HOW STRUGGlING THE WORKER COMMUNIST PARTY OF IRAQ?

[revoutionarysocialist]

HOW STRUGGlING THE WORKER COMMUNIST PARTY OF IRAQ?
The worker Communist Party of iraq has struggled since it was founded (1993) to destroy the labour class and its socialist revolutioneries in Iraq, to neglect all comrades from revolution and distract them by spreading free relationships which serves the interests of bourgeois and the party's leadership which has always intended to distort marxism (review Lennin regarding free love).The party's struggling method depends on gathering a number of people, taking pictures of them, sending the pictures abroad in order to earn money while the organizations and unions which support them do not detain them upon these attitudes. What a mess !!!
What is also anarchious is for Yanar Mohammed, member of the active staff of the party which is the highest staff, to win a reward of appreciation for her organization's activities during her last trip !! Yanar's organization (Organization of Woman's liberty in Iraq) does not exist among women's tragedic situation in Iraq for it has one single center in Baghdad where only four women work.
What has this organization offered for women???
Only the theivery attitude of the party has gave Yanal an opportunity to win this award through organizing a celebration attended by 30 personalities of which most are men, offering dinner for them, photographing them and then considering such an even as a great effort made by the organization in Iraq ???!!!
I dare any person to prove otherwise.
As comrade Mao Tsi Tong says "We should always and continually sweep opportunism exactly as we sweep dust

[Red October]

What's wrong with free love?

[Great Helmsman]

Thanks for the update revolutionary socialist. What a sad state of affairs. I already suspected that the Iraqi communist party was led by opportunists and revisionists, especially when they oppose violent resistance and a united front against the imperialist occupiers. It doesn't surprise me that they would end up promoting bourgeois lifestyle lines when they have such a muddled line on revolution.

[BobKKKindle$]

It doesn't surprise me that they would end up promoting bourgeois lifestyle lines when they have such a muddled line on revolution.


How is "free love" part of a 'bourgeois lifestyle'? Although I don't think encouraging sexual liberation is an objective of greater importance than struggiling against the occupation, it is still an important part of the socialist project, and something which socialists have always supported - "free love" breaks down the restrictions that are placed on women by the prevailing morality, and so allows them to express themselves and celebrate their sexual desires without fear of social condemnation - sex is such an important part of the human experience that we can't afford to brush this issue aside.

[bootleg42]

How is "free love" part of a 'bourgeois lifestyle'? Although I don't think encouraging sexual liberation is an objective of greater importance than struggiling against the occupation, it is still an important part of the socialist project, and something which socialists have always supported - "free love" breaks down the restrictions that are placed on women by the prevailing morality, and so allows them to express themselves and celebrate their sexual desires without fear of social condemnation - sex is such an important part of the human experience that we can't afford to brush this issue aside.

Well said.

[Great Helmsman]

How is "free love" part of a 'bourgeois lifestyle'? Although I don't think encouraging sexual liberation is an objective of greater importance than struggiling against the occupation, it is still an important part of the socialist project, and something which socialists have always supported - "free love" breaks down the restrictions that are placed on women by the prevailing morality, and so allows them to express themselves and celebrate their sexual desires without fear of social condemnation - sex is such an important part of the human experience that we can't afford to brush this issue aside.
Where in the world do you see "free love" except decadent America and Europe? Raunch culture is not sexual liberation, and it's not progressive at all. Sexual objectification (yeah that's free love under capitalism) is the oppression of women, and it is not a goal of communism.

[black magick hustla]

Where in the world do you see "free love" except decadent America and Europe? Raunch culture is not sexual liberation, and it's not progressive at all. Sexual objectification (yeah that's free love under capitalism) is the oppression of women, and it is not a goal of communism.

you should have a beer

[Marsella]

Where in the world do you see "free love" except decadent America and Europe?

'decadent America and Europe' :laugh:

But even if that was true, that only serves to prove that the most progressive ideals regarding sex occur in the most 'economically advanced' places.


Raunch culture is not sexual liberation, and it's not progressive at all.I love these words you're throwing about. 'Decadent America', 'raunch culture'...what next 'un-Christian behaviour?'

:laugh:

But you are wrong. Deciding whom you can fuck, who, what, when, where, how, is at the peak of sexual liberation.

Call it 'raunch' culture but its actually sexual freedom.

Regarding Lenin's view: http://rs2kpapers.awardspace.com/theory27b2.html?subaction=showfull&id=1140167502&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&

[Red October]

you should have a beer

or get laid

"free love" just means you can do what you want with any consenting partner you want, so how is that bad? Should we condemn it because it's common in the first world instead of, say, arranged marriages or strict sexual moralism?

[BobKKKindle$]

"free love" just means you can do what you want with any consenting partner you want, so how is that bad? Should we condemn it because it's common in the first world instead of, say, arranged marriages or strict sexual moralism?

Exactly - if we consider "free love" as the acceptance any form of sexual activity to which both partners consent, then the struggle against homophobia is an issue which falls within the broad "theme" of "free love" as traditional morality regards homosexuality as a sin, even when both partners consent, despite the fact that homosexuality has been a consistent feature of all human societies and also exists in other species. No decent socialist would argue that homophobia is not an important form of social oppression.

It is perhaps true that "free love" is most prevalent in the first world - but that does not make is bad or "decadent" by default. However, it does not surprise me that GH has assumed this position, as Maoists are infamous for arguing that homosexuality is a product of capitalism and is therefore reactionary. "Sodomy" was only decriminalized in China in 1997 - so much for the "progressive" Chinese revolution...


Raunch culture is not sexual liberation, and it's not progressive at all. Sexual objectification (yeah that's free love under capitalism) is the oppression of women, and it is not a goal of communism.

What exactly do you mean by "raunch culture"? Did you ever consider than young women might actually want to be promiscuous, simply because they enjoy having sex? Sex is one of the most pleasurable and exciting activities for any human being - and is also widely considered a great way to bring two people in a relationship closer together - and so I see no reason to stop people from having sex through the imposition of outdated and crude moral ideas. "Free love" as a movement, and a challenge to traditional conceptions of sexual morality, is therefore progressive, in that it allows women (and anyone else who has suffered sexual repression) the freedom to act upon their desires.

And what is communism, if not the expansion of freedom in every sphere of life?

[BobKKKindle$]

Now, as for Lenin's thoughts on the subject, he made many comments which showed a dislike for the prevalence of ideas concerning "free love" amongst the Russian youth and in socialist discussion groups in other countries. He took a reactionary position - he argued that "free love" was in conflict with the needs of the revolution, whereas I feel that "free love" is an indispensable part of any socialist revolution, such is the importance of sex in our lives.

If we want to take a progressive line on the question of sexual morality, we should turn to the Anarchists for inspiration:

Emma Goldman - Marriage and Love (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/marriageandlove.html)

Interestingly, despite Lenin's views, the October Revolution resulted in the decriminalization of homosexuality, and allowed divorce on the request of one partner. However, following Stalin's seizure of power, and the subsequent degeneration of the revolution, homosexuality came to be considered a form of mental diseases, and women were no longer able to celebrate their sexuality - the availability of abortion was reduced, and abortion was later made a criminal offense on the grounds that women no longer had any reason to terminate pregnancy when they did not face the threat of material hardship.

Anti-revisionists, did Stalin uphold the legacy of his predecessors in the sphere of sexual relations? It would appear not.

[Wanted Man]

Great Helmsman: as far as I can figure, this is not about the Iraqi Communist Party, but about the Worker-Communist Party of Iraq, some kind of ultra-leftist group.

Anyway, this discussion has gone horribly off-topic. This thread is not about condemning "free love" (although that's one of the arguments used against the WCP for some reason). It looks more like a critique of the WCP's activities, which are apparently limited to earning money by making pornography. At least, that's what I gathered from the OP.

[BobKKKindle$]

Anyway, this discussion has gone horribly off-topic. This thread is not about condemning "free love" (although that's one of the arguments used against the WCP for some reason). It looks more like a critique of the WCP's activities, which are apparently limited to earning money by making pornography. At least, that's what I gathered from the OP.Yes, this thread has gone off topic - but discussing "free love" is interesting, and I hope GH will respond to the points I've made - maybe we can split the thread if this discussion continues.

As for the WSP in Iraq, although this Party does have a good position when it comes to social relations, unfortunately, there is no clear left alternative which is close to taking power or even yielding political influence - those communist parties which do exist generally do not have a strong base of support in strategic industrial sectors and also have an incorrect approach to important issues - including, in the case of the CP, the struggle against the occupation. However, that is not to say that class consciousness does not exist - Iraqi Oil workers have been amongst the most militant workers against the government's laws concerning changes to Iraq's economic structure, and the effects of the occupying forces on ordinary Iraqis. We need a unified Marxist party to intervene in these struggles in order to prevent workers from turning to Islamism or giving up hope.

The following document (hosted on the website it the WCP) may be of interest:
What are the differences between the Worker Communist Party of Iraq and the Iraqi Communist Party? (http://www.wpiraq.net/english/2004/differences120304.htm)

Apparently, the CP supported the economic sanctions against Iraq following the first gulf war - clearly any party which supports this policy (which resulted in the deaths of many iraqi civilians, as medical supplies and other basic goods were not available) and also supports the occupation is not worthy of any support.

[Herman]

Regarding Lenin's view: http://rs2kpapers.awardspace.com/the...t_from=&ucat=& (http://www.anonym.to/?http://rs2kpapers.awardspace.com/theory27b2.html?subaction=showfull&id=1140167502&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

Your point? Oh wait, I see. You're condemning Lenin, because he believed that the sexual phenomenom in Europe was decadent. Just like plenty of socialists who lived in that time, even your holy-I-shall-not-criticize "saint" Charles Marx was a bit of a homophobe!

Does this mean that we will outright stop being marxists? No. It's evidence of some of the wrong ideas that dominated society and socialists during their time.

[Xiao Banfa]

Great Helmsman: as far as I can figure, this is not about the Iraqi Communist Party, but about the Worker-Communist Party of Iraq, some kind of ultra-leftist group.

WCP(Iraq) are not an ultra leftist group. They are pro-Lenin.

But all the free love shit, I would keep well hidden in your private life, we don't need yet another barrier to muslims joining communist groups.

[Zurdito]

But all the free love shit, I would keep well hidden in your private life, we don't need yet another barrier to muslims joining communist groups.

Being a muslim is in itself a barrier to joinging a marxist group (I won't necessarilly comment on "communism", because there has been all kinds of religious idealism and utopianism that may pass itself off as some kind of pre-marxist communism). I don't see what compability can exist between historical materialism and religion. Sure, you could be a muslim and an active marxist, I am sure they exist, and I've been in groups with people of religion, including those who consider themselves christians. However it's not in line with our materialist theory. If God can put an idea in your mind, then ideas not not stem from material reality, and therefore we should logically seek solutions to our problems outside of the material. That belief is one of the biggest barriers to Marxism triumphing amongst the poor and opressed and always have been. Organised religion has been a strong opponent any time a real social revolution has been taking place in any society.

[Wanted Man]

But all the free love shit, I would keep well hidden in your private life, we don't need yet another barrier to muslims joining communist groups.
How so? I don't think that a communist group should somehow "make a statement" by having "free love" as a principal, but it certainly shouldn't be excluded either.

[Nakidana]

'decadent America and Europe' :laugh:

But even if that was true, that only serves to prove that the most progressive ideals regarding sex occur in the most 'economically advanced' places.

...

Call it 'raunch' culture but its actually sexual freedom.

I completely agree with comrade Martov! Truly the epitome of sexual liberation has been reached in the West, all societies should follow suit, ALL HAIL THE TRUE LIBERATION OF WOMYN!!!:

http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/1849825l.jpg

I am so proud. This is what communism is all about! :crying:

[Xiao Banfa]

Being a muslim is in itself a barrier to joinging a marxist group


That's bullshit. You're a barrier to a muslim joining a marxist group.

You have prevented, in your life, a number of muslims from joing marxist groups you cum snorting butt faetus.

[revoutionarysocialist]

What's wrong with free love?

did you read what lenin wrote to anisa?

[revoutionarysocialist]

What's wrong with free love?

did you read what lenin wrote about that?

[Red October]

Wh don't you explain it for us? What problem do you have with consenting adults doing what they want with each other?

[Leo]

did you read what lenin wrote to anisa?

Did you know that Lenin had a lover besides his wife who was also a married woman?

[Devrim]

WCP(Iraq) are not an ultra leftist group. They are pro-Lenin.
They do condemn the resistance though, and a certainly against the leftist position on national liberation.



Being a muslim is in itself a barrier to joinging a marxist group That's bullshit. You're a barrier to a muslim joining a marxist group.Of course being a Muslim is a barrier to joining a Marxist group.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

I know a marxist professor who also claims to be a muslim.

He is a very interesting fellow.

[Yazman]

That's bullshit. You're a barrier to a muslim joining a marxist group.

You have prevented, in your life, a number of muslims from joing marxist groups you cum snorting butt faetus.

Let me open by saying you need to chill the fuck out, right now, because this is not a forum for flames. Just keep it civil because the last thing we need is actual fighting here. Debates are fine, and they're even fine if they get a bit heated, but keep the mud-slinging outta here.

Secondly I would like to say, thanks for the update on the WCPI, revolutionarysocialist. It's good to hear about these things and good to know we've got comrades from all over letting us know how things are :)

Thirdly about all this free love stuff, here's my opinion: I find promiscuity to be repulsive and thoroughly disgusting, as well as far beyond my own personal ethics, HOWEVER I do still support the sexual liberation movement because what other people do in their bedrooms is none of my business, however repulsive I may find their promiscuity to be. My own personal views on this are not and should not be the authority on how to struggle and thus I still support their goals.

[Xiao Banfa]

Of course being a Muslim is a barrier to joining a Marxist group.


Yeah of course, we only want to liberate the non muslim proletarian.



Let me open by saying you need to chill the fuck out, right now, because this is not a forum for flames. Just keep it civil because the last thing we need is actual fighting here. Debates are fine, and they're even fine if they get a bit heated, but keep the mud-slinging outta here.


I was actually just kidding around. I thought the ridiculous nature of the insult mioght have given you a clue.

[Devrim]

Yeah of course, we only want to liberate the non muslim proletarian.

No, it is, however, impossible to be a communist, and a Muslim.

Communist believe in a world without money.

Muslims believe in a world where the rich throw scraps (alms) to the poor. In fact it is one of the five pillars of Islam.

Devrim

[Xiao Banfa]

No, it is, however, impossible to be a communist, and a Muslim.

Maybe technically it is impossible to subscribe to the marxist world view in it's entirety. You can agree with the economic principles of socialism and communism. This isn't without precedent.

Muslims proletarians have the same interests as any other group of proletarians.


Communist believe in a world without money.

Muslims believe in a world where the rich throw scraps (alms) to the poor. In fact it is one of the five pillars of Islam.

Yes, that's right "thy only social measure is a 2.5% tax and woe betide ye if thou doest more".

Zakat is just one measure of looking after the poor. Muslims living in western societies also pay tax to the government.

Zakat isn't necesarily the be all and end all of social policy.

Another point is the fact that religions reform. What was valid in the 6th century may not be valid now.

This is happened with Judaism and Christianity. Are you saying that Islam is a particularly wicked religion that cannot undergo a reformation?

You seem to keen on alienating all stripes of muslims and making them choose between their religion and participating in the revolution.

[Devrim]

Yes, that's right "thy only social measure is a 2.5% tax and woe betide ye if thou doest more".

Zakat is just one measure of looking after the poor. Muslims living in western societies also pay tax to the government.

Zakat isn't necesarily the be all and end all of social policy.

You miss my point completely. It is not that they don't give enough to the poor. It is that Islam envisages a world with rich, and poor. Communism envisages a world without money.


Another point is the fact that religions reform. What was valid in the 6th century may not be valid now.

If you are a Muslim the Koran is the revealed word of God. It is not up for reform.


Are you saying that Islam is a particularly wicked religion that cannot undergo a reformation?

This is a very western way to look at Islam.

Of course I am not saying that Islam is particularly wicked. I don't think members of any religons can be members of communist organisations.


You seem to keen on alienating all stripes of muslims and making them choose between their religion and participating in the revolution.

It is not a choice between participating in a revolution, and religion. Communist appel to workers as workers in defence of their class interests. Many Muslims will participate in a communist revolution, but as workers not as Muslims.

Devrim

[Xiao Banfa]

You miss my point completely. It is not that they don't give enough to the poor. It is that Islam envisages a world with rich, and poor. Communism envisages a world without money.


Pretty much every religion before Marx saw the world that way, yet there are jewish and christian anarchists and marxists.

There are also muslim anarchist and marxists. Are you going to tell them 'no you can't do that'? Will that help or hinder the progressive cause?


If you are a Muslim the Koran is the revealed word of God. It is not up for reform.

Religious reformation isn't about contradicting "God's word" it's about re-interpreting and re-contextualising "God's word". You can still believe the Qur'an is the word of God.

Lets say you are a muslim who believes God gave you an intellect, surely you'd be expected to use it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiao Banfa
Are you saying that Islam is a particularly wicked religion that cannot undergo a reformation?

This is a very western way to look at Islam.


How is it a "western way to look at Islam"? The ongoing Islamic Reformation which has been happening for the last couple of centuries (with varying degrees of popularity, I admit) also takes this view.

I'd say a western view of Islam is that of a thoroughly backward religion.


It is not a choice between participating in a revolution, and religion. Communist appel to workers as workers in defence of their class interests. Many Muslims will participate in a communist revolution, but as workers not as Muslims.

Now you are coming closer to my view, but in your language.

[Devrim]

Now you are coming closer to my view, but in your language.

I am not 'coming closer to you' at all. I absolutely reject the idea that Muslims, or members of any other religious group can be members of communist organisations.


Pretty much every religion before Marx saw the world that way, yet there are jewish and christian anarchists and marxists.

I have never heard of 'Christian Marxists' before. It is a contradiction in terms. We certainly wouldn't allow them in our organisation. As for 'Christian anarchists', they have nothing to do with class politics.


There are also muslim anarchist and marxists. Are you going to tell them 'no you can't do that'? Will that help or hinder the progressive cause?

I have never met one. The only ones I have ever heard of are kids from the west who have decided to be Islamic, not people who come from Muslim backgrounds. I think that they are a bit pathetic to be honest.

Am I going to tell these idiots that they can't join my organisation? Absolutely.

In the real world though, throughout the Middle East, Islam, and in particular Sunni Islam (which is the vast majority in our country) is resolutely anti-socialist, and I can't imagine a Muslim wanting to join us.


How is it a "western way to look at Islam"?

In saying that Islam needs a reformation


The ongoing Islamic Reformation which has been happening for the last couple of centuries (with varying degrees of popularity, I admit) also takes this view.

I haven't noticed it.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

I know a muslim marxist. He isn't a kid, he is a black professor that grew in the ghettos. I don't know why he is a muslim, but I think it has to do with black identity politics and how it was the original "black religion".

He is an interesting fellow. I wouldn't call him pathetic though. Probably a little bit silly, but I wouldnt compare it to the white kids who think islam is awesome.

[Leo]

I know a muslim marxist. He isn't a kid, he is a black professor that grew in the ghettos. I don't know why he is a muslim, but I think it has to do with black identity politics and how it was the original "black religion".

That would pretty much mean that he is more of a 'Nation of Islam' kind of fella rather than a Muslim in the generally accepted sense of the word. Their beliefs are more or less equally ridiculous, but practically so different that they have little to do with Islam.

The only connection original Islam had with blacks was that Mohammed had a black slave.

[Devrim]

I think that this puts them firmly outside of Islam:

NOI teaches that "Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July 1930; the long-awaited Messiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah) of the Christians and the Mahdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi) of the Muslims.
...Mainstream Islam teaches that Muhammad was the last of the messengers that Allah has sent to mankind--there would be no more, and the one for all to follow. The Nation of Islam believes that Elijah Muhammad was also a messenger and was taught by God Himself (W. D. Fard)
Devrim

[Bandito]

Stop,please...
Being a muslim is in itself a barrier to joinging a marxist group ....

Class concious people from all the world are joining marxist groups because they are liberated of all opressions forced upon them by birth.
Btw,if some arab(i hate the term muslim,it is like refering a european as christian) woman throws down her burka,that is more courage than you ever showed in your life. Me as well. And THAT is the way it's got to be.

[Edelweiss]

Devrim has a Muslim background as well....which is making this discussion, especially with Xiao Banfa, some western "communist" with a fetish for Islam, quiet absurd.

[Devrim]

Stop,please.......

Class concious people from all the world are joining marxist groups because they are liberated of all opressions forced upon them by birth.
Btw,if some arab(i hate the term muslim,it is like refering a european as christian) woman throws down her burka,that is more courage than you ever showed in your life. Me as well. And THAT is the way it's got to be.

The term Muslim is not used here to mean Arab, or somebody from a Muslim background. It is used to mean somebody who has a particular religious belief.


Devrim has a Muslim background as well....which is making this discussion, especially with Xiao Banfa, some western "communist" with a fetish for Islam, quiet absurd.

Actually, I don't. I have a not very Catholic background. Everyone else in our organisation (in Turkey) has a Muslim background though, including Leo who posts on here, who agrees with me.


Devrim

[Xiao Banfa]

I am not 'coming closer to you' at all. I absolutely reject the idea that Muslims, or members of any other religious group can be members of communist organisations.

I see. I misunderstood your intent when you said "It is not a choice between participating in a revolution, and religion. Communist appeal to workers as workers in defence of their class interests. Many Muslims will participate in a communist revolution, but as workers not as Muslims."

So what your saying is that they can do the work of the revolution, they just can't join the party. How democratic.

Does this apply to jews as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiao Banfa
How is it a "western way to look at Islam"?

In saying that Islam needs a reformation


How is this a "wetern way to look at Islam"?



I have never met one. The only ones I have ever heard of are kids from the west who have decided to be Islamic, not people who come from Muslim backgrounds. I think that they are a bit pathetic to be honest.

Almost all of the western muslims I know are not communists or on the left at all.

I'm refering to muslims in the middle east who are (or have been) in communist organisations.

Like Ahmed Jibril from the PFLP(GC) or the Communist Party of Sudan.

Or the coexistence of secularists, leftists and muslims in the FLN in the Algerian liberation struggle.

Let's just for the purpose of argument completely ignore the famous leftist wetern muslims who you so arrogantly dismiss as having no validity whatsoever (you obviously know so deeply of their experience outside the internet).


Am I going to tell these idiots that they can't join my organisation? Absolutely.


Your organisation is well known for being a purist bunch of marsh dwellers.



In the real world though, throughout the Middle East, Islam, and in particular Sunni Islam (which is the vast majority in our country) is resolutely anti-socialist, and I can't imagine a Muslim wanting to join us.


I'm aware of this. This is has not always been the case in the middle east.
What I'm saying is that a successful Islamic reformation will open the way to acceptance of democratic ideologies like marxism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiao Banfa
The ongoing Islamic Reformation which has been happening for the last couple of centuries (with varying degrees of popularity, I admit) also takes this view.

I haven't noticed it.


Maybe you haven't. I haven't made it up though. You should check out a book by Reza Aslan called "No God but God". It's not completely my perspective, but it's interesting and factually correct.

www.rezaaslan.com/nogodbutgod.html (http://www.rezaaslan.com/nogodbutgod.html)

[Xiao Banfa]

BTW, that's not a muslim on my avatar.

[black magick hustla]

That would pretty much mean that he is more of a 'Nation of Islam' kind of fella rather than a Muslim in the generally accepted sense of the word. Their beliefs are more or less equally ridiculous, but practically so different that they have little to do with Islam.

The only connection original Islam had with blacks was that Mohammed had a black slave.

Er. that is not true.

I don't think he likes the Nation of Islam. He is into the Black Panther, Huey Newton, Malcolm X, etc.

A lot of black slaves that came to the US were muslim. Whether that makes it ridicolous or not to be a muslim just because yoiu read somewhere else that early generations of slaves were muslims is another question.

[black magick hustla]

So what your saying is that they can do the work of the revolution, they just can't join the party. How democratic.

Does this apply to jews as well?

This is just liberalism. Communists don't organize a long "democratic" ideas based on solely what the masses think. We organize on communist principles. A muslim cannot be a communist. (I also have muslim background)

[Xiao Banfa]

Communists don't organize a long "democratic" ideas based on solely what the masses think.


That's not what I proposed.

[Devrim]

Er. that is not true.

I don't think he likes the Nation of Islam. He is into the Black Panther, Huey Newton, Malcolm X, etc.

Malcolm X was in the Nation of Islam.

Devrim

[Devrim]

How is this a "western way to look at Islam"?

Because essentially you are saying that Islam needs to go through the same process that Christianity did. It is an essentially Western outlook.


Maybe you haven't. I haven't made it up though. You should check out a book by Reza Aslan called "No God but God". It's not completely my perspective, but it's interesting and factually correct.

Again this is the sort of book that could only be produced in the West. It is an attempt to sanitise Islam, and make it acceptable to Western Liberals.


Almost all of the western muslims I know are not communists or on the left at all.

As I said, historically Islam is a right wing ideology. There do seem to be a few leftist kids though, like yourself, who have tagged on to Islam.



In the real world though, throughout the Middle East, Islam, and in particular Sunni Islam (which is the vast majority in our country) is resolutely anti-socialist, and I can't imagine a Muslim wanting to join us. I'm aware of this. This is has not always been the case in the middle east.
What I'm saying is that a successful Islamic reformation will open the way to acceptance of democratic ideologies like marxism.

Islam is resolutely anti-socialist.

Marxism is not a democratic ideology.


I see. I misunderstood your intent when you said "It is not a choice between participating in a revolution, and religion. Communist appeal to workers as workers in defence of their class interests. Many Muslims will participate in a communist revolution, but as workers not as Muslims."

So what your saying is that they can do the work of the revolution, they just can't join the party. How democratic.

Does this apply to jews as well?

Yes of course it applies to religious Jews, and Christians, and Buddhists, and whatever other religious ideology you care to mention. Religious belief is incompatible with membership of a communist organisation.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

Malcolm X was in the Nation of Islam.

Devrim

Yeah but he finished denouncing them.

[Leo]

I don't think he likes the Nation of Islam. He is into the Black Panther, Huey Newton, Malcolm X, etc.

He doesn't have to like the Nation of Islam, but the idea of "Islam as a Black Religion" is their idea and it's the influence of this idea which make black radicals symphatetic to Islam.


A lot of black slaves that came to the US were muslim.

That was, of course, because the arab armies had conquered big parts of Africa in the past and made the locals muslim.

And I would imagine that most of those muslims were forced to reject their religion after they went to America. There were lots of fanatical christians in America who would not have wanted to see Islam there.


Whether that makes it ridicolous or not to be a muslim just because yoiu read somewhere else that early generations of slaves were muslims is another question.

I didn't say that the early generation of slaves were muslims - you said it. What I meant was that the only black person who is mentioned in the history of the origins of Islam is Mohammed's slave. They made him read the prayers because his voice was stronger than others voices. This how 'originally black' islam was.


Yeah but he finished denouncing them.

He founded a group called 'Muslim Mosque, Inc' which stayed close to the ideas of Nation of Islam, although they modified them.

[Xiao Banfa]

Because essentially you are saying that Islam needs to go through the same process that Christianity did. It is an essentially Western outlook.


That's right. I'm issuing advice to muslims to go through same process that Christianity went through because only by copying christianity can they behave like us sophisticated jeffersonian liberals.

That's a very superficial way to look at the pro-reformation perspective.

It also assumes that Christianity has monopoly on re-examining and re-contextualising their religious texts.

Since the death of Mohammed muslims have been arguing over how to practice their religion.

Their has been screeds of text, wars, debates, revolutions, assassinations, anti-colonial movements over the subject of harmonising Islamic values with changing conditions.

This is not a western phenomenon.

Religions, philosophies change with time. Material conditions determine their content.


Again this is the sort of book that could only be produced in the West. It is an attempt to sanitise Islam, and make it acceptable to Western Liberals.

I can almost guarantee that you haven't read it and if you can't point out to me that Aslan has invented the history of the reformation I'll have to conclude that muslims have been trying to sanitize for western liberals Islam for quite some time.


As I said, historically Islam is a right wing ideology.

It is well known that Islam and socialism have many points of agreement.


There do seem to be a few leftist kids though, like yourself, who have tagged on to Islam.

Forget what I believe. I'm not trying to promote Islam- I'm trying to explain to you that the best tactic is to say to muslims that our marxist ideas don't have to take their religion away.


Marxism is not a democratic ideology.

Well yes and no. It doesn't fetishise democracy but it doesn't do away with it either.

[Gitfiddle Jim]

Islam is resolutely anti-socialist.


I totally agree, I feel there is a significant Fascist presence within the Islamic world, mainly regarding the actual practice of the religion.

However if there were to be a revolution I feel there would be a large Muslim participation, but as workers, not Muslims (as you said earlier).

And on a side note, happy birthday Xiao Banfa :thumbup: