3 out of 4 Australian IST groups unite.

[chebol]

I could make all manner of bad jokes, but i won't. I actually think this is a good development, even though I disagree with their politics, and with their approach to broader socialist regroupment.

Link one (http://communistwombat.blogspot.com/2008/02/socialist-unity-in-oz-two-steps-forward.html)
Link two (http://ozleft.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/solidarityconference/)

[Bilan]

Should be interesting.
Solidarity seemed okay from what I saw.

[Black Dagger]

Good on em; hopefully this new group will be able to challenge the dominance of SALT in Melbourne and SALL in Syd.

[Bilan]

BGM, you're making me wriggle with excitement at the thought of it!

[apathy maybe]

Ha ha ha ha.
Funny shit.

Sorry.

Anyway, I predict that it will result in a slightly more interesting political landscape on the left in Australia. And obviously, slightly fewer parties that people have never heard of, is a good thing.

I wonder how the decision was taken (that is, I wonder how many rank and file members actually had a say)? Wait, Socialist Alternative aren't part of it. Meh, hehe.

Funny how the policy in electoral matters seems to be "support the Greens, then Labor". Sort of like the Socialist Alliance policy, with the removal of "vote Socialist Alliance" before the other two.

[chebol]

Well, as far as I can tell, they're in no position to "challenge" Socialist Alliance anywhere. There's a wonderful degree of "La-la-land" on the farleft when it comes to the Alliance, whether it's about our numbers, our activity, the role of the DSP, our politics, or basically anything. And we're not doing too bad in Melbourne, despite SAlt's weight there. Not too bad at all, given that we have more members, and a better strategic intervention across the board. (Hint: number of posters on poles =/= political weight)

There used to be an old song, "Blame it on the Kelly's" where everything that went wrong in the community - from disease and cancer, to floods and car-crashes, was blamed on the Kelly-gang. The same approach is more or less applied to the DSP, and because the various grouplets have left it, the Socialist Alliance.

Like I said, I welcome the regroupment of these groups. But their national membership is barely 100, and their political level isn't exactly dynamite. Their best point is that they actually engage in, and help to lead, movements (particularly antiwar and indigenous) even if their politics and tactics are sometimes shitty. By contrast, SAlt have up to 200 members, all of whom have imbibed the "correct" politics, and are kept away from anything that might sully them.

I have heard quoted to me that around APEC, SAlt members justified shepherding their members away from any other person who wanted to talk politics (especially resitance members), because "they had to keep the vanguard pure until the revolution".

With regards to their conference and the voting, there were apparently 70 or 80 people there, which probably represents the majority of the membership. Sure to be more democratic than SAlt...

As for elections, well, I'm not going to preach to the perverted. ;-p

[apathy maybe]

"As for elections, well, I'm not going to preach to the perverted. ;-p"
Oh come on. I'm interested in what you think of them not saying "vote socialist" before "vote green".

As for SAlt, mehs all around. My (limited) experience is that they are good at certain things, including holding solidarity against everyone else (even against the police).

"There's a wonderful degree of "La-la-land" on the farleft when it comes to the Alliance, whether it's about our numbers, our activity, the role of the DSP, our politics, or basically anything."
There isn't much of that on the "ultraleft" though :p. We just hate you, without regard for your numbers, activity, role of the DSP etc. I think it is your politics. :p

[chebol]

Ok. Briefly. As far as elections go, unsurprisingly I think that in most situations it's nuts for explicitly socialist organisations to call for a vote for the ALP, and even the Greens, over other socialist organisations which are running. There may, of course be very good reasons to do so, tactically, or strategically, and the idea, while not the most desirable, should not be UTTERLY discounted.

The problem is that they not only call for a non-socialist vote and for another party, but that they deliberately ignore the existence of other socialist groups (even to say "don't vote for them. Here's why"). No doubt this makes it easier to justify to members the need to barrack for the Greens, but people in general aren't so gullible. They see socialists on the ballot, and then if a different socialist says "hi, I'm a socialist, vote Green" (and with no real explanation), well.... It's hardly edifying for the public image of the left, which is already seen as divided and sectarian.


There isn't much of that on the "ultraleft" though :p. We just hate you, without regard for your numbers, activity, role of the DSP etc. I think it is your politics. :p

One thing I really appreciate is honesty. Twisted, illogical, counterproductive, but honest. :rolleyes:

[Bilan]

Well, as far as I can tell, they're in no position to "challenge" Socialist Alliance anywhere.

Here's hoping, not stating.



There's a wonderful degree of "La-la-land" on the farleft when it comes to the Alliance, whether it's about our numbers, our activity, the role of the DSP, our politics, or basically anything.

My "beef" with the Socialist Alliance lies in a few places, namely, personal experiences with them, or 'you' if you'd prefer, and the (crap) justifcations for (crap) positions.
Salli, as I am going to call them, has a tendency to be hostile towards anarchists, so far, as after G20, was it not people from the Salli, and other 'socialist' groups denouncing the anarchists, and Arterial Blocks tactics?
Was it not those groups who preached solidarity, and oh so often, but fail to put it into action?
I believe so. Infact, I know so. And any honest revolutionary in Australia who has experienced organizing with Salli would know this, too.

And from the debates I had with Salli, or perhaps it was 'resistance', but members of both groups were there (that's if they're not part of each other - it gets confusing sometimes), where the justification for not making the connection between Howards government policies and capitalism, and socialist revolution being the solution to this problem, was that "the people aren't ready", as well similarly poor excuses.
"Medicare not warfare", and so on.
These are all blatantly reformist tendencies, as well. It seems more like top-down socialism than working class socialism, which explains alot of the attitudes of Salli members I've encountered.

And what the fuck about APEC!
The sheer cowardice of Salli!
To support, and try get others to, a root which was a mere 100 metres down a road so that all, or any possible confrontation with the pigs was to be erased, despite us having the right, having already declared the root of the march prior to this. Sheer fucking cowardice.
SAlli, along with these other bourgeois socialist groups, were willing to bow down to the police; to hide; to cower in fear; if only to create a moral high ground; to maintain a facade of 'peace'. Hell, to prove something.
But all that they proved was that you're a bunch of cowards.
Full stop.

Sorry, this is not a personal attack, but I loathe those groups.




And we're not doing too bad in Melbourne, despite SAlt's weight there. Not too bad at all, given that we have more members, and a better strategic intervention across the board. (Hint: number of posters on poles =/= political weight)

The SP seems to be doing alot better.
Not to mention being a far more working class socialist party, having its roots in working class communities, not universities.



There used to be an old song, "Blame it on the Kelly's" where everything that went wrong in the community - from disease and cancer, to floods and car-crashes, was blamed on the Kelly-gang. The same approach is more or less applied to the DSP, and because the various grouplets have left it, the Socialist Alliance.

No, things are blamed on Salli because of the reformist nature of the group, as well as the hostility towards others, the arrogance, and the cowardice.



I have heard quoted to me that around APEC, SAlt members justified shepherding their members away from any other person who wanted to talk politics (especially resitance members), because "they had to keep the vanguard pure until the revolution".

Of which they wont take part in, so you don't need to even worry about that.
SAlt shy's away from any form of revolutionary organizing or activism.

[Black Dagger]

Ok. Briefly. As far as elections go, unsurprisingly I think that in most situations it's nuts for explicitly socialist organisations to call for a vote for the ALP, and even the Greens, over other socialist organisations which are running. There may, of course be very good reasons to do so, tactically, or strategically, and the idea, while not the most desirable, should not be UTTERLY discounted.

The problem is that they not only call for a non-socialist vote and for another party, but that they deliberately ignore the existence of other socialist groups (even to say "don't vote for them. Here's why"). No doubt this makes it easier to justify to members the need to barrack for the Greens, but people in general aren't so gullible. They see socialists on the ballot, and then if a different socialist says "hi, I'm a socialist, vote Green" (and with no real explanation), well.... It's hardly edifying for the public image of the left, which is already seen as divided and sectarian.


What is the purpose of running candidates in the election anyway? Is is it meant to be some kind of long haul strategy? 'Well eventually, maybe, we'll have enough support to win a single senate slot' or what have you? I just don't think that is a good use of supporter $$$ but eh - that must what the members want right? Otherwise it wouldn't be happening?

[chebol]

bleeding gums malatesta said:

What is the purpose of running candidates in the election anyway? Is is it meant to be some kind of long haul strategy? 'Well eventually, maybe, we'll have enough support to win a single senate slot' or what have you?

If we wanted to win a "slot", we'd be doing what the Socialist Party is - spending almost all of our effort on raising the profile of one man, in one council. We run in elections because it is the one time when everyone is forced to engage with/ take part in politics in some way. It provides us with the opportunity to get across to a wider audience and new people, and to expose the capitalist parties and system when more people are paying attention to politics.

The "long-haul" strategy as far as I (and the DSP) are concerned, is building a revolutionary movement and broad revolutionary socialist party in order to overthrow capitalism. The socialist alliance has no clear position on revolutionary/ non-revolutionary strategy, because it is still a project for building a larger, broader left party, which will need to learn many of the lessons itself in order to reach the political understanding of how to destroy the capitalist system.


Proper Tea is Theft wrote:

Here's hoping, not stating.
Given the rest of your politics, I can only assume this to be pure sectarianism for the sake of sectarianism.


Salli, as I am going to call them, has a tendency to be hostile towards anarchists,
Socialist Alliance (SA, as opposed to SAlt = Socialist Alternative) does not "have a tendency to be hostile towards anarchists". In fact we have members who are anarchists.
The differences you are pointing to to are largely tactical ones, rather than dependent upon your overall politics.


Salli, and other 'socialist' groups denouncing the anarchists, and Arterial Blocks tactics?
Bingo! Your tactics! Not you. Not your politics. Your decision to do stupid things at rallies that selfishly put other people in danger, and undermined the ability of the rally to get its message - against the G20 and what it stands for - across. Instead, the media gets to talk about violent protesters, vandals, hooligans, 'anarchists', etc, and gets to avoid dealing with the politics of the day.

Maybe you feel "cool", or like you acheived something by attacking a police truck, but all you managed to do was serve the interests of the govt, police and corporate interests present on the day by obscuring the politics. Well done.

Tell you what, if you hate me for disagreeing with those tactics, I'm GLAD you hate me.


Was it not those groups who preached solidarity, and oh so often, but fail to put it into action?
See my point above. The Arterial Bloc undermined the solidarity of the rally, in a number of ways.


any honest revolutionary
If you insist...



And from the debates I had with Salli, or perhaps it was 'resistance', but members of both groups were there (that's if they're not part of each other - it gets confusing sometimes),
It's not really that hard mate. The DSP and Resistance are both affiliates of the Socialist Alliance. So, you had DSP members who were SA members, Resistance members who were SA members, and SA members who weren't members of any affiliates. NOT a big task for your little brain.



"the people aren't ready"
If the people - taken as a whole (by which I mean not only the objective circumstances, but also peoples' political consciousness, their level of organisation, their willingness to take the system on) - ARE ready, then why haven't they gone and overthrown the capitalist system yet? They're not. We need to help fix that problem, not pretend it isn't there and alienate ourselves from them.


And what the fuck about APEC!
The sheer cowardice of Salli!
Oh yes. Cowardice. Of course. Not reason. Not a rational plan for getting the most people out on the streets in the face of massive police, media and govt fear-mongering. Of course not. We were just sitting around, peeing in our pants.
No doubt the big strong anarchists were fine though. Right?


To support, and try get others to, a root which was a mere 100 metres down a road so that all, or any possible confrontation with the pigs was to be erased, despite us having the right, having already declared the root of the march prior to this. Sheer fucking cowardice.
SAlli, along with these other bourgeois socialist groups, were willing to bow down to the police; to hide; to cower in fear; if only to create a moral high ground; to maintain a facade of 'peace'. Hell, to prove something.
But all that they proved was that you're a bunch of cowards.
Full stop.
As far as "rights" go, unless you want to talk about the 'right' of the working class to do whatever it damn well pleases, and stuff the govt (which I support), then no, we had no right. The court took the legal "right" (as limited and pointless as that was) that we had away on the Wednesday.
Routes (not "roots" - the are what plants, and some people, get) change. We decide this based upon necessity. If you wanted to lead the rally into a confrontation with the police, why didn't you? I'll tell you. Noone except you and you're mates would have gone.
Why's that now? Well, I for one, wasn't "scared" of the police, per se (when you've been used for pot-shots by third world armies, "scared" takes on a new meaning). But I was scared that those people who WERE scared of the cops might have been injured, or further frightened. And that those who didn't come to the rally because they were scared would be further scared into not going to rallies in the future.
I was scared that people like you with no sense of what a mass movement really fucking is would fuck the whole thing up and set the anti-war movement back by 3 years.
As it is, you were obviously scared enough not to take on the cops by yourself, which was a wise choice.
Oh, and in this rally, our winning the "high moral ground" as you put it, was what those of us with experience call "a political victory" over Howard, the police and the NSW govt. And you saw it on the front page of the SMH straight after the rally. The police were under the spotlight for being over the top. The direct opposite of when Arterial Bloc chucked a tantrum in Melbourne.


Sorry, this is not a personal attack, but I loathe those groups.
My tone is starting to get personal. It's not meant to be. I just loathe stupid tactics. Irather suspect that you don't understand those groups that you "loathe" however.



The SP seems to be doing alot better.
Not to mention being a far more working class socialist party, having its roots in working class communities, not universities.
One councillor and 30 members isn't "doing alot better" or "far more working class" compared to over 700 members, many of whom a leaders of the trade union movement, rank-and-file organisations, Union Solidarity, etc, etc, etc, etc. As for universities, perhaps you'd be surprised how few SA members are at university.



the hostility towards others, the arrogance,
Given the mistakes and arrogance in the rest of your post, this is almost funny.

You're doing a very good impression, by the way, of someone who really knows nothing about organising working class, revolutionary politics and knows everything about egoistic moralising. No offence, by the way.

[Bilan]

Proper Tea is Theft wrote:

Given the rest of your politics, I can only assume this to be pure sectarianism for the sake of sectarianism.

Not really. It's more that SAlli tends to dominate protests, and water down politics. :ohmy:



Socialist Alliance (SA, as opposed to SAlt = Socialist Alternative) does not "have a tendency to be hostile towards anarchists". In fact we have members who are anarchists.
The differences you are pointing to to are largely tactical ones, rather than dependent upon your overall politics.That's why I said a tendency, not out right hostility.




Bingo! Your tactics! Not you. Not your politics. Your decision to do stupid things at rallies that selfishly put other people in danger, and undermined the ability of the rally to get its message - against the G20 and what it stands for - across. Instead, the media gets to talk about violent protesters, vandals, hooligans, 'anarchists', etc, and gets to avoid dealing with the politics of the day. Oh, you mean, because people were willing to challenge the repressive actions of the state, to not cower, but to actively struggle and confront the police, and to actually bring the meeting to a stand still, we are "underminding the ability of the rally to get its message accross"?
Bollocks. The only thing that Arterial Bloc undermined was the polices repression of the protest.



Maybe you feel "cool", or like you acheived something by attacking a police truck, but all you managed to do was serve the interests of the govt, police and corporate interests present on the day by obscuring the politics. Well done.Who said I "condoned", or took part in that?
On the contrary, I was stating that you lot are bunch of cowardly reformist twats, who failed to stand with those who were willing to stand up against the police and actively shut down the meeting, not organize some crappy "counter meeting", or worthless peaceful protest.
No revolution will occur in Australia due to the work of reformist groups like SAlli.



See my point above. The Arterial Bloc undermined the solidarity of the rally, in a number of ways.No, it didn't. Arterial Bloc requested, and openly told the other groups who were organizing against G20 what they intended to do, and opted to stay away from the Peaceful rally, so as not to put them in (anymore) danger (noting that it was dangerous anyway).
So, that is bullshit, and baseless.




It's not really that hard mate. The DSP and Resistance are both affiliates of the Socialist Alliance. So, you had DSP members who were SA members, Resistance members who were SA members, and SA members who weren't members of any affiliates. NOT a big task for your little brain.
Actually, the statement was an insult.
I meant more you all act the same, do the same thing, and have an over lapping small membership.



If the people - taken as a whole (by which I mean not only the objective circumstances, but also peoples' political consciousness, their level of organisation, their willingness to take the system on) - ARE ready, then why haven't they gone and overthrown the capitalist system yet? They're not. We need to help fix that problem, not pretend it isn't there and alienate ourselves from them.That wasn't the point I was making at all.



Oh yes. Cowardice. Of course. Not reason. Not a rational plan for getting the most people out on the streets in the face of massive police, media and govt fear-mongering. Of course not. We were just sitting around, peeing in our pants.
No doubt the big strong anarchists were fine though. Right?You were peeing in your pants, and your sarcasm, despite best attempts, doesn't change that. I went to the big organizing events for APEC. SAlli, SAlt, and other bourgeois socialist groups demanded we take the 100 metre root so as not to piss of the pigs.
So, instead of exercisering power to the people", knowing there were going to be large numbers of people, your groups insisted we cower to the police.
That is cowardice. Not rationality.
Infact, I wouldn't be suprised if that crap plan turned people away.
I would not go to a 100 metre rally.
That's not dissent. That's not resistance. That's a waste of our fucking time.
Cowards.



As far as "rights" go, unless you want to talk about the 'right' of the working class to do whatever it damn well pleases, and stuff the govt (which I support), then no, we had no right. The court took the legal "right" (as limited and pointless as that was) that we had away on the Wednesday.And prior to that, we had that right. And insteaded of resisting the polices repression against the demonstration, the groups opted to accept it, and cower.




Routes (not "roots" - the are what plants, and some people, get) change. We decide this based upon necessity. If you wanted to lead the rally into a confrontation with the police, why didn't you? I'll tell you. Noone except you and you're mates would have gone.It's not about a violent confrontation, but about not cowering, and bending over backwards to please the police, purely out of fear.
The politics of SAlli and other groups which opted for this 100 metre rally are what dampened, and killed the spirit of that protest.



Why's that now? Well, I for one, wasn't "scared" of the police, per se (when you've been used for pot-shots by third world armies, "scared" takes on a new meaning). But I was scared that those people who WERE scared of the cops might have been injured, or further frightened. And that those who didn't come to the rally because they were scared would be further scared into not going to rallies in the future.
I was scared that people like you with no sense of what a mass movement really fucking is would fuck the whole thing up and set the anti-war movement back by 3 years.The Anti-War movement in Australia is in shambles anyway, and 3 years ago, it was hardly any better or worse: it was still shit.
It was bigger in the beginning, and once again, the anti-war spirit was crushed by the poor organizing, and crappy politics of these groups.



As it is, you were obviously scared enough not to take on the cops by yourself, which was a wise choice.
Oh, and in this rally, our winning the "high moral ground" as you put it, was what those of us with experience call "a political victory" over Howard, the police and the NSW govt. And you saw it on the front page of the SMH straight after the rally. The police were under the spotlight for being over the top. The direct opposite of when Arterial Bloc chucked a tantrum in Melbourne.Yeah, and thats good, but thats not the most important part.
Pleasing the bourgeois media, as your group insists on doing, is not going to bring about any change in attitude towards the state, the war, and capitalism.
And the members of Arterial Bloc, not to mention the actions, could've been alot better defended if the cowards on the 'left' - SAlli, SAlt, etc - didn't stab them in the back (such as naming people involved to the pigs - what a piece of shit - and showing no solidarity with those willing to struggle against the police).

I think Arterial Bloc made some mistakes, and as a comrade put well, 'shot our selves in the foot a bit', but the mistakes are not what SAlli and SAlt claim. IT's not because Arterial Bloc fought instead of waved a placard and joined an e-list. It's not because Arterial Bloc covered their faces instead of showing them to the police (which is a fucking stupid idea anyway, why would be involved in revolutionary violence show the pigs who they are? Idiots.).
IT was that Arterial Bloc failed to spread enough anti-G20 and anti-capitalist propaganda in the lead up to the event, during the event, and after the event; it was the inability for other revolutionary groups to stand with those who fought (because, we support those who are innocent, as they are being persecuted by the state, but we support those who are guilty, too).
Lack of solidarity, and lack of propaganda were the biggest issues.




My tone is starting to get personal. It's not meant to be. I just loathe stupid tactics. Irather suspect that you don't understand those groups that you "loathe" however.Oh, I do. Believe me.




One councillor and 30 members isn't "doing alot better" or "far more working class" compared to over 700 members, many of whom a leaders of the trade union movement, rank-and-file organisations, Union Solidarity, etc, etc, etc, etc. As for universities, perhaps you'd be surprised how few SA members are at university.


I'd beg to differ.
Not to mention that SP's politics are far better than that of SAlli.
And so what if you have members in the Trade Union movement?
The Trade Union movement is at an all time low, because of the bureaucratic nature of Unions in Australia.
There are few good unions here, exceptions being the MUA, FFU, CFMEU, AWU (not so bad), and a few others.
Most of them, SDA, etc. are fucking rubbish.
I don't see what you have to be proud of in this sense.
And I'm also curious, despite your numbers, you don't seem to be doing much outside of activist ghettos, like Newtown.
Enlighten me.

Union Solidarity I have out right respect for.
But Union Solidarity is much more radical, and openly radical at that, than SAlli.

For clarity, it's not the members I necessarily have an issue with, but the organization, and what it does.
But of course, I have issues with some of the members no less.




Given the mistakes and arrogance in the rest of your post, this is almost funny.I'm thinking the same, sugar.



You're doing a very good impression, by the way, of someone who really knows nothing about organising working class, revolutionary politics and knows everything about egoistic moralising. No offence, by the way.
Haha, fail.

[SpikeyRed]

I want to state un-eqovocially straight up that I am actually a member of the Socialist Party in Melbourne, just to get that straight out there.


If we wanted to win a "slot", we'd be doing what the Socialist Party is - spending almost all of our effort on raising the profile of one man, in one council. We run in elections because it is the one time when everyone is forced to engage with/ take part in politics in some way. It provides us with the opportunity to get across to a wider audience and new people, and to expose the capitalist parties and system when more people are paying attention to politics.

The "long-haul" strategy as far as I (and the DSP) are concerned, is building a revolutionary movement and broad revolutionary socialist party in order to overthrow capitalism. The socialist alliance has no clear position on revolutionary/ non-revolutionary strategy, because it is still a project for building a larger, broader left party, which will need to learn many of the lessons itself in order to reach the political understanding of how to destroy the capitalist system.Your 'analysis' of what the Socialist Party is doing in it's electoral work is pure rhetoric and show's both a lack of understanding and knowledge of what the SP is doing. For starters we don't 'spend almost all our effort raising the profile of one man'. I want to say straight up the work we do on the City of Yarra council is actually very important work for us, but to put this work down to some sort of implied personality-cult is typical of SALLI and a complete mis-understand\mis-representation of the objective reality. The reality is that the Socialist Party holds a position on Yarra council, that is an elected position of power, even though it is in a capitalist state aparatus, it is something that SALLI has not been able to achieve anywhere in Australia, and this flows from their politics. SP also is involved in many other campaings and issues, such as the UNITE campaign, something SALLI wouldn't dare sully their hands with, the defending of the G20 arestees, once again something SALLI wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, Koori Issues, such as the occupation on smith street. SP also has a long history of concrete campainging on concrete issues from local Racism (The boycot the birmy campaing) to Refugee's, to supporting Union Solidarity to campaing on Heroine reform. The attempt to reduce us to some sort of personality cult is insulting and once again, typical of the DSP and SALLI who can't handle it when other organisations make way bigger gains, that flow directly from different (and way better) politics.

The fact that the particular individual who works in this position is one of our leading comrades is not an issue, nor is it something we would shy away from. Infact It is something that I am PROUD my party does. When was the last time SALLI got down into the streets of the city and talked to real working class people and did something about concrete-everday issues that affect the working class? I don't see SALLI saving child-care places, I don't see SALLI doing work on the Housing commisions helping some of Melbournes poorest people win gains and fight back against the neo-liberal onslaught, and I don't see SALLI organising rallies to defend some of Melbournes last Koori population. When was the last time a Public Housing tenant saw a DSP or SALLI member supporting one of their events? When was the last time a resident in Yarra got door knocked by SALLI to talk about local concrete working class issues? Not nearly as many times as the SP has been down doing this stuff.

Secondary to that, your stated Electoral reasoning is suspectly similar to the SP's, something that you obviously failed to mention, even though you demonstrate such a clear understanding of our methods, politics and actions :rolleyes:

As for the DSP's actions are creating a 'broad left formation and letting it learn it's own lessons' I can only point to the complete and utter failure of the Socialist Alliance, which the SP has consistently opposed from the begginging, on grounds that have proven to be 100% correct. (See Appendix B in following article for SP's position\contribution to SA debate
http://www.socialistpartyaustralia.org/archives/2008/02/03/the-case-for-a-new-workers%e2%80%99-party/)


and undermined the ability of the rally to get its message - against the G20 and what it stands for - across.SALLI and the DSP are in NO position to criticize anyone else for 'undermining the ability' of any rally to 'get across it's [anti-capitalist] message'. The DSP and SALLI are the ones who diluted the APEC protest to an 'anti-war' demo in Sydney, aswell as going against the DEMOCRACTIC WILL of the Convergence meeting the night before in Sydney (I would know, I was there). The majority of the meeting, through democratic and direct vote, rejected the imposed 'resolution' of the SALLI\DSP dominated 'organising committee' or whatever name the beaucratic and imposing oraganisation was called to have a COWARDLY route, and instead to have some militancy and show a challenge (not directly attack) the police and the State. SALLI's decision to take the issue of the route to the (capitalist) courts was stupid, and showed a lack of guts, militancy and determination to stand up to the Capitalist and their state machine. Fuck, the Bureaucrat Skipone who was in charge of the police was more militant than SALLI\DSP when he came out and said 'We dont care what the courts say, we're blocking the protest'! From my point of view that was MORE of a turn off than for people than being militant! As a young and new-to-the-movement at the time member, I was uterly disgusted and repulsed by the capitulation of the march to this blatant intimidation! Hell the fuckign 'organising committee' didn't even have the balls to do the 'sit in' they propsed in the middle of the march! How pathetic! All of this undermines the Anti-Capitalist movment, and not least opens up politcal space for the far right (Such as the so called 'New-Right') to take advantage of a militant and anti-capitalist position! And they did! You self indulgent intellectual-ist tossers!


undermined the solidarity of the rallyThis seems to be a faviourite quote for DSP\SALLI, I remember that whingy bourgeoise reformist beaucrat Alex Bainbridge almost hissing it at the convergence the night before APEC protest. The fact of the matter is that the DSP are most often the culprits of 'undermining solidarity'. There public denouncment of Anarchist COMRADES after G20 was attrocious and did actualy undermine some level of Solidarity that existed.
Apart from that, the so-called 'Solidarity' of the APEC march that Bainbridge seemed so hysterical about never existed because it was the Damn DSP\SALLI plan that was trying to be IMPOSED on the broader left that he was refering to and asking not be be 'undermined', when the truth of the matter is that a democratic, majority, spontaneous and natural solidarity occured when the vote on the route was taken at the convergence, and then THIS was underminded by the DSP\SALLI controlled marshals on the day.
Shame on you SALLI\DSP, you Cowards.
Once again your rhetoric and objective reality are so fucking contradictory that in conjures to mind 'Doublethink'


It's not really that hard mate. The DSP and Resistance are both affiliates of the Socialist Alliance. So, you had DSP members who were SA members, Resistance members who were SA members, and SA members who weren't members of any affiliates. NOT a big task for your little brain.Your Implying that DSP and Resitancance are two totally separate organizations that just happen to be Affiliated to SA, but this is not the case, and is charactersistic of the dishonest and shady front tactics of the DSP. It is a well known fact that DSP\Resistance are long time sister organisations, and they have ALOT of cross over members. FFS, Resitance use the same style Broad-sheets as the DSP, and spruik GLW just as much. AVSN is another Front group in the same league that I'd just like to quickly mention.

I also want to point out that while DSP think they are so clever and sneaky with their semi-maoist front group tactics, by trying to snare all their target markets with a different 'group', which is essentially just a rebranding of the same old DSP with different slogans, the vast majority of people see through this tactic very quickly and are put off by it immensly. The ammount of people who I talk to who are interested in the left, but have seen this ugly ugly side of it, is amazing! They are all so damn frustrated and confused by it, and need it to be carefully explained, as if to be led through a mine-field of bullshit, before they even want to talk about the real issues, is amazing! Once again DSP's rhetoric and objective reality are just so damn out of synch it's not even ammusing!

Oh and I'd like to suggest that perhaps now even SALLI is just a front group for the DSP since the ISO was almost fully destroyed by it, and has now left, as have many of the other smaller left formations that helped start it.


If the people - taken as a whole (by which I mean not only the objective circumstances, but also peoples' political consciousness, their level of organisation, their willingness to take the system on) - ARE ready, then why haven't they gone and overthrown the capitalist system yet? They're not. We need to help fix that problem, not pretend it isn't there and alienate ourselves from them.As PT has pointed out, you've completely mis-represented him, but I want to adress this point anyway. The DSP\SALLI tactic of watering down their slogans and politics to try and attract the masses to them is ridiculous. Let's just stop and think for a second, what if 'Medicare not Warfare' did actually attract masses of workers to joining DSP\SALLI. What would DSP\SALLI do then? Lock them all in a room and make them learn the Communist Manifesto by rote? Kind of try and spring revolutionary socialism on them now that they've got their ear? This is a really absurd notion. The way to win the masses to socialism is not to hide your politics, try and win them with watered down slogans and then once you deem them ready, spring your 'real' politics on them. The way to win the masses of workers to Socialism is to combine REAL socialist political lines and explanations, with concrete action, just like the SP does with it's position on Yarra council, and in the many other campaigns it runs or is involved with. This exposes the Stalinist policy of the 'Popular Front' that the DSP\SALLI clings too, as opposed to a United Front method the the SP employs.

To link this back to your quote, your right Chebol, in saying we need to address the problem of the conciousness of the masses, however the DSP\SALLI approach to this is completlty out of wack with reality, and history has proved it has disastorous consequences. Fools.


Oh yes. Cowardice. Of course. Not reason. Not a rational plan for getting the most people out on the streets in the face of massive police, media and govt fear-mongering. Of course not. We were just sitting around, peeing in our pants.I've never heard anyone sound MORE like they're having a problem with a spasming blader, and perhaps even sphincter than Alex Bainbridge in the leadup to APEC. As for the rest of the SALLI\DSP leadership involved in the confused-conspiracy to hi-jack the anti-apec march, they were all in the same boat.

Your right actually, it was cowardice, not a rational plan for getting the most people on the streets. The way to do that would of been to appeal to the militant rank and file workers who are sick of the Neo-Liberal system and are searching for answers. But no, once again Stalinist Popular-Front style politics was employed. Hoorah! Fucking wankers.


I was scared that people like you with no sense of what a mass movement really fucking is would fuck the whole thing up and set the anti-war movement back by 3 years.
As it is, you were obviously scared enough not to take on the cops by yourself, which was a wise choice.
Oh, and in this rally, our winning the "high moral ground" as you put it, was what those of us with experience call "a political victory" over Howard, the police and the NSW govt. And you saw it on the front page of the SMH straight after the rally. The police were under the spotlight for being over the top. The direct opposite of when Arterial Bloc chucked a tantrum in MelbourneDon't lecuter anyone on what a 'mass movement' is you member-of-a-petty-reformist-softstalinist-bureaucratic party. The fact of the matter is that there was a 'mass' democractic vote at the convergence, and SALLI\DSP ignored it. Well done. Definitly prooved your masses-friendly credentials there. Seems you only like 'the mass' when they agree with your prescription. Hmmm... Sounds kinda like the IMF actually...

Oh and well done, we were the Bourgeoise media's little darlings, prooving we really could be intimidated into doing what the state wanted. Wow, we sure showed that state, we stood up too them! We marched where they wanted us to in our definace! We really showed them! Woah! If I was Iemma I would of been shaking in my boots (stamping on a human face)!.
And the Masses were obviously impressed with us, because the Bourgeoise medias manipulation of the events led to them joining our organisations and the fight against capitalism in droves! Wow!

Fucking hell!
I was pretty fucking impresed with Aterial bloc for standing up to that shit, and thats when I was a militant-ish unconcious worker. Your APEC shit was just boring, and I was there.


One councillor and 30 members isn't "doing alot better" or "far more working class" compared to over 700 members, many of whom a leaders of the trade union movement, rank-and-file organisations, Union Solidarity, etc, etc, etc, etc. As for universities, perhaps you'd be surprised how few SA members are at university.You have no understanind of the SP. I would point out that your figures on our membership are wrong, but not by a qualitative ammount. But thats ok because I have more damning points to make. First of all, our membership figure is growing and not falling (As the SALLI figure is), also, I would point out, despite the fact SALLI has poored way more money into elections than us, they have had no results in any way measurable to ours. Thirdly, unless your willing to name names on leaders of Unions it doesn't mean jack. You could have the fucking leader of the biggest union in the country in SALLI and it wouldn't mean jack because he's a right wing anti-gay, anti-women catholic mafia figure who uses his union to dominate the right wing ALP. The fact is alot of so called Union-leaders in australia completly sell out their class, as PT pointed out. The SP also has many Union figures in it's ranks, the difference is, our Union members are wholely and solely left-wing unionists worth their weight in gold to the working class.
Following on from this the SP *IS* far more working class than the SALLI or DSP. This is because of our membership, and our politics.
Do some reasearch on us, maybe you'd find that if it wasn't so fucking embarrasing for you, you'd drop straight out of the DSP and join the SP in an instant.

Anyway, enjoy your navel-gazing and rhetorical-masturbation as a member of the DSP\SALLI.

P.S. Your name wouldn't happen to be anything like Kamenev or Zinoviev would it?

[apathy maybe]

"One thing I really appreciate is honesty. Twisted, illogical, counterproductive, but honest. "
It was a joke :rolleyes:.
Honestly though, I find Socialist Alliance policies and politics to be just slightly better then the Greens. Reformist. I don't hate Socialist Alliance, and I feel slightly happy when I hear they get votes, but for the same reason as for the same feeling when I hear about Green successes. It shows that at least some people are moving left.

As for Socialist Alliance tactics? I find them useless for any revolutionary purpose. I've participated in more then one protest run by Socialist Alliance (or Resistance, whatever). 30 people at the most, mostly 10 or 15. The issues are fine, but the protests don't exactly cause change. The events (film screenings etc.) are similarly meh.

I think that Critical Mass (which doesn't have an explicitly revolutionary line...) actually does more consciousness raising then most of the things done by SA, including the running in election thingy.

(Most of my experience with SA was in Hobart. Now onto bigger events.)


At APEC the other year, I was disgusted by the talk talk talk rally style bullshit run by (I was told) Socialist Alliance. That lasted far too long, until it was dark. The protest was then shepherded down the foreshore, boxed in and the protesters were basically a little bit of spectacle and theatre for the restaurant goers. It was too dark to really know what was going on.

At the Baxter protest I went to, I found on SA member. The rest were having the annual conference...

At a refugee thing in Canberra, I think it was actually SAlt that were being the rejects and dickheads (solidarity against everyone, including when the police are attacking...). I don't recall SA doing much at all actually...

[chebol]

SpikeyRed:
I'm well aware of the work the SP does in the community.
I'm also well aware of the work it doesn't do, and of the work it can't do because it is limited (mostly) to Melbourne.
Furthermore, I (better than almost anyone else in the country) know what Socialist Alliance's actual membership is, as well as the activity of its membership. We have well over 700 financial members, and that is growing every day (literally actually).
No, I am not going to give you a list of names of our union members, but I'll give you a handful: Chris Cain (WA MUA state secretary), Craig Johnston (former VIC AMWU state sec - fitted up and sent to jail for nine months for doing his job), Tim Gooden (Geelong and Regional trades hall secretary), Susan Price (UNSW branch-president NTEU), Raul Bassi (delegate TWU). I could go on for hours. But the point is that there re hundreds of rank-and-file militant unionists. You don't want to admit they're there? Fine. Keep dreaming.
As for UNITE, we approached the SP when it was being set up, wanting to be involved. Anthony Main told us in no uncertain terms that for now you wanted to keep it as an SP front. It is, by the way, still a good initiative, but unnecessarily narrow.
I really don't have the space here to nominate all the campaigns SA is involved in, and I'm not going to take the bait of your straw arguments, but seeing as you raised UNITE, we initiated the United Casual Workers' Alliance in the Gold Coast, organising hospitality workers, several years ago.



Socialist Alliance, which the SP has consistently opposed from the begginging, on grounds that have proven to be 100% correct.

Tell me, do you not see the irrational reasoning behind this argument. The SP calls for a new workers' party, but refuses to work with the rest of the left in trying to build one, and then, because we haven't overthrown capitalism yet, it's clear we have "failed". This in turn, justifies the original sectarianism post factum.


The DSP and SALLI are the ones who diluted the APEC protest to an 'anti-war' demo in Sydney, aswell as going against the DEMOCRACTIC WILL of the Convergence meeting the night before in Sydney (I would know, I was there). The majority of the meeting, through democratic and direct vote, rejected the imposed 'resolution' of the SALLI\DSP dominated 'organising committee' or whatever name the beaucratic and imposing oraganisation was called to have a COWARDLY route, and instead to have some militancy and show a challenge (not directly attack) the police and the State.

You were there the night before. Not for the months before when it became clear that an action of the kind you wanted would be counterproductive. The decision of the night before the rally was overturning all previous decisions by the Stop Bush Committee, which was not SA/ DSP "dominated" (how would you know anyway, not being there? Does sectarianism make you psychic or something?). The decision to make it a "peaceful" march was in order to get the biggest number of people there, in the face of massive state repression. Sometimes it is necessary to use less radical demands to win a tactical battle.
APEC was not G20. Not by a long shot.

The decision on the day to march up Park street was not a "DSP" decision, it was a decision of everyone in the rally, except for a small part of the far left, much of which had got to Sydney one day before and wanted to "act tough" (call it what you will, but that is what your tactic amounted to). But I'm clearly wasting my time explaining what was happening to you, as you have a set-piece formula for how you think it "should have been" (always more comfy that "how-it-actually-was"). Just remember that a rally is more than you and your comrades, or the organised, class-conscious left.


As a young and new-to-the-movement at the time member, I was uterly disgusted and repulsed

I don't want to make too much of this, but, once again, a bit of experience, and maybe you'll see things more clearly.


Your Implying that DSP and Resitancance are two totally separate organizations that just happen to be Affiliated to SA,
No I'm not. But they ARE both separate organisations, which make their own individual decisions, regardless of some crossover of membership. But you miss my point.


AVSN is another Front group in the same league that I'd just like to quickly mention.
Ah, actually, you are WAY off on this one, given the involvement of the bolivarian circles, the CPA, the communist league, the ACFS, CLASS, and a large number of independent activists. Stop trying to wage a sectarian battle you know nothing about.



semi-maoist front group tactics
ROTFL. Go get your head fixed, then try that one again.



Oh and I'd like to suggest that perhaps now even SALLI is just a front group for the DSP
You wouldn't be the first to suggest it, and likewise, you wouldn't be the first to be wrong. Very wrong.


The DSP\SALLI tactic of watering down their slogans and politics to try and attract the masses to them is ridiculous.
Of course, so the bolsheviks calling for "bread, peace, land" was also ridiculous?


Let's just stop and think for a second, what if 'Medicare not Warfare' did actually attract masses of workers to joining DSP\SALLI. What would DSP\SALLI do then? Lock them all in a room and make them learn the Communist Manifesto by rote? Kind of try and spring revolutionary socialism on them now that they've got their ear? This is a really absurd notion. The way to win the masses to socialism is not to hide your politics, try and win them with watered down slogans and then once you deem them ready, spring your 'real' politics on them. The way to win the masses of workers to Socialism is to combine REAL socialist political lines and explanations, with concrete action, just like the SP does with it's position on Yarra council, and in the many other campaigns it runs or is involved with.
You REALLY have no idea what we do, do you?

This exposes the Stalinist policy of the 'Popular Front' that the DSP\SALLI clings too, as opposed to a United Front method the the SP employs.
There were three terms up there you clearly don't understand:
stalinism
united front
popular front.

Get a decent marxist glossary, read it, and get back to me.



Don't lecuter anyone on what a 'mass movement' is you member-of-a-petty-reformist-softstalinist-bureaucratic party.
See above point. Also, a word of warning. If you want people to take you seriously, don't go throwing around contradictory left-wing insults for the sake of being rude or trying to show faux left credentials.



You have no understanind of the SP. I would point out that your figures on our membership are wrong, but not by a qualitative ammount. But thats ok because I have more damning points to make. First of all, our membership figure is growing and not falling (As the SALLI figure is), also, I would point out, despite the fact SALLI has poored way more money into elections than us, they have had no results in any way measurable to ours. Thirdly, unless your willing to name names on leaders of Unions it doesn't mean jack. You could have the fucking leader of the biggest union in the country in SALLI and it wouldn't mean jack because he's a right wing anti-gay, anti-women catholic mafia figure who uses his union to dominate the right wing ALP. The fact is alot of so called Union-leaders in australia completly sell out their class, as PT pointed out. The SP also has many Union figures in it's ranks, the difference is, our Union members are wholely and solely left-wing unionists worth their weight in gold to the working class.
Following on from this the SP *IS* far more working class than the SALLI or DSP. This is because of our membership, and our politics.
Do some reasearch on us, maybe you'd find that if it wasn't so fucking embarrasing for you, you'd drop straight out of the DSP and join the SP in an instant.

Anyway, enjoy your navel-gazing and rhetorical-masturbation as a member of the DSP\SALLI.
Quite frankly, the ranting idiocy, scant regards for facts, and stark sectarianism in the above post ought to make anyone think twice before taking anything you have to say seriously.
Take a chill-pill, get off the computer and do some work, and then find out what life looks like outside of your head.

[chebol]

apathy maybe wrote:


Honestly though, I find Socialist Alliance policies and politics to be just slightly better then the Greens. Reformist. I don't hate Socialist Alliance, and I feel slightly happy when I hear they get votes, but for the same reason as for the same feeling when I hear about Green successes. It shows that at least some people are moving left.

Socialist Alliance is not a revolutionary organisation (unlike, say, the DSP, SP, etc), but it does not reject revolution either. SA policies are consciously "transitional demands" (a la Trotsky), or, if you prefer "revolutionary reforms" (a la Stuart Holland). More the former than latter, btw.
And while left votes don't count for anything unless they can be turned into a movement, it is still a useful indicator. The task the SA sets itself is indeed to try to turn those votes into active socialists.


As for Socialist Alliance tactics? I find them useless for any revolutionary purpose.
That just shows we have different ideas over tactics, and how to build a revolution. Hardly surprising.



I've participated in more then one protest run by Socialist Alliance (or Resistance, whatever). 30 people at the most, mostly 10 or 15.
Must have gone to the wrong rallies then. Ever hear of Books Not Bombs? And aren't you contradicting PT and SpikeyRed a wee bit here?



(Most of my experience with SA was in Hobart. Now onto bigger events.)
Ah. Ok. Fair enough. Hobart is a bit small. Mind you, you must have missed the recent 200-strong anti-pulpmill rally we organised down that-a-way.

[chebol]

Property Tea is Theft wrote:

I'd beg to differ.
Not to mention that SP's politics are far better than that of SAlli.
And so what if you have members in the Trade Union movement?
The Trade Union movement is at an all time low, because of the bureaucratic nature of Unions in Australia.
There are few good unions here, exceptions being the MUA, FFU, CFMEU, AWU (not so bad), and a few others.
Most of them, SDA, etc. are fucking rubbish.
I don't see what you have to be proud of in this sense.
No, you don't see, because you have your sectarian blinkers on and are chasing straw-men.


And I'm also curious, despite your numbers, you don't seem to be doing much outside of activist ghettos, like Newtown.
Enlighten me.
Western Sydney, Easern Sydney, Blue Mountains, Orange, Armidale, Taree, Lismore, Wollongong, Newcastle, Gold Coast, Brisbane, Cairns, Geelong, Melbourne, Perth, Fremantle, Perth Hills, Adelaide, Hobart, etc etc etc. You ever get there much?



Union Solidarity I have out right respect for.
But Union Solidarity is much more radical, and openly radical at that, than SAlli.
And who do you think helped set up and support Union Solidarity?



For clarity, it's not the members I necessarily have an issue with, but the organization, and what it does.
Fair enough, if still wrong. My point about your view of politics stands.

[Hiero]

Bingo! Your tactics! Not you. Not your politics. Your decision to do stupid things at rallies that selfishly put other people in danger, and undermined the ability of the rally to get its message - against the G20 and what it stands for - across. Instead, the media gets to talk about violent protesters, vandals, hooligans, 'anarchists', etc, and gets to avoid dealing with the politics of the day.



I agree. At the APEC protest I saw alot of families there, mothers with prams. If people start doing stupid shit like getting violent, you put these people at risk, and also keep them at home for future protests. We need these people there so we don't look like a bunch of loonies, we need to show that our opinions are the communities opinions.

[Bilan]

Property Tea is Theft wrote:
Western Sydney, Easern Sydney, Blue Mountains, Orange, Armidale, Taree, Lismore, Wollongong, Newcastle, Gold Coast, Brisbane, Cairns, Geelong, Melbourne, Perth, Fremantle, Perth Hills, Adelaide, Hobart, etc etc etc. You ever get there much?I know for a fact that these 'cells', are relatively small - for example, Newcastle has a minature membership -- a friend of mine joined (not even understanding what socialism was, mind you) and was one of the key members.
And are your numbers not dwindling in all of these places, anyway?



And who do you think helped set up and support Union Solidarity?
Alot of people.



Fair enough, if still wrong. My point about your view of politics stands.No, it doesn't.


The decision on the day to march up Park street was not a "DSP" decision, it was a decision of everyone in the rally, except for a small part of the far left, much of which had got to Sydney one day before and wanted to "act tough" (call it what you will, but that is what your tactic amounted to). But I'm clearly wasting my time explaining what was happening to you, as you have a set-piece formula for how you think it "should have been" (always more comfy that "how-it-actually-was"). Just remember that a rally is more than you and your comrades, or the organised, class-conscious left.

I know this for a fact is not true.
The fact that this lost the vote at the final rally organizing meeting made this very evident.
To deny this is just being dishonest.

I also have to ask: what is your response to people being turned away from revolutionary politics because of the Socialist Alliance?
I know more than 5 people (which seems relativley small, but ask any revolutionary outside of the DSP-SAlli arena and you'll find its not uncommon) that's been totally but off revolutionary politics by the Socialist Alliance.

[Bilan]

I agree. At the APEC protest I saw alot of families there, mothers with prams. If people start doing stupid shit like getting violent, you put these people at risk, and also keep them at home for future protests. We need these people there so we don't look like a bunch of loonies, we need to show that our opinions are the communities opinions.

Oh, you mean unlike the danger we're continually getting ourselves into because of the inability of revolutionary groups to actively confront the actions of the state, and the ruling class in Australia?
The increased militarization of the police, with little actual challenge from bourgeois socialist groups, and so on (apart from their crappy articles which no one reads); the widening wealth gap; and the draconian changes to our society.

You know, I don't think thats really the most important issue here.

[KC]

Oh, you mean unlike the danger we're continually getting ourselves into because of the inability of revolutionary groups to actively confront the actions of the state, and the ruling class in Australia?
The increased militarization of the police, with little actual challenge from bourgeois socialist groups, and so on (apart from their crappy articles which no one reads); the widening wealth gap; and the draconian changes to our society.

You know, I don't think thats really the most important issue here.

People learn through experience. If they're not experiencing it themselves (by not going to a rally because you lot are more intent on fighting police than getting people out and organizing them), then they are not going to develop. If they don't develop consciousness, then there will be no "resistance".

[apathy maybe]

"Ah. Ok. Fair enough. Hobart is a bit small. Mind you, you must have missed the recent 200-strong anti-pulpmill rally we organised down that-a-way."

I did, I left Hobart about half-way through 2006. At that time there were about four 'key' members (Alex and Kamala having been transferred to Sydney (by the DSP?), and another person from Brisbane being transferred down to Hobart) (I'm still on the mailing list, and I do keep seeing at least two of the same names as well...). They organised everything, and basically ran the show. There were a couple of other hangers on, and the usual suspects for social events.

I'm glad you admit though that SA is not a revolutionary organisation as such, because if it was meant to be ...

[chebol]

Sorry, the pulp mill rally was more like 500. My mind's been a bit distracted with this Canberra convergence bizo. Still, it was certainly one of the bigger things seen down there for a while. The sense i get is that Hobart's a kind of quiet place.

And yeah, Alex and Kamala (both DSP) transfered to Sydney a couple of years ago.


With regards to the Socialist Alliance, we have NEVER claimed that is was revolutionary. This is important, as trying to judge it by revolutionary standards (such as you should judge the DSP, SP, SAlt, Solidarity, etc) misses the point of what the Alliance was set up to do - unite the 'left', not just the 'revolutionary left'.

Consequently, it involves both revolutionaries (both in and outside the DSP and Resistance, the two main affiliates - and there ARE differences here too) and non-revolutionaries, some (very few) of whom DO identify as reformists. Most "non-revolutionaries" are not consciously or deliberately so either, but probably haven't given the greatest deal of though to the question - they're too busy either working and/ or organising resistance to the bullshit of the Lib-Lab capitalist love-in.

There are a number of features and policies which are similar to the Greens, which isn't SO surprising given that the DSP helped to set up the Greens, before being kicked out for organising as socialists. Literally. Nothing more.

But the SA - unlike the Greens - is explicitly anti-capitalist, and socialist. It is also open to the affiliation of revolutionary, socialist, communist, left-reformist, union, left enviro, etc groups, who agree with it's (admittedly - and deliberately - limited politics). Our aim is to build a broad left party, full of revolutionaries, reformists, and those unclear, and it's politics can, will and do sharpen in the struggle. It's a slightly more effective and rational approach than simply declaring your politics to the world and demanding that it stand to attention, which some revolutionary groups do. Effective, that is, if you can pull it off, which is always the test.

It's also not so different from what SpikeyRed and SP are talking about, except that we are, at least, trying to get the show on the road. A great deal of the existing structures and strictures are open for debate and rearrangement if there's a genuine interest from other groups (those that left, those that refused to join, those who weren't even interested at the time, etc). The problem with the SP - who the DSP entered unfruitful 'unity discussions' (in a very broad sense) with in the nineties - is that they like ot bang on about the "new workers' party", but they really mean themselves.

I don't intend right now to convince you of the value of SA, I'm just trying to clarify things a little. And obviously the whole process is still in diapers as far as where we want to take it. Which means teething problems and so on.

For what it's worth, and to clarify in case anyone wants to create new straw-men, I am a member of the DSP, which is a revolutionary marxist and leninist (in the healthy sense - ie anti-stalinist, 'post-trotskyist') organisation, and an affiliate of the Socialist Alliance.

And if anyone in Oz can give me a good explanation of what the fuck that idiotic term "soft-Stalinist" means, and how it applies to the DSP, I owe them a beer.

[Bilan]

People learn through experience. If they're not experiencing it themselves (by not going to a rally because you lot are more intent on fighting police than getting people out and organizing them), then they are not going to develop. If they don't develop consciousness, then there will be no "resistance".

True, through practice comes education.
But, it is necessary for us to challenge the rule, and the violent repression of the police at these rallies.
Allowing ourselves to be beaten, to be harrassed, to be pushed around by the pigs to maintain a moral high ground, and to recruit people is foolish, and dangerous - not to mention allowing the pigs to violate our bodies to maintain this facade!

Direct, pointless confrontation is equally dangerous.

[Bilan]

And if anyone in Oz can give me a good explanation of what the fuck that idiotic term "soft-Stalinist" means, and how it applies to the DSP, I owe them a beer.

Haha, I saw this post and thought there was going to be mass hostility.

Can't we just have a beer anyway?

[chebol]

Sure. You coming to Canberra?

[Bilan]

Ah, can't. I really wanted to, as well. :(