Your ideas on Kosovo issue?

[Doctor]

:scared:

[Red_or_Dead]

I think that independent Kosovo is the only realistic option at the moment. Not that I support it. I dont support any of the sides involved. If Kosovo gets independance it will get in the EU. If it stays in Serbia... Chances are that it will end up in the EU all the same, and if it doesnt, it will still be a part of a capitalist country.

[Holden Caulfield]

it just shows the massive failure of nationalism, but if leaving Serbia is better for the human rights of Kosovans then i support its creation as a state,

however if it did stay part of Serbia maybe the dissent would make change occur and would be better than simply drawing lines amongst people therefore weakening the revolutionary power of these peoples

[mykittyhasaboner]

ethnic albanians and serbs should give up nationalism, not many of them have it their today, mostly the older generations do, unfortunately thats who runs these countries. they could use it as an advantage, many goods could be traded between these to countries if they worked together due to their integration. internationalism like the kind that existed in socialist yugoslavia will save the balkans.

[Bandito]

I am from Serbia and i strongly support Kosovo indipendance.
But,Kosovo is about to become an important imperialist strategic position in Balkan,and THAT is what Kosovo's people(Albanians,Serbs....) must take action against. The "Vetvendosje" movement is just a first step in that stuggle. They fight for self-determination of Kosovans and that is historically right position. Their fault is that they have many nationalists as their supporters,but the main target now is UNMIK(UN Mission In Kosovo) and i am sure that next one will be the new EU mission.
All people in Kosovo must realise that nationalistic desputes won't lead to anything. They have just liberated themselves from Belgrade's boot,which is good,but now they have to deal with much bigger and stronger boot-imperialist one.
My hopes are with Kosovan people that they will gain revolutionary force against new opressor,opressor that they are not even aware(yet)that it's what it is.

[R_P_A_S]

this is a subject im not really familiar with. but i saw some video footage from it... and i have a question.. why the fuck are people waving U.S. Flags there for???????????

[ComradeR]

I oppose Kosovo's independence because when one looks at the situation one sees that Kosovo's breaking away from Serbia would be a disaster for the Balkans proletariat. It increases the nationalist fervor and exacerbates the divisions of the workers. Not to mention that Kosovo is completely incapable of supporting it's own independence. It has very little infrastructure, massive unemployment and none of the resources necessary for independence or development. When it declares independence it will find itself under the complete economic and military dominance of the western imperialists. So in reality it's so called independence will be an illusion. In short all it will accomplish will be the further dividing of the working class and the extension of imperialist neo-colonialism.

this is a subject im not really familiar with. but i saw some video footage from it... and i have a question.. why the fuck are people waving U.S. Flags there for???????????Because the Kosovo nationalists love the US as it's been very supportive of Kosovo's push for "independence" (i.e. in reality becoming one of it's neo-colonies).

[Edelweiss]

Obviously the movement for an independent Kosovo is deeply reactionary. You don't need to see the US flags waved by the people there right now to realize that. The UCK is/was a bunch of thugs and criminals pepped up by German intelligence and than overtook by US intelligence to further spread the ethnic virus in the Balkans to crush Yugoslavia and gain hegemonic influence. Kosovo shoudln't be "independent", it just would be a victory for US and EU imperialism. Countless Serbs have been victim of this and had to face expulsion.

I'm wondering though how those how Maoists and the likes, those how are in favour of "national liberation" and the bourgeois idea of "national self-determination" see this issue. here we have a pro-US independent national liberation movement backed by a majority of the people. If the followers of the idea of "national liberation" would be any consistent, they should now also support the Kosovo independence. But I guess "national self-determination" is only granted to those who choose the right imperialist power as their buddies by the "leftist" disciples of nationalism.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

The UCK and their ilk show exactly what kind of scum the regime of Hoxha had to fight against. These are the types that had connections to emigre communities in the West. Shortly after WWII, camps were set up for such people in Italy and Germany(and Yugoslavia too I believe). Emigre mercenaries were trained and parachuted into the outskirt regions of Albania in order to set up guerrilla warfare bands. Luckily back then their was Enver Hoxha, and the Albanian people were vigilant against such criminal scum. For this reason these teams had no support from the people, even far from the cities, and were easily intercepted and wiped out every time. Also, didn't hurt that a certain British agent involved in the campaign was feeding signals information to socialist Albania. So yes, even folks in imperialist countries can assist the revolution!

Now on to the Kosovo issue specifically. This is a deep-rooted issue for me due to my years of hanging out in the Yugoslav community of my home city. Though I was against the bombing of Serbia, I later abandoned the pro-Serbian, pro-Slavic stance I had, seeing that there is good evidence to show that Kosovo was indeed Albanian land unjustly taken by the Serbian Kingdom and later Tito. That being said, this does not make any Albanian laying claim to the land a rightful owner, especially not the gangster scum that rule this little island of women and drug trafficking today. Enver Hoxha proposed a democratic referendum on Kosova rejoining Albania, not becoming some independent country, and in it the Serbs would have had full protection under the law.

Furthermore, the idea of giving the postage-stamp Kosova
independence is just another example of the EU/NATO constantly breaking down every Eastern European union, and even states, just so as to render them utterly dependent and put them into competition with one another.
By not even so much as uniting Kosova with Albania, they are not granting independence but rather total dependence.

[Edelweiss]

By not even so much as uniting Kosova with Albania, they are not granting independence but rather total dependence.

What a bullshit. A "great Albania" is one of the key demands of the UCK, which yourself described as gangsters.

[Autonome-Antifa]

Delete all borders of the world and the people will be free.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

What a bullshit. A "great Albania" is one of the key demands of the UCK, which yourself described as gangsters.


Usually this "demand" is projected upon the UCK by the Serbian nationalists and other opponents in the region. However, were it even true, it does not matter, since the issue is Kosovo independence and not unification with Serbia. The idea is to continually break down every nation into small, competing factions. How many secessions have their been since 1991, and how many re-unifications? As far as I know there have been none of the latter. Even the Bosnian RS is not allowed to join with Serbia proper, while Montenegro was encouraged to secede for no discernible reason.

Yet when we look to Western Europe, how are the autonomy movements treated? In Ireland, Basque country, and Germany(Sorbian nationalists for example). It is a clear double standard- any autonomy movement with a website gets the support of NATO/EU in Eastern Europe, whereas autonomy movements within the original EU are suppressed.

[Colonello Buendia]

seconded. my personal opinion is that Kosovo shall not be able to survive in a capitalist society. I don't know enough about the situation to say much more

[Holden Caulfield]

in the UK and Spain at least from my knowledge there is no reason for nationalist seperations as there is a level of equality between the groups, that is to say a Basque kid can do all the same things as a Castillian kid, and so these movements are now impotent,

[Bandito]

All of you that say that Kosovo will become an expositure of imperialism are right.
Method of sel-determination that Kosovo's Albanians had was wrong,nationalistic and now under deep apreciation of what "USA did".
But status that Kosova had while being in Serbia(although it wasn't under serbian jurisdiction after NATO bombing in '99,there is just paragraph 1244 that said it is a part of Yugoslavia) was a disaster. Nationalistic tensisons just rised after no final solution being made. Serbian side had an idea of separating Kosovo,which is the worst solution. How can someone break of of national hate when he cannot come across the other nation's canton without being shot by a sniper.
Kosovo is a very delicate issue,but i believe and repeat that Kosovo will now SEE who his enemies are NOW,see that US support wasn't because they are good to Albanians. And later fight against te new,stronger enemy than Belgrade was.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

in the UK and Spain at least from my knowledge there is no reason for nationalist seperations as there is a level of equality between the groups, that is to say a Basque kid can do all the same things as a Castillian kid, and so these movements are now impotent,

Yes but such equality existed in a number of other unions that the west insisted on breaking up, such as in Czechoslovakia or the Soviet Union.

[Awful Reality]

My thoughts?
This is a pretty open-and-shut issue from a standpoint of human rights. Serbian nationalism, throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, has proven to be nothing but a menace to the surrounding peoples. Kosovo has every right to self determination and rebellion, yet I doubt it will end up self-determined.

[Holden Caulfield]

im not on the side of the nationalists i agree with you pal,
nationalism is usually a reactionary force no matter who is implementing it

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

My thoughts?
This is a pretty open-and-shut issue from a standpoint of human rights. Serbian nationalism, throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, has proven to be nothing but a menace to the surrounding peoples. Kosovo has every right to self determination and rebellion, yet I doubt it will end up self-determined.

What you call nationalism, in the 21st century, was mostly just organized crime beneath a tricolor veil. Kosova should never have been considered as an independent country, simply because it cannot stand on its own. Unified with Albania it might have a fighting chance were it not for the fact that thanks to Europe and the US, Albania is now run by literal criminals.

[spartan]

What you call nationalism, in the 21st century, was mostly just organized crime beneath a tricolor veil. Kosova should never have been considered as an independent country, simply because it cannot stand on its own. Unified with Albania it might have a fighting chance were it not for the fact that thanks to Europe and the US, Albania is now run by literal criminals.

Yeah but i feel that the chances are that an independent Kosovo will go into union, or an economic and defence union, with Albania sooner than later.

It would be a good union as well because both states have something in common, they are both pro-US whores:D

Anyway no side in this struggle has right on their side or is more progressive than the other.

This is much more than just one region wanting independence, it is an inter-Imperialist struggle between the US and Russia who are both trying to expand and retain certain areas which they regard as their "spheres of influence".

Oh yeah i just thought that i might add that Kosovo has already declared independence from Serbia.

[Die Neue Zeit]

For our Dutch-speaking comrades here, this article on the Kosovo sex trade may be of some interest:

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuwsthema/kosovo/article938080.ece/Kosovo__Noem_je_prijs%2C_hier_kan_alles

I used a web translator, and this is the best translation:


Kosovo: ‘You name price, here is possible everything’

By Tijn Sadee

From outside motel considers groningen as prijsstunter to a Dutch piece of furniture boulevard. With the cheapest construction material the pand is negligent in each other put. Only suggest more neon-relieved palmboompjes and ‘’ the heading sauna to the gevel. Exotica in the Kosovan verge.

Outside the lorry traffic concerning the way rumbles. Within, in motel groningen, to sit considers sparingly dressed hoeren around a table with full ashtrays. „This is a quiet evening,” says to host Kemajl, young Kosovo-Albanees. „But on Friday we have a full tent.”

With an excusing can he indicates to the dark angle with the little girls, all eight from under fallen on neplederen banks. „From Oekraïene. That is most beautiful”, says Kemajl.

In break English incorporates of the little girls chagrijnig the order, introduces two glazen with lukewarm vodka and schuift then at the group. „This way jammer that my boss is not there, he sits in the Netherlands, says” Kemajl now. He obtains a photograph at voorschijn of a man with overgewicht, hangsnor and dark optical device-brillenglazen. Kemajls boss are Dutch for the – in groningen and neighbourhood slaughters he sick varkens, sheep and cows.

„If the boss is here he always photograph shows’s of Dutch sheep, then is-ie proudly”, laughs Kemajl.

Customers who want more than lukewarm vodka must approach the little girl himself. „Nobody to you force itself, who is the house rules,” explains Kemajl. „You note its mobile number, you tell where you live or stay, and the little girl just as later your door is delivered.” In Kosovo motel groningen is notorious. The everyone firstly knew bordeel under the name Amsterdam. There a politie-inval followed. The tent change of owner and name. New neon characters were introduced. But change little for Kemajl and the oekraïense hoeren there. Concerning klandizie he does not have to complain still.

Vrouwenhandel

Motel groningen stands on top of the off limits-lijst of UNMIK, the vn-missie which has controlled the Serbian province since the war for Kosovo (1998-1999). In sum the list 108 bordelen counts and dozens casino’s. Vn-personeel is requested stay away by the mission control. „The owners have been possibly involved in vrouwenhandel,” stand in Unmik-handleiding.

In capital Pristina the anger concerning the off limits-lijst is large. „To assess tel the morality of UNMIK I the number of bordelen,” say to Albin Kurti, LEADER of the Kosovan movement self-determination, which pleads for years for the departure of the vn-missie. „The bordelen were not here before UNMIK came. Them our morals has battered and our women break.” Kurti, confessed for its hard judgements, get nuanced assistence. „You staff advise against access to hoerenkasten with possible seksslaven, but there at the same time as law hand oats nothing to do, which is too crazy for words”, says a European diplomat, operative in Kosovo.

For nine years was UNMIK the boss in Kosovo which tomorrow by all odds independent explains itself. With that an end comes to the vn-missie which to be transfers tasks to new Kosovo-missie of the European Union. UNMIK were all that time responsible for legislation, setting up a police force power and the advancement of public governing board. Thousands of UN’ers arrived in Kosovo. 16,000 Kfor-soldaten sent the NATO. Dozens of aid organisations put their offices.

„With the arrival of all that international there is a new economics ontstaan where for offenders much to obtain is, says” to the Kosovan police constable B. X.th he leads the team that fights against trafficking in human beings in Kosovo. From security considerations he does not want with its real name in the newspaper. „I am must stop with my undercover-werk. Kosovo is small. Everyone knows each other.”

He calls Kosovo ‘a magnet’ with a large attraction. B.X.: „Criminal gangs obtain little girls to Kosovo which is used in the sex industry. An market for trafficking in human beings has arisen. The gangs consider the little girls as products.”

On the question side international, say B.X. predominate „during undercover operations tell to the little girls us that the most of their customers Kfor-soldaten are. To bed go with a hoer is for an ordinary kosovaar much too expensive.” Largely half of the two millions kosovaren is younger than thirty years, of which the majority is unemployed. B.X.: „I deserve scarcely two hundred euro as a police constable. A hoer costs here hundred euro. Only already for ice tea in the nightclub of Hasan Lludi you ten pay euro.”

Hasan Lludi mean crazy Hasan, the nickname of a sex entrepreneur from Pristina who since the war still has walked around with a ball in its head. At Hasan work mainly oekraïense little girls. „Those stand in the order at the top, they are most expensive”, ends up neighbouring country Albania and more and more moldavië and EU-MEMBER states Romania and Bulgaria says many little girls to B.X.. „From Bulgaria more and more gypsy women, who stand confessed as cheap, come. Eu-paspoort have them, therefore it is possible that they have come by one's own free will.”

How much of the little girls victim is of trafficking in human beings arse is for B.X. retrieve with difficulty. Since 2004 its team has had, thanks to tightened up legislation, more possibilities in bordelen to enter to do. But the gangs have anticipated here on. Little girls are always more often held in private apartments, say to B.X. the customer ring, and the little girl is brought.

Albanian mafia

The Albanezen in Kosovo use the mobile network with country number + 377. Kosovo-Serviërs have been connected on the Serbian mobile net, novice with + 381. „Scanning mobile telephone conversations us at the detection enormously of just come,” says B.X. „but Belgrado prohibits listen our by means of their + 381-net. And the Albanian mafia weet that, thus they use for their trade + 381-nummer.”

With UNMIK and KFOR B.X. have discussed the problems and the sex market mapped. „Within those organisations disciplinary measures have been taken against employees who misbehaved. But moreover there is still the international that here work for the dozens civil aid organisations. On what they do has we no visibility.”

„You name price, here is everything possible!” Natasja say, what put, hoogblonde lady. In a café in the Kosovan city Urosevac its two mobile tel. hand range on table lie. She is ‘a madam’ with contacts. Constant conversations come. Do we need something? „Say it but, then I it regulates.”

A couple year suffered came Natasja from the oekraïense city Lvov to Urosevac, bijgenaamd Bordelenstad. „There are meanwhile more than three hundred oekraïense meiden in Urosevac,” say Natasja. „Living is here well.”

A track line crosses out the foeilelijke city which grew the last years explosive. Verderop Bondsteel, the largest and best equipped American army basis on European territory is. The economy of Urosevac is not possible without Bondsteel. Along the track line small bordelen have established. Bulgarian gypsy women sit in café Plovdiv. „Do not strike as,” Councils the boys of a shop. „Bad quality. For the overkant, in Trimi and Texas, there work beautiful moldavische hoeren.”

The rise of the sex industry, at the same time with the arrival of ‘international’, calls Sondeijker ‘a painful observation.’ He sighs. „You have here 16,000 Kfor-soldaten.”

Under the current Finnish presidency of the ovse the emphasis on the fight against trafficking in human beings lies. Sondeijker: „We train policemen and we devote oneself for a better witness protection programme. Little girls who escape from hands of trafficking in human beings arse catch we during thirty days. Them have then the time on breathe to come, to reflect on what has happened. From the conversations we get further information on the gangs.”

Beggars

Victims of trafficking in human beings not only end up in the sex industry, say Sondeijker. „In the streets of Pristina swarms of the children who beg up to middernacht or sell snoep and smuggled cigarettes. They come for the most part from large families in neighbouring country Albania.”

Sondeijker recently a television campaign put on to bring the trade in children under the attention. Sondeijker: „In tv-spotje are told parents how they can prevent that their children in found oneself hands fall.” But it is no easy message, he admits. „To survive its many families dependent on the money which those children beg at each other.”

In the afternoon Sondeijker with a colleague of the French aid organisation Terre des Hommes go to a suburb of Pristina. Compared with the train station of Kosovo Fushë wide fifty people repress themselves for kantoortje where UNMIK distribute money. To the very poorest in Kosovo UNMIK give 35 euro per month, per family.

In the office it is drawn and is pushed. Even if an hour stand wait they. The printer, which bewijs-van-ontvangst-documenten must spit out, has broken down. „With that 35 euro we it do not save,” say a woman in the file. “The children go each day on their fietsjes to Pristina. To beg and to collect old iron.”

To the edge of the district Asjkali-families in krotten on the vuilnisbelt live. Much Asjkali-kinderen have been obtained from other’region s in Kosovo by means of family members or gangs to Pristina work. ‘Internally trafficked’, sound the predikaat that Terre des Hommes them have stuck. From conversations which conduct Terre-psychologen on the street with the children becomes clear that possible also sexual abuse of them is made. „It is enormously cumbersome get truth above table”, says Richard Sondeijker. „Everyone is present here klem in the same poor circumstances, in which you improve things can conceal. What we to have child abuse and sex slavery in picture only the topje of the ijsberg is.”

Police constable B.X. has become the last time careful. „We work as Kosovan police force without only insurance. As me something happens, has my family nothing.”

Independent Kosovo – has there he and its team it those years for done, says B.X. without „health insurance all I for nine years the heavy crime has fought. Everything for the advancement of a new country.”

Or it between the serviërs and the Albanezen in Kosovo ever still well comes, about that he cherishes no illusions. „But on criminal nivo they can find each other, however. The Serbian and Albanian mafia gangs cooperate excellent. For years.”

[Awful Reality]

What you call nationalism, in the 21st century, was mostly just organized crime beneath a tricolor veil. Kosova should never have been considered as an independent country, simply because it cannot stand on its own. Unified with Albania it might have a fighting chance were it not for the fact that thanks to Europe and the US, Albania is now run by literal criminals.

Granted, but I believe that were Kosovo self-determined one of the following would occur:

1) Kosovo would enter a military-industrial trade agreement with Albania that would provide it with some stability at least for a short while, or;

2) The much more likely possibility- That some interventionist force would immediately step in, be it the US, the EU, etc, and implant Kosovo with its own imperialist protected lackey government.

PS: I am offended by your blog's description of "trotskidiots." Not only does the term offend me, but your post describing their self-contradictory views exhibits a lack of knowledge concerning Trotskyist doctrine.+

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

Granted, but I believe that were Kosovo self-determined one of the following would occur:

1) Kosovo would enter a military-industrial trade agreement with Albania that would provide it with some stability at least for a short while, or;

2) The much more likely possibility- That some interventionist force would immediately step in, be it the US, the EU, etc, and implant Kosovo with its own imperialist protected lackey government.

PS: I am offended by your blog's description of "trotskidiots." Not only does the term offend me, but your post describing their self-contradictory views exhibits a lack of knowledge concerning Trotskyist doctrine.+

Kosova should not be an independent country. They have had an imperialist puppet government from the beginning, just like that they put in power in Albania.

And you are welcome to comment on the blog if you don't like it. I have some particularly amusing Trotsky quotes.

[Tower of Bebel]

For our Dutch-speaking comrades here, this article on the Kosovo sex trade may be of some interest:

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuwsthema/kosovo/article938080.ece/Kosovo__Noem_je_prijs%2C_hier_kan_alles

I used a web translator, and this is the best translation:

I was able to translate the first part of the text. I might translate the last part on the Albanian mob later.


After nine years of UN-guardianship Kosovo will probably declare itself independent. It’s a society which is morally broken with a growing sex industry.

From the outside motel Groningen looks like a prijsstunter (wtf?) in a Dutch furniture boulevard (wtf?). The building is built with the cheapest materials. Only neon lights and the word ‘sauna’ at the wall suggest more. Something exotic in a Kosovarian street.
Outside trucks rumble on the street. Inside the motel are 8 nude prostitutes around a table with their ashtray filled. “This is a calm night” says host Kemajl, a young Albanian Kosovar. “But on Friday the places is packed”. He points to a dark corner where the girls lie down on fake leather benches. “From the Ucraine. These are the most beautiful”, says Kemajl. In bad English one of the girls takes orders, brings two glasses of vodka and then she gets back to her Group. “Shameful that my boss isn’t here with us, he’s in Holland now,” says Kemajl. He has two pictures of a man overweight, with a moustache and dark glasses. Kemajl’s boss is a Dutch butcher – In Groningen he butches pigs, sheep and cows. Kemajl laughs: “When the boss visits he always shows us his pictures of Dutch sheep. He’s proud of it”.
Costumers who want more than vodka have to aproche the girl. Kemajl explains: “Nobody will force you, those are the rules. You retrieve the number of her mobile phone, you tell her where you stay, and the girl will be delivered shortly after.” In Kosovo motel Groningen is well known (though in a bad way). Every calls it Amsterdam. A police raid once followed. The place changed its name, it received another owner. But for Kemajl and the prostitutes nothing has changed.


http://www.nrc.nl/redactie/foto/kosovo/
A series of photos from the photographer of the NCR Handelsblad Dirk-jan Visser in Kosovo


Trade in women.
Motel Groningen stands on top of the off limits list of the UNMIK, the mission of the UN controlling the Serbian province since the war in Kosovo (1998-1999). The list counts 108 brothels and dozens of casinos. UN personnel are thought to stay out of these places. “The owners are probably trading women,” says the UNMIK manual.
In Pristina people are enraged because of this off limits list. “To judge the moral of the UNMIK I count every brothel,” says Albin Kurti, leider of the Kosvarian movement “Independence”, who for years struggled for the UN to get out of Kosovo. “They made our country and our women morally broken.” Kurti, known for his sayings, tries to discriminate: “getting your UN-personnel out of the brothels where possible sex slaves are forced to work, but at the same time ignoring any attempt to pass a law against them is just crazy” says a European diplomat in Kosovo
.
For nine years the UNMIK ruled over Kosovo. The independence might end the mission of the UN. Now the European Kosovo-mission is standing by. The UNMIK was responsible for all kinds of legislation, the building of a police force and the restoration of government. Thousends of UN-personnel arrived in Kosovo. NATO sent 16,000 KFOR-soldiers. Dozens of health-care organisations set up their offices.
“With the arrival of the “internationals” a new economy came with them, where criminal activity can easily flourish,” says a Kosovarian police officer (named B. X.). He leads a team that fights commerce in human beings (I don’t know what the right English word might be). Because of security he wants to stay anonymous. “I quit doing under-cover work. Kosovo is to small.
He calls Kosovo a magnet. B. X.: “criminals pick up girls and take them to Kosovo to work as sex slaves. A market in human commodity has been created. The gangs see girls as products”. The “internationals” have a great demand says B.X. “During under-cover operations girls told me that most costumers are KFOR-soldiers. Prostitues are to expensive for most ordinary Kosovars.” More than one million Kosovars are younger than 30, of who the majority is unemployed. BX.: “I earn as a police officer 200 euros. A prostitute costs 100 euros. An ice-tea in nicht club Hasan Lludi costs 10 euros.”
Hasan Lludi means crazy Hasan, the nickname of a “sex-capitalist” from Pristina who since the war walks around with a bullet in his head. Hasan mostly employs Ukrainian girls. “The hit the top of the list, they are the most expensive,” says B.X. Many girls come from Albania en in growing proportions from Moldavia and the EU (Bulgaria and Rumania).” B.X. cannot possibly know how many girls became victims of this trade. Since 2004 his team, thanks to legislation, has more possibilities to raid a brothel. But gangs have learned. Girls are now mostly held in small private apartments says B.X. A costumer calls and the girls will be delivered.

[MT5678]

Right now Kosovars live like shit in a land rife with poverty and unemployment.

But where there's trouble, Captain Neoliberalism to the rescue, right?:rolleyes:

Kosovo will just end up looking like Pakistan in a bit.

[Awful Reality]

Kosova should not be an independent country. They have had an imperialist puppet government from the beginning, just like that they put in power in Albania.

Okay, that makes total sense. The Serbs are criminals, as you contend, because of interventionist involvement, except they have rights to Kosovo only because Kosovo is also governed by the interventionists. Now I completely get it! </sarcasm>

[Bandito]

Yeah but i feel that the chances are that an independent Kosovo will go into union, or an economic and defence union, with Albania sooner than later.


I pretty much doubt that it will happen. Situation in Kosovo is very similar to the Vojvodina issue,when Trianon agreement took Vojvodina from its historical base,Hungary. Few years ago,Vojvodinian Hungarians clained their right for double passports. Hungary simply replied with a NO.
In relationships between Albanians in Balkan there is a very delicate situation. Most of them hate each other. Albanians from Albania hate Kosovan Alanians,same with the Montenegro Albanians.
Therefore,i see no such union i present time.

[Cmde. Slavyanski]

Okay, that makes total sense. The Serbs are criminals, as you contend, because of interventionist involvement, except they have rights to Kosovo only because Kosovo is also governed by the interventionists. Now I completely get it! </sarcasm>

When did I make this claim? The issue here is that the dismantling of Kosovo was an act of imperialism. It was not done out of genuine concern for who belongs on that land, as Enver Hoxha envisioned. Likewise there was no regard as to what would happen to the Serbian minority. The UCK was a terrorist organization that won its war with NATO backing. Do you think they aren't going to pay the piper?

The fact is that all over Eastern Europe, autonomy movements spring up, re-inventing history, and demanding recognition. And the EU and NATO supports all of this, save for when it detracts from one of their allies in favor of their rival, such as Russia. A perfect example is South Ossetia, which wishes to join North Ossetia as part of the Russian Federation. Since Georgia is a good puppet state, the EU looks down on this autonomous movement. Of course perhaps if South Ossetia wanted to be another totally-dependent postage stamp country, begging at the door of Brussels, I'm sure they'd change their mind.

[Edelweiss]

The fact is that all over Eastern Europe, autonomy movements spring up, re-inventing history, and demanding recognition. And the EU and NATO supports all of this, save for when it detracts from one of their allies in favor of their rival, such as Russia.

But as a matter of fact, some "leftist" disciples of national liberation are in no way better. They do support any random national liberation movement around the world as long as it's "fighting US imperialism and zionism". And I'm not speaking about relatively progressive, anti-fascist, anti-racist, proletarian national liberation movements like the ETA here, we all know that we have many "leftists" here granting support to any national liberation movement, no matter how reactionary their goals are, as long as it's against the US.

When it now comes to pro-western national liberation movement such as in Kossovo, who just did choose another imperialist power to back them than the others, the whole idea of national liberation and the "right of national self-determination" is breaking apart like a chart house. Obviously Maoists and their ideological buddies, do grant "national self-determination" only to those who choose the right side, just like the EU and the US now, and here the whole hypocrisy and idiocy of the idea of a "right to national self-determination", as if it's something progressive or something socialists should demand, becomes apparent.

[mykittyhasaboner]

kosovo just delared unilateral independence from serbia, i cant post links but you can see the news on wikipedia.

[Xiao Banfa]

When it now comes to pro-western national liberation movement such as in Kossovo, who just did choose another imperialist power to back them than the others, the whole idea of national liberation and the "right of national self-determination" is breaking apart like a chart house. Obviously Maoists and their ideological buddies, do grant "national self-determination" only to those who choose the right side, just like the EU and the US now, and here the whole hypocrisy and idiocy of the idea of a "right to national self-determination", as if it's something progressive or something socialists should demand, becomes apparent


I'm not a maoist, but I support national liberation movements if they are progressive and harm imperialism. This doesn't include Tibet, Katanga or an independent afrikaner homeland.

National liberation is just a tactic, not a fetish.

[Edelweiss]

I'm not a maoist, but I support national liberation movements if they are progressive and harm imperialism.

The Kossovo independence movement is harming Russian imperialism. It's also not any less progressive than your fucking Islamist movements you support in the name of "anti-imperialism".

So where's the logic here?

[PRC-UTE]

But as a matter of fact, some "leftist" disciples of national liberation are in no way better. They do support any random national liberation movement around the world as long as it's "fighting US imperialism and zionism". And I'm not speaking about relatively progressive, anti-fascist, anti-racist, proletarian national liberation movements like the ETA here, we all know that we have many "leftists" here granting support to any national liberation movement, no matter how reactionary their goals are, as long as it's against the US.

When it now comes to pro-western national liberation movement such as in Kossovo, who just did choose another imperialist power to back them than the others, the whole idea of national liberation and the "right of national self-determination" is breaking apart like a chart house. Obviously Maoists and their ideological buddies, do grant "national self-determination" only to those who choose the right side, just like the EU and the US now, and here the whole hypocrisy and idiocy of the idea of a "right to national self-determination", as if it's something progressive or something socialists should demand, becomes apparent.

The problem here is that like many critics of national liberation from the left, you have actually debased the meaning of the term by using it completely out of the context it was originally meant.

National liberation (in marxist theory) =/= any and all seperatist movement

[Xiao Banfa]

The Kossovo independence movement is harming Russian imperialism. It's also not any less progressive than your fucking Islamist movements you support in the name of "anti-imperialism".

They can call themselves leprechaun transsexuals for all I care as long as they support a minimum of realtively progressive demands, which Hezbollah do. I'm not supporting Al-Qaeda.

I'm not necessarily fervently opposed to Kosovar independence, it's just not a progressive national liberation movement.

[Edelweiss]

you have actually debased the meaning of the term by using it completely out of the context it was originally meant.

So enlighten me, how was it originally meant? National self-determination only for those where it's tactically of advantage, like Xiao Banfa thinks it is?


National liberation (in marxist theory)

Marxist theory == "the worker has no fatherland" - the communist manifesto

[Edelweiss]

They can call themselves leprechaun transsexuals for all I care as long as they support a minimum of realtively progressive demands, which Hezbollah do.

You must be kidding me. Are you seriously telling me that an deeply anti-semitic, Islamist organization struggling for a feudal state based Sharia law, is any more progressive than a movement struggling for a US/EU backed bourgeois democracy, only because Hezbollah is displaying some sort of social opportunism (already the Nazis did that BTW)? Or are you referring to their anti-semitism, masked as anti-zionism? Is that what you think is "progressive"?! How is it any more "progressive" than the anti-Russian (imperialist) stance of the Kossovo-Albanians?

Like a chart house...

[Die Neue Zeit]

The more I learn about Connolly (from PRC-UTE), the more receptive I am towards his ideas concerning national liberation (inextricably tied to socialist revolution).

[Devrim]

I think the one thing that is made clear by this whole affair is that there can't be national independence today.

Devrim

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ What about Cascadia (http://www.revleft.com/vb/soviet-empire-com-t70827/index.html), then? :glare:

[Red_or_Dead]

To put my two cents in...

As I statet in the beginning of this thread, I do not support any of the sides involved. I would support an independant Kosovo, even as a capitalist country, but this newly proclaimed country is not and never will be truly independant. Foreign companies have been present there, ever since the war ended in 1999, and Kosovo by itself doesnt really have any means to fight an "economic occupation" if we can call it that. I would say that as of yesterday the western empires are richer for yet another puppet state. We are right now in a pretty similar situation as Kosovo will be in a few yers time (tho theirs might be even worse). We declared independance from the former state, and now that independance is lost in EU and NATO, Croatians are well on the way to doing the same, and Kosovo will inevitably follow. Divide and conquer.

Putin made a statement, and I completly agree with him. He attacked the double standards of the EU and America. He put forward an example of some other small countries from the former USSR (the only one I can remember right now is Pridniester, officialy a part of Moldavia, De Facto independant), that have been de facto independant for years, but are still waiting to be internationaly reckognized.

Also, from what I researched, Kosovo has the same political problem, as is present in every corner of the former state, and that is the absence of revolutionary leftist parties/movements. Even tho they exist, they dont have any power to actively do something about the trap that the succesor states are going in, one by one.

[Hiero]

When it now comes to pro-western national liberation movement such as in Kossovo, who just did choose another imperialist power to back them than the others, the whole idea of national liberation and the "right of national self-determination" is breaking apart like a chart house. Obviously Maoists and their ideological buddies, do grant "national self-determination" only to those who choose the right side, just like the EU and the US now, and here the whole hypocrisy and idiocy of the idea of a "right to national self-determination", as if it's something progressive or something socialists should demand, becomes apparent.


That is not true. As a Maoist I support national-determination. Kosovo independence is backed by EU imperialism, so it can't be a national liberation move, so I don't support it. It is the same for other fake national liberation movements, like Tibet.

I basically agree with what your first post stated.

I think that the ideal goal would be a socialist union in Serbia with minority rights for minority groups.

[Hiero]

BEIJING, Feb. 18 (Xinhua) -- The international community has continued to respond with mixed feelings to Kosovo's official declaration of independence on Sunday.

Serbian President Boris Tadic on Sunday called on UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to order the chief of the UN mission in Kosovo to annul Kosovo independence and to dissolve the interim parliament of Kosovo, the official Tanjug news agency reported.
"I call upon you to ensure that your Special Representative in Kosovo exercises his powers and responsibilities by immediately declaring this illegal act null and void," Tadic wrote in a letter to the UN chief.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-02/18/xinsrc_4420205171729328287028.jpg
An ethnic Albanian worker from Kosovo draws an Albanian flag near the town of Urusevac, southeast of the capital Pristina Feb. 16, 2008. The international community has continued to respond with mixed feelings to Kosovo's official declaration of independence on Sunday. (Xinhua/Reuters Photo)
Photo Gallery>>> (http://www.chinaview.cn/photos/index.htm)

"I also expect him to act pursuant to the Constitutional Framework for Provisional Self-Government in Kosovo (UNMIK/REG/2001/9 of 15 May 2001, para 8.1 b)) and dissolve the Assembly of Kosovo, since its 'declaration of independence' is not in conformity with Security Council Resolution 1244 (1999)," the letter read.
Tadic also requested that the UN Security Council declare Kosovo independence legally invalid.
"We insist that the Security Council fully protect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Serbia, as is called for in the UN Charter," Tadic wrote, urging the Security Council "to take urgent and effective action to ensure that all provisions of Resolution 1244 are fully respected".
Indonesia deplores failed negotiations at the UN Security Council as Kosovo unilaterally declared independence, saying it cannot immediately decide whether to recognize its independence or not.
"With Kosovo unilaterally declaring independence, we deplore failure in the dialogue," Indonesian UN ambassador Marty Natalegawa was quoted Monday by the national Antara news agency assaying.
"Since the very beginning, we have wanted that the final status of Kosovo is achieved through peaceful dialogues," he told the agency in New York.
"At present, we are not in the position to recognize (Kosovo's independence). The Indonesian government is monitoring the latest developments of the settlement process, which we certainly hope to be in accordance with the international principles and realities on the ground," said Marty.
The Ugandan government is carefully studying Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence before it makes a decision to recognize it as a state or not.
Okello Oryem, Minister of State for International Affairs said Monday that Cabinet will discuss the declaration on Wednesday in the presence of President Yoweri Museveni before coming out with apposition.
Singaporean Foreign Ministry said Monday that the country is still studying Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence from Serbia.
Responding to media queries, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said in a statement that it is a "controversial move that has many complex ramifications around the world." He added that "the situation under international law is not clear and the kind of precedent that could be set needs to be carefully assessed."
Meanwhile, New Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark said on Monday that her country will not recognize the independence of Kosovo.
She told a press conference that it is never the New Zealand government's position to offer diplomatic recognition in such circumstances.
"We neither recognize nor not recognize," she told reporters, adding that the New Zealand government will not make a formal statement.
Clark also hoped Kosovo's declaration of independence from Serbia would not lead to violence.
For its part, the Sri Lankan government said it did not endorse the unilateral secession of Kosovo from the Republic of Serbia because it could pose a grave threat to international peace and security, the official Daily News said Monday.
The newspaper quoted a statement issued Sunday night by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as saying that the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo could set an unmanageable precedent in the conduct of international relations and the established global order of sovereign states.
"We note that the declaration of independence was made without the consent of the majority of the people of Serbia and is a violation of the Charter of the United Nations, which enshrines the sovereignty and territorial integrity of member states," the statement said.
"Moreover, UN Security Council Resolution 1244 of June 10, 1999 reaffirms commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all states of the region."
"This action is particularly regrettable, since all efforts at reaching a negotiated political settlement on the future status of Kosovo, as envisaged by the Security Council Resolution 1244, have not been exhausted," the statement added.
Shortly after Kosovo declared independence from Serbia on Sunday, Hungarian Foreign Minister Kinga Goncz said that Hungary wants to see Kosovo stick with the Ahtisaari plan, which includes guaranteeing minority rights, MTI news agency reported.
"In Hungary we consider it extremely important that Kosovo stick with the principles and values set in the Ahtisaari Plan, drawn up on commission of the UN Secretary-General. That includes democracy, rule of law, and the operation of a market economy. But, most of all, it means ensuring minority communities of the rights they are entitled to," Goncz was quoted as saying.
On its part, Hungary continues to call for a joint European Union position that focuses on an acceptable solution to the Kosovo issue, a position on increasing stability in the region, on cooperation with Serbia as a good neighbor, and on the interests of the ethnic Hungarian community living in Serbia, she said.
Bangladesh on Monday said it is very closely following the current development in Kosovo with like-minded countries.
A Foreign Ministry spokesman said, "We are following the issue very closely with like-minded countries, and also the relevant on-going Security Council deliberations at the United Nations. Decisions on matters such as this are always taken on the basis of perceived national self interest."
Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Nobutaka Machimura said on Monday his country is considering to recognize Kosovo as an independent state.
Machimura made the remarks at a press conference earlier in the day. He said the Japanese government is "moving toward recognizing" Kosovo since the progress seen was in line with Japan's criteria for recognizing states.
Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd expressed Monday his support for the independence of Kosovo.
Rudd told ABC Radio that the Australian government believes an independent Kosovo will be a good thing and it will offer official diplomatic recognition at the earliest opportunity.
He also said the sorry history of Kosovo means Australia has to do whatever it can to ensure the citizens of that part of the world are protected in the future.
European Union foreign ministers are to meet in Brussels on Monday to seek for a common platform on Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence.
The 27-nation EU remains divided over whether to recognize Kosovo's independence from Serbia.
Britain, France, Germany and Italy, along with the United States, are intent to support the move. Their foreign ministers are expected to voice their backing to the independence and try to persuade other member states to follow suit.
But Cyprus, Greece, Romania and Spain have rejected the one-sided declaration of independence at least in the short term for fear that it would become a dangerous precedent for other separatist movements.
Romanian Foreign Minister Adrian Cioroianu said on Sunday that Romania's stand on Kosovo's independence remains the same, as his country will not recognize its independence.
The Spanish government on Sunday expressed its opposition to Kosovo's independence, saying it is beyond international laws for Kosovo to unilaterally declare its separation from Serbia.
Others like Malta and Portugal proposed that Kosovo's future be decided at the UN Security Council.
Kosovo was a southern autonomous province within Serbia before the breakup of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The Albanian-dominated region was plunged into ethnic conflicts in 1990s. Kosovo has been under UN administration since mid-1999, after NATO air strikes drove Serbian forces out of the province.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-02/18/content_7624930.htm

[Edelweiss]

That is not true. As a Maoist I support national-determination. Kosovo independence is backed by EU imperialism, so it can't be a national liberation move, so I don't support it. It is the same for other fake national liberation movements, like Tibet.

But that's exactly the inconsistence and hypocrisy I'm talking about. Most national liberation movements are backed by some imperialist/hegemonic power. Weapons are not falling from heaven.

The difference is that the Kossovo national liberation movement is backed by the EU/US, and not by, let's say the USSR/Russia. But of course when the USSR did provide support for national liberation movements it was "internationalism", when the US/EU are doing it, it's imperialism, right buddy? :rolleyes:

[Cencus]

I used to work with about 50 or so Kosovan folks, quite a few had their horror stories. One lad, Arblind, if I remember right, went out early one morning to collect fire wood, when he was out Serb forces arrived, so he hid in the woods. From his vantage point he saw whole family slaughtered. There was no lie there, you could see in his eyes that he'd seen more than any young man should.

Why bring that up? When a government indiscriminately slaughters it's people or allows it's supporters to kill with no redress that government has lost it's right to rule that land.

[Saorsa]

I think all the people in this thread who are saying that we should oppose Kosovo's secession from Serbia because, A: The US/EU are backing it, and B: Because the leaders of the independence movement are not Marxist-Leninists and independence will not result in a break with capitalism, are missing the point.

Both of these are, to my mind, very weak arguments, reminiscent of the days when Maoists would back anyone opposing the USSR and it's supporters, from the Khmer Rouge to UNITA (I think that's what they were called) in Angola.

A good comparison is when Bangladesh moved to secede from Pakistan in 1971, Mao and the Chinese opposed this and backed the Pakistani govt in suppressing the mass uprisings in favour of independence. Why? Because they felt it was an attempt by India and the USSR to break up Pakistan, and because the Russians were involved they opposed it.

This quite simply failed to take into account the mass popular support independence enjoyed amongst the Bangladeshi masses, and the brutal oppression and exploitation they experienced at the hands of the Pakistani ruling class.

Because of these two factors (which I've put in bold), the liberation struggle in Bangladesh was just that, a struggle for national liberation and national self-determination, and was thus worthy of the support of all Communists, regardless of whether Soviet imperialism backed it.

Have we learned nothing from the mistakes of the past? The key factors are not that the secessionist movement in Kosovo is backed by US imperialism, they are not that the movement is a non-socialist one. The key factors are that the great majority of people in Kosovo, who happen to be primarily ethnically Albanian, want to be free from the brutal oppression and exploitation they have suffered at the hands of Serbia. There is mass popular support for seceding.

Not only that. The majority of people, from what I can gather, particularly the more proletarian elements of the people, are keen to integrate with Albania. Sure, Albania may be ruled by a bunch of bandits and thugs these days, but the fact remains that tens of thousands of Kosovans are marching in the streets under the Albanian flag. I remember reading an article on the Balkans written shortly before the wars broke out, and there was a picture of this massive column of cars driving through the countryside of Kosovo with a guy hanging out of just about every one of them waving an Albanian flag (with the yellow star, too). so while I may be wrong here, and from this distance it would be easy to be wrong about this, it seems to me that the people of Kosovo, or at the least a large section of them, identify with Albania and support the notion of merging with it.

We cannot oppose the desires of the people of Kosovo to be independent of Serbian control, just because they are supported in this by US imperialism and just because they are not lead by Communists.

If we do that, then we are not only hypocrites but we are showing a complete sense of contempt for the masses and their desires, when and where they do not co-incide with our own.

The facts are - the people of Kosovo want to be free from Serbian oppression. Kosovo and it's people constitute a nation (for a handy, very clear and concise definition of what constitutes a nation, see "Marxism and the National Question" by Josef Stalin. Even Trotskyists should admit what an excellent pamphlet that is.

Seeing as how the people of Kosovo desire this, who are we to deny them it? Sure, because Serbia is backed by Russia, the US and the EU are backing Kosovo, but that does not change the fact that the people of Kosovo do not want to be part of Serbia.

All the great Marxists, from Marx and Engels through Lenin to Mao and onwards, have supported the right of nations to "self-determination, up to and including full seperation". I see no reason for that to change, and so for all my concerns about Kosovo's independence (e.g. it's backing by US and EU imperialism, the dodgy character of it's leadership, the role of the UN, the fact that rather than immediately seeking to merge with Albania it is instead creating a new country), I support the right of the people of Kosovo to choose their own destiny, regardless of what people in Belgrade, Moscow, Washington, Brussells, or RevLeft think of the matter. It is up to the people of Kosovo to decide, they have decided, and thus I support them in this.

[Edelweiss]

Comrade Alastair, at least you are a bit consistent here with your stupid, bourgeois idea of "the right of national self-determination". You grant it to whomever is desiring it, without asking questions. Earlier someone said, national liberation is "not a fetish". But that's exactly what you are making it, a fetish replacing class struggle and any real Marxist outlook, which ultimately is to get rid of capitalism. I don't see how an independent Kossovo is any progress towards that goal here.

You say Albanians did suffer from "brutal oppression and exploitation". However, that is not the full truth. Kossovo was autonomous without any real Yugoslavian presence for quiet some time. Than western imperialists decided that to fully crush "socialist" Yugoslavia, destabilizing also Kossovo would be a key element. The UCK was supported by western intelligence, some massacres where quickly staged for the western media to alert westen liberals or "leftists" like you with a fetish for nationalism. well, they did succeed, and it's no surprise that also Yugoslavia did react for the CIA backed armed uprising within it's borders, and without question they also did commit terrible crimes. but no more ore less cruel than the UCK did. It's a shame for a supposed "leftist" to take sides with the UCK thugs only in the name of "national liberation".

I'm not a big friend of Tito, but his vision of a multi-ethnic socialist republic in an area where different ethnicities and workers did kill each other for centuries, is in any way more progressive than the mess we have now, with mono-ethnic states for whomever demands it. It's a shame that this backward development is even cheered by "leftists" like you, Alastair.

[Bandito]

Putin made a statement, and I completly agree with him

Hm!
He is just saying that because russian interests cannot get into Kosovo,and compomise their future involvement in Balkan.
Do you think he would be saying those things,about double-standards and shit,if Kosovo's oil company would be sold to LUKoil or Gasprom?? Russia sold its political involvement for Serbia. What they have got out of they latent rejection of Kosovo was serbian oil company,than will be "sold" for bargain.

Russia=USA

[Andy Bowden]

So what do people who oppose Kosovan independence think should happen?

There are only 3 options, Kosova becomes independent, Kosova remains ruled by effectively a UN dictatorship, or Kosova is returned to Serb control.

The two latter alternatives are not options as far as I can see it. Virtually all of the Kosova majority Albanian population have no desire to be ruled by a Serb Nationalist regime, which in the past repressed them (abolishing their autonomy for example) and being ruled by the UN forever is identically unfeasible.

The only option is to recognise that whether or not we think its a good idea or not, the majority of Kosovans support independence, and to stand against that is a nationalist position, and support for "unity" on the basis of forcing countries to stay together through bayonets.

[spartan]

Just thought that i would add that Spain opposses Kosovan independence, i wonder why?:rolleyes: (Basque county, Catalonia and Galicia anyone?).

[Edelweiss]

So what do people who oppose Kosovan independence think should happen?

There are only 3 options, Kosova becomes independent, Kosova remains ruled by effectively a UN dictatorship, or Kosova is returned to Serb control.

The two latter alternatives are not options as far as I can see it. Virtually all of the Kosova majority Albanian population have no desire to be ruled by a Serb Nationalist regime, which in the past repressed them (abolishing their autonomy for example) and being ruled by the UN forever is identically unfeasible.

The only option is to recognise that whether or not we think its a good idea or not, the majority of Kosovans support independence, and to stand against that is a nationalist position, and support for "unity" on the basis of forcing countries to stay together through bayonets.
The current status quo in Kossovo is a result of US/EU imperialist intervention, as I already explained. It should have never got so far. Kossovo didn't always used to be an "ethically clean" region. Beside Albanians, many other ethnicities did use to live there, including Serbs, Croatians or Gypsies. Many of them have been victim of expulsion by the Albanian nationalist mob after the NATO intervention. I didn't saw any excessive coverage on that on the mainstream media. The western imperialist powers did create a situation where is virtually no other choice than accepting an independent Kossovo,like you said.. But this exactly was their goal, and it's a shame that they did scucceed with it.

[Andy Bowden]

Its beyond doubt that there have been chauvinist attacks on Serbs, Jews and gypsies by Kosovan nationalists which have led to an exodus of much of these populations.

But the demand for independence for Kosova has existed long before the NATO intervention, or KLA victory. There was an overwhelming pro-independence result in an unofficial referendum held after Kosovas autonomy was abolished by Belgrade.

So while its true to say there has been ethnic cleansing against inhabitants of Kosova who would be unlikely to support independence, there was still overwhelming backing for it before any armed struggle or racist attacks.

This overwhelming backing exists because of the denial of the limited autonomy Kosova had due to its abolition by Serb nationalists.

[Bandito]

Kosovo was never 100&#37; serbian land.
Through the centuries Albanians,Serbs,Gypsies,Turks and various of nationalities existed and helped each other out.
After Albania joined the italian fascist regime in WW2,there become the idea of Great Albania,which includes not only Kosovo,but also a part of Montenegro,Macedonia and Greece.
Independent Kosovo is naturally a part of "Great Albania".
But the whole idea of independent Kosovo was not born under such ideal. Kosovo Albanians simply claimed their human rights and the whole thing didn't start in the '90's. It had started several decades before that,but under reactionary regime of Josib Broz Tito,that problem was simply pushed beneath the blanket.
In the '90's there was just a cumulation of unhappiness and revolt against the new,Slobodan Milosevic's regime.
So,Kosovo revolt itself has nothing to do with "great Albania". It was simply a humane response to opression by the Belgrade regime.
Early fractions of KLA were simply a revolt on nationalistic serbian politics pushed upon them. Their arming and early battles are nothing but a response,and even not a reactionary one.
Later,USA fuond out that there is something useful for them in Kosovo and intervened.
But that doesn't change the fact that people in Kosovo rebelled for the right reason.

[Saorsa]

Comrade Alastair, at least you are a bit consistent here with your stupid, bourgeois idea of "the right of national self-determination".

Thanks, I think...


You grant it to whomever is desiring it, without asking questions. Earlier someone said, national liberation is "not a fetish". But that's exactly what you are making it, a fetish replacing class struggle and any real Marxist outlook, which ultimately is to get rid of capitalism.

If the great majority of people within an oppressed nation (which even an ultra-left dogmatic type such as yourself should recognise Kosovo objectively is) desire to be free of their oppression and seek to secede, who am I (and who are you) to stop them?

There are times when I would oppose this. If the secession of a place like Kosovo would weaken the socialist state or left-wing regime it was seceding from, and if Kosovo was not objectively an oppressed nation, I would certainly be "asking questions". But the Belgrade regime is not a Communist one, Serbia is not a socialist country, and Kosovo has been the victim of increasingly brutal national oppression for a very long time, and in the absence of anything to defend about Serbia and in the light of the fact that the people of Kosovo want an end to their oppression by Serbia, it's a good example of the arrogance and contempt you ultra-left "communists" feel towards the masses that you seek to deny Kosovo it's right to national self-determination.

And the right to national self-determination in no way "replaces class struggle." If anything, it strengthens it, because now that the contradiction between Kosovo and Belgrade has been resolved, the people of Kosovo are able to move onto the class contradictions within Kosovo itself. It's not inevitable that they will, far from it, but at least it's the first order of the day now.

You've basically got a workerist attitude towards this issue, and it's typical of most ultra-left dogmatists. "Anything that isn't about workers vs bosses is reactionary! Those stupid Kosovans (or Kosovars, whatever it is), what cheek they have to suggest that they should secede from a regime that has been massacring them for years and oppressing them for decades! I know better than them how to make their revolution!". You're attitude is the height of arrogance.

And as for you're ridiculous claim that supporting national liberation struggles is somehow an "un Marxist outlook", I shall demolish that rubbish with a quote from... well, from Karl Marx himself! I would have thought that he would no best of all what the basics of a Marxist outlook are.

'I have become more and more convinced-and the thing now is to drum this conviction into the English [sic] working class-that they will never be
able to do anything decisive here in England before they separate their
attitude towards Ireland quite definitely from that of the ruling
classes, and not only make a common cause with the Irish, but even take
the initiative in dissolving the Union [...] and substituting a federal
relationship for it. And this must be done not out of sympathy for
Ireland, but as a demand based on the interests of the English
proletariat.' ['Marx to Ludwig Kugelmann' (29 November, 1869), MECW vol.43 (1988), 390.]


As you can see, Marx himself emphasises that only by supporting the national-liberation struggle in Ireland can the workers of England hope to advance their own class struggle. Thus, it is obvious that supporting national liberation movements does not "replace class struggle" at all, and it is YOU, with your ultra-leftist, arrogant bookworshipping attitudes who is out of line with a Marxist outlook.

throw in an excellent Lenin quote for good measure:

"The proletariat must struggle against the enforced retention of oppressed nations within the bounds of the given state, which means that they must fight for the right to self-determination. The proletariat must demand freedom of political separation for the colonies and nations oppressed by 'their own' nation. Otherwise, the internationalism of the proletariat would be nothing but empty words, neither confidence nor class solidarity would be possible between the workers of the oppressed and the oppressor nations... (Lenin: 'The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination.)



I don't see how an independent Kossovo is any progress towards that goal here.


Um, and a Kosovo forced against it's wishes to remain within a country that oppresses it is? Wow, you ultra-leftists really don't get enough of that reality stuff do you...


You say Albanians did suffer from "brutal oppression and exploitation". However, that is not the full truth. Kossovo was autonomous without any real Yugoslavian presence for quiet some time. Than western imperialists decided that to fully crush "socialist" Yugoslavia, destabilizing also Kossovo would be a key element. The UCK was supported by western intelligence, some massacres where quickly staged for the western media to alert westen liberals or "leftists" like you with a fetish for nationalism. well, they did succeed, and it's no surprise that also Yugoslavia did react for the CIA backed armed uprising within it's borders, and without question they also did commit terrible crimes. but no more ore less cruel than the UCK did. It's a shame for a supposed "leftist" to take sides with the UCK thugs only in the name of "national liberation".

The fact that the CIA backed the uprising is totally irrelevant. There was, espescially by that stage, nothing to defend about Yugoslavia, and so what we must analyse is whether or not Kosovo was oppressed. And as our Serbian comrade atheist has shown, that is a fact. Therefore the people of Kosovo had the right to rebel, they did so, and I support them in that. Do you oppose the Palestinian liberation struggle because it is backed by Syria and Iran? Do you oppose the Irish liberation struggle during WW1 because it was backed by the Germans?


I'm not a big friend of Tito, but his vision of a multi-ethnic socialist republic in an area where different ethnicities and workers did kill each other for centuries, is in any way more progressive than the mess we have now, with mono-ethnic states for whomever demands it.

In Tito's Yugoslavia after 1945, Kosovo (and the Vojvodina) received the status of independent provinces within the constituent republic of Serbia. At this time 790,000 people lived in Kosovo, 68 percent of whom were Albanian, and 24 percent Serbs. Aleksandar Rankovic's infamous secret police increasingly took control of Kosovo. On Rankovic's orders, around 200,000 Islamic Kosovo Albanians registered as "Turks” were resettled in Turkey from 1945-1966. In 1966 Tito removed him from office. In 1974, in the new Yugoslavian constitution, both independent provinces were given almost the same status as the 6 constituent republics. The right to become an independent state, however, was refused Kosovo and Vojvodina.

Tito wasn't directly responsible for any major oppression of Kosovo, but under his leadership it was quite obviously oppressed, and it was denied the right to full national self-determination. However, I do recognise that things only got really bad after his death.


It's a shame that this backward development is even cheered by "leftists" like you, Alastair.

Not at all. I applaud the fact that the people of Kosovo have, after great struggle and great suffering, achieved their goal of secession from Serbia. I oppose the imperialist intervention in this struggle, just like I oppose imperialist intervention everywhere and anywhere. But regardless of the presence of Western imperialism in this issue, the fact is that the people of Kosovo have achieved something they have desired and fought for for a very long time.

Lenin was right when he called "Left-wing communism" such as your own "an infantile disorder".

[YSR]

If the "international community", with its army and its colonial apparatus, does not leave Albanians, Serbs and Roma to decide their future for themselves, the war, or, in the least, "localized" violence (and internationally supervised) and another wave of ethnic cleansing of Serbs and Roma, will be inevitable. The only chance for peace in the Balkans is the end of the occupation of the Balkans.

(Grubacic is an anarchist activist and historian from the Balkans.)

Link (http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2007-12/10grubacic.cfm)

[Devrim]

And the right to national self-determination in no way "replaces class struggle." If anything, it strengthens it, because now that the contradiction between Kosovo and Belgrade has been resolved, the people of Kosovo are able to move onto the class contradictions within Kosovo itself. It's not inevitable that they will, far from it, but at least it's the first order of the day now.

That is one way to look at it. I would say though that the deceleration of independence by Pristina increase imperialist tensions in the region, and opens the road to new conflicts.


Therefore the people of Kosovo had the right to rebel, I am interested in neither 'the people' nor bourgeois rights.


Do you oppose the Palestinian liberation struggle because it is backed by Syria and Iran? Do you oppose the Irish liberation struggle during WW1 because it was backed by the Germans?

Absolutely.

By the way, Malte is not a left communist. I am.

Devrim

[Devrim]

So what do people who oppose Kosovan independence think should happen?

There are only 3 options, Kosova becomes independent, Kosova remains ruled by effectively a UN dictatorship, or Kosova is returned to Serb control.


I think that it is wrong to use the word 'oppose'. I think that 'not support' would be better. 'Oppose' implies that you are supporting one of the other two options that you outline.

The reality is that the working class is too weak to impose itself on the situation. All the communists can do is comment on it.

I think that there are three basic points.

1)National liberation today is impossible. I think that the US flags being waved in Pristina show the reality of the situation.

2)This could possible be a prelude to further nationalist conflict in the region.

3)The working class has no interest in supporting either side in these sort of conflicts.

Devrim

[Guerrilla22]

Here's a novel idea: have the all the outside actors back off and let the people of Kosovo decide on what they would like to do (as difficult as that might be to pull off.) At least it would be more legitimate that having their future determined by a party hacks sitting around a table in the UN security council.

[Red_or_Dead]

Hm!
He is just saying that because russian interests cannot get into Kosovo,and compomise their future involvement in Balkan.
Do you think he would be saying those things,about double-standards and shit,if Kosovo's oil company would be sold to LUKoil or Gasprom?? Russia sold its political involvement for Serbia. What they have got out of they latent rejection of Kosovo was serbian oil company,than will be "sold" for bargain.

Russia=USA


I agree, but it doesnt make the statement false. He was right, even tho hes no better himself.


Kosovo was never 100&#37; serbian land.
Through the centuries Albanians,Serbs,Gypsies,Turks and various of nationalities existed and helped each other out.
After Albania joined the italian fascist regime in WW2,there become the idea of Great Albania,which includes not only Kosovo,but also a part of Montenegro,Macedonia and Greece.
Independent Kosovo is naturally a part of "Great Albania".
But the whole idea of independent Kosovo was not born under such ideal. Kosovo Albanians simply claimed their human rights and the whole thing didn't start in the '90's. It had started several decades before that,but under reactionary regime of Josib Broz Tito,that problem was simply pushed beneath the blanket.
In the '90's there was just a cumulation of unhappiness and revolt against the new,Slobodan Milosevic's regime.
So,Kosovo revolt itself has nothing to do with "great Albania". It was simply a humane response to opression by the Belgrade regime.
Early fractions of KLA were simply a revolt on nationalistic serbian politics pushed upon them. Their arming and early battles are nothing but a response,and even not a reactionary one.
Later,USA fuond out that there is something useful for them in Kosovo and intervened.
But that doesn't change the fact that people in Kosovo rebelled for the right reason.


This "Great Albania" is something that I dont see as reality either. Idk, what is the situation in Albania anyway? Ive read an interwiev with Azem Vlasi a while ago, and he said that if there is to be unification, then Albania will join Kosovo, and not vice versa, because despite everything that was going on in Kosovo since the late 1980s, Kosovo is still more developed than Albania. Do you happen to know more on that?

[Bandito]

Kosovo is still more developed than Albania

What?
No,no,comrade.....you must be mistaken.
Albania has "better" standerd according to capitalistic views than Serbia without Kosovo!
And Kosovo,while it was a part of Yugoslavia,later Serbia was always the poorest region of all. I don't want to lie to you,but i think that the number was about 60&#37; or more unemployed people. People in Kosovo are very close to be called hungry in general.

[Bandito]

Kosovo has POTENTIALS to be the richest region in Balkan,when it comes to coal,oil, and other mining products.
But,take Congo for example. They could have been one of the riches countries in the world bcs of their diamonds and gold,but-SOMEONE ELSE IN EXPLIOTING IT.
Same with Kosovo.

[Saorsa]

I am interested in neither 'the people' nor bourgeois rights.

You're lack of concern for the people (aka the toiling masses, or the workers, peasants, otherwise oppressed people and progressives) is obvious. And saying over and over again that the right to national self-determination is "bourgeois" will not make it true.




Do you oppose the Palestinian liberation struggle because it is backed by Syria and Iran? Do you oppose the Irish liberation struggle during WW1 because it was backed by the Germans? Absolutely.


That's totally absurd. Care to provide some justification for that line? I'm sure the oppressed millions of Gaza and the West Bank are dying to hear why their struggle against Zionist oppression is "bourgeois".



By the way, Malte is not a left communist. I am.


It says he is on his wee profile bit.


1)National liberation today is impossible.

I'm sure that the Palestinians of Gaza, the Tamils of Sri Lanka and others will be eager to hear your explanation as to why their struggle for national liberation is "impossible".


I think that the US flags being waved in Pristina show the reality of the situation.

And the far more prevalent Albanian flags?


2)This could possible be a prelude to further nationalist conflict in the region.

A vague, and thoroughly bourgeois fear of "conflict". Conflict in the abstract, without any concern for who's fighting who and for what reasons, only terror of "conflict". If the Serbs attack Kosovo over it's secession (which I doubt they will do), we should back Kosovo in it's struggle against Serbian oppression.


3)The working class has no interest in supporting either side in these sort of conflicts.

As I've already pointed out (supplying evidence in the form of quotes, which you have yet to do), Marx and Engels believed something entirely different to that ridiculous statement. Will you "left communists" now renounce the two of them as "burgeois", along with Lenin? Who's gonna be left?!? :confused:

[Edelweiss]

It says he is on his wee profile bit.

Devrim doesn't me consider a left-communist, because I'm a bit less dogmatic on the question of national liberation than he is. I do advocate critical solidarity with certain national liberation movements, but in the end I totally agree with the left-communist analysis of national liberation and the concept of a right of self-determination as a deeply bourgeois concepts, which never will be any path to a classless society. The idea of national liberation, without any class context, has as much to do with communism as George W. Bush has.

I also do disagree with left-communists on various other issues such as anti-fascism, but certainly that's the communist current I do sympathize most with.


Marx and Engels believed something entirely different to that ridiculous statement

"The worker has no fatherland" - Engels and Marx in the communist Manifesto

[Saorsa]

My quote beats your quote. The Manifesto was written in the 1840s (1848 I believe, although I may well be wrong), whereas my quote is from correspondence of Marx's in 1869, a good 20 to 30 years later. By that time Marx had realised the excessive simplicity of what he had written in sections of the Manifesto, and his later writings revise much of that.

'I have become more and more convinced-and the thing now is to drum this conviction into the English [sic] working class-that they will never be
able to do anything decisive here in England before they separate their
attitude towards Ireland quite definitely from that of the ruling
classes, and not only make a common cause with the Irish, but even take
the initiative in dissolving the Union [...] and substituting a federal
relationship for it. And this must be done not out of sympathy for
Ireland, but as a demand based on the interests of the English
proletariat.' ['Marx to Ludwig Kugelmann' (29 November, 1869), MECW vol.43 (1988), 390.]

Marx is saying that supporting the national liberation struggle in Ireland is vital for the working class in England, if they desire freedom for themselves. National liberation is inextricably linked with class liberation.

[Edelweiss]

Well, I share Rosa Luxemburg's views on the national question. Her works where published much later. It's up to you if you want to consider her a Marxist, or not.

Looking at reality, national liberation struggles might sometimes meant a progress in class struggle, like in Cuba, but in the end it never brought anything close to a classless society. We won't get rid of capitalism through "national liberation". "National liberation" is the weapon of the enemy, you can hardly deny that the concept of the nation state is s bourgeois concept, and in some cases it does indeed succeed on a rather small level, but in the end for true workers emancipation, nation states and boundaries are a hindrance, and not a necessity.

[YKTMX]

If the Kosovans want a state they should have one.

The behaviour of both the West and Russia has nothing to do with democracy, self-determination or international law, but pure self-interest.

[Red_or_Dead]

What?
No,no,comrade.....you must be mistaken.
Albania has "better" standerd according to capitalistic views than Serbia without Kosovo!
And Kosovo,while it was a part of Yugoslavia,later Serbia was always the poorest region of all. I don't want to lie to you,but i think that the number was about 60% or more unemployed people. People in Kosovo are very close to be called hungry in general.

I guess Vlassi lied, then... And yeah, I watched a documentary yesterday, that even in the late 1980s Kosovo was in a really bad shape economicaly, and the aid for Kosovo (and other underdeveloped parts) was one of the arguments of our politicians for our seccesion.

It does seem strange tho, that Albania is more developed even than Serbia. The typicall stereoptype that we have of Albania is an almost medival country, and I was under the impression that Serbia was recovering very well since Milošević was deposed.

In any case, Great Albania doesnt seem an option, so at least thats something.



The behaviour of both the West and Russia has nothing to do with democracy, self-determination or international law, but pure self-interest.

Agreed. As I said before: Divide and conquer. Its what the Romans did 2000 years ago, and modern superpowers did the same with Yugoslavia. I just wonder how long will it take till all the parts of the former state will be colonized.

[Saorsa]

Well, I share Rosa Luxemburg's views on the national question. Her works where published much later. It's up to you if you want to consider her a Marxist, or not.

I consider her a communist, and a heroic martyr of our movement. But her views on national liberation were crap and out of line with Marxism, and her views on organisation were pretty awful too, they leaned towards anarchism.



Looking at reality, national liberation struggles might sometimes meant a progress in class struggle, like in Cuba, but in the end it never brought anything close to a classless society. We won't get rid of capitalism through "national liberation". "National liberation" is the weapon of the enemy, you can hardly deny that the concept of the nation state is s bourgeois concept, and in some cases it does indeed succeed on a rather small level, but in the end for true workers emancipation, nation states and boundaries are a hindrance, and not a necessity.


The key paraphrase in that paragraph is "in the end". Obviously a transition worldwide from advanced socialism to communism will require the elimination of national borders. But such a big thing as that can only be accomplished gradually and over time, so even once the whole world had raised the red flag over it's rooftops that would be a long way in the future. Until then, however, suppressing the desire of sections of the world's people to live in their own seperate nation-states would only cause grave problems for the construction of socialism and the transition to communism.

And perhaps you should consider the fact that not every issue communists take up has to be directly related to the class struggle. Would you really suggest that we should take a neutral position on gay rights because it doesn't directly advance the struggle for a workers state?

[metalero]

Comrade Alastair, at least you are a bit consistent here with your stupid, bourgeois idea of "the right of national self-determination". You grant it to whomever is desiring it, without asking questions. Earlier someone said, national liberation is "not a fetish". But that's exactly what you are making it, a fetish replacing class struggle and any real Marxist outlook, which ultimately is to get rid of capitalism. I don't see how an independent Kossovo is any progress towards that goal here.

You say Albanians did suffer from "brutal oppression and exploitation". However, that is not the full truth. Kossovo was autonomous without any real Yugoslavian presence for quiet some time. Than western imperialists decided that to fully crush "socialist" Yugoslavia, destabilizing also Kossovo would be a key element. The UCK was supported by western intelligence, some massacres where quickly staged for the western media to alert westen liberals or "leftists" like you with a fetish for nationalism. well, they did succeed, and it's no surprise that also Yugoslavia did react for the CIA backed armed uprising within it's borders, and without question they also did commit terrible crimes. but no more ore less cruel than the UCK did. It's a shame for a supposed "leftist" to take sides with the UCK thugs only in the name of "national liberation".

I'm not a big friend of Tito, but his vision of a multi-ethnic socialist republic in an area where different ethnicities and workers did kill each other for centuries, is in any way more progressive than the mess we have now, with mono-ethnic states for whomever demands it. It's a shame that this backward development is even cheered by "leftists" like you, Alastair.

Totally agreed.

[Red_or_Dead]

Comrade Alastair, at least you are a bit consistent here with your stupid, bourgeois idea of "the right of national self-determination". You grant it to whomever is desiring it, without asking questions. Earlier someone said, national liberation is "not a fetish". But that's exactly what you are making it, a fetish replacing class struggle and any real Marxist outlook, which ultimately is to get rid of capitalism. I don't see how an independent Kossovo is any progress towards that goal here.

You say Albanians did suffer from "brutal oppression and exploitation". However, that is not the full truth. Kossovo was autonomous without any real Yugoslavian presence for quiet some time. Than western imperialists decided that to fully crush "socialist" Yugoslavia, destabilizing also Kossovo would be a key element. The UCK was supported by western intelligence, some massacres where quickly staged for the western media to alert westen liberals or "leftists" like you with a fetish for nationalism. well, they did succeed, and it's no surprise that also Yugoslavia did react for the CIA backed armed uprising within it's borders, and without question they also did commit terrible crimes. but no more ore less cruel than the UCK did. It's a shame for a supposed "leftist" to take sides with the UCK thugs only in the name of "national liberation".

I'm not a big friend of Tito, but his vision of a multi-ethnic socialist republic in an area where different ethnicities and workers did kill each other for centuries, is in any way more progressive than the mess we have now, with mono-ethnic states for whomever demands it. It's a shame that this backward development is even cheered by "leftists" like you, Alastair.


Um... No. Yugoslavia was not Titos idea. It existed as a monarchy between both world wars. His vision was of a socialist country, no doubt about that, but the country itself existed before he came to power. He did not bring us together, he kept us together, and there is a difference. Not to mention a few other things. For example, the Yugoslavian nationalism. One idea that also existed before WW2, but really took off in Titos Yugoslavia. The idea was to simply replace Slovenian, Serbian, Croatian ect. nationalisms and put in place the Yugoslav nationalism. Of course, done under the cover of "brotherhood and unity" and within the framework of socialism, but essentialy just the same shit in a different package. Of course, it would be better to have a Yugoslav nation than having a whole bunch of small nations that are at war at almost any given time, but it is still nationalism, and that is inherently bad. Also, national self-determination was used in the WW2, as a mean to fight the Axis. So, there is no doubt that Tito was a great man, a man who liberated us, and made us into a socialist society (even tho it didnt last very long), but his way of solving the national problem in Yugoslavia was ultimatly a failure.

In any case this is just replying to the last paragraph. I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

[EwokUtopia]

Where is Zombie Tito when you need him?

If Kosovo becomes independant, pretty soon you'll see Herzegovina doing the same. Who knows, we might even have the Serbs and the Bosniaks at it again.

You'll also notice than any country with seperatist movements is not supporting this, because they fear it will set a precident for seperatists to do the same as the Kosovars.

[Bandito]

If Kosovo becomes independant, pretty soon you'll see Herzegovina doing the same. Who knows, we might even have the Serbs and the Bosniaks at it again.

Right.
Serbian province in Bosnia and Herzegovina is very shy about the matter. They are between sides now-"brotherhood" of Serbs and maybe a precident that would divide Bosnia again,putting Republic of Srpska in a unity with Serbia.
The only revolutionary party in Serbia,Party of Labour(Partija Rada) had an statement while the bosnian conflict was being initiated-"Bosnia cannot be divided,because you mustn't divide it!". If Kosovo case becomes a precident,the question of serbian and croatian part of it will be opened and disscussed again.

[Bandito]

Where is Zombie Tito when you need him?

Exactly where revisionist like him should be.

[The Author]

I must say that the right to secede must not be understood as an obligation, as a duty to secede. A nation may take advantage of this right and secede, but it may also forgo the right, and if it does not wish to exercise it, that is its business and we cannot but reckon with the fact. Some comrades turn this right to secede into an obligation and demand from the Croats, for instance, that they secede whatever happens. That position is wrong and must be rejected. We must not confuse a right with an obligation.

-- J.V. Stalin, Concerning the National Question in Yugoslavia
What was bombastically proclaimed as <<the liberation of Albanian territories from the Serbian yoke>>, the formation of <<Greater Albania>>, had been <<realized>> under the jackboot of fascism and in the interests of fascism. It cannot be concealed that this demagogy confused many people in Kosova and also deceived some in Albania who called themselves nationalists.

Naturally, we were not going to be and were not taken in by this trick of fascism, therefore, we told the people clearly and precisely: We must not be deceived by the <<liberation>> and propaganda of this occupier which poses as a <<liberator>>(!), but which in fact has enslaved the whole of Albania. We can never expect nazi-fascism, the most ferocious enemy of the freedom and independence of the peoples, to solve our problems, big or small, can never expect any benefits from fascism which has placed us in the most hideous bondage, which is maiming and killing the finest sons and daughters of the people, the plague which has set itself the aim of destroying mankind. Irreconcilable struggle against it, everywhere, at every moment -- this is our immediate duty.

...

At the same time, through this <<unification>> by military force, fascism and nazism left all the paths open for the old squabbles and feuds between the neighbouring peoples of the Balkans to continue at all times. This came about not only because of the fact that this <<unification>> was piecemeal, arbitrary and with plenty of hotbeds deliberately left for future quarrels and clashes, but also because of the other fact that this <<unification>> under the auspices of fascism had no basis or guarantee for the future whatsoever. It could very easily be altered in any way that interested the fascist occupiers and according to the situations that presented themselves. Under fascist occupation, the borders between states and countries had absolutely no value or meaning -- all were under terror, the bloodbath of the Hitlerite and Mussolini empires threatened all.

Many other factors and causes could be listed to explain what was that <<unification>> which the nazi-fascists carried out in Albania in 1941 and this, in the context of the history of that time, remains one of the tasks of our historians. I mentioned a few of them merely to emphasize why we Albanian communists never fell for the unrestrained propaganda which was put out at that period about this painful problem of our history.

In the Party and among the people we said openly that our national question as a whole, hence that of Kosova and the other Albanian territories attached to old Yugoslavia, too, could never be solved by nazi-fascism. It could never be expected that those hordes, which had invaded and were burning and devastating the whole of Albania, would <<liberate>> and <<recognize>> a part of it.

Don't be deceived by the demagogic manoeuvres of the members of traitor governments and the chiefs of the Balli Kombëtar, either, who scream and shout about <<greater Albania>> and about <<ethnic Albania>>, we told the people. Those who at all times have been ready to put the whole of Albania up for auction to the highest bidder, can never be defenders of the Albanian cause. Their <<patriotism>> is a fraud. Those who are going to solve the problems of our country and our nation are not and can never be the servants of fascists.

We issued calls to the people: <<Only unrelenting war against the fascists and their collaborators will lead to the solution of our national problem, an integral part of which is the putting right of historical injustices. For this,>> we told them, <<our Communist Party is fighting and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, likewise, is leading the peoples of its own country on this same course.>>

The people understood us and without hesitation threw themselves into the decisive struggle with confidence in the course on which we were leading them.

In regard to the population of Kosova and the other Albanian regions in Yugoslavia, however, the problem presented greater difficulties. Suddenly the people there found themselves faced with the <<solution>> of their most cardinal problem: the Serbian yoke was thrown off, they were united with the trunk from which they had been cut, an administration staffed by Albanians was set up, people came and went from Tirana to Prishtina and vice-versa, Albanian schools were opened, Albanian books and newspapers were published, etc., etc. This was a kind of <<liberation>>, except that it was <<liberation>> from an old yoke and falling under a new yoke -- that of fascism.

Precisely in these conditions the problem that presented itself here was the mobilization of the Albanian population of these zones in the fight against an occupier which presented itself to this population as a <<liberator>>. Only another, much more powerful, very advanced, reliable and hopeful alternative would make the people of Kosova rise in struggle against the <<liberator>> occupier immediately and with alI their might.
Only our communist parties could ensure this alternative.

--Enver Hoxha, The Titoites

Essentially, what you see here in Kosovo today with this so-called "independence" on the part of US imperialism is the same type of action the Italian and German fascists performed in the same regions six and a half decades ago. The way the fascist "liberators" presented themselves as the bringers of modern-day living and "social welfare" is the same type of trick the European and American imperialists are using to dupe the Kosovar working-class.

[redarmyfaction38]

:scared:
every nation has the right to self determination.

[ComradeR]

All Kosovo independence has done is to insure that it shall remain an underdeveloped backwater and gains the "wonderful" new status as a neo-colony. Ethnic and nationalist tensions are only going to increase and Imperialism has been strengthened. The bottom line is that this is a blow to the working class of the Balkans and a victory for the imperialists.
It will be interesting to see what effect this will have on places like Taiwan.

[RNK]

However, we can not deny the fact that self-determination for ethnic groups is of high importance. Would you be against a Native American independance movement?

In the long run, we shouldn't be cheering for the creation of yet another bourgeois-controlled state. But we can not deny ethnic groups the right to self-determination. It's not like Serbia is socialist.

[Bandito]

The "fun" thing is that Serbia doesn't know what to do with Kosovo.
In imagianary case that Kosovo returns in full status of Serbia,you would have 2.5 million people who hate the country. They would also have a right to vote and would be a significant party or even a majority in parliament. So,interest of all serbian politicians actually is independent Kosovo,but they are just spreading dangerous demagogy about serbian "Cradle of faith","Heart of the nation","Fatherland" et cetera.

I can uderstand when someone is against independent Kosovo,because of its imperialst character,but i definately can't understand someone that is for keeping Kosovo under jurisdiction of Serbia.
Or status quo. What do these solutions have to do with the opressed masses in Kosovo??

[THKO]

if they do something like that live was hard in Serbia so they want their own country. also they has that benefit. if they live in happiness in Serbia they don't want their own country and if they want something like that Serbia's political way is wrong. Serbia goverment have to make happy all citizens who live in Serbia

[Gitfiddle Jim]

Seeing as though Kosovar people are ethnic Albanians, wouldn't it seem more reasonable to see Kosovo become part of Albania?

[dickson14]

I think we can all say that multiculturalism is a failure.

That said, I think all nations should be independant under socialism because of exploitation (Palestinians by the Jews, Basques by the Spanish, Chechnyans by the Russians, Irish by the British, and the now Albanians by the Serbs). It saddens me to see Kosovo. Both positions are for Bush's and Putin's self interests. The Kosovoians are screwed no matter what happens; one scenario with the Serbs killing them, the other with them being opressed by large, capitalist multinational corporations.

The workers of all nations should unite and destroy their capitalist oppressor!

[Holden Caulfield]

I think we can all say that multiculturalism is a failure.



well if this is your opinion then you are not marxist, as the final stage would be multi-cultural by it essance that nations and artificail borders would be dissolved, also you have a picture of Lenin who was at the head of one of the largest multi-cultural states in exsistance,

this opinion is a stones throw away from rascism, why would multiculturalism fail? are people not all the same and any divisions artifical and/or superficial> do you not think that everybody is equal and the same?

and i think if you keep this ignorant view it you will soon find yourself restricted or banned,

[Bandito]

I hope he didn't mean what he said.

[Lisa]

Seems some people have forgotten about international law which definitely makes stealing all that Serbian land a crime of the highest order by colonialists.

Split from Serbia, it would be nothing more than a nato colony.

They are planning on an ethnically pure Kosovo as it is, free from all others but albanians.

[mykittyhasaboner]

I think we can all say that multiculturalism is a failure.
wtf are you doing here then?

[Bandito]

Seems some people have forgotten about international law which definitely makes stealing all that Serbian land a crime of the highest order by colonialists.

Split from Serbia, it would be nothing more than a nato colony.

They are planning on an ethnically pure Kosovo as it is, free from all others but albanians.

__________________


Wow...you sound like Vojislav Kostunica himself.

[Pawn Power]

The Real Story Behind Kosovo's Independence

http://www.counterpunch.org/scahill02232008.html

[Red_Mackem]

When you look at who is backing Kosova's Independance, the USA, UK, EU all imperialist countries ready to take Kosovo under there wings and when ready exploit her.

To me it's not about ethnic freedom for the Majority Albainans but exploitation by the Imperalist Power.

[Cencus]

Seems some people have forgotten about international law

What International law? The only International Law I've ever seen in evidence is the one that says "I've got more guns/nukes/money that XX so I can do what the hell I want, and then my buddies will dress it up in some pseudo legal hogwash."


To me it's not about ethnic freedom for the Majority Albainans but exploitation by the Imperalist Power.

Bet the Kosavar population doesn't see it that way, there should have been a national referendum or something, but what else could have been done? Give Kosovo back to Serbia? Their track record on dealing with minorities doesn't make that a realistic prospect unless you want to go back to civil war.


They are planning on an ethnically pure Kosovo as it is, free from all others but albanians.

You have evidence of this? There's plenty of hatred on the ground between all communities. In my opinion ideally there would be some sort of non allied peacekeeping/peacemaking mission on the ground until the hate disapates, but until the hate is gone, the memories of bloodshed on both sides are gone there is no real hope of a peacefull future for Kosovo.

[Vanguard1917]

Kosovo has not been made 'independent'. Contrary to all the hype, 'supervised independence' is a contradiction in terms. The 'sovereignty' and 'self-determination' promoted by the West is devoid of any real substance. In reality, Kosovo has merely submitted itself to Western rule - that of UN officials, NATO troops and EU bureaucrats.

Two very good articles on this:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4515/
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4563/

[mrki]

Split from Serbia, it would be nothing more than a nato colony.


All Balkan countries - including Serbia - are, in fact, the colonies of NATO... Serbian bourgeois regime's attitude towards Kosovo is not the part of the solution but the part of the problem.
Recognition of the right of all Balkan peoples for national freedom, and creation of the united Balkan anti-imperialist resistance front is the real task for all revolutionaries from the region...