Question about the Revolution.

[EwokUtopia]

Firstly, Im not sure if this is the right place for this thread, so move it if it is out of place.


Basically my question is quite simple. I have noticed alot of rhetoric about "the" revolution around here, and what I have noticed is that alot of people on this forum see it as this imminent monolithic event that will overturn capitalism within our lifetimes. My question is how? How can a system that took centuries to develop, and is still developing, be overturned so quickly?

The most likely answer I will get is somthing along the lines of "mass actions from the workers will render capitalism powerless", but then there is another question that rises. This is the question of mass media. Here we have many different conglomerates owned by similar people who not only push dominant ideals onto the workers, but also take their minds away from the shitty situation they live in. Take a sitcom for instance. When most people watch them, they are being taken away, at least partially, from their own lives, and put into lives sympathetic with the fictional characters. Ontop of that, the majority of Television programmes make the current status quo not only seem right, but seem to be the natural order of things. You wont find many TV shows (in North America at least) which openly attack the status quo. This is a system that touts Liberals as being Left-Wing Fanatics. Whats worse is that it has mass support, something which we do not have. How do we beat this?



My own personal theory is that Capitalism (which is in a different state than when Marx wrote on it) will fall when technology makes it obsolete. Marx did say that it was a necessary state of human development, and the only thing that changes the state of humans politically is the technological state of the world they live in. For instance, the peasants of the Ancient world could never dream of a revolution followed by an equal state because they had no ability to read, and even if they did, they would have nothing to read. Without ranting much more, Ill just say that technology brought Capitalism into place, and technological developments will make it obsolete. When that happens, we will have a widespread political revolution.



*Note. I think that in the late 19th and Early 20th centuries, the idea of a revolution was well underway. It could have easily happened if it werent for the widespread use of Mass Media, which justified Capitalism, and more frighteningly, Fascism.



Any clarification as to how the revolution is imminent would be appreciated.

[Tatarin]

True, technology does make progress and will help with work in every case, but the question is what society that will be - i.e., will it be capitalist, or would we have reached socialism by then?

I see a "bad" side to technology, or rather the use of it, like the example I've brought up concerning robots. For now and the foreseeable future, they can be made to serve. But sooner or later, in a capitalist system, will not that technology also develop into weapons used to protect the ruling class from the working class?

In other words, while I agree that technology helps, I believe that sooner or later technology will be used by the ruling class to target everyone not agreeing with them, that is, a sort of time line. Imagine if you could replace every police with some sort of robocop that has no concern of what it is shooting at... :(

[mikelepore]

You asked how the system can be "overturned so quickly", but then you mentioned how "mass media ... push dominant ideals onto the workers." I think the answer is implied by that problem itself. It might take hundreds of additional years to persuade the people to adopt a new system, but, if an effective means of persuasion can be discovered, and that is done, then the people can adopt a new system in a single day. The whole problem is the willingness, and not the mechanics. As for seeing it "within our lifetimes", I don't think there's much chance. So far the peak of the working class's openmindedness about socialism was around the year 1900. I don't see any indications today of an opening starting to appear. I refer here only to the U.S., as I'm too ignorant about the worldwide situation.

[jake williams]

To address the idea of "the" revolution - I think there is a general standing in this community that capitalism is maybe the most important part of a system that is committing atrocities, well really everywhere, and this is unacceptable, and certainly should be overthrown. Moreover it is in opposition to the masses almost everywhere, though one could argue much of the American and Western working classes have been largely bribed and sated. The reason there is an assumption that there would be some sort of Revolution is, I think, because of the self-evident horror and unacceptability of the current system, and how powerful its victims could be with what is really fairly little education, and that if this task is accomplished, this system could be overthrown on quite a wide scale, even a worldwide scale.

[Ell Carino]

There won't be "the revolution" for a very long time, way too idealistic at the moment, there is not enough education and power in the hands of communists, not enough support. Especially in countries like Great Britain and America where anyone can craft themselves a good life for themselves. I can totally understand some person being perfectly happy that they've grown up in a rough estate in Manchester/or a similar situation in America, that end up getting a decent job because they've worked hard, and getting a nice house and a nice car - no one has the right to take that away from them. I don't like the pessimism of Marxism, it makes it sound like the world is an evil place, this is a perspective, and frankly it's way too depressing for me to live by. It's a nice idea theoretically, but I find the whole "One Nation World" idea to be naive. There's no way I would want that, I am proud to be English, I thank my country for everything it has done for me. Seriously, do people really want a one nation world?!

[Holden Caulfield]

My question is how? How can a system that took centuries to develop, and is still developing, be overturned so quickly?


you are assuming that capitalism is developing, i think that it is stagnating, in the Uk our standards of living are going down and we are past the apex of capitalist development and therefore it is natural that socialism will emerge as a major force, be it through the parliment or otherwise,

im not saying that in our strong western nations (UK, USA) the revolution will defintly be in our lifetime, but in many other counties, even in some european nations i do believe that we will see change in our times,

[Demogorgon]

A lot of people here seem to think that one day they will get to have lots of fun killing people they don't like, spraying graffiti onto various things and maybe smashing some stuff or even fighting a glorious (but good fun) "war" of sorts where there shall be much cammaderie and heroism and the next day everything will be wonderful and there will be a fully formed Communist (or more often anarchist) society just springing up.

That's a load of crap. Revolutions are long lasting affairs that can potentially go on for many years and manifest themselves in many different ways.

[Don't Change Your Name]

I don't like the pessimism of Marxism, it makes it sound like the world is an evil place, this is a perspective, and frankly it's way too depressing for me to live by.

Marxism is not any more "pessimist" than the standard apologetics for capitalism of the "people is evil and selfish and it's human nature and blah blah blah and there's nothing you can do blah blah blah".


It's a nice idea theoretically, but I find the whole "One Nation World" idea to be naive. There's no way I would want that, I am proud to be English, I thank my country for everything it has done for me. Seriously, do people really want a one nation world?!

The "One Nation World" (whatever that is) won't be a huge country named Earth ruled by an almighty government. Instead, it will probably be something "federalist".

And you country might have "done" "a lot" for "you", but that hasn't always been the case, especially when it comes to the rest of the world.

[dksu]

"Ill just say that technology brought Capitalism into place, and technological developments will make it obsolete. When that happens, we will have a widespread political revolution."

Maybe it's already obsolete, and technology might be utilized for the fulfillment of human need and pushed forward/advanced more readily in the hands of the working class, rather than being subordinate to the extraction of surplus ;o.

[EwokUtopia]

You asked how the system can be "overturned so quickly", but then you mentioned how "mass media ... push dominant ideals onto the workers." I think the answer is implied by that problem itself.


Sounds good....How many Television Stations or massively distributed papers do you have the ability to saturate with Oppositional Ideals? If you dont have any, think you could buy some so we can get started?

The point is that we dont and cant control mass media, the best we can do is try to discredit it, but that is for the most part a hard and ultimately futile path to tread (people are quite thick-headed). To control Mass Media is to have capital. The point of us talking about revolution is that we do not possess capital. Even if you win the lottery, the very best you cold do is some obscure satellites channel.

And before you mention it, I know that the internet trumps mass media, and that is where I place all my hope, but the bitter fact is that the majority of people use the internet for self-indulgent purposes. Compare Political sites to Porn sites and you see what I mean. Hell, even Stormfront has us outnumbered on the net (Thank god not IRL).

How do we smack complaicent people in the face and give them the desire to go beyond what mass media has made them think natural?

[Sam_b]

Revolutions are long lasting affairs that can potentially go on for many years and manifest themselves in many different ways.

I agree. But still, we can never discount armed worker's uprising.

[Colonello Buendia]

I don't think I will take part in the main revolution, but by making left-wing music, art, literature etc. the people are rebelling, they are gradually preparing the revolution. I think all we can really realistically do is prepare for the time in which the worker takes up arms and the capitalist era comes to a spectacular end. this will most likely not happen in my lifetime though. just remember, the revolution has begun in a way because we are here talking about it and that comrades have died to lay the foundations:star::che::hammersickle::trotski:

[Robespierre2.0]

Wow, you all seem really pessimist about this. Now, I don't expect us to have full-fledged communism within our lifetimes, but consider the following:

1. The United States, the most ardently anti-communist imperialist nation, is in decline. Of course, another imperialist power, most likely India or China, will probably take our place, and there's no saying whether they will be more or less vicious in their persecution of communists. Odds are Socialist movements Latin/South America will experience a reprieve from imperialist intervention when this happens.
2. Yes, the Internet, as of now, is for porn. However, it gives the masses the means to communicate with each other from miles away for little cost, and therefore will be an important tool of the proletariat in the next century. It's still in its infancy, though. Give it another decade or so to spread out and mature.

Honestly, though, I'm kinda anxious about the future. I expect, as the US begins to lose control, the government will become even more repressive- with us being the first ones rubbed out. Either that, or we'll experience complete anarchy (no, not that kind- the survivalist wet-dream type of anarchy).

[Schrödinger's Cat]

A lot of people here seem to think that one day they will get to have lots of fun killing people they don't like, spraying graffiti onto various things and maybe smashing some stuff or even fighting a glorious (but good fun) "war" of sorts where there shall be much cammaderie and heroism and the next day everything will be wonderful and there will be a fully formed Communist (or more often anarchist) society just springing up.

That's a load of crap. Revolutions are long lasting affairs that can potentially go on for many years and manifest themselves in many different ways.

I think most users who espouse such misguided idealism are rebuked on RevLeft.

[benpuk]

How do we smack complaicent people in the face and give them the desire to go beyond what mass media has made them think natural?

This is, potentially, the biggest problem for socialism in the UK today.
Most people just don't know or care about any kind of politics, left or otherwise, because for most people, life is good enough. They don't see the need to go out of their way to take notice of wider issues, and it's hard to convince them that it's there.

Of course, I wish I could end this post with even the most vague description of a solution, but beyond continued advocacy, I don't even know where to begin.

[EwokUtopia]

I agree. But still, we can never discount armed worker's uprising.

It happen in any developed nation with mass media. These systems of control are far too effective. Unfortunately the only revolution we could expect to see in these countries is the kind we really do not want: a fascist revolution, likely under a religious vainer.

Even in countries facing more oppression, people often follow leaders with psuedo-revolutionary rhetoric laden with extremely reactionary ideals (unfortunately, Hamas is far more popular than the PFLP). People living in the most severe poverty, such as in Africa, are being fed ethnic hatred in place of Pan-African solidarity. Only in Latin America are we seeing actual revolutionary progress, and we have to be on guard for that, I think we all remember 9/11/73.

Besides, Armed workers uprisings have prooven to be quite ineffective against modern militaries. You cant fight off tanks with guns, and even RPG's are practically useless. Then (given the Palestinian example), if it is too sucessful, there is the frightening possibility that radicalized Israeli militarymen may feel a little Masada-esque when they realize all the nuclear weapons they have.

We have tried armed uprisings, they have failed or become corrupt and authoritarian upon success. You can not kill a person without killing a bit of your humanity.