Ho Chi Minh: opinions

[Die Neue Zeit]

Who was the historical Ho Chi Minh? Communist revolutionary (by helping to form the French Communist Party)? National-democratic revolutionary (his anti-colonial activities against the French and his national-liberation activities against the US)? Stalinist executioner of sectarian Trotskyists (http://www.workersliberty.org/node/4774) (warning: factual article with a Trotskyist bias)?

[I stated my opinion here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1064969&postcount=25).]

[Random Precision]

Stalinist executioner of sectarian Trotskyists (http://www.workersliberty.org/node/4774) (warning: Trotskyist article)?

I'm not sure why you have to warn people against an article from a Trotskyist source. What makes you think our claims aren't well supported?

In any case, the LCI was not "sectarian" by any stretch of the imagination. They fought for an independent, worker and peasant controlled Vietnam for many years while making common cause with the Stalinists. Vietnam was the one place in Asia besides Sri Lanka where Trotskyism gained a mass following. The devotion to Minh's "deformed workers state" following what he did to our comrades should be a source of outright embarrassment for all orthotrot organizations who held that line.

Here's a more scholarly and documented article, that doesn't feel the need to take jabs at fellow Trots:

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ I do think your claim of massacre is well supported, but I also think that the Vietnamese Trotskyists were rather sectarian (see that very article of yours on "Vietnamese Trotskyism 1937-1939" and the two Trotskyist groups mentioned). For the record, and as stated in a Learning thread link above, I do NOT think that Ho Chi Minh was a Stalinist (because of his overemphasis on the peasantry, like Mao), but he wasn't a Maoist, either (reckless "Social-Revolutionary"-ism with Chinese characteristics).

[Ismail]

I do NOT think that Ho Chi Minh was a Stalinist (because of his overemphasis on the peasantry),He wasn't a Leninist under that definition either, and certainly not a Trot.

Ho Chi Minh and Kim Il Sung (to a lesser extent) were red-tinted nationalists. I'm unaware of any serious attempts at achieving a socialist economy in Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh however was progressive, since he was anti-colonialist.

[Random Precision]

^^^ I do think your claim of massacre is well supported, but I also think that the Vietnamese Trotskyists were rather sectarian (see that article of yours on "Vietnamese Trotskyism 1937-1939).

Surely having two groups in one country has nothing on today's sectarianism, however.


For the record, and as stated in a Learning thread link above, I do NOT think that Ho Chi Minh was a Stalinist (because of his overemphasis on the peasantry), but he wasn't a Maoist, either (reckless "Social-Revolutionary"-ism with Chinese characteristics).

Well, it depends how you define "Stalinism". Most Trotskyists will accept the idea that a nascent bureaucratic Stalinist ruling party will adopt whatever ideas are necessary for its perceived benefit, just as the one already ruling in the USSR was doing. This is why we can call Mao a Stalinist even though he developed many of his own ideas on the war of national liberation and such.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Well, it wasn't as bad, but the fact that the two groups existed separately is a testament to the typical Trotskyist group's placement of its own organization above that of revolutionary politics. :(

Stalinism is a specific phenomenon of bureaucratic rule, and is usually posed as an alternative to the revolutionary-democratic political superstructure of a nascent state-capitalist state (http://www.revleft.com/vb/lenin-stalin-and-t66656/index.html).

[SamiBTX]

I admire Ho Chi Minh. He wasn't a Maoist or Stalinist, (obviouslly!).
I believe he was an honest person, perhaps a populist & someone who loved his country.

In the 60s my mother breifly had a cat named Ho Chi Minh,
she wasn't a red, but she just 'liked' Ho Chi Minh.
I would have loved to known what people thought when
she stood outside her door to call him.:lol:

[Vendetta]

I've never actually heard of Ho Chi Minh's political positions, outside of (US) classroom lectrues...the closest I'd be able to say with any certainty is a semi-commie nationalist? Maybe?

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

like most people ive never heard anything of Ho Chi Minh's political opinions.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Nor of James Connolly's (an Irish Marxist whom Lenin admired a lot) :(

[RedStarOverChina]

The tragedy is that Ho Chi Minh, for all his accomplishments in France (even helping to form the French Communist Party), wasn't the leader of the Chinese revolution, let alone a greater pan-Oriental revolution (spanning China, Vietnam, the Koreas, etc.). :(

Unfortunately your understanding on him limited.

Ho Chi Minh could not have been a "leader of the Chinese revolution" or a "pan-Oriental revolution" because he was a nationalist instead of communist...A great anti-colonialist revolutionary, no doubt. But not a communist. He dreamed of a strong, independent Vietnamese Republic, not a communist society.

He himself said that he was inspired by nationalism, not communism. He was from the beginning to the end, motivated by resentment against what he perceives as Vietnam's enemies, especially France and China. ("Better to be France's cow dung for 100 years than to be China's cow dung for 1,000 years")

He had a great relationship with the Chinese Communist Party, no doubt...But that's because Vietnam was in the middle of an anti-colonial war and support from China was essential to win it. The conflict between China and Vietnam was destined to happen when the war ends.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I can't find the "cow dung" quote, though.

As for the conflict with China, wasn't that provoked by the Chinese?

Anyhow, I'm not sure my understanding is as limited as you think, considering my opinion on the nature of the Chinese "Social Revolution" (one of the links in my very first post).



P.S. - The irony in your sig is that, in spite of Zhou's attempt at wittiness, both he and Khrushchev didn't come from a working-class background. ;)

[RedStarOverChina]

As for the conflict with China, wasn't that provoked by the Chinese?I don't know. Both side claim the other did it. Maybe they were both guilty.

I was merely arguing that it was bond to happen regardless who provoked it. China had border disputes with Vietnam and Vietnam was under constant military and political pressure from various Chinese dynasties for more than 2,500 years...Then a nationalist republic gets established in Vietnam.

What did you expect was going to happen?

[RedStarOverChina]

P.S. - The irony in your sig is that, in spite of Zhou's attempt at wittiness, both he and Khrushchev didn't come from a working-class background. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/wink.gif

I think you misunderstood it. I know Zhou didn't come from a working class background, and so did he. He was remarking on the fact that he betrayed his privileged class to fight in the struggle of the working class. So did Engels.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Ho Chi Minh was one of the greatest revolutionaries ever. His leadership was responsible for the mass defeat of two imperialist aggressors and the building of a socialist state in Vietnam which acted as a model for other revolutionaries to follow. And Ho Chi Minh was more than a nationalist. He wrote about Leninism and under his leadership a socialist state was built

[OneBrickOneVoice]

Khrushchev did come from a working class background. There is a famous quote from him where he said something like I've worked in mills, factories and mines and everywhere I've worked there has been one thing in common, i'm just exploited as much as humanly possible. That's why I became a communist

[Cryotank Screams]

Ho Chi Minh was one of the greatest revolutionaries ever.

A bourgeois revolutionary.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

A bourgeois revolutionary.

no he fought against the bourgeois. How the fuck was ho chi minh part of the capitalist ruling class. He didn't exploit anyone, he organized resistance to free his country from imperialism