Imperial Power]

Someone tell me how socialism would work on a world wide scale. I need a good laugh.

[Imperial Power]

Vox in the future I'll have my posts edited by the English Department so that you can understand them.

[ComradeFubar]

Imperial Power u come onto this board slinging shit and then u keep going on about crap that u cant even back up with evidence...and then u have the nerve to tell us to explain how socialism/communism would work on a world scale...look around u fool there is plenty of information for u on this board and on the internet...it just shows how blind u are from all those years of "American Histroy" classes and CNN live..so blind u dont even know were to look for information

[ComradeFubar]

Imperial Power u come onto this board slinging shit and then u keep going on about crap that u cant even back up with evidence...and then u have the nerve to tell us to explain how socialism/communism would work on a world scale...look around u fool there is plenty of information for u on this board and on the internet...it just shows how blind u are from all those years of "American Histroy" classes and CNN live..so blind u dont even know were to look for information

[Imperial Power]

ComradeFubar was so mad he said it twice.

[ComradeFubar]

repetion is a good way of getin ur point across....
repetion is a good way of getin ur point across:):)
repetion is a good way of getin ur point across....
repetion is a good way of getin ur point across:):)

[gooddoctor]

imperial power you little creep, tell me to go get a job why don't you! what, you don't think socialists work? you don't think we can succeed in life? i myself am at one of the best universities in the world, i went to an american private school in germany. in between i worked in a factory. i am part of your fucking elite so don't come in here and spout bullshit. this isn't the place for being personal, it's for decent discussion. and none of your racism either little troll, you might not like english people, but i suggest you go there and find out for yourself, go on, see what life's like for people living outside america. find out about us too before spewing your prejudice at us, you will find that most of the people here, from all over the world, are only interested in communism from an historical point of view, where despite the fascist politics of so-called communist regimes in the past, we want to learn from something that obviously has a lot to offer ordinary people in a world that is far from perfect and could be a lot better. look around you, are you satisfied with the world, all the war, the hunger, the poverty, our degraded environment. something is definitely wrong there. the socialist economy in the past has proved to be miraculous, and perhaps we can use some of the principles socialism espouses to make people's lives here better. peace, human rights, the environment, worker's rights, mass media, public services, free health care, access to education, public transport, the welfare state, these are all social institutions. but what does the average american know about these things? capitalism threatens us all. your forefathers didn't understand what capitalism would become, that it would allow the most powerful nation on earth to impose its perverted culture on the entire world, subjecting the developing world to the most evil of empires. extremes of anything kill people, and so too does capitalism in its millions. the only place for americans to come into contact with issues such as these is in forums like this, where people can exchange ideas freely, people who are sick of hearing corporate propaganda all day on our tvs telling us that everything's going to be fine, just go about your everyday lives, don't question, and the people you voted for will serve your best interests. is this really happening? fuck off! people have to question, that's democracy, we're exercising our rights here, but then again that's another thing you or your evil empire don't seem particularly interested in. ask yourself sheep, who's the naive one? you think you know everything? oh i don't know why i waste my time.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 11:53 am on Jan. 7, 2002)

[Nickademus]

i agree with the gooddoctor. you imperial power do not know us. many of us do have jobs and are forced to live in the capitalist world and it sure as hell isn't doing me any good. the capitalist world has made me a slave to money. by the time i am done school i will be $100, 000 CAD in debt. thank you capitalism. i've worked in many types of jobs but know it is not what i am capable of. but why should i be forced to go so far into debt when im not doing what i'm doing for the money. i'm doing what i'm doing to help people why can't they help me for a while and get me through school?

anyway i rant and i'm going to be late.

[El Che]

execlente post goddoctor.

[Imperial Power]

Gooddoctor I must thank you for the laugh you gave me; I have never been called a sheep.

[El Che]

instead of laughing try listening to him, better yet try conter arguementing him lol

[gooddoctor]

no problemo. today, on this planet of 6 billion human beings, 2 billion people live on less than two dollars a day, one million people are on the verge of starvation, 1 in 8 americans is born into poverty as defined by the un (as opposed to 1 in 3 in the uk), less than 1% of the planet's population goes to university, our ice caps will melt this century unless something is done (but bush just rejected the kyoto protocol which regulates carbon emissions, but that's okay because he says it's in "the best interests of the american people"), around 30 wars are raging across our planet, roughly equal to the amount of countries the us has bombed since ww2. while all this is going on, wealth is flowing away from the poor countries towards the rich, this happens on a national scale as well. basically, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, and this leads to death, pestilence and misery on a grand scale. of course capitalism isn't the only problem, but it does make it worse and prevents people who genuinely have an interest in improving lives from doing their job, charity and aid workers, human rights campaigners and suchlike. that's just shit on a global scale, back home it's easy to forget and laugh when you're down the pub, but we are facing problems too. in mid-december i attended a 100,000 strong trades union march in brussels, belgium at the european summit meeting. we were protesting against a neo-liberal policy in europe that is attempting to remove all the laws that protect ordinary citizens from the extremes of capitalism through deregulation and privitisation. they cheapen public services, and threaten people's livelyhoods. the demo was supported by the english and scottish trades unions so i decided to go because i'm tired of all the bullshit. but how do people find out about this kind of thing? they can't because our source of information, the media, is controlled by capitalists. that doesn't mean it's all bad, some individual journalists do still respect the truth, but others are just interested in their careers and cynical corporations control exactly what we think. in a bid to sell more papers they report on big flashy events and appeal to people's prejudices rather than focusing on real issues. rupert murdoch alone, that friendly old-school capitalist, controls 35% of newspapers in the uk, whatever he says goes and he owes a lot of favours to a lot of very powerful people. trust me, i would like to go into journalism when i graduate, and the industry is ugly and corrupt. our governments are trying to sell out our health and education services too, in order to raise short term funds and transfer responsibility, but this is all an illusion because when something goes wrong, it's the government who has to clean up. you can see this in british railways where the company responsible for track up-keep fucked up and went bust, and now the government has to use our money to make it safe again. furthermore, even the air we breathe is poison because it is cheaper for factories to disregard environmental regulations than it is to pay the fines for leaking toxic fumes into our air. also, corporations are trying to force us to eat genetically modified produce, which seems harmless enough, but is untested and can cause cancer. have you ever wondered what's in a big mac? fucking poison that's what! america has the single largest problem with cancer because it is the most polluted country on earth and people eat shit. god bless the american people and america, but your government, and ours, is corrupt and something's got to be done. you could just say "oh well, that's life, face it", but then war, hunger, poverty and misery will continue and it doesn't have to be that way, we can make a difference. however, if the american empire continues to spread in its present form, things will only get worse for us, but better for a tiny elite. i am in a position where i can really help make people's lives better, to use the great opportunities that i've been given in life to make sure that less fortunate people get the same opportunities. i'm not interested in your rat race, that empty life holds no interest for me.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 5:39 pm on Jan. 8, 2002)


(Edited by gooddoctor at 5:40 pm on Jan. 8, 2002)

[ComradeFubar]

ha imperial power what do u have to say about that!

Exelent post Doc, ud make a very good journo

[booga]

gooddoctor with everything you speak i am afraid the world has maybe gone terribly wrong some how, despite so many sacrafices and attempts to make it a better place. are we now to face those consequences of our errors or will we keep the spirit alive of great revolutionaries that once lived on earth?

"power to the people" my friend is that just another "fallacy". are we all not in bondage of the law? have we let hate rule instead of love?

if power to the people is just another propaganda then i stand in favor of "enpowerment" in which i believe all men of all class will benefit. yet how do we begin?

best to you

[Imperial Power]

Gooddoctor one thing that I strongly believe in and socialism denies, is freedom. The freedom to choose what you want to do, the freedom to say what you want. As you saw in the USSR as soon as freedoms of speech were passed the system began to collapse. Socialism may look good on paper but it oppreses the common man in the long run. You say you want to be journalist, how would you like it if the state decided it's in the people's best interest if they had more farmers or brick layers. Would you be content with doing something you didn't want to do your whole life? The socialist system is flawed in these ways. As you see have seen in Cuba the peasants and poor farmers strongly supported Guevaras gurillas and the first year or the Honey Moon of the revolution was great, but when reality hits you see the results. The economic system would have failed in Cuba long ago except now Castro uses the U.S dollar to keep his country afloat.

[libereco]

go read a definition of socialism.

it seems you're talking about authorianism or totalitarianism in your above post.

[Imperial Power]

Renegade what is your home country, I too would like a flag hung upside down of it.

[Markxs]

cuba is a s-american country ppl get 5 years older then in any other wrecked by capitalist country. no one wants to trade with cuba because of the embargo due to u$a. so castro is not helped by the dollar !

[ComradeFubar]

ahh IP yet again when faced by a question veers away and ask some what country there from so he can hang there flag upside down...i'll laugh so hard if they tell IP dere from the U.S..lol :)

[Son of Scargill]

I'm from England and I'd love to hang the cross of St.George upside down to diss my country.Oh!Hang on,it wouldn't make any difference.........shit,we can't even do that in this crappy country.

Time to get the matches I think!



(Edited by Son of Scargill at 1:34 pm on Jan. 9, 2002)

[gooddoctor]

thanks comrades, it's true though imperial power when libereco says you are talking about fascism . freedom of speech is important and will be upheld in a parliamentary democracy like america or the uk, whether socialism or capitalism is the basis for the economy. russia never had parliamentary democracy or free speech, and that's why russia failed, because the soviet powermongers were really just fascists in disguise, and the soviet regime was a form of state capitalism. politically, stalinism was worse than nazism, it killed more people anyway, but it wasn't communism despite the propaganda. it wasn't socialism that caused death and misery in russia, it was stalin and his bloody purges, the gulags, the widespread political corruption, the lack of democracy, wealth distribution and freedom of speech. marx mentioned nothing of these things in the communist manifesto, they were all the inventions of stalin in his "dictatorship of the proleteriat" which was basically just stalinist dictatorship. on paper, communism frees people, if that doesn't happen in reality then it's not communism, but that's besides the point. the argument between socialism and capitalism is mainly an economic one, politics are only used for propaganda purposes, like red scare and maccarthyism in the states. some aspects of the soviet economy were organised along socialist lines and they proved to be a great success. after the revolution in 1917, the communists took power from despotic tsarists who treated the people like pawns and sent millions to their deaths in ww1. the country was in ruins, what little industry there was was producing weapons, the basis of the economy was agrarian, the education system was non-existent, there were no human rights and people were starving. the red army spent the next few years fighting a civil war against tsarist factions and foreign armies, leading to more death, ruin and misery. however, by the end of ww2 russia was a world superpower, some industry was growing faster than the us, their army was america's equal, anyone had the right to go to university, they even put the first man in space. but individuals held too much power and power always corrupts which is why democracy must be spread as far amongst the people as possible. there was great wealth in russia thanks to the socialist economy, but fascists ran the politburo and so this great wealth wasn't redistributed and used to improve people's lives. this is happening under capitalism too, especially in the us. perhaps we can learn something from the russians, and indeed we did because in the uk in 1945 the national health service was established, the first in the world and pride of the english economy. until thatcher, we also had nationalised public transport, education, energy, telecommunications, steel and coal. these industries are currently in the process of being sold off to the private sector and the dangers of this move have already become apparent in every case. public services have been cheapened, prices have gone up and people's jobs are threatened. socialism doesn't eliminate capitalism, but when the social costs of production become too high it does temper it. in all societies there should be a good mix between socialism and capitalism in an economy, but when capitalism becomes too powerful and democracy is threatened it can wipe out socialism and then the people have no protection, just like in soviet russia.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 3:30 pm on Jan. 9, 2002)

[Zippy]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 1:04 am on Jan. 6, 2002
Zippy I believe you have me confused with your mother.
My mother is a man ?

Zippy.

[HardcoreCommie]

Gooddoctor I agree with you on most things, but what the hell is this:

"on paper, communism frees people, if that doesn't happen in reality then it's not communism"

Wait I remember it's a tautology, circular logic. The kind of thing that won't convince people with brains.

[CommieBastard]

it is very simple hardcore 'commie' (altho you really do seem to constantly be raising questions as to the accuracy of that name).
Communism is a principle of freedom, if someone claims they are communists and dont give freedom, then they arent really communists. comprendé?


Also, about this whole flag thing, as far as im concerned that guy could hang the flags of every country in the world upside down, and i really wouldnt give a toss, because i owe allegiance to no nation.

[HardcoreCommie]

What I'm pointing out is that a statement like that will only alienate you from sensible people that you would like to convince.

[CommieBastard]

what, you mean an argument that some people lie?
come on, it's no less sensible than saying that if i call myself a capitalist, and then go round saying we should nationalise everything, it's pretty obvious i'm a liar. Stalin was no different, he had fascist policies and called himself a communist. If he oppresses people, and removes freedoms, then he simply isnt a communist, merely a fascistic pseudo-socialist egotistical power-mad tyrant

[HardcoreCommie]

tautology, something that is true by virtue of being stated. to say that because communism is supposed to be liberating, but because it hasn't liberated anybody it wasn't communism is such a statement. It's like saying god is everywhere. Why? because he is god.

[El Che]

You make no sence HardcoreCapitalist, however you do display your ignorance very nicely

[CommieBastard]

err, no, i will think you will find that that is not the case.
the two are completely different.
nowhere in my statement do i say it is true because it is true.
Communism is not simply 'supposed' to be liberating, it is the idea of creating a totally liberated society. Therefore, if an organisation that calls itself communist creates a society that is not in fact, a totally liberated society, that is in fact, not in holding with the society identified by marx, and in fact is not whatsoever in any way actually communist... then i think it is fair to say it ISNT communist...

you seem to actually be thinking that there has ever been a succesful communist force, you seem to be under the assumption that if something calls itself communist then it is communist.

Take this for example. I state that all eggs have inside them yoke which is held in by a shell. Someone else then comes along and says, "look at this egg i have here!" holding aloft a melon. I say, "that is not an egg, for it has no yoke inside, and has not got an outer shell." the person holding aloft the melon is a stalinist, claiming that he has an egg, when in fact what he has is a completely different thing.

[HardcoreCommie]

geez, have you been following this...my initial objection was to gooddoctor's statement. I agreed with most of it, but no this:

on paper, communism frees people, if that doesn't happen in reality then it's not communism"

Dammit cb, you can go spouting that sort of illogical shit all over, thing is no one except people like you are going to buy it. That's no way to change the system.

[libereco]

but....he is right and it's totally logical.


when by definition communisim includes that the people have power, and a force takes the power from the people claiming to be communist.....then they are not. They don't fit the definition of it.

whats so hard to understand about that?

[HardcoreCommie]

shit, it is logical, but it is a tautology, it is what is called circular logic. Yes it is very logical, doesn't make it right, or helpful.

[CommieBastard]

and one question, WHAT is no way to change the system?
i kind of dont notice at any point my proposing a method of bringing about the change....

[CommieBastard]

oh ffs, it is perfectly right, and not circular at all.
look at the analogy about the egg and the melon, i suppose next you are going to say that my claiming that a melon isnt an egg because it has no yoke or shell is incorrect too are you?

[HardcoreCommie]

christ i hate resorting to the dictionary but you forced me to.

Tautology: statement that is true by virtue of its logical form alone.

gooddoctor's statement:
"on paper, communism frees people, if that doesn't happen in reality then it's not communism"

That is a tautology.

[CommieBastard]

it is true in it's physical form too, want me to go over it again?

[Moskitto]

The most sensible definition for a communist state by a non-communist i've seen is.

"A state with a centrally planned economy which justifies it's means by quoting marx."

He went on to compare Christianity which much of it has nothing to do with Jesus with communism which he said that much of it has nothing to do with Marx.

Also this definition excludes places like Nicaragua and in reality it fitted his terms for "limited democracy" in 1982 and "multiparty democracy" in 1988.

[CommieBastard]

hmm, and let me see what my dictionary has to say...
Logic - a statement that is always true, esp. a truth-functional expression that takes the value true for all combinations of values of it's components, as in either the sun is out or the sun is not out.
now let me see, is good doctors statement a tautology, yes, because it is true.
oh so you were right. but wait a second, werent you saying that it being a tautology was some kind of criticism? that maybe, it made it in some way not true? that it in fact made it only true in some kind of abstract sense, but not in a real sense?

[Markxs]

communism is true on paper and true in reality. but power corrupts ppl, therefore communism has never been there totally. ( first years in cuba were good so i heard ) now oppression of thoughts is also in cuba, ( sometimes capitalism affects communism )

cuba is stilll way better then usa !!!!!!

[libereco]

Quote: from HardcoreCommie on 9:15 pm on Jan. 9, 2002
christ i hate resorting to the dictionary but you forced me to.

Tautology: statement that is true by virtue of its logical form alone.

gooddoctor's statement:
"on paper, communism frees people, if that doesn't happen in reality then it's not communism"

That is a tautology.




"on paper democracy is when the people have the power. if the people don't have the power, it is not a democracy."

alright, this is just another example for goddoctors way of arguing with a different example.

so how is this a tautioligy or whatever.....i don't see it. there is no circular logic there...

if something doesn't fit the definition of Object A, then it most likely is not Object A.....eh?

[HardcoreCommie]

well your dictionary sucks. Because we all know that there are logical statements called syllogisms which are quite often false. They, like tautologies are examples of logical phallacies (as my feminists friends say). Listen if it were that easy, to live life according to logical precepts, it would've been done. Unfortunately logic doesn't hold all the answers.

There was this big debate once, before your time, and mine actually. Well all these smart guys were *****ing at each other regarding natural science and empiricism, as proposed by people like Bacon, and rationalism as proposed by descartes. Well neither side won really. Today we use both, because both have their faults.

so logic always works, let me prove it to you.

dogs have four legs (P is true)

a chair has four legs (Q is true)

this chair must be a dog (R is false)

ah logic, the answer to all of reality's solutions.

[libereco]

well yes that is wrong logig because you only look at one aspect of two object and equal them. That doesn't work.

the point is that what goddoctor said is not wrong applied logic...

[libereco]

lets use you're argumentation...

a chair has four legs (lets just assume that is essential for a chair and always true).

then if an object doesn't have four legs it obviously is not a chair.

[CommieBastard]

i beleive that your statements there about dogs and chairs are in fact illogical, as you would have to build into those statements a statement such as:

All four legged objects are dogs (p is true)
chairs have four legs (q is true)
but then again, then p wouldnt be true.

you see:
communism must always include all of freedom, equality and democracy (a is true)
stalinism, and the USSR, had none, it is commuinism (b is false)
tada, very simple, you see?
no contradiction, very obserable with physical evidence (gulags, poverty for most people while stalin was rich, lacks of freedoms)

and, as my dictionary says, tautologies are not logical phallacies, they are in fact, logical truths...

and no, i agree, logic doesnt hold all the answers, but in this case, it is correct, stalinism, since it does not fulfil the requirements of communism, is NOT communism.

[HardcoreCommie]

let me put it to you another way.

Capitalism is supposed to provide for freedom, equality of opportunity, and wealth proportionate to factors of production put in. If it doesn't then it's not capitalism.

Then I say wait lookeee! africa has no capitalism, and you say yes it does. But wait, I have a tautology that says capitalism is supposed to have these characteristics.

You see the problem with your tautology is that the basic premise is not necessarily true. It is not true that the characteristics you proposed are inherrent in communism. Why is it not true despite the fact that we think it is. Well because truth is in large part a social construct ( Hobbes thought it was all a social construct), and society as a whole, the majority of it, does not agree that communism is supposed to provide for freedom and all the other stuff.

So like I said you might believe it, but you're not going to change anybodies mind with such a statement.

What you need to do is show how communism will provide for those good things rather than saying it does. Right now you put yourself in a situation where people ask "how does communism make the world better" and you reply in short 'because it says it does'

[ComradeFubar]

will ya shut da fuck up!!!!!!!!..
no one cares about this logic crap debate..
Look its simple communism has not existed anywhere in da world and wont exist for quite awhile unfortunatley.
:(

So just leave the disscusion as is without this craping on about some Bacon dude and all dat crap..its noit a friggin philosphy forum Hardcorecommie

[Imperial Power]

Gooddoctor I would still like to hear your response about being assigned to a job you don't want to. Someone said power corrupts people and that can't be more true. Freedoms will not be protected in government with too much power. I also find it funny that some of you have Anarchy symbols for your sign. Is that not the complete and far opposite of communism. Your going from almost total government control to having no government at all.

[libereco]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 2:14 am on Jan. 10, 2002
Gooddoctor I would still like to hear your response about being assigned to a job you don't want to. Someone said power corrupts people and that can't be more true. Freedoms will not be protected in government with too much power. I also find it funny that some of you have Anarchy symbols for your sign. Is that not the complete and far opposite of communism. Your going from almost total government control to having no government at all.

it's both socialist. We share many views.
there are hardly any authoriatrian commies here.

Also the exact opposite to Anarchy is Fascism. (just so you know)

[RedCeltic]

ha ha ha ha ha... Imperial Power thinks everyone here is a communist... newsflash.. this is a leftist forum... not strictly a Marxist-Leninist forum... all leftists are welcome here yes even Anarchists...

By the way... you know as little about Anarchy as you do Socialism.

[ComradeFubar]

u fooL imperial facist power....u do not ahve a clue wad ur talking about....

im lmao right now about ur post and besides jst coz i have da symbol dosent exactly mean im a full fleged anarchist...besides anarchism and commumisim are preaty much da same

[Imperial Power]

O yeah I guess I just thought Che was Communist and this site was about Che. So I though there would be communists here. Silly me

[RedCeltic]

Oh yea right... everyone here is a carbon copy of Che...:o

[CheGuevara]

Not to defend a capitalist shit like Imperial Power, but it's not unreasonable for a newcomer to expect that this a Che Guevara board NOT be FILLED with NAMBY PAMBY HIPPIE PACIFISTS.

[RedCeltic]

Who are you calling a NAMBY PAMBY HIPPIE PACIFIST... you militant jerk.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 6:11 am on Jan. 10, 2002
Not to defend a capitalist shit like Imperial Power, but it's not unreasonable for a newcomer to expect that this a Che Guevara board NOT be FILLED with NAMBY PAMBY HIPPIE PACIFISTS.
A pacifist is someone who believes that war is NEVER the answer. A pacifist would probably not admire Che too much. Most people, however, acknowledge that war is the only option in some cases but try to achieve their goals through nonviolent means whenever possible.

By the way, no generation idolized Che more than the hippies. In the 60's he was more popular than either presidential candidate in America. One of many famous Abbie Hoffman quotes refers to Che Guevara. Jerry Rubin interviewed him. The hippies supported the wars that Che fought, and were only really established pacifists when it came to getting America out of Vietnam, which is a cause I'm guessing you would support, too.

[RedCeltic]

Imperial Power... CheGuevara is the kind of militant commie you expected this board to be full of. While many of us here believe in fighting through peaceful protests, strikes, elections etc... militants like CheGuevara think we should go out and murder people.

[CheGuevara]

You and your ilk. There must be a DSA forum somewhere on the web for you, Celtic.

[RedCeltic]

Am I not welcome here anymore? I didn't realise you ran this board.



(Edited by RedCeltic at 1:11 am on Jan. 10, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

No, sorry, I forgot you did with your 1000+ posts. Do you get out at all during the day? With all those posts, I'm amazed you actually have time to attend your protests and such...or do you?

[El Che]

quote from imperial ignorance
I also find it funny that some of you have Anarchy symbols for your sign. Is that not the complete and far opposite of communism.

now see i dont get paid to you educate you, but since im not an evil capitalist like your distinict self i will do you this service free of charge =)

You your self almost find the answer to the very question that bables your mind, if i didnt know any better i would say this shows some inteligence... you think *there are anarchists here?* *but thats the oposite of the strong single party states that are the so called comunists* *hmm strange* Well yup you are right my friend. And do you know wat the answer to the enigma is? those states like USSR or china are in fact fare right wing states in every caracteristic execpt in name, and the name means nothing. They are in fact authoritarian fashist regimes, the left is not authoritarian nore fashist. I know you will have trouble coming to terms with this fact because it is the denile of the things that you have bin told and hold as true. Never the less it is the truth. What you identify as comunism is in fact not comunism but right wing fashism, and that is the reason you see true comunists, socialists and anarchists here in relative harmony and in reletive acordance in various issues. Marx infact predicted the final stage of comunism to be infact a type of anachist comunism of self run communities. There is not strong state no lake of freedom but rather quite the very oposite, as oposite as you can abstractly imagine it to be. This is the type of comunism i might subscribe to.


If you want to know about all these systems what they propose and what they are about you must study the philosophical theories behind them, if you do not do this you are not qualified to speak of them. Neither in favor nore against them you just cant talk about it because you dont know what your talking about. Despite what you might think these are not simple matters. Giving my self as an example, i can say that i read alot and not casual reading but study, like you would study a difficult subject in school. Great thinkers spend there lives dueling on these issues. With all my reading, effort and time spent i recognise that i know close to nothing of such matters and am not very sure of many statements i make. So be a little bit more humble and understand that you dont own the truth, respect other peoples views and dont talk trash. Study the subject before you criticise it.

(Edited by El Che at 2:12 pm on Jan. 10, 2002)

[El Che]

hmm and guys lets not fight amongst our selves! we all share the same goal and have a common enemy so lets not focuss on our differences! that is wat always brings down the left in the end! lets stand united.

[El Che]

CheGuevarra companhero where are you from? i gather you must be latin american. Hablas espanhol camarada?

[Imperial Power]

El Che let me get this straight. Communism is from the right? I think that you are a minority on that view. Then again I do not spend hours a day studying politics so let me in on your theory,

[libereco]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 12:43 am on Jan. 11, 2002
El Che let me get this straight. Communism is from the right? I think that you are a minority on that view. Then again I do not spend hours a day studying politics so let me in on your theory,

many states that call themselves communist and maybe even were formed after communist revolutions are fascist (wich i guess is right).

[Moskitto]

Actually in western Europe you'll generally find amoungst most well educated people that they see communism as

"it's a good idea, it's just an idea that'll never work"

not

"communism is totally evil and is a more evil version of fascism which was designed to be evil"

[CheGuevara]

No, de veras no soy de América Latina, pero hablo algún castellano. *Vivo en Nueva Jersey, y he vivido aquí por toda mi vida. *

[Nickademus]

Quote: from HardcoreCommie on 7:03 pm on Jan. 9, 2002
tautology, something that is true by virtue of being stated. to say that because communism is supposed to be liberating, but because it hasn't liberated anybody it wasn't communism is such a statement. It's like saying god is everywhere. Why? because he is god.


terribly sorry hardcore commie but you're wrong. its not circular logic (and don't worry i know what i'm talking about, i've studied logic in my philosophy courses in undergrad university). what it is is simply pointing out that people are using the definition of communism and socialism incorrectly.

that is NOT circular logic. sorry to prove you wrong

[Nickademus]

che guevera. first of all redceltic is one of the most intelligent people on this board and he is rightfully welcome to this board. i don't know where you get off calling people such things when you really don't know any of us. we may appear to be pacificists on this board and we may post a lot but we may also be doing a lot of stuff outside of this board. you have no clue.

imperial power there are communists on this board but there are also marxists, socialists, anarchists and those of us who fit somewhere else in there.

oi, what has this board become?!

[CheGuevara]

So you're not wishy washy pacifists, and you're really hardcore revolutionaries? A thousand apologies, "comrades" ;) Ha ha ha.

[Son of Scargill]

CheG,grab a gun and go out on the streets of New Joisey,see how long your revolution lasts.......there's times&places for revolution,but meanwhile people have to fight within the system just to keep the bastards in check.

(Edited by Son of Scargill at 11:50 am on Jan. 11, 2002)

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 6:18 am on Jan. 11, 2002
So you're not wishy washy pacifists, and you're really hardcore revolutionaries? A thousand apologies, "comrades" ;) Ha ha ha.



stop being an ass . .. . you're only making enemies

[El Che]

che guevarra if you are not latin american then i do not understand your position. If you where from latin america or any other third world nation it would be folish for me to tell you that violent revolution is not the way because once you go against the majority you`ll have to use a fashist like state to remain in power which in the end will lead to nothing. But the extreme situations of poverty and misery in the third world mean that the only possible action is a decisive one, and revolution has its viability although it will ultimatly fail.

But if you are a US citizen then what do you think is the apropriate course of action? to try and make a revolution? lol. No thats defenitly not the way, the way is to join a party and work with the sistem like redceltic does. Its your only choise and even if it where not your only option it would always be the more reasonable and the best option.

[gooddoctor]

imperial power, it's the fact that our goverments are so weak because they are transfering power to the corporations that our democracy is being threatened. a strong government is needed to protect democracy and ordinary people from powermongers and fascists. true, if the goverment is too strong it can use its power for evil, but when will that happen in the west? it won't because we are civilisation (supposedly) and our western-style democracy will ensure that power is always shared between the weak and the strong so that there is some balance. however, our major concern is, how much power the strong corporations should hold, and this is a political question which should be decided by the people of the west, not the powerful corporations who control our governments and our politicians who are seemingly unconcerned about selling out. corporations are undemocratic, concerned only with profits and market share. but profit is not the only output from production, there are social and environmental costs and benefits to consider too. if society is run by the corporations then social and environmental costs and benefits will be side-lined for the sake of profit, and profit only benefits a select few, the capitalist elite. however, social and environmental costs, such as high unemployment or pollution are all of our problems, but a capitalist economy will ensure that they are not addressed. don't forget, capitalism didn't deliver human rights or freedom, democratic politicians such as washington, cromwell and lincoln did by fighting wars not for personal glory or some abstract ideal, but just to make people a little freer. after all revolutions there have always been people who have assumed too much power and used it for evil, just like stalin in russia. in the west, capitalism, like stalinism, threatens the opportunity they have given us to lead our own lives and chose our own paths. after all, capitalism is just a way of organising the economy, but it is increasingly becoming a threatening political force too. the economy (including workers who are simply another piece of equipment) is owned by the capitalist elite, and is used for the benefit of the capitalist elite. under socialism the economy is organised differently. all people own the means of production, like in the british nhs or education, and so workers are free to reap the benefits of their work themselves. the decision over the different levels of socialism and capitalism in our economies is purely a political debate. the best political system is parliamentary democracy because noone can assume too much power under it. so, our elected politicians must decide the mix of socialism and capitalism for us, and most of the time what's best for ordinary people isn't their main concern. sometimes their careers are more important, and their careers lie in the hands of the corporations that brought them to power. that's when socialists must step in and say no. some people i know would call themselves capitalists, but they never will be. i have known capitalists in the past, at private school for instance a kid in my history class inherited an airline when his grandfather died. he was lucky, but most people i know who call themselves capitalists are wrong in doing so - they are just capitalist sympathisers, and will always, no matter how hard they try, be just workers, like you, me and everyone else.

on the subject of che, he was never a communist, he never carried a party id card. he despised the soviets and the chinese. he was an independant socialist and free from the chains of both the fascist-communist left and the capitalist right which is why i respect him.

on the tautology question, what i said is patently true. furthermore, i believe that it will always be true, that communism, extreme socialism, will always just be an idea and never be reality until someone comes up with a decent way of bringing it about. violent revolution breeds fascism, that has been true in the past and will continue to ring true in the future. violence only hurts ordinary people, our political arguements should stay in parliament. the cause of socialism will be furthered there or nowhere.

and che, stop being a bastard.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 3:19 pm on Jan. 11, 2002)

[El Che]

quote from gooddoctor
it's the fact that our goverments are so weak because they are transfering power to the corporations that our democracy is being threatened.

exactly. Good post, as always.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Son of Scargill on 1:46 am on Jan. 11, 2002
CheG,grab a gun and go out on the streets of New Joisey,see how long your revolution lasts.......there's times&places for revolution,but meanwhile people have to fight within the system just to keep the bastards in check.

(Edited by Son of Scargill at 11:50 am on Jan. 11, 2002)


Exactly my point.. Tino Rozzo who recently ran for Govorner of NJ did more for the cause by running in, and loosing an election, than CheG would by grabing a gun and running through the streets of Newark.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:23 am on Jan. 11, 2002)

[gooddoctor]

yes, noone wants to see violence or hassle in society, we just want to get on with our lives. when i go shopping and look around the mall i see faceless corporations destroying our environment, forcing our comrades abroad to work in sweat shops, high prices, crap products that'll be out of date next month, cynical marketing ploys making people buy shit they don't need with money they don't have, etcetera. it's all bullshit i know, but i can't very well imagine myself storming through on thursday evening late night shopping, rifle in hand following a red banner, could anyone else imagine it where they live? of course, if you are already being attacked then you have a right to defend yourself if your life depends on it. but i don't know any western country where people's lives are arbitrarily threatened by force. there needs to be change, but if the means to make the change makes people's lives worse in the short-run then it is not viable, just like the war in afghanistan. people are way more important than any political ideal and you can't just treat them like pawns. ends do not justify the means, and as soon as people realise that there will be no more september 11.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 3:48 pm on Jan. 11, 2002)

[Imperial Power]

I have noticed 2 things.

1) Gooddoctor refuses to comment on organized labor and the idea of being assigned a job.

2) No one has explained to me why communism is from the right as one of you said.

Gooddoctor will probable write another novel that skips around the direct question.

(Edited by Imperial Power at 8:13 pm on Jan. 11, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

I never was an advocate of rioting, i.e. running through the streets with a gun. That's pretty stupid. Maybe you coffeehouse pacifist socialists, sipping your lattes, can afford to relax and wait for something that's not goign to happen, but others can't.

[Nickademus]

imperial power, i dont understand what the second thing is you are expecting us to comment on

cheguevara --- what do you advocate?

[CheGuevara]

I advocate armed revolution.

[El Che]

lol imperial power i didnt say comunism is from the right, what i said was what you think is comunism is not and that is what is from the right. understand?

[CommieBastard]

HardcoreCommie, Capitalism is not an ideology which has a carefully constructed set of ideals which it lays out as the way a system should work, thus, you talk bs.

[Capitalist]

Imperial Power, you are upstaging me!

Funny how these leftist idiots claim we have no evidence or basis for anything we say.

I'd like to see all the evidence that indicates the great benefits of Communism.

They always come up with the same reply
- "Fidel is not really Communist, he is Fascist",

- or "Stalin was a Psuedo-Communist (The same Stalin admired so greatly by Che Guevara)"

- or this is the best - "There has never truly been a communist nation yet."

Blah - Blah - Blah -

It is so easy to argue with them. I find it quite enjoyable to prove them wrong every single time.

[Nickademus]

CheGuevara

so you don't believe in exhausting all other means first? even che realized armed revolution wouldn't work unless people had lost faith in the legal and political system of the time. that is in my view, a large reason why his last attempt at revolution was a failure.

seriously, i want to debate this with you, i'm not trying to call you names or anything. i'm into serious discussion.

[libereco]

no you are an idiot, and you come here and say the same stuff over and over again.

Most people by now have gotten sick to explaining the same things to you all the time Mr. Capitalist!

You don't even respond to posts when someone proves you wrong. It's silly.

You don't even have the slightest idea about the Ideologie of Socialism, and you don't really know what Capitalism is either it seems.
I don't see any reason to waste anymore energy on you.

[El Che]

capitalist you are infuriating me. i am try my best not to insult the fuck out of you but its going to be really hard if you keep saying the bullshit your saying! my god. Why do we have to take this crap? i dont know if i want to subject my self to this insult! stupidity! and ignorance! arrogance. This is not a state you know? its a fucking bb. If we banned someone we arent repressing freedom of speach... If your walking down the streat and some jackass comes up to you and starts talking alot of shit insulting your beliefs, or if you are having a conversation with your friends in a coffee shop and some idiot buds in and starts saying communism is this and that and it doesnt work and it killed 10000000 people etc etc etc. you dont have to take it do you? you can chose who you want to talk to and thats not limiting anyones freedom os speach! i just dont care about there bullshit. If this keeps up like this im sorry but im just going to bugger off.

[peaccenicked]

Capitalist, only are you an idiot you are a liar, not only
did che not like Stalin . He did not like the USSR. You are
just here to heap shite on us. I personally could spend some time sorting out your mental problems, I am that nice, but you would in end up in your usually hidey hole
or sectioned in a mental ward. Why don't you seek help for sadism and masochism because you are not doing anything else here.

[libereco]

oh and by about armed revolution.

Every attempt of armed revolution at this point in the USA would be fucking ridiculous.
You are not backed by the people. If you don't open their eyes first all you'd do (in case you suceed, hah) that you dictate the other people your own will of a minority.

The people are supposed to overthrow a government, not some people who claim to act in the peoples will.

[I Will Deny You]

CheG, you "advocate armed revolution." So did the real Che Guevara. And, as you may have noticed, he isn't around anymore. Why? He did not pick his battles well enough. I admire him, but he was a human and not a G-d. Che advocated armed revolution. (Actually, he went a step further and actually STARTED an armed revolution. Tell me, CheG, are you in a Marxist militia in Trenton?) Che tried to start armed revolutions in two countries that did not want armed revolutions, and if he hadn't he might still be alive. (Notice that the CIA has not yet hurt Castro, embargoes and exploding cigars and all.) America has one thing in common with Bolivia and Congo, but there is also one difference. America does not want an armed revolution. The difference is that when enough Americans finally get their shit together they can make a difference in their government, unlike the residents of Bolivia. That's two reasons why your little armed revolution wouldn't work.

You call me and some others on this board coffeehouse pacifists. As I have already pointed out, I'm not actually a complete pacifist, but that's beside the point. I advocate trying my hardest to change the government through peaceful, rational means whenever I can. I'm a member of over thirty organizations like NOW, Greenpeace, the ACLU, etc. (which is one of many reasons why I cannot afford a latte) and I volunteer and protest all over the place. I'm an active pacifist. But as far as I can tell, you haven't taken a whole lot of steps toward armed revolution in Atlantic City.

I advocate pacifism and I practice and spread pacifism. You advocate war, but haven't started one.

[libereco]

Quote: from El Che on 11:39 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
This is not a state you know? its a fucking bb. If we banned someone we arent repressing freedom of speach...



this is true indeed. As far as I know this message board isn't even located on a US server. (where freedom of speech is supposedly everything)

And additionally, the constitution of the USA only states that parlament shall not pass a law limiting freedom of speech. But on your private bb, on your own webspace, you can set whatever rules you want.

Picture this. We're all here in Maltes house, invited to discuss leftist Politics and whatnot, a few Capitalists come along and start arguing. And they are welcome. But guess what: You are guest, and you better behave, because you don't have a right to be here you can be thrown out.


not that in this thread anybody has done anything that i would ban for, but I felt the need to back El Che on this issue. You should be thankful that there is a Freedom of Speech in Maltes "house".

If I walked into your house and started arguing and insulting, i wonder how long my right to "free speech" would last.

[El Che]

shit im right am i not? we not need to take this abuse i sure as hell dont. There is also such a thing as freedom to tell someone to BUGGER OFF.

[CheGuevara]

People have been trying to exhaust legal means for 80 years. It hasn't worked too well. As for the Marxist militia of Trenton, I'm not working on. Eventually, I'll show you guys on what we've been working. I wouldn't say the people of Bolivia didn't want a revolution with serious economic change. Maybe the bribed peasants in the area Che operated in didn't want it at the time....
I don't believe that if enough American's got together they can make a difference with this government. Many, although not all, people have lost faith in the political system, as can be seen by the very low voter turnout. This is the battle to pick. If the USA is liberated, the whole world will be liberated.

[Tricky]

Quote CheGuevara:Not to defend a capitalist shit like Imperial Power, but it's not unreasonable for a newcomer to expect that this a Che Guevara board NOT be FILLED with NAMBY PAMBY HIPPIE PACIFISTS.

I dont particularly like being assessed by someone who doesnt know me at all, nor my causes and nor my reason for being here....

I have read right through this thread and must say that I find your comments irritating and issued only for shock factor - your boring....

I must also say that I find Red and a few others very interesting reads.....

Peace,
Tricky

[El Che]

Yes tricky we are currently having some problems with the new members...


Che Guevarra with that type of atitude you wont acomplish anything. The only thing you will do if you are really serious about what you are saying, if you are comited to that then the only thing you will get in return is either death or jail. You will help noone acomplish nothing. I speak the truth so you better take my word for it before its too late.

[CommieBastard]

The first battle of the revolution must be fought over the hearts and souls of the people.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 4:41 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
I advocate armed revolution.


I'm a "Namby Pamby" for fighting the only way we can in the US... but your a he man macho revolutionary that will start a violent revolution from your New Jersey base when? ( Mind you I just want to catch the news of you in handcuffs being put in a squad car)

Also Tricky.. I find you interesting too.. this board is usually better when we aren't fighting among ourselves.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 8:44 pm on Jan. 11, 2002)

[Valkyrie]

I ALWAYS read Rob-CheGuvevara's posts. In fact, there are not enough of them. I'm a big fan!!! Total pure raw inspiration! Good for ya Rob!

"The problem here is our failure to communicate...."

There's becoming a big factionist divide between the left; dogmatics/anti-dogmatics, pacifist/militants etc. etc.. It's not good thing. and Unity cannot be stressed enough.

I know that if things persist as they are in the US, with the basic threats to democracy headed toward extreme repression a la "1984", there will be a call for arms... and those of you who cannot pick up a gun to defend your rights and the rights ofothers, should not criticize those who will defend them for you.

[Tricky]

For the most part, in all the forums I have visited and read, everyone gets along fine....
In groups like this its not expected that everyone should have the same view....it is more how we define and relate them that makes the person....

Peace,
Tricky

[Valkyrie]

It's not about the person, the cult of personality. it's about the goal. if you want socialism/communism to stay in the 20th century, and not move forward.. keep the factions up, don't look for the common ground between us all then. I'm a communist anarchist, I have no interest in a dictator of the proletariat... but, I am flexible enough to tolerate it if it will achieve the goal. The pacifists should tolerate the militants, & vice versa.

I am afraid we are blowing our opportunities with this pettiness. We should be a very effiecient world-wide network of leftists, using this internet for the advantage that it gives us.

[RedCeltic]

Well I tell you... I've extended the hand of friendship before... to Kamo... who I consider a comrade... and will extend it again to Comrade CheGuevara.. who is fighting the good fight against a comon enemy. I may question your tactics... however I do not question your resolve... Your thunder you express so valiantly... your passion for the people you express so passionatly... Your... rage against the captialist empire you express so poeticly... is something we both share... "Unite and Fight" is a slogan I believe in deeply... and if you can't see past our diffrences I don't know what elce to say.

[CheGuevara]

Quote: from libereco on 11:40 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
oh and by about armed revolution.

Every attempt of armed revolution at this point in the USA would be fucking ridiculous.
You are not backed by the people. If you don't open their eyes first all you'd do (in case you suceed, hah) that you dictate the other people your own will of a minority.

The people are supposed to overthrow a government, not some people who claim to act in the peoples will.


Many people are afraid(and rightfully so, because of the mighty beast known as the US military), and they need to see someone else to start the revolution before they join. I believe there are definitely enough dedicated communists and those who could adopt our beliefs to start and maintain a revolutionary foothold until much more popular support could be gained.

[CheGuevara]

Quote: from Tricky on 12:14 am on Jan. 12, 2002
Quote CheGuevara:Not to defend a capitalist shit like Imperial Power, but it's not unreasonable for a newcomer to expect that this a Che Guevara board NOT be FILLED with NAMBY PAMBY HIPPIE PACIFISTS.

I dont particularly like being assessed by someone who doesnt know me at all, nor my causes and nor my reason for being here....

I have read right through this thread and must say that I find your comments irritating and issued only for shock factor - your boring....

I must also say that I find Red and a few others very interesting reads.....

Peace,
Tricky


Well, thank you, your highness. Perhaps you would like to share some of your "causes." As for your reasons for being here, I would certainly hope, as I'm sure some other members(although not all) can, that it has something to do with Che Guevara. Yes, my comments were made to shock certain people out of their states of mind, although I truly believe everything that I've said and I truly do have issues with what I've railed against. Oh, I'm also sorry I bore you, your highness. I guess you'd rather listen to Starbucks progressive talk. By the way comrades, from now on, be careful to make your talk exciting so that we don't displease any Starbucks progressives. They may decide to leave the board and go back to Starbucks from where they came.


(Edited by CheGuevara at 5:51 am on Jan. 12, 2002)


(Edited by CheGuevara at 5:52 am on Jan. 12, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 11:00 pm on Jan. 11, 2002

Quote: from libereco on 11:40 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
oh and by about armed revolution.

Every attempt of armed revolution at this point in the USA would be fucking ridiculous.
You are not backed by the people. If you don't open their eyes first all you'd do (in case you suceed, hah) that you dictate the other people your own will of a minority.

The people are supposed to overthrow a government, not some people who claim to act in the peoples will.


Many people are afraid(and rightfully so, because of the mighty beast known as the US military), and they need to see someone else to start the revolution before they join. I believe there are definitely enough dedicated communists and those who could adopt our beliefs to start and maintain a revolutionary foothold until much more popular support could be gained.


ha ha... The Liberals barely have a foothold in the US...

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 11:22 pm on Jan. 11, 2002

Quote: from Tricky on 12:14 am on Jan. 12, 2002
Quote CheGuevara:Not to defend a capitalist shit like Imperial Power, but it's not unreasonable for a newcomer to expect that this a Che Guevara board NOT be FILLED with NAMBY PAMBY HIPPIE PACIFISTS.

I dont particularly like being assessed by someone who doesnt know me at all, nor my causes and nor my reason for being here....

I have read right through this thread and must say that I find your comments irritating and issued only for shock factor - your boring....

I must also say that I find Red and a few others very interesting reads.....

Peace,
Tricky


Well, thank you, your highness. Perhaps you would like to share some of your "causes." As for your reasons for being here, I would certainly hope, as I'm sure some other members(although not all) can, that it has something to do with Che Guevara. Yes, my comments were made to shock certain people out of their states of mind, although I truly believe everything that I've said and I truly do have issues with what I've railed against.



She's posted a total of what 8 times and now she''s under fire and questioned her "Right to be here" Where do you get off? I'd hate to see what kind of oppressive state you have in mind of us all....

[CheGuevara]

Forgive me father, for I have sinned. I know what sacrilege it is to inquire as to how one's presence on this board relates with Che Guevara.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 6:02 am on Jan. 12, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...rum=19&topic=76 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=19&topic=76)

her intro to the board...

[CheGuevara]

She said he admired his passion. That's great(no sarcasm here) but what about what he did and for what he stood? A lot of people have passion for issues. If its placed behind the wrong issues, it loses its value. The typical copout of all pacifists on this board for the reason why they're here.

[RedCeltic]

I don't think that makes much sense... I mean... I admire his passion... and what he stood for... Heck he stood for the people... and he used force to over throw an opressive dictator. However... how I differ... is that I live in New York... and such an option isn't a practical one where I live. So I walk around saying "I don't believe in wars my countery starts"...... and try to fight the only way I can.. peacfuly and democraticly.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 12:48 am on Jan. 12, 2002)

[Tricky]

The only person that I am answerable to is myself....
I think that you would find fault in any message posted so its not worth arguing....
Thanks for giving me a sense of nobility - how kind

Peace,
Tricky

[CheGuevara]

Quote: from Tricky on 6:57 am on Jan. 12, 2002
The only person that I am answerable to is myself....
I think that you would find fault in any message posted so its not worth arguing....
Thanks for giving me a sense of nobility - how kind

Peace,
Tricky

No problem, Princess. You already had it.

[I Will Deny You]

CheG, I haven't even set foot in a Starbucks in two-three years and I can't recall ever buying anything from there.

You still haven't given us any examples of what you've done to advance the progressive cause. So why not tell us about the organizations you're involved in, whether it's Amnesty International or the Joisey City Militia. You attach brand names to people you don't even know but have yet to even make an attempt at showing how you've helped a single movement.

Quote: from CheGuevara on 6:29 am on Jan. 12, 2002
She said he admired his passion. That's great(no sarcasm here) but what about what he did and for what he stood? A lot of people have passion for issues.I'd like to know when you've actively taken a stand, even if it's just at your high school chapter of SFT.

[CheGuevara]

It's not quite ready yet for the public. Quality takes a little bit of time. Of course, wishy washy pacifists such as yourself wouldn't be very interested in a truly revolutionary organization.

[RedCeltic]

I will Deny You... said earlier in this thread...

"I'm a member of over thirty organizations like NOW, Greenpeace, the ACLU, etc. (which is one of many reasons why I cannot afford a latte) and I volunteer and protest all over the place. I'm an active pacifist. But as far as I can tell, you haven't taken a whole lot of steps toward armed revolution in Atlantic City. "

Which is what I would call "Dedication" What about these organisations do you not agree with... besides the fact that they don't kill people? You call her "wishy washy" and "do nothing" etc... but when asked what movements you are involved in... you just say, "It's not ready for the public yet..."

[Moskitto]

- or this is the best - "There has never truly been a communist nation yet."

If communism doesn't work (like you say) then there can't ever be a communist state. Therefore the USSR wasn't communist because there cannot be a communist state.

be carefull not to make arguements that wrap each other up.

If however communism does work then we are all aiming to make a communist state. Since none of us like the USSR or China then we would not be wanting to set up a state like them, therefore claiming we want to set up a state like them is idiotic.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 12:11 am on Jan. 12, 2002
People have been trying to exhaust legal means for 80 years. It hasn't worked too well. As for the Marxist militia of Trenton, I'm not working on. Eventually, I'll show you guys on what we've been working. I wouldn't say the people of Bolivia didn't want a revolution with serious economic change. Maybe the bribed peasants in the area Che operated in didn't want it at the time....
I don't believe that if enough American's got together they can make a difference with this government. Many, although not all, people have lost faith in the political system, as can be seen by the very low voter turnout. This is the battle to pick. If the USA is liberated, the whole world will be liberated.


first of all it has been pretty much shown that the people in Bolivia did NOT want a revolution. there was a newly elected government that the people thought might bring about good change. the people wanted to see if the government could actually bring about change. had that government faultered then maybe the people would have wanted revolution.

and the low voter turn out is NOT proof of lack of faith. many people dont vote because they find the issues too complicated to follow.

people still have faith in the government in the United States and for that very reason armed revolution will not work yet.

[CheGuevara]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Bolivia. As for election turnout, I don't buy that at all. I'd like to know how you figure. I've never heard anyone say, "Shit, these issues are too complicated. I guess I'll just not participate." Besides, capitalist politicians rarely touch on important, complicated issues. They usually build campaigns around simple, sound bite issues(i.e. gun control). With a strategy like this, I don't think too many people are being scared away because of the complexity, or lack of it, of the issues.

[El Che]

Che Guevarra i have a proposition for you, and im not trying to diss you or anything im being serious. Why dont you catch a plane to bogota and go join FARC or ELN? thats where your revolution is. The way i see it you have a better chance of bringing the revolution to your contry if you go to Colombia and become a part of real life, seriously well organised guerrila warfare revolutionary army. If you win the war and make a name for your self within this group you have a much better chance than if you try and make a revolution in new jersey or whatever. War starts tomorrow comrade, and i if i were colombian i can tell you i would be in it. Im dead serious. Did you ever think about doing this? why dont you?

[El Che]

Che Guevarra him self joined a revolution that was not his own with the intention of later speading it to other contries.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 7:09 pm on Jan. 12, 2002
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Bolivia. As for election turnout, I don't buy that at all. I'd like to know how you figure. I've never heard anyone say, "Shit, these issues are too complicated. I guess I'll just not participate." Besides, capitalist politicians rarely touch on important, complicated issues. They usually build campaigns around simple, sound bite issues(i.e. gun control). With a strategy like this, I don't think too many people are being scared away because of the complexity, or lack of it, of the issues.


actually i know alot of people that don't for that very reason. they know that while the issues appear to be very simple there is much more to it. and they don't have the time or the effort to do the proper research, so they don't vote.

[Imperial Power]

CheGuevara I'm guesing you've earned yourself an FBI file over your armed revolution comments.

Well I guess I can declare victory over the communists yet again Capitalist. The have ignored my questions for three days because they're afraid of the answer.

I was looking forward to reading your thesis on organized labor GooDDoctor, but it seems your not posting anymore.

Tricky seems to be tricky, a real intellectual and I fully expect her to turn my words aorund here and find something clever to say. So do your best.

[Moskitto]

I think i've probably got an MI5 file.

Well I went to a website and it said "you've now got an FBI file, It's called "anti-freedom of speach laws" I mean "anti-terrorism laws"" and FBI and MI5 exchange info.

[El Che]

Imperial Power what questions do you have? lets see if we have an answer for them or not lol.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 5:47 pm on Jan. 12, 2002
CheGuevara I'm guesing you've earned yourself an FBI file over your armed revolution comments.

Well I guess I can declare victory over the communists yet again Capitalist. The have ignored my questions for three days because they're afraid of the answer.

I was looking forward to reading your thesis on organized labor GooDDoctor, but it seems your not posting anymore.

Tricky seems to be tricky, a real intellectual and I fully expect her to turn my words aorund here and find something clever to say. So do your best.





If you will notice we have been too busy dodging poison arrows from our own camp to respond...

[ComradeFubar]

From what ive seen id have to say Imperial Power is a fucken smart arse, hes caused us to bicker and fight among ourelves instead of uniting together and collectivly proving imperial power wrong in his thinking..
For fucks sakes the last 5 or so pages on this Topic are full of shit not even concerning the topic in hand but just containg fractional fighting....hmm welcome to the world of politics :)

[El Che]

the fighting was because Che Guevarra decided to start insulting everyone that didnt "advocate armed revolution" not because of imperial power. Now, i believe you had some unanswered questions Imperial power... What might they be? we dont want you to think you`ve won some kind of debate now do we? either ask or bugger off.

[CheGuevara]

Yes, people like you who seem rather complacently content with the capitalist system.

[El Che]

Although i am aint capitalist i recognise it isnt viable to think about changing it right now. Its just not viable or possible... Im simply a realist. I want to do what i can to better things in my contry, and to try and inact the reforms needed to keep the Capitalists in check and defend the workers. Thats hard enof as it is.

[ComradeFubar]

CheGuevara tell me of atlest one successuful armed revolution that worked and brought what it "promised"? Im interested if there were any at all

[CheGuevara]

Tell me at least one government elected in capitalist elections that brought what it promised.

Yes, the Cuban revolution ended the corruption, the exploitation of Cuban women, alleviated some of the poverty, and brought education and healthcare to far more people.

[Imperial Power]

The reagon administration ended the cold war che.

[Moskitto]

I always thought the Bush administration ended the cold war.

I dunno, I only remember the last day of the Bush administration.

[Nickademus]

che quevara,

it is easy enough to overthrow a gov't etc. through armed revolution but to make it last you need the support of the people. no one will deny that (unless their irretrivably stupid). armed revolution at this stage in time will NOT be supported by the people. that is evident by the number of people on this board who don't advocate violance. its simply being logical, or rather tactical.

[peaccenicked]

The cold war has n't finished you are still conducting it on this site. I still can't see why? You seem to be saying that the only alternative to imperialism is Stalinism, then offer it as the only choice on the menu. You then you go on to tell us how bad stalinism is, but never explain why it is all there is to choose from. And you cold warriors used to go on about freedom of choice all the time.

[Imperial Power]

Is this the biggest thread ever on this site?

[peaccenicked]

It might be something to do with the size of your mouth.
If not your head.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 3:49 pm on Jan. 13, 2002
Yes, people like you who seem rather complacently content with the capitalist system.Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. didn't advocate armed revolution. So should we conclude that he was complacently content with the racist system? Like I've said before, the amount of violence that a person advocates (or participates in) is NOT a way to measure how much they believe in a cause. I just might puke if you make one of your "More Communist than Thou" posts again. One of the reasons why Che admired Ghandi, and one of the reasons why Che is dead, is that each situation calls for a different method to bring about change. Sure, the US electoral system sucks, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one that doesn't. I can guarantee this, though: you, CheG, will NEVER overthrow the US government. Now you can accept that and try to change the system through peaceful means, or you can continue to advocate armed revolution, which you do so very well. (By the way, I have now asked for an example of some revolutionary activity in which you've participated in more than one thread, and you haven't produced anything.)

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 4:53 am on Jan. 15, 2002
Tell me at least one government elected in capitalist elections that brought what it promised.Abraham Lincoln's. My grandfather has an FBI file that's practically ten feet thick, but he has a portrait of Lincoln in his living room.

[Moskitto]

Abe Lincoln was so blatantly the best American president, from an English standpoint that is.

[CheGuevara]

"Es mejor morir de pie que vivir de rodillas." Emiliano Zapata.

"Ser pueblo. Hacer pueblo. Estar con el Pueblo" Lucio Cabañas

oooo, wouldn't that be too bad if i made you throw up your non-starbucks local coffeehouse cappuchino? By the way, Martin Luther King also said "the man who is not willing to die for something is not fit to live." it's better to fail in trying. when it's ready, it's ready. Get yourself a cappuchino and wait on your ass, just like you've been for the rest of your life. Why do you need to see it anyway? You and your ilk wouldn't be interested.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 11:22 pm on Jan. 17, 2002
"Es mejor morir de pie que vivir de rodillas." Emiliano Zapata.

"Ser pueblo. Hacer pueblo. Estar con el Pueblo" Lucio Cabañas

oooo, wouldn't that be too bad if i made you throw up your non-starbucks local coffeehouse cappuchino? By the way, Martin Luther King also said "the man who is not willing to die for something is not fit to live." it's better to fail in trying. when it's ready, it's ready. Get yourself a cappuchino and wait on your ass, just like you've been for the rest of your life. Why do you need to see it anyway? You and your ilk wouldn't be interested.

there is a complete difference between dying because one is defending one's position and running into the face of unnecessary violence just to make oneself a martyr. *when blacks were fighting for their rights in north america they were using non-violent means, but the police and the government were using violent means. *thus, dr king was simply saying that death is a possibility (because of the OPPOSING VIOLENCE __ NOT VIOLENT MEASURES TAKEN BY THE BLACKS) and if you can't accept that you aren't really fighting for your rights. *perhaps you should read up more on history before you quote it. * *

and btw i don't drink coffee or coffee products so shut the FUCK up

[CheGuevara]

Violence is necessary. If you think the capitalists will allow us to vote away their power, you're a fool.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 4:15 am on Jan. 18, 2002
Violence is necessary. If you think the capitalists will allow us to vote away their power, you're a fool.

at no point have i said what you are implying. i simply pointed out that the context of your quote is incorrect.
voting is not going to work at this moment in time, but either is violence. do you not see the conundrum we are currently in. if is people like you that make the struggle even longer -- you are the people who drive away the support of the people that we will need when revolution is possible. until we gain that support (by alienating people like you) revolution in ANY WAY will not occur.

[CheGuevara]

We have not alienated very many people. In the past several weeks, we've gained quite a few new members. That was the relevance of my "Ser pueblo. Hacer pueblo. Estar con el Pueblo" quote. Perhaps it is not we who are out of touch.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 4:23 am on Jan. 18, 2002
We have not alienated very many people. In the past several weeks, we've gained quite a few new members. That was the relevance of my "Ser pueblo. Hacer pueblo. Estar con el Pueblo" quote. Perhaps it is not we who are out of touch.

first of all i don't know that quote because i don't speak that language. and numerous people are alienated by the type of violance you advocate. that is obvious from this bb alone (oh wait, according to you we don't count -- - ) you may be gaining people for your movement, but i would suspect you only have the support of those who are already communists. but not all people are communists, and we need as much support as possible. we have to convert those who are not leftist and that WILL NOT happen with violence.

[I Will Deny You]

"Quote: from CheGuevara on 11:22 pm on Jan. 17, 2002
oooo, wouldn't that be too bad if i made you throw up your non-starbucks local coffeehouse cappuchino?"

That's pretty funny. I almost pissed out my 'non-starbucks local coffeehouse cappuchino' from laughing at that. It's non-starbucks local coffeehouse orange mochacappuchino to you! At least you're finally acknowledging that I don't go to Starbucks. I hate to break it to you, but I drink Jones Soda, not cappuchino, when I need a jolt. It doesn't make your breath stink.

"Quote: from CheGuevara on 11:22 pm on Jan. 17, 2002
By the way, Martin Luther King also said "the man who is not willing to die for something is not fit to live.""

Yeah, but there is no way in hell that you will possibly be dying for anything if you try to overthrow the government now. He didn't advise anyone to throw their life away for no reason. King promoted working with the government to change it whenever possible, not against it. He set goals that he knew he could achieve (and he did achieve them). He made compromises with legislators because he knew that a set of abstract ideals would do no good but small changes, whenever possible, would add up to something big. The fact that King changed the hearts and minds of the American people to get them to support the Civil Rights Movement is a testament to the fact that when you work hard enough, the electoral system can be used to your advantage and make a positive difference in the lives of millions of people. (This is a point that I have been stressing all along that you have never disproven, but simply disputed.)

"Quote: from CheGuevara on 11:22 pm on Jan. 17, 2002
Get yourself a cappuchino and wait on your ass, just like you've been for the rest of your life."

I've been doing charity work at homeless shelters and soup kitchens, I've interned for the ACLU and NAACP, and I spend hours upon hours each week teaching inner city kids and getting paid NOTHING for it. I've written for somewhere between 15-20 underground papers. I've attended demonstrations and organized letter-writing campaigns. If that's sitting on my ass, then what isn't?

"Quote: from CheGuevara on 11:22 pm on Jan. 17, 2002
Why do you need to see it anyway? You and your ilk wouldn't be interested."

If I wouldn't be interested, I wouldn't have asked. (Although I can't speak for my ilk, you'll have to ask them yourself.) That seems like a cop-out if you ask me.

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 4:31 am on Jan. 18, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 4:15 am on Jan. 18, 2002
Violence is necessary. If you think the capitalists will allow us to vote away their power, you're a fool.
Exactly how will violence take power away from the capitalists if voting won't, short of a revolution? Because it's time for you to face facts, pal of mine, and the fact of the matter is that 16-year-olds will never overthrow a government that has enough nuclear power to blow up the face of the planet as many times as it wants. Neither will 17, 18, or 19 year olds, or whatever age group you happen to fall into. Since revolution is impossible and anything short of revolution will do nothing but alienate people as Nickademus correctly pointed out, I'd like to know exactly how violence will do what non-violence can't.

[CheGuevara]

A revolution.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 5:02 am on Jan. 18, 2002
A revolution.

excellent response. gee you really showed us with that wonderful explination. i wish i could have put it so eloquently. i can see why people flock to you, you are a regular hitler with your eloquence of speach.

if you aren't going to help us understand your position then fuck off because you are doing no good ans serve no value/purpose on this board.

[CheGuevara]

How about you take your hippie ass presence off the board?

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 7:59 pm on Jan. 18, 2002
How about you take your hippie ass presence off the board? Alright, CheG, this is getting stupid.

Nickademus is a hippie. I'm a Starbucks patron (and if my memory serves me correctly, I'm a hippie, too). You're doing to Nickademus what you did to me, namely, giving stupid responses to intelligent questions and making generalizations about people you have never met and never listen to. Beside the fact that Che allowed himself to be interviewed by American super-hippie Jerry Rubin and, as I've pointed out before, hardly any hippies were actually pacifists and most of them just didn't want to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, you don't back up anything you say. Your posts are usually 1-3 sentences long and never reveal anything.

As much as you seem to hate the American leftists of the 60's, maybe you should learn a lesson or two from them. Have you ever heard of the Chicago 8? You don't seem to really know very much about the left because you simply advocate armed revolution without backing up your claims or theories, so I wouldn't be shocked either way. What we can learn from them is that in-fighting can ruin the left. Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman were too anti-SDS, Tom Hayden was too anti-humor . . . the list goes on and on. What we can learn from the 60's is that 1) too much in-fighting among the leaders and important players can make them lose sight of the bigger picture (it's respectful, smart, productive debate that's needed, not senseless argument) and 2) people who claim to be leftists but really have no idea what's going on, ie. most of the hippies who could give you ten flowers but not one single argument for why we really should pull out of Vietnam, ruin the left's image and credibility, and really serve no purpose other than sheer strength in numbers at marches and protests.

Considering the fact that you're not promoting respect, learning, or productive conversation and you haven't backed up a damned thing you've said, and that you don't seem to know what the fuck you're talking about ("a revolution."--wow, I feel enlightened now), I'd say it's you, and not Nickademus (who has fully supported all of her positions), who should be removed from this board, if anyone.

If you choose to reply to this (instead of ignoring it like you've ignored plenty of my posts), please reply in a respectful, calm, intelligent manner. Please back up everything you say and write more than two sentences. Please don't use the words pacifist, hippie, Starbucks, or cappuchino. Thank you.

[CheGuevara]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 4:38 am on Jan. 18, 2002

Quote: from CheGuevara on 4:15 am on Jan. 18, 2002
Violence is necessary. If you think the capitalists will allow us to vote away their power, you're a fool.
Exactly how will violence take power away from the capitalists if voting won't, short of a revolution? Because it's time for you to face facts, pal of mine, and the fact of the matter is that 16-year-olds will never overthrow a government that has enough nuclear power to blow up the face of the planet as many times as it wants. Neither will 17, 18, or 19 year olds, or whatever age group you happen to fall into. Since revolution is impossible and anything short of revolution will do nothing but alienate people as Nickademus correctly pointed out, I'd like to know exactly how violence will do what non-violence can't.


This is what my brief response advocating a revolution was in response to.

[Nickademus]

but you didn't explain you position beyond saying a revolution. you never really explain why you advocate revolution. without that you will never gain any of our respect (although i'm not sure you are ever going to gain our resepct).

i understand what your response was responding to but it was not exactly enlightening. education is the key my boy (and i'm not referring to formal education), perhaps you should gain some.

[CheGuevara]

I advocate revolution because it's the surest way to put a socialist government in power. They can do anything to us if they want. If we gain too much power through legal means, they'll abide by their rules even less than they do now in order to crush us. So why not skip the fooling around with a system that won't let us gain power and that will allow them to launch the first strike, and just do what we're going to have to do anyway if we're going to take power?

Even if you don't agree with this, you can't dispute the fact that it's quicker.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 11:45 pm on Jan. 18, 2002)

[HardcoreCommie]

revolution is also the surest way to put a fascist govt in power, or a theocratic govt in power, or whatever...

[RedCeltic]

Sorry this comment comes late... but reading through the past few pages... I would like to say this to CheG:

Your use of that quote from Rev. Doctor Martin Luther King JR. proves to me that you don't know much about him. If you in any way think that that quote can be used to support an armed revolution, I think you should spend Monday (Jan 21th Martin Luther King day) reading "Where do we go from here?"by King, 1967





(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:41 pm on Jan. 18, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

Yes Celtic, you're absolutely right, I don't know a lot about him. However, I seriously doubt that many people on this forum would be willing to die for any cause, be it in a violent or non-violent capacity on their parts.

[RedCeltic]

And you gather that from reading a few posts on the internet? You really don't know much about us to tell you the truth friend.

When you think of that statement you quoted from Dr Martin Luther King JR... Think of a Black boy standing nonvilantly against a white cop, who beats him to death, that is what the meaning of this quote is, and such a non violent action speaks 100 fold more than a violent one.

You see.. you wrongfuly assosiate someone's disagreement with violent action with an unwillingness to stand up for what they believe in.

You think that you alone sitting in your mother's basement, typing on your father's computer in suburban New Jersey will win the "Revolution" and save the world from capitalism in one fell swoop.

Sounds great... however, for those of us that have actualy been in the real world, we know things just dont work like that.

Will a capitalist election be any better? Probobly not, but it's a practical option.

I believe that we are fighting for the same thing comrade, however you for some odd known reason find it useful to make personal attacks at us because we use diffrent tactics to fight for the same goal.

Tell me... have you ever been on a United States Militery base? You should ask your dad to take you on a family trip to see the Norfolk Virginia Naval base... you will be amazed at the rows upon rows of aircraft carriers, destroyers, submarines, etc, that may may be called upon at a moments notice to fight against you and 19 other 17 year olds.





(Edited by RedCeltic at 11:41 pm on Jan. 18, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

Hohoho, I'm not from Long Island, chief. I'm sure you've been in the real world, right?

A nonviolent action may speak more than a violent one, but a nonviolent action doesn't get as much done.

[RedCeltic]

CheG... yes I'm 31 and have been around the world... have only lived on long island a short part of my life (and yes I live in the poor south shore of long Island) so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say "The real world"

This sounds a bit off, but I was in the Navy for four years... which is how I managed to travel around the world


A nonviolent action may speak more than a violent one, but a nonviolent action doesn't get as much done.

I'm interested if this statement makes any sense to anyone besides yourself.




(Edited by RedCeltic at 11:54 pm on Jan. 18, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

Well, in 31 years I'm surprised that you haven't had the time to see the inability of the people to take power through capitalist elections.

[RedCeltic]

The election system in the US sucks man, and needs to be changed, however that doesn't mean that we need a violent revolution to change it.

[CheGuevara]

How do you change it then? The only people who have the power to change it, the politicians, were all put there and are maintained by the same corrupt system.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 6:00 am on Jan. 19, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

Let me put it this way, I think there is a time and a place for an armed revolution, and we may come to such a state of affairs that we need such a thing.

Your right, the system is corrupt, however, I think we should use the system to attack the system. I know it's inhumane to make the poor in this countery wait so long, but seeing as how most of the nation has turned to the right rather than the left due to recent events... we would not gain the support of the people at this time.

I think that the primary objective of any third party nowdays should be firstly to do away with the two party system, and make it easier for a third party candidate to be elected.

[CheGuevara]

Third party, vs one huge party with two heads. Hmmmm...very good recipe for success.

[RedCeltic]

If the people truly want to overthrow the two headed beast (GOP & Dems) they will vote them out. What it takes is education... after all what will it take for the majority of the population to support your revolution? Education! If your going to liberate the people, they should at least be seeing it as a good thing. If they are slaves to the system as they are now, they will not support it.

[CheGuevara]

Oooo, education. Capitalists control the schools and media. Another good recipe for success.

[RedCeltic]

So with the majority of the nation moving to the riight, how do you justify a left wing revolution, that will be "For the people" ?

[CheGuevara]

The majority of the nation is moving to the right, or does the media just want you to think that? You've been fooled and tooled by the capitalist media my friend.

Besides, the people can be brainwashed.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 6:53 am on Jan. 19, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

I don''t know about that... maybe your correct... however, most people I know here iin New York who didn't support Bush before do so now... and say they would vote for him again.

Having met many Americans in both New York and Virgina when I was a Plumber in both states, I would say that most Americans are very far from becoming converted even to a moderate, (Nampy Pamby) socialist like me.

[CheGuevara]

Even if what you claim is true, the support of the majority isn't necessary for a revolution.

[Incognito]

An armed band of revolutionaries stands no chance against the military power of the United States.

The only power great enough to slay this two-headed beast is in the vote of the our un-educated comrades, the workers and students. And education is the first step in a pro-socialist vote.

Our first problem is this, the words "socialism" and "communism" strike terror into the hearts of the un-educated Americans. They automatically go to the terrors of the cold war and the Stalinist regime of the USSR, and we need to teach them that that is not communism.

Now you are asking. How do you educate people when the capitalists control education and the media? This must be done by us. We must educate our fellow students while they are young, and their minds are set in a defiant attitude. We need to invite third parties members to speak to students throughout the nation. When students are exposed to what they need to hear by the people they can vote for, their minds will open, and they will think twice about their vote.

Just last year, I heard that Ralph Nader was speaking at a few colleges in my city, and I wanted to attend. I sat there listening to this man speak about consumer rights and protecting ourselves from the power of big-business. If I had heard him sooner, and was old enough to vote (another thing this country must change, in my opinion the voting age should be lowered) I would have voted green party. And I feel that if other people were in exposed to Nader, they might have voted for him as well. It's a step in the right direction.

Another obstacle in our way is presidential election that is independent of the country's popular vote. People are less willing to vote now, when in 2000 the president was decided by a few hundred votes in Florida. They feel that their votes are worthless and in this case they were right.

The socialist revolution in this country will be a political revolution. This revolution will be carried out by the students of today when they are educated enough to make the right decision, when they have become a member of the working class and realize that they are insignificant in the present system. When they realize that their bosses are getting rich off of their labor. People are brainwashed right now into believing that if they are lucky then they will have a chance to become the exploiter, not the exploited. They have no concern for thier fellow worker.

[RedCeltic]

The Majority don't want a revolution, that's my point!

[RedCeltic]

Incognito , wise words! thankyou

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 11:44 pm on Jan. 18, 2002
I advocate revolution because it's the surest way to put a socialist government in power. They can do anything to us if they want. If we gain too much power through legal means, they'll abide by their rules even less than they do now in order to crush us. So why not skip the fooling around with a system that won't let us gain power and that will allow them to launch the first strike, and just do what we're going to have to do anyway if we're going to take power?

Even if you don't agree with this, you can't dispute the fact that it's quicker.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 11:45 pm on Jan. 18, 2002)


true it may be quicker but the results will not last. can you not understand that. and in order to brainwash the people (as you suggested is possible somewhere else) you need a lot of resources, including HUMAN resources, and i don't think you can count on a lot of us hippie leftists to support your martyrdom

[peaccenicked]

Lenin is always a good read somewhere he says
A revolutionary situation is
1) When the majority of people don't want to be ruled the old way and are prepared to die ror it.
2) when the middle class is moving to the left
3) when the ruling class can not rule in the old way

Most of the world are at a pre revolutionary stage, the economic and social crisis is still at a latent level in terms of consciousness. The task of revolutionaries is to prepare for the manifestation of the revolutionary situation. Socialists don't start start revolutions per se
They make the most of their opportunities.

[Nateddi]

Lenin was right

[CheGuevara]

Fuck an armed band of revolutionaries, I'm talking about a small army of revolutionaries. I've been looking at the US military, and there are a shitload of weaknesses. Maybe the majority don't want a revolution, but only a small portion of them would be deadset against it, and the rest would only be slightly brainwashed, easy to educate, once we get the tools. Quite frankly, our organization doesn't need your pothead hippie asses.

[peaccenicked]

Yeh! On you go.
I suggest you recapture Patsy Hurst,
and then go underground.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 3:35 pm on Jan. 19, 2002
Fuck an armed band of revolutionaries, I'm talking about a small army of revolutionaries. I've been looking at the US military, and there are a shitload of weaknesses. Maybe the majority don't want a revolution, but only a small portion of them would be deadset against it, and the rest would only be slightly brainwashed, easy to educate, once we get the tools. Quite frankly, our organization doesn't need your pothead hippie asses.


i disagree. you seem to think that very few people are going to be upset about a revolution right now. are you not aware of the fact that bush currently has a 99% approval rate. people are not going to support a revolution. after the attacks of sept 11th people will label you terrorists and put you in the same category as bin laden. you may very well successfully overthrow the gov't but the people will not allow you to remain in power. right now people want security, and an armed revolution will NOT provide that.

[I Will Deny You]

I need to come here more often. This thread has grown three pages since my last visit.

First of all: CheG, don't quote Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. if you don't know how you're quoting him, especially in response to someone like me (who does know what King was referring to). It's insulting and misleading, and it makes me take you even less seriously.

On to the quoting!
"Quote: from CheGuevara on 3:35 pm on Jan. 19, 2002
Fuck an armed band of revolutionaries, I'm talking about a small army of revolutionaries. I've been looking at the US military, and there are a shitload of weaknesses."
Like what? Once again, you need to support your statements, pal. I'm not quite sure what to respond to here since that was such a blanket statement, but here's one thing about the military that is NOT a weakness: there's a shitload of them. Think they can't crush a small army? As I recall (and since you haven't mentioned your age in any post that I've had the pleasure to read, I can only assume that I would recall the events of this period better than you could), the US crushed that small army in Iraq, which was supported by millions (if not billions) of dollars in weaponry and a very powerful man named Saddam Hussein. I'd really like to know what your revolutionaries can do that Saddam's army couldn't.

"Quote: from CheGuevara on 3:35 pm on Jan. 19, 2002
Maybe the majority don't want a revolution, but only a small portion of them would be deadset against it, and the rest would only be slightly brainwashed, easy to educate, once we get the tools. Quite frankly, our organization doesn't need your pothead hippie asses."
As for your whole "majority" thing: 60% of Americans are registered to vote, but only half of all registered voters (30% of the population) do. Ralph Nader couldn't get the 4% of the votes he needed in 2000, and 4%, or 1/25, is a little bit over 1% of the whole population. Which means that around 1%, maybe a little more or a little less, voted for the most left-wing candidate that had anything resembling a high profile. Even then, I'm guessing most Nader voters wouldn't support an armed revolution. Your revolution, should it be successful, would have the support of less than 1% of Americans! In your wildest dreams, only 95% would be dead-set against it. Most voters voted for Gore or Bush and most people who didn't vote seem to be content with what they know about the system, or simply know nothing about the system and would have no reason to want it to be overthrown by a bunch of kids (however old you may be).
I'd be interested to know how you plan to re-educate upwards of 280,000,000 people.
As for the "pothead hippie asses" (I can only assume that you're talking about RedCeltic, Nickademus and myself), I have a few things to say--first of all, good luck "converting" the far-leftists who happen to be anti-revolution without legalizing marijuana, and second of all, stop making such sweeping, baseless generalizations if you want to maintain even the slightest bit of credibility on these boards.

PS - There are still a lot of points I've made that you haven't responded to. I'm waiting.


(Edited by I Will Deny You at 6:03 pm on Jan. 19, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

What's the deal with you calling everyone a pot smoking hippie? Can't you make your point without stupid name calling?

[CheGuevara]

Who does the polls? Our good friend the capitalist media does the polls.

As for things I haven't responded to, sorry, please restate them and maybe I'll get around to them. I can't get into any specifics on a public messageboard over the weaknesses of the US army.

[I Will Deny You]

Double-post, sorry.

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 6:05 pm on Jan. 19, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

If the polls are unreliable, please tell me how they are.

I don't need all of the specifics, but a specific or two. This is just like when you wouldn't tell us how you had taken more leftist action that we had because you thought we wouldn't care anyway, despite the fact that asking repeatedly does show some interest.

Just another cop-out from CheG.

[CheGuevara]

If you want a certain result in a "public polling", just poll a certain group of people. It may be a truthful return, but not a representative one.

[I Will Deny You]

But I'm not talking about an opinion poll, I'm talking about hard numbers that the capitalist imperialist government would not have much of a reason to skew and would have a hard time skewing.

PS - Where are those examples of leftist activities you're involved in, besides "advocating"? What are weaknesses of the American Army? I could name more, but I'll start with these 2, since they can make or break a large amount of your credibility.

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 6:34 pm on Jan. 19, 2002)

[CheGuevara]

I used to do organizing for the Young Communist League(I stopped 4 montsh ago when I realized what a worthless organization they are) and I campaigned for Nader for president. I'm currently working on a new "party".

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 6:58 pm on Jan. 19, 2002
I used to do organizing for the Young Communist League(I stopped 4 montsh ago when I realized what a worthless organization they are) and I campaigned for Nader for president. I'm currently working on a new "party".
The Young Communist League is a worthless organization. I'm afraid we've found something we agree on!

If you campaigned for Nader for president, does that not show that you have some faith in the electoral system?

If you've been involved in the Young Communist League up until four months ago, good luck finding a candidate for your new "party" who isn't in diapers anymore. (I haven't seen any proof of your knowledge of 60's politics, but just in case you've proven that you know something about what was going on then and I've simply missed it: remember the "New Party"? Let me refresh your memory--it was a total failure.)

As far as armed revolution, or any revolution is concerned, this proves that you've done nothing but advocate it.

You have not yet proven that you're aware of a single weakness of the US military.

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 7:19 pm on Jan. 19, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

The New Party was a falure, but I believe they are still around.

[Imperial Power]

Che you said that you advocate brainwashing the people into a rebellion. Isn't that against what you believe in? I thought you wanted to remove any media that spread "propaganda". Also you said the your group doesn't need hippies. Are we to believe there is a group of revolutionaries with you? Lastly you are most certainly being watched by the FBI. Why you openly talk about an armed revolution against the United States on a public forum is ridiculous. You will fail the people of the US have to much love for their country and will not change. You forget the patriotism we have here in America.

[CheGuevara]

No, I don't believe in brainwashing people, just showing them another way. The FBI can watch all they want.

[JK]

QUOTE:"You will fail the people of the US have to much love for their country and will not change. You forget the patriotism we have here in America" (Imperial Power)

Patriotism¿? Im American, and i had never seen patriotism until after the 9/11 attacks and i thought that was just hypocracy at its worst, people that had never talked about there "country" now all of a sudden were giving speeches about it, flying as many flags as possible, my whole town was innundated with flags over night, I reall y feel compassion for all the people that died, i truly do wish they were still here if anyone should have been killed it should of been the fat pigs "running" this country. Everyone was saying what a low blow that was done to the U.S but they dont see everything that the U.S has done, Well sorry if i got off the subject

J.K

[I Will Deny You]

If you're the kind of person I think you are, a bunch of agents are laughing their asses off at you right now. And if you actually do prepare for a "revolution," don't think the FBI (and ATF, etc.) won't storm your group and arrest you all.

There's no way in hell that you would be able to get the majority of Americans to support you. A revolution itself is possible with only a small group, but you'd be beyond lucky to get even one in twenty Americans to support you, re-education and all. You would be overthrown within days, if not hours. A revolution in a poor third world country that had socialist or communist elements might have a chance (in somewhere like Argentina), but not in the richest, most powerful country in the world. (Even during a recession!)

You still haven't given an example of a revolutionary action you've taken or a single weakness of the military, especially one that can help your revolution come an inch closer to being successful.

[CheGuevara]

Of course I'm not prepared for a revolution. I never said I was. All I said was that it's the best and only way this country will ever reach socialism.

[I Will Deny You]

Well you can spend as much time as you want trying to convince people that it's the best way to start a communist nation. Now, as we've finally established that you are in no way prepared for any violent revolution, you have two options (and they are the same as mine):
1) sit around advocating what you believe in, while actually doing nothing, or
2) promoting socialism (and charity overall) by going out and doing something

You're not actually preparing for a revolution and neither am I. So why don't you go volunteer at a soup kitchen? For all this talk about re-educating people to get them to accept socialism, that requires a certain amount of faith in humanity and trust that men will work extra although they will not get paid for it. People will be more likely to believe that man can transform himself and work for the benefit of others if they see this in action. Very few of the capitalists who you plan to re-educate will see that you're advocating armed revolution, but many people will see or hear about it if you work at a homeless shelter, animal shelter, etc. And if you got your friends involved and worked with the media the right way (I know, capitalist imperialist media, blah blah blah), you could inspire a lot of people. What I'm doing (volunteer work) will, ironically, have more of a positive effect assuming your revolution is successful, as compared to what you're doing (advocating!).

[CheGuevara]

Interesting idea. However, you failed to notice I used in the first sentence of my last post.

[Incognito]

Re-education is the key! We need to show the capitalists of this country just how wrong the world is today.

But how do we re-educate them? We need to get them to hear us personally, get them to read what we have to offer them. To do this we use their weakness to our advantage. The weakness I am talking about, of course, is money.

The average american will do anything for a dollar (just look at these reality television shows). Their greed is disgusting. Every year, on the busiest shopping day in the US (the day after Thanksgiving) department stores have "huge" sales or hand out "free gifts" to their first hundred or whatever customers that day. These "free gifts" are little 5 cent peices of shit, but the people line up for hours freezing their asses off for. It shows how greedy the American capitalist is.

Now if we hold public meetings around the country in our colleges and other institutions, our main obstacle is getting people in the door. If we advertised using the words "free" we just got ourselves a full house. What we offer them: free advice or books on how to become as wealthy as as their neighbors. We gather the best socialist literature of our time, publish it ourselves, and go around the country educating people about how to become as "wealthy as your neighbors". We don't use the words "socialism or "communism until we've gotten their attention. Once we get them in the door I am confident that we can change their minds, and recieve more support in future elections.

And the more people we educate then the more people (their fellow workers and students) they will educate by themselves. If everybody knew what we know there would be no problem. We need the support of the masses if this country is going to change.

[Imperial Power]

I will deny you, volunteering at a soup kitchen or some other work like that is not an exclusively socialist activity. I volunteer and I help people all the time. To many people have capitalists painted in their minds as greedy bastards. Many of the social programs in the world run on the donations of American businesses. Such as the Red Cross.

Incognito why does it make you greedy to go a TV show? I also didn't know it was greedy to go to sales at stores on the day after Thanksgiving.

[reggaenights20]

Imperial Power-

*Go and find a job so you can see the advantages of capitalism*

You really think that everyone who goes and gets a job is going to "see the advantages of capitalism? " The way the capitalistic government is set up here in the U.S. it makes it almost impossible for upward mobility no matter the job if you are poor. If you don't have the money for higher education than you almost can't get out of the rut your in. Of course some people somehow manage to do it but that doesn't solve the problem for everyone else who isn't as fortunate. No wonder why there is such a high instance of crime in the poorer parts of this country, there is nothing for them to hope for because of the way things are set up. If you are struggling just to pay rent and provide for your family and you lack the funds to get a higher education than how is "getting a job" going to reap any real benefits. The people in the rich sectors of society either don't see it or just don't care. They probably figure that they are going to be taken care of by capitalism so it doesn't matter what it does to everyone else. Capitalism breeds inquality. All I want is for everyone globally to have all that they need, to have a sense of community and to see equality. Just because you are fortunate in thsi capitalist society doesn't mean that everyone else is. You are the one living in the dream. Don't you want equality? How can anyone possibly be equal in this society when the division between the rich and poor is getting worse everyday and people like you are telling us to "get a job?"

[Imperial Power]

I am applying to work at UPS this spring I know they give you $8000 for college and more in student loans. This has been the case in almost every part time job that I've had. In the end it comes down to personal Innitiave. Of course if you do well in High School you'll get scholorships and more opportunites. I'm joining the Air Force ROTC they pay for my college and it's a 2 year commitment. There are ways to ge things done if you want them.

[Incognito]

Why should anyone have to work or join the military to receive a higher education? Imperial Power, do you agree that money should be an obstacle in the way of an education, that only the people who can afford to go to college should. A student's main priority is to be a student, and an education should be available to anyone who wants it, not only those that can afford it. If education was provided by the state, wouldn't you assume that more people would go to college, and therefore, productivity would increase, and a nation's people would become more "successful"? A socialist state will provide an education to anyone who wants it, young or old.

[Incognito]

And it's not greedy to go shopping, it shows that you capitalists will do almost anything to get what they don't need, what they want, and want leads to more want. Where will it stop? Greed will eventually consume you all. The greed of corporations has led to unsafe products that result in the injury and death of hundreds each year. But in this world, the average person doesn't matter, just as long as the rich can buy their way out of trouble with contributions to currupt leaders.

[Imperial Power]

I think working and going to school is not all bad. It shows you are a strong willed person. I may be wrong but I think California has some program where they pay foy your college. Gerneralizing all capitalists are greedy is simple propaganda. It's not the truth.

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 8:31 am on Jan. 20, 2002
. Gerneralizing all capitalists are greedy is simple propaganda.

You discribe small businesses as capitalist where we would call them small commodity producers. The ammount of bankruptcies, time, and sheer slavery to the buck puts most of these people outside the capitalist mentality. these people have petty middle class mentality outside the main players of history the capitalist class, the working class and the peasantry.
The defence of the interests of stockholders is the reasons jobs go.
If you think not all capitalists are not greedy and by implication that greed is morally wrong why not turn it into crime, you are surely against greed because it hurts other people.
You allso seem to think money is the only incentive. If so
who is paying you to come to this website with your
uneducated ill informed opinnions

[peaccenicked]

oops double posting

(Edited by peaccenicked at 1:21 pm on Jan. 20, 2002)

[Imperial Power]

I know for a fact what I've said about economics is correct. Getting into personal attacks now ehh, Peace? Is it getting to hard for you?

[peaccenicked]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 7:21 pm on Jan. 20, 2002
I know for a fact what I've said about economics is correct.


this is called arrogance. Not only are you wrong but you
have not proved anything you have asserted apart from you are middle class and American. I can back up my assertions about you but you are avoiding the arguments and are just making cheap jibes.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 4:34 pm on Jan. 21, 2002)

[Nickademus]

going to school and working is not cool. i've been doing that for years (don't make me count). it makes life very very difficult. you are so broke that if any type of emergancy happens you are screwed for the rest of the year, possibly not being able to buy the books to study. for example, this year i have had to go on extremely expensive medication ($170/month). despite living in canada, it is not covered by my health insurance. so as a student (who has been working her ass off for too long to get a bloody education to help other people) i am forced to avoid using paper, wasting pens etc. because of a medical problem i can't control.

my great aunt died this year and i couldn't afford to hop on a bus to go home for her funeral because all of the money i make goes to the school. true, i know the real world where as some students i know don't but it also makes it a lot harder for me to study. i'm not getting all the knowledge i should be getting simply because i can't concentrate due to the complete lack of sleep i'm getting (approx 4 hours a nite max).

going to school and working is NOT a good thing. Its a desperate to educate oneself thing. why do you think so many people don't go to school. they can't handle the two together. it is very very very very difficult.

[I Will Deny You]

Now that I'm in my senior year, I don't have to do as much schoolwork. Still, I have to work my ass off at my boring minimum-wage job because I have so many loans to pay back. And I know plenty of kids who had to drop out of school because they couldn't afford it anymore.

If I can't get some kind of fellowship for graduate school, I'm fucked . . .

[commie]

imperial power ha help me stop laughing your shuts a dorc never haerd of stupid niss
well this is one of them you mother fucker with your creing for god but ther is NO GOD asshole that what you in nam and 11 SEPTEMBER and dont trie to bale out with he wanted it that way because i'm very sure that your god won't let people die that way.
its just because of that stupid buch with his death penalty and that other shit i'm fucking tired of that
for example that anti rocket shield against russia and irak you really think thay want to bom America now way dude cuz then there whole population wil be gone . see afganistan thay didn't had anything to do with 11 septemper and you morrans bommd the whole place .
you just want to see blood for all your losses in wars and terrorist attacks. so here is my word to you you blood thearsty basters. your the one who is WRONG.

[revolutionary]

Any capitalist who reads these posts and knows of the situations must see the true in capitalism and the FACT that it is dictated by money

YOU CAPITALIST ARE SLAVES OF YOUR OWN INVENTIONS

Democracy my arse.

[companero]

Quote: from Imperial Power on 3:58 am on Jan. 4, 2002
The commnist theory is flawed and those of you that believe in it are blinded with ignorance. Communism never has worked and never will work.


does that mean, that you believe, you live in a working democracy?!? You just live in plain capitalism!
You can compare it with the UdSSR: It was originally meant as communism, but it got a dictatorship.
To speak about democracy: The US-people have the "choice" between the "democrats" and the "republicans". both parties get their money from the same organizations, some spend more to the democrats, some a little bit more to the republicans.
Those CNNs etc. are governing your country - not you voters. In Hitler-Germany there was a secretary for propaganda, in the /../Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush-USA there is CNN. OK, kill me for this comparison, but that's just the way it is...





Most of you seem to be Limies with nothing better to do than criticize democracy. I think you all have personal problems and lack the drive to compete in a capitalistic world.


compete in a capitalistic world? Let's talk about me: I'm one of the top third in the population, if you go by income. However, I'm not confident with the hole industrial "democracies", all dictated by the U$A.

please tell me, where do you have a working democracy, in which the people - not the big economic groups - decide the politics?

[gooddoctor]

in response to you imperial power, socialism doesn't assign anyone jobs. what are you talking about? it gives you the right to choose your job, duh!

[Imperial Power]

gooddoctor I knwo for a fact that in China they are told what jobs they will be allowed to do. And commie id need an irish translator to figure out what you said.

[peaccenicked]

How many times do you need to be told that china is not
socialist. Even moa recognised it as a fourth rate commodity producer. Socialism which has to be world wide and practiced democratically as envisioned by all
our theoriticians has in it nowhere anything but contempt for slavery of any sort.
Would you condemn christianity for what happened in the spanish inquisition or tell a christian, christianity did not work because of it?

[Imperial Power]

What does Christianity have to do with with being assigned jobs? Yes companero I do believe I'm living in a working democracy. The average citizen can work to change goverment and lobbby for new laws or run for office if so inclined. Capitalism works, based off results capitalism is the only succesful system in the modern world.

[peaccenicked]

I am using an analogy.
Learn some reading skills.
'If flower blossoms
as a child a grows'
Take the flower as the child in the analogy.
If you can see the analogy
You might not complain moronically but the child does not grow in the ground.
You just dont want to answer the point. Or maybe you are waiting for some one to do your dirty work for you.

[Red Star]

(Edited by Red Star at 11:18 pm on Jan. 24, 2002)

[Imperial Power]

So peace tell me how the spanish inquisition relates to me.

(Edited by Imperial Power at 9:35 pm on Feb. 24, 2002)

[Xvall]

Too Long!!
Too damn long!!!

- Drake Dracoli

[anarchoveganLAM]

ImperialPower seems like a Ted Nugent to me. Just another animal-slaughtering, christian, conservative, republican, amerikkkan nationalist who believes that all flag burners should be shot.

in america, we are in a free market-free to fuck eachother over, free to rob in the name of business, free to exploit the workers.
GOD BLESS AMERIKKKA!

[Nateddi]

hey, are you AmeriKKKa from the DoD forums?

[La Resistance]

USA rapes other countries (new colonialism/like having economic influence without being there, sucking in money from underpaid sweatshop workers. raise them to your own standard, think globally, to help everyone, not just people inside the hypothetical manmade boundaries...)

USA rapes the environment (BUSH: i trust my scientists versus those from other countries, like the ones i bought an hour ago)

USA rapes their own people, by giving their elite 5-20% the best possible lifestyle and fucking the rest over


USA is soooo goood, "under the flag of democracy.... right?"

[poncho]

"We must not break faith with those who are risking their lives...on every continent from Afghanistan to Nicaragua ... to defy Soviet aggression and secure rights which have been ours from birth. Support for freedom fighters is self-defense"--Ronald Reagan

The key sentance is "ours from birth" combined with laissez faiere economics principals has done more damage to South America than Stalin ever created in the Soviet Union. The sole called American backed freedom fighters in El Salvador where nothing more than gastapo death squads for killing slaves that wanted a better life free from American slavery clocked as democracy. The amount of people killed because they denied America its birth right on there sovereign land is enough to make a normal human being be sick. The Natzi comparision is about right!

[Forever capitalism]

IP had an excellent quote a few posts earlier that summed up the truth.
"Capitalism is the only successful political system in the world".
Commies, even your rhetoric and propaganda won't help you out of that hole.
BTW, rationing food, having negative growth in your economy for the past 42 years, not been allowed to vote or express your opinions is not the criteria for a successful political system. Therefore exclude Cuba, China, USSR, all eastern european states, North Korea, Vietnam and all the other communist/totalitarian regimes from your excuse list.

[companero]

Quote: from Forever capitalism on 7:07 am on Feb. 25, 2002

BTW, rationing food, having negative growth in your economy for the past 42 years, not been allowed to vote or express your opinions is not the criteria for a successful political system.

in our economy?!? You just don't understand!

1. We - me, at least - live in so-called democratic countries. E.g. I live in Germany, where the system hasn't become as cruelly capitalistic like in the USA, yet, but it is getting worse...
2. The countries you mention aren't socialist countries! For example, the USSR was as communistic as Hitler-Germany!!


Therefore exclude Cuba, China, USSR, all eastern european states, North Korea, Vietnam and all the other communist/totalitarian regimes from your excuse list.

3. You want to talk about Vietnam?!? Let's talk about Vietnam...

[Sasafrás]

I'd have to say, I've never seen a thread with so many responses.. Sorry I didn't make a valid contribution to this discussion, I just wanted to say that.

[Guest]

What you people fail to realize is that not all Americans fall under the same principals as their leader. I for one do not agree 100% with everything this government does, I do not agree with my president, etc etc. But I made that choice of becoming an American when I moved from Italy - and to be perfectly honest, it was a choice I have never regretted.
But even worse, is you all sit and ***** about the US, you complain about us all being sheep. What you AGAIN fail to realize is that the US is a huge melting pot of people from all over the world. There are many, many people here that come from other countries (including myself) to get away from their country, to get jobs, or just under the illusion that America is a better place. But dears, America is not a better place. America is what we make of it. Sure, "proud to be an American" but the only REAL Americans were the NATIVE Americans, who are sitting on reservations making moolah off of casinos. The rest of the lot came from England.
So if you'll be so narrow-minded as to blindly catagorize all of us living in America, who have become an American after so many years of citizen ship, I give a mighty "fuck off" to the lot of you. Don't bash another country when your views of it are jaded. Do some research, and learn about the country before forming an opinion.
As for the 9-11 thing, it's been way too overplayed. The American flags ARE getting ridiculous, and it's sad it takes a terrorist attack to bring the country together. Regardless, other people from other countries decided to mourn the loss - and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean someone from your own same town doesn't feel sorrow, pity, or any other human emotion.
And as for religion, I tend to steer clear of that, since I'm agnostic. ;) Let people believe in what they want to, just don't shove YOUR religious beliefs onto others.